IRC log of svg on 2009-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

04:15:35 [shepazu]

http://jezebel.com/5286179/happy-hump-day

13:55:20 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

13:55:20 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc

13:55:22 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:55:22 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #svg

13:55:24 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

13:55:24 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

13:55:25 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

13:55:25 [trackbot]

Date: 11 June 2009

13:55:33 [heycam]

Chair: Erik

13:55:53 [ed]

scribeNick: ed

13:56:04 [ed]

Topic: ACTION-2523

13:56:10 [ed]

ACTION-2523?

13:56:10 [trackbot]

ACTION-2523 -- Cameron McCormack to add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it -- due 2009-04-27 -- OPEN

13:56:10 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2523

13:56:31 [ed]

CM: in the context of loosening the content model of element with child element orderings

13:56:57 [ed]

...then I got this action to make it so that the content model allows title anywhere, but that if it's not the first child elm then it doesn't need to render it

13:57:02 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #svg

13:57:04 [ed]

...but I don't like this option

13:57:34 [ed]

...I'd rather if you are going to render it then it has to be the first child

13:57:41 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

13:57:41 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc#T13-57-41

13:57:50 [ed]

...either that or make the first title element whereever it is rendered

13:58:09 [ChrisL]

zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home

13:58:09 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisL

13:58:18 [ed]

JW: too much overhead with rendering titles that aren't first child

13:59:03 [ed]

DS: could handle it internally with finding the title during parsing, then link it to the parent element

13:59:26 [ed]

CM: happy to require it to be the first child

13:59:43 [ed]

...in tiny the restriction was loosened to sya that it can be anywhere

13:59:46 [ed]

DS: i prefer that

14:00:03 [ed]

CL: it's vague as to what it can do with the title

14:00:10 [ed]

...tooltip or whatever

14:00:30 [ed]

DS: UA:s could optionally ignore the title if it's not the first element

14:00:54 [ed]

...I would like ppl to use title, and to tell UAs how to deal with title

14:01:06 [ed]

CL: should put it as authoring advice then

14:01:17 [ed]

...should put it as first child

14:02:04 [ed]

...the vague thing caused people to have very short title, beause some UAs do show it as tooltips

14:02:18 [ed]

(discussion on title and tooltip elements)

14:02:47 [ed]

DS: xlink:title is sometimes used too

14:03:14 [ed]

CM: if you put it as a first child you might still not get it as a tooltip

14:03:30 [ed]

CL: CGM has reliable tooltip behavior

14:05:11 [ed]

(discussion on adding wikipage for tooltip)

14:05:37 [ed]

DS: the advice we give for accessibility and tooltips isn't adequate

14:06:07 [ChrisL]

which is why we were going to add an explicity tooltip element in 1.2F, because that was an area where CGM has functionality that we don't

14:10:29 [ed]

DS: don't like the feature being optional

14:10:33 [ChrisL]

this relates to ACTION-2523

14:10:34 [ed]

...want to know that I have tooltips

14:11:42 [ed]

...have a library that makes js tooltips, but when UAs to native tooltips it overlaps the jstooltip

14:12:04 [ed]

...roles have been discussed in this context

14:12:41 [ed]

(discussion on role=tooltip and ARIA)

14:13:04 [ed]

CM: probably role is different from what you want

14:13:07 [ed]

DS: disagree

14:13:22 [ed]

CL: right, you don't know if it's going to appear or not

14:13:51 [ChrisL]

but you could use title[role=tooltip] display: none to switch off tooltips

14:13:53 [ed]

CM: the AT vendors are going to interpret role differently from what you mean

14:14:32 [ed]

DS: if we make something new and say type="tooltip" authors will use that

14:14:49 [ed]

...as far as the author is concerned they're done, but the AT won't know that

14:14:59 [ed]

...one more thing the AT has to do

14:15:24 [ed]

...even text elements and other things are not accessible in current ATs

14:15:31 [ed]

...in svg

14:17:23 [ChrisL]

quote "Obviously there’s nothing you can do to stop the default behaviour of standards compliant browsers regarding rendering of title attributes, so when leaving your cursor on my method for too long, the default browser behaviour will overlay the generated content CSS effect"

14:17:29 [ChrisL]

http://www.css3.info/tooltips-with-css3/

14:17:37 [ed]

JW: you should be able to disable the default behaviour

14:17:42 [ed]

...for tooltips

14:18:22 [ed]

CL: we should have either made a real tooltip, or not have had this vague language in the spec for how to use title

14:20:23 [ed]

....regarding the specific action

14:20:30 [ed]

...doesn't add anything

14:21:03 [ed]

...there's a small useful bit in the note

14:21:07 [ed]

...about the DTD

14:22:38 [ed]

CM: sometimes I've wanted a rich graphical tooltip, you can do it already, but an easier way to do it

14:23:35 [ed]

DS: we could add the tooltip element again

14:23:49 [ed]

...the role of a tooltip is different from the role of a title

14:30:20 [anthony]

ACTION-2385?

14:30:20 [trackbot]

ACTION-2385 -- Anthony Grasso to make an XSLT to change the template of the 1.1 tests to the new one -- due 2008-12-25 -- OPEN

14:30:20 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2385

14:31:38 [anthony]

Dudes, I've finished the XSLT for this action. Just need to put the finishing touches on the scrip to run it all

14:34:05 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #svg

15:57:24 [ChrisL]

http://www.oxygenxml.com/

15:58:30 [heycam]

thanks anthony

15:59:23 [heycam]

close ACTION-2523

15:59:23 [trackbot]

ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it closed

16:31:23 [heycam]

action: cameron add wording explaining how the dtd is meant to be used

16:31:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2614 - Add wording explaining how the dtd is meant to be used [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-06-18].

19:01:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

19:01:48 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc

20:09:55 [heycam]

issue-2210?

20:09:55 [trackbot]

ISSUE-2210 -- Define liveness of SVGTransform.matrix -- RAISED

20:09:55 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2210

20:47:38 [heycam]

heycam has joined #svg

21:58:10 [Zakim]

ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home

22:12:50 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #svg