IRC log of au on 2009-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:29:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #au
13:29:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:29:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:29:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #au
13:29:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be AUWG
13:29:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_AUWG(F2F)8:30AM already started
13:29:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
13:29:08 [trackbot]
Date: 16 June 2009
13:29:30 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
13:29:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.703.889.aaaa, AnnM
13:29:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, ReedShaff, jeanne, jtrevir, AnnM, trackbot
13:29:35 [Jan]
Jan has joined #au
13:29:49 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is really Adobe
13:29:49 [Zakim]
+Adobe; got it
13:29:58 [Jan]
scribe: Jan
13:30:24 [Sueann]
Sueann has joined #au
13:30:53 [jeanne]
zakim, Adobe has Jan_Richards, Greg_Pisocky, Reed_Shaffner, Jutta_Treviranus, Sueann_Nichols, Jeanne_Spellman
13:30:53 [Zakim]
+Jan_Richards, Greg_Pisocky, Reed_Shaffner, Jutta_Treviranus, Sueann_Nichols, Jeanne_Spellman; got it
13:31:08 [jeanne]
regrets+ Tim_Boland
13:31:19 [jeanne]
regrets+ Andrew_Ronksley
13:31:38 [jeanne]
Present++Jan_Richards, Greg_Pisocky, Reed_Shaffner, Jutta_Treviranus, Sueann_Nichols, Jeanne_Spellman
13:31:48 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
13:31:53 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:31:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
13:33:15 [jeanne]
present+ Ann_McMeekin
13:34:14 [jeanne]
chair: Jan, Jutta
13:34:22 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
13:35:43 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:35:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
13:36:24 [jeanne]
topic: brainstorming contacts for reviewers, implementors, and evaluators
13:38:50 [ARonksley]
ARonksley has joined #au
13:40:17 [Zakim]
13:40:55 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P9 is really ARonksley
13:40:55 [Zakim]
+ARonksley; got it
13:41:05 [jeanne]
present+ Andrew_Ronksley
13:46:40 [Greg]
Greg has joined #au
13:48:44 [jeanne]
13:49:06 [jeanne]
topic: New proposals - B.1.1
13:50:56 [jeanne]
B.1.1.3 Conforming Alternate Technology: If a Web content technology
13:50:56 [jeanne]
does not create accessible Web content (e.g. a bar chart created in a
13:50:56 [jeanne]
PNG image file), then an conforming alternate technology (e.g. a date
13:50:56 [jeanne]
table in HTML) will be available to the author(s) prior to publishing.
13:50:56 [jeanne]
(Level AAA)
13:51:29 [jeanne]
JT: Why should it be level AAA? This is more important than a AAA.
13:52:08 [jeanne]
... a company that is seeking ATAG compliance, should be willing to make the effort to insure that their content is accessible
13:53:56 [Greg]
Reed: I think the way this is worded implies this is another special thing rather than an acceptable alternative
13:54:17 [jeanne]
B.2.1.4 Guide Accessible Alternatives: If Web content is created or
13:54:17 [jeanne]
integrated that is not accessible, (e.g. a bar chart created in a PNG
13:54:17 [jeanne]
image file), the author(s) will be guided to create or integrate a
13:54:17 [jeanne]
conforming alternate technology (e.g. a date table in HTML) prior to
13:54:17 [jeanne]
publishing. (Level AAA)
13:54:37 [jeanne]
13:57:24 [Jan]
Jan has joined #au
13:57:57 [Jan]
JT: We need to weigh are approach to authoring accessibly from the start
13:58:15 [Jan]
JT: We need to make sure that accessible technology is used
13:58:42 [Jan]
GP: I have concerns with expectation that one tool doing everything
13:58:56 [Jan]
JT: No recognizes that one tool can't can't do everything
13:59:26 [Jan]
JT: Just have to include something in bundle that allows it
13:59:55 [Jan]
RS: But end of the road is the point...maybe someone will make a great scanner+repair
14:00:03 [Jan]
JT: But means lots of retrofit
14:00:12 [Jan]
RS: But ex?
14:00:24 [Jan]
JT: Retrofitting is usally redoing things
14:00:40 [Jan]
GP: We have to handle multiple authoring styles
14:00:57 [Jan]
JT: Yes there is a whole range of things
14:01:19 [Jan]
JT: We are encouraging thinking from beginning PLUS ability to hndle accessiblity at the end
14:01:31 [Jan]
JS: ARIA example...
14:01:52 [Jan]
JS: If putting in nav tree structure put in ARIA from early in the process
14:04:56 [Sueann]
Jutta: make it possible for authors to author accessibly from the start
14:05:48 [Sueann]
GP: give me products that support the features to get to an accessible solution, if controls and objects can't support accessible solution you wouldn't what that
14:06:27 [Sueann]
RS: What is an automatic prompt?
14:08:43 [Sueann]
Reviewing Jean's email
14:10:49 [Sueann]
RS: disagreement is this to guide accessible content or from the outset.
14:11:14 [Sueann]
Jutta: it should be possible to make an accessible outcome from the outset
14:12:02 [Sueann]
Jan: sees this as being part of the conformance statement
14:12:16 [Sueann]
Jan: Should blow away the old b.1
14:13:08 [Sueann]
Jan: we should have support for tools that enable accessibility from the outset
14:14:04 [Sueann]
RS: in large organizations the work flow can cause problems having focus on accessibility
14:14:36 [jeanne]\
14:14:36 [Sueann]
Jan: update to the conformance claim
14:15:21 [Sueann]
14:18:47 [Sueann]
GP accessibility may not happen until all of the parts (images) are brought together
14:19:44 [Sueann]
Jutta: there are multiple cases. There are cases when accessibility needs to be there from the start, in other cases it can be added in at the end
14:21:32 [Sueann]
GP: it's all a moment in time when accessibility should happen
14:23:29 [Sueann]
Jan: Jan's proposal is about the claim.
14:23:34 [Sueann]
versus the guide.
14:24:45 [Sueann]
JS: not all of the tools need to be atag compliant versus Jan: because part A is in there, the tools do need to meet Atag
14:25:56 [Sueann]
RS what would the claim look like?
14:36:41 [Sueann]
Jan there is no objective review of technologies
14:48:15 [Sueann]
RS: having problem trying to figure out the claim to atag
14:48:38 [Sueann]
Jan: try and cut it down and make a claim on a scenario
14:49:36 [Sueann]
Jan: That's what WCAG 2.0 does
15:13:07 [Sueann]
Jean: bundles should be for checking and repair.
15:14:20 [Sueann]
Jutta: compound issues.
15:20:05 [Sueann]
RS: why does b.1 not produce Atag
15:20:21 [Sueann]
why does b.1 not just state output meet atag
15:20:41 [Sueann]
Jutta: we don't say that because there is the issue of the author.
15:21:09 [Greg]
JT If you make or incorporate content make sure that is is possible to create accessible output using that content
15:21:43 [Greg]
JT You want to increase the liklihood that any author is producing accessible output with it
15:22:07 [ReedShaff]
ReedShaff has joined #au
15:22:59 [Greg]
JT: It has to be possible. It has to be just as easy at is to make it accessible as it is to make it inaccessible
15:24:14 [Greg]
JR: It would be nice to go into B and do the triage we discussed yesterday
15:24:28 [Greg]
JR: B.1.1 we will need to return to
15:24:49 [jtrevir]
JT: ATAG is unlike WCAG in that we have the wildcard of the author. The developer cannot and should not, control what the author produces. The author has free choice.
15:25:03 [jtrevir]
Therefore was we want to do in B1 is:
15:25:42 [jtrevir]
Make sure that when the authoring tool has full control over the content (automatic processes) it is accessible and meets WCAG 2.0
15:26:43 [Greg]
JR: B.1.2 Ensure that the authoring tool preserves the accessibility information
15:26:54 [jtrevir]
For all else we want to make it possible and easy for the author to produce accessible content. We want to encourage them and guide them in making accessible content. It should be as easy if not easier to make accessible content as it is to create inaccessible content
15:27:40 [jtrevir]
And we want to support them in checking that their content is accessible and then repair it if it isn't.
15:29:24 [jtrevir]
We want accessible authoring to be naturally integrated, part of the workflow, where appropriate and possible from the beginning of the process rather than as a retrofit.
15:31:05 [Greg]
B.1.2.2 Medium
15:34:59 [Greg]
RS: Perhaps we should define automatically
15:35:55 [Greg]
JR: Triage Okay. No problem here B.1.3
15:36:19 [Greg]
JR: Moving on, B.2.1 Guide Authors to create accessible content
15:36:29 [Greg]
JR: Triage High
15:37:01 [Greg]
JR: B.2.2 Assist Authors in checking for accessiblity problems. Lots of comments
15:43:13 [Greg]
JR: B.2.2 Triage High
15:44:49 [Greg]
JR: B.2.3 Repair Accessibility (AAA)
15:47:45 [Greg]
JR: B.2.3 Triage None
15:48:02 [Greg]
Action: JR to clarify repair assistance language
15:48:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-166 - Clarify repair assistance language [on Jan Richards - due 2009-06-23].
15:48:27 [jeanne]
action: JR to clarify repair assistance in B.2.3
15:48:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-167 - Clarify repair assistance in B.2.3 [on Jan Richards - due 2009-06-23].
15:49:54 [Greg]
Topic B.2.4 Assist authors with managing alternative content for non-text content
15:57:24 [Greg]
B.2.4 Triage None
15:58:20 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.2.5 Assist authors with accessible templates and other pre-authored content
16:00:27 [Greg]
B.2.5 Triage Medium
16:00:55 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.3.1 Ensure that accessible authoring actions are given prominence
16:01:09 [Greg]
B.3.1 Triage None
16:01:43 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.3.2 Ensure that sequential authoring processes integrate accessible authoring practices
16:05:13 [Greg]
RS: This is another one where I am concerned we are forcing design contraints on people. Who says it has to come at the end for instance?
16:14:19 [Greg]
B.3.2 Triage HIGH
16:15:26 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.3.3 Ensure that features of the authoring tool supporting the production of accessible content are available
16:15:59 [Greg]
B.3.3 Triage NONE
16:20:32 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.3.4 Ensure that features of the authoring tool supporting the production of accessible content are documented
16:22:15 [Greg]
B.3.4 Triage None
16:22:35 [Greg]
Topic Guideline B.3.5 Ensure that any authoring practices demonstrated in documentation are accessible.
16:23:45 [Greg]
RS: What do we mean by documentation? Where is it coming from?
16:24:42 [Greg]
JT: One of the AODA legislation requirements was to put a proviso over the things you have control over
16:26:12 [Greg]
SN: It's like saying any example for any piece of code has to be written accessibly
16:26:35 [Greg]
RS: Then I would feel comfortable making that single A (if you take out any)
16:36:31 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
16:38:04 [jeanne]
Breaking for lunch. Be back in 30 minutes at 1:10 EDT
16:39:06 [Zakim]
16:49:22 [ARonksley_]
ARonksley_ has joined #au
16:55:14 [ARonksley_]
ARonksley_ has joined #au
16:56:40 [ARonksley__]
ARonksley__ has joined #au
17:01:06 [Zakim]
17:01:40 [Zakim]
17:01:44 [ARonksley_]
ARonksley_ has joined #au
17:12:52 [ARonksley_]
ARonksley_ has joined #au
17:13:43 [ReedShaff]
set scribe:ReedShaff
17:14:27 [ReedShaff]
Discussing B3.2 or and B3.1 need to get accessibility into the the core of the authoring process
17:14:49 [ReedShaff]
JT: The workflow part was integrated, not any point, it is a habitual part of the process in general
17:14:57 [Zakim]
+ +2
17:14:58 [ReedShaff]
JR: ok maybe they aren't the saem
17:15:07 [ReedShaff]
JR: Starting with B2.1
17:30:55 [Greg]
RS and JR: How do we deal with issues involving the aggregating of content
17:32:23 [Greg]
RS: For example, my app may include a video from another source that isn't captioned and which my tool can't add captions
17:46:21 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: how does this change anything?
17:46:36 [ReedShaff]
JR: conforming alternate is a way of meeting WCAG
17:49:01 [ReedShaff]
JR: maybe we add something to be more explicit
17:57:02 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: how can we check for all of these things people are inserting?
17:57:16 [ReedShaff]
Greg: this is incredibly complex logic
17:58:03 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: informing the user versus informing the purchaser
17:58:17 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: you don't want to, the tools aren't tutorials
17:58:26 [ReedShaff]
JR: they might include some guidance along the way
18:32:44 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: it has nothign to do with UI
18:32:47 [ReedShaff]
Greg: or a prompt
18:33:57 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: set accessible properties for all objects that the tool can edit
18:36:43 [ReedShaff]
JT: I want to do it in the middle of doing my workflow
18:36:51 [ReedShaff]
Greg: you can always pretend your done
18:37:05 [ReedShaff]
JT: then I as an author have to fool the tool
18:37:21 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: AA I can query them at anytime
18:37:35 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: real time checking is triple AAA
18:38:26 [ReedShaff]
Greg: I as an author have a way of setting those propertieis
18:38:47 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: you can't check anything until it meets AA criteria, it has been queried and has no sev1 or 2 issues
18:39:19 [ReedShaff]
AAA: cannot publish until queried, no anwers, and automatic checking
18:39:49 [ReedShaff]
JR: other two might be relevant to enterprise tools only
18:40:08 [ReedShaff]
Greg: no that was just because it was in practice, basically change the wording
18:40:46 [ReedShaff]
Sueann: run a report, where are my failures?
18:42:23 [ReedShaff]
JT: if we go back to what we set for A, it's possible as an author, i can do it
18:42:37 [ReedShaff]
JT: I may not be knowledgable the tools guides me, makes it more likely
20:20:12 [ReedShaff]
action Jutta: b1.1 rational
20:20:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-168 - B1.1 rational [on Jutta Treviranus - due 2009-06-23].
20:29:59 [Zakim]
- +2
20:36:26 [Zakim]
20:46:08 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:46:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
20:46:38 [Zakim]
20:51:05 [Zakim]
20:52:21 [Zakim]
20:52:22 [Zakim]
WAI_AUWG(F2F)8:30AM has ended
20:52:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.703.889.aaaa, AnnM, Jan_Richards, Greg_Pisocky, Reed_Shaffner, Jutta_Treviranus, Sueann_Nichols, Jeanne_Spellman, ARonksley, +2
20:58:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #au
21:26:50 [ARonksley]
ARonksley has left #au