IRC log of sparql on 2009-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:54:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc
13:55:38 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:55:46 [Zakim]
+ +539149aaaa
13:56:14 [JacekK]
JacekK has joined #sparql
13:56:19 [SteveH_]
SteveH_ has joined #sparql
13:56:24 [iv_an_ru]
KjetilK, I've read http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ and it's fully OK for me. Thank you.
13:56:41 [KjetilK]
iv_an_ru, great!
13:57:30 [john-l]
john-l has joined #sparql
13:57:33 [iv_an_ru]
AlexPassant, thank you too.
13:57:36 [Zakim]
+??P19
13:57:39 [bijan]
zakim, ??p19 is me
13:57:45 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
13:58:00 [Zakim]
+??P2
13:58:12 [iv_an_ru]
(and I'm sorry but I'm off today)
13:58:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.445.aabb
13:58:27 [john-l]
Zakim, aabb is me
13:58:27 [Zakim]
+john-l; got it
13:58:35 [Zakim]
+ +005aacc
13:58:44 [KjetilK]
Zakim, what is the code?
13:58:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), KjetilK
13:58:45 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #SPARQL
13:58:47 [kasei]
hmm... Zakim usually recognizes me as IPCaller on this line.
13:58:53 [Zakim]
+??P22
13:58:54 [Zakim]
+ +2
13:58:58 [SimonS]
Zakim, aacc is me
13:58:58 [Zakim]
+SimonS; got it
13:59:00 [SteveH_]
Zakim: ??P22 is [Garlik]
13:59:00 [KjetilK]
Zakim, ??P22 is me
13:59:03 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
13:59:09 [KjetilK]
SteveH_, are you sure?
13:59:12 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AxelPolleres?, bijan, ??P2, john-l, SimonS, KjetilK, +2
13:59:22 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
13:59:31 [KjetilK]
Zakim, who is talking
13:59:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is talking', KjetilK
13:59:33 [kasei]
one of the unidentified ones is me. not sure which.
13:59:34 [KjetilK]
Zakim, who is talking?
13:59:44 [Zakim]
KjetilK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 7 (7%), +2 (68%)
13:59:49 [SteveH_]
I'll hang up and try again
13:59:56 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau
14:00:02 [JacekK]
JacekK has joined #sparql
14:00:03 [pgearon]
pgearon has joined #sparql
14:00:05 [KjetilK]
Zakim, 2 is me
14:00:05 [Zakim]
sorry, KjetilK, I do not recognize a party named '2'
14:00:08 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
14:00:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.775.aaee
14:00:09 [KjetilK]
Zakim, + 2 is me
14:00:09 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+ 2 is me', KjetilK
14:00:13 [KjetilK]
Zakim, +2 is me
14:00:13 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
14:00:17 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, +2 is Kjetil
14:00:17 [Zakim]
sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named '+2'
14:00:25 [kasei]
Zakim, P2 is me
14:00:25 [Zakim]
sorry, kasei, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
14:00:26 [Zakim]
+??P41
14:00:27 [bglimm]
Zakim, bcuencagrau is bglimm
14:00:27 [SteveH_]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:00:27 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:00:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AxelPolleres?, bijan, ??P2, john-l, SimonS, KjetilK, KjetilK.a, bglimm, +1.937.775.aaee, ??P41
14:00:33 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P41 is me
14:00:33 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:00:37 [kasei]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:00:39 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
14:00:42 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:00:43 [SteveH_]
Zakim: KjetilK is [Garlik]
14:00:46 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
14:00:46 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:00:47 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:00:48 [SteveH_]
Zakim, KjetilK is [Garlik]
14:00:49 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]; got it
14:00:53 [AndyS]
zakim, mute me
14:00:54 [Zakim]
AndyS should now be muted
14:00:59 [SteveH_]
Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH_ and LukeWM
14:00:59 [Zakim]
+SteveH_, LukeWM; got it
14:01:05 [SteveH_]
np :)
14:01:05 [Zakim]
+??P45
14:01:07 [AndyS]
zakim, unmute me
14:01:07 [Zakim]
AndyS should no longer be muted
14:01:09 [JacekK]
zakim, ??P45 is me
14:01:10 [Zakim]
+JacekK; got it
14:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.863.aaff
14:01:13 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:18 [Zakim]
KjetilK.a should now be muted
14:01:26 [bglimm]
zakim, mute me
14:01:31 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:32 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:33 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:01:43 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:01:43 [pgearon]
zakim, +1.312.863.aaff is me
14:01:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AxelPolleres?, bijan, kasei (muted), john-l, SimonS, [Garlik], KjetilK.a (muted), bglimm (muted), +1.937.775.aaee, AndyS, EricP, JacekK, +1.312.863.aaff
14:01:46 [ericP]
Zakim, EricP has EricP, LeeF
14:01:48 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH_, LukeWM
14:01:50 [Zakim]
+Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:01:52 [Zakim]
+pgearon; got it
14:01:54 [Zakim]
+EricP, LeeF; got it
14:02:13 [Prateek]
Zakim, +1.937.775.aaee is Prateek
14:02:13 [Zakim]
+Prateek; got it
14:02:45 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AxelPolleres?, bijan, kasei (muted), john-l, SimonS, [Garlik], KjetilK.a (muted), bglimm (muted), Prateek, AndyS, EricP, JacekK, pgearon, Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:02:50 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #sparql
14:02:52 [Zakim]
EricP has EricP, LeeF
14:02:57 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH_, LukeWM
14:03:04 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-09
14:03:45 [JacekK]
scribe: JacekK
14:03:52 [JacekK]
scribenick: JacekK
14:04:20 [KjetilK]
Zakim, unmute me
14:04:20 [Zakim]
KjetilK.a should no longer be muted
14:04:43 [JacekK]
next scribe: Kjetil (tentatively)
14:04:48 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:04:48 [Zakim]
KjetilK.a should now be muted
14:04:50 [LeeF]
Regrets for next week for me [SemTech]
14:04:50 [pgearon]
pgearon has joined #sparql
14:04:58 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02
14:05:11 [AxelPolleres]
Proposed: approve http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02
14:05:20 [JacekK]
RESOLUTION: last minutes approved
14:05:24 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02
14:05:40 [JacekK]
topic: liaisons
14:05:43 [bijan]
Nope
14:06:01 [bijan]
The OWL Specs are going to CR (for the interested)
14:06:14 [JacekK]
ericP: nothing from xquery either
14:06:43 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: RIF's final specs will be discussed soon, otherwise nothing
14:06:55 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres congratules on OWL CR
14:07:13 [JacekK]
topic: actions
14:07:48 [JacekK]
ACTION 10 DONE
14:07:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 10
14:08:21 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-10
14:08:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-10 Talk to Eric to confirm minutes change from April 21 closed
14:09:13 [KjetilK]
KjetilK has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-09
14:10:55 [JacekK]
trackbot, close ACTION-23
14:10:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-23 Summarize implicit vs. explicit grouping re ISSUE-11 closed
14:11:21 [JacekK]
trackbot, close ACTION-34
14:11:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-34 Summarize issue discussed in the end of the telecon regarding PUT closed
14:11:52 [JacekK]
trackbot, close ACTION-35
14:12:18 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/
14:12:24 [JacekK]
topic: features and rationales document
14:12:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-35 Tell OWL/RIF that SPARQL is content with http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/PlainLiteral closed
14:13:07 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: most relevant things already in the document
14:13:13 [KjetilK]
Zakim, unmute me
14:13:13 [Zakim]
KjetilK.a should no longer be muted
14:13:30 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-21
14:13:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-21 Summarize dataset issue w/ examples / suggestions per ISSUE-8 closed
14:13:46 [Zakim]
+??P42
14:14:03 [JacekK]
kjetil: we have pretty much all the text we require, with some open issues
14:14:31 [LukeWM]
q+
14:14:38 [JacekK]
kjetil goes over the document
14:15:17 [JacekK]
kjetil: for related discussions, we simply link to the issue tracker
14:15:34 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0346.html
14:15:45 [AxelPolleres]
(Andy's comments)
14:16:10 [JacekK]
kjetil: none of the issues seem to be bloking, we could go to FPWD on what we have
14:16:46 [JacekK]
kjetil: we should discuss if any issues need to be addressed before FPWD
14:16:48 [LeeF]
q+ to suggest one week of review, then publish (even w/ unresolved issues) then refine
14:17:08 [AndyS]
?? 2nd and 3rd ?? Isn't it to be done by end July in prep for charter II?
14:17:31 [AndyS]
q+ to suggest keeping the issues in the doc
14:17:37 [JacekK]
LukeWM: some implementation text may not be correct (?)
14:17:48 [LukeWM]
ack LukeWM
14:18:16 [AndyS]
I can make sure it is at least feasible, parser-wise.
14:18:21 [JacekK]
kjetil: we may need better examples
14:18:55 [JacekK]
ack LeeF
14:18:55 [Zakim]
LeeF, you wanted to suggest one week of review, then publish (even w/ unresolved issues) then refine
14:19:19 [SteveH_]
I'll commit to review it and comment
14:19:30 [JacekK]
LeeF: we need to get people to commit to comment on the doc (it's not long)
14:19:30 [chimezie]
I can do the same
14:19:37 [AxelPolleres]
suggestion is to put remaining issue in ... as Editor's note?
14:19:48 [KjetilK]
my summary of issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0347.html
14:20:20 [JacekK]
ericP: yes, we should make the open issues in a certain style so it's visible
14:20:34 [JacekK]
ack AndyS
14:20:34 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to suggest keeping the issues in the doc
14:20:44 [JacekK]
AndyS: the doc must be self-contained even if it's quite rough
14:21:00 [AndyS]
ack me
14:21:13 [JacekK]
AndyS: the summary up-front should be finished, frozen and time-stamped
14:21:33 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: it should be in the introduction, right?
14:21:48 [JacekK]
ACTION: AxelPolleres to draft the introduction with a summary of the issues
14:21:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - AxelPolleres
14:21:58 [LeeF]
ACTION: Axel to draft the introduction with a summary of the issues
14:21:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-36 - Draft the introduction with a summary of the issues [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-16].
14:22:36 [JacekK]
AndyS: if the docs were on the wiki, it'd be easier to contribute text
14:23:01 [LeeF]
The OWL WG edits their documents on the wiki and publishes directly from there, but that relies on a lot of SandroMagic (TM)
14:23:02 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: we decided for docs to be edited in CVS
14:23:07 [SteveH_]
if the document is in the wiki its harder to track changes
14:23:38 [bijan]
Why not use the Wiki for proposed text
14:23:43 [JacekK]
AndyS: while we're trying to gather material, wiki would be better
14:23:44 [bijan]
and let the editors integrate it
14:24:01 [AndyS]
What worked in RIF and OWL?
14:24:09 [AndyS]
(worked well)
14:24:31 [bijan]
The OWL WG regularly refers to "Wiki maddness"
14:24:36 [bijan]
It was bad for publication
14:24:40 [bijan]
It was very annoying for editing
14:24:45 [bijan]
Brutal, really
14:25:27 [AndyS]
OK - if the editors are prepared to "edit" not just "write"
14:25:39 [JacekK]
bijan: wiki is good for tweaks by everybody
14:25:50 [AndyS]
Sounds like it is not a good as it might be.
14:25:50 [JacekK]
bijan: making systematic changes is harder, also seeing what you're doing is harder
14:26:07 [JacekK]
bijan: wiki syntax is fragile
14:26:27 [Zakim]
-kasei
14:26:37 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: so let's try to draft things on the wiki, and editors will incorporate that in the doc
14:26:44 [JacekK]
bijan: that seems to be a reasonable model
14:27:12 [JacekK]
zakim, who is speaking?
14:27:22 [AxelPolleres]
kjetil is speaking
14:27:22 [Zakim]
JacekK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 14 (40%), AxelPolleres? (14%), AndyS (16%)
14:27:25 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:27:41 [kasei]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:27:41 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
14:27:52 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:27:52 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:27:52 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: at this point, we need more reviewers and comments on the doc
14:28:01 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: everyone should review it, but we should have a few actions
14:28:11 [JacekK]
volunteers - steve, chime
14:28:35 [SteveH_]
by end of week it tight, but I'll try
14:29:04 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: if the reviews arrive by end of week, we might already have a good almost-final material for the FPWD next week
14:29:40 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: for FPWD, we might just go with what we have with some refinement, or does somebody suggest we need a detailed review?
14:30:10 [KjetilK]
q+
14:30:16 [JacekK]
AndyS: I've done a single, not very complete, read-through
14:30:18 [KjetilK]
ack me
14:30:45 [JacekK]
kjetil: people should also just have a look at the open issues (posted by Axel on my behalf)
14:31:00 [JacekK]
kjetil: let's go through them quickly right now
14:31:08 [JacekK]
kjetil: 1) we need a short name
14:31:10 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0347.html
14:31:33 [JacekK]
kjetil: 2) examples should be implemented (we should confirm this)
14:31:44 [JacekK]
kjetil: 3) service descriptions should prolly be a section by itself
14:32:00 [JacekK]
kjetil: 4) suggestion for new version of the protocol
14:32:18 [LeeF]
We haven't explicitly discussed project expressions, which is why
14:32:28 [JacekK]
kjetil: 5) we need to check project expressions if there should be some material
14:32:37 [JacekK]
kjetil: 6) patent policy (?)
14:32:56 [JacekK]
ericP: just the boiler plate, we need not think about it
14:33:09 [LeeF]
I can name 2 project expression issues off the top of my head - syntax for expressions & whether expression alias names are required
14:33:13 [JacekK]
kjetil: 7) some linking consistency
14:33:58 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: service descriptions in their own subsection - any objections?
14:34:07 [JacekK]
s/subsection/section/
14:34:17 [kasei]
q+
14:34:19 [LeeF]
+1 to serv descrip in own section, for the time being at least
14:34:31 [LeeF]
it may end up having protocol aspects, or query aspects, or neither
14:34:38 [SteveH_]
+1
14:34:38 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:34:38 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:35:18 [JacekK]
kasei: the separate section might imply that implementors can deel with this modularly
14:35:53 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:35:53 [Zakim]
KjetilK.a should now be muted
14:35:56 [JacekK]
kasei: somebody could implement query, protocol but not service descriptions
14:36:10 [LeeF]
q+
14:36:11 [ericP]
note that our short name is still subject to approval by the publication team (who make sure we don't call it xquery-foo)
14:36:30 [AndyS]
Not sure I agree - the service description might be 3rd party (woudl like 1st party but realistically?)
14:36:30 [KjetilK]
ack kasei
14:36:38 [KjetilK]
ack LeeF
14:37:00 [KjetilK]
+1
14:37:03 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to own section "Service Description"
14:37:05 [kasei]
+1 LeeF
14:37:08 [JacekK]
LeeF: for this document, it could be its own section; we don't need to say whether it belongs with either of the other parts
14:37:20 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:37:20 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:37:42 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: so we'll put svc descriptions in its own section, with an issue that it may belong to protocol or query
14:37:50 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: we will have an own section "Service Description"
14:38:35 [JacekK]
topic: service descriptions
14:38:45 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: we need a bit of a better idea on what we need
14:38:50 [LeeF]
ISSUE: Is service description part of the protocol, the query language, or something else altogether?
14:39:06 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: we have several proposals
14:39:48 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: 1) the issue was discussed already a long time ago in WG1
14:39:56 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf4.html#item10
14:40:19 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: the first WG's ftf4 lists some proposals
14:40:36 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: the f&r doc could use some of that, e.g. for use cases
14:41:04 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/23
14:41:09 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: the issue on media types & conneg is related
14:41:59 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06#Full__2d_text_search
14:42:17 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: there are two directions - the hard one to go through existing descriptions and recommend something, the easier one just to enable hooks for description without specifying the content
14:42:28 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: we could just provide the mechanism and some examples
14:43:29 [AndyS]
+1 to small (minimal) framework + *suggestions* to use other vocabs
14:43:29 [SteveH_]
q+
14:43:41 [JacekK]
ericP: an endpoint might support DESCRIBE or similar queries about itself
14:44:20 [JacekK]
ericP: we may want to write down some obvious things, such as a class of SPARQL endpoints
14:44:40 [AndyS]
q+ to mention 3rd party use
14:44:48 [JacekK]
SteveH_: I have problems with packing it into the query; with gateways it's hard to know what the URI of the actual endpoint is
14:44:56 [JacekK]
ack SteveH_
14:45:21 [LeeF]
I was a pretty strong advocate of service description, so I should also say that I strongly support doing whatever we see as minimal guidance to encourage people to start describing their endpoints/services :-)
14:45:23 [JacekK]
SteveH_: I'm also uncomfortable about requiring some data to be in the endpoint
14:45:30 [AxelPolleres]
q+ to ask whether we could obtain the service description by simply Get [entpoint] requesting mime type rdf/xml?
14:45:37 [JacekK]
SteveH_: must prefer an HTTP header that would point to the description
14:45:43 [JacekK]
q+ to suggest HTTP OPTIONS
14:46:09 [kasei]
in addition to an Endpoint class, I'd think at minimum we should define properties for extension points (functions, possibly entailment regimes)
14:46:11 [JacekK]
ericP: if we have the description, then we'd also want an endpoint that can query them
14:46:44 [JacekK]
SteveH_: if the HTTP header gives you a URI, you can just do FROM that URI
14:46:45 [kasei]
heh
14:47:03 [JacekK]
ericP: I find it easier to specify graphs than to add HTTP headers
14:47:22 [AndyS]
SOAP?
14:47:24 [JacekK]
SteveH_: it took me less than an hour to add the header, but embedding dynamic data in the endpoint is harder
14:47:28 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the queue?
14:47:28 [Zakim]
I see AndyS, AxelPolleres, JacekK on the speaker queue
14:47:48 [JacekK]
ericP: the header may also not make it through proxies
14:48:22 [JacekK]
ericP: I meant it's difficult to specify the HTTP header, not to implement it - we'd need to involve IETF, HTTP extensibility, RFC iterations...
14:48:30 [chimezie]
What is the Atom precedence here?
14:48:43 [JacekK]
AndyS: some use cases, where the endpoint is not the one offering the description
14:48:52 [JacekK]
AndyS: a repository (UDDI-like situation)
14:48:56 [AxelPolleres]
that's an interesting one.
14:49:14 [JacekK]
AndyS: all discussion now has focused on the endpoint describing itself
14:49:25 [LeeF]
chimezie, good question
14:49:34 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: is there an issue in the authority of descriptions?
14:49:59 [chimezie]
Atom appears to have an explicit 'service document' with a known URI
14:50:02 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: what's the use case for 3rd party description of an endpoint?
14:50:07 [LeeF]
chimezie, EliasT tells me that Atom Publishing Protocol (APP) has a well-known service.xml file
14:50:58 [chimezie]
Yeah, i'm looking to see if the URI for this service document is 'hardcoded' or can be discovered via introspection of some kind
14:51:06 [AndyS]
Currently - It is not part of the protocol. Must have "query="
14:51:17 [JacekK]
ericP: query is a required parameter
14:51:36 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: could we add a new behavior there?
14:51:48 [LeeF]
chimezie, he says you can find it via a meta tag in HTML
14:52:01 [JacekK]
ericP: it's currently an error, and our WSDL description would then be "everything-optional"
14:52:02 [chimezie]
hmmm..
14:52:25 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the queue?
14:52:25 [Zakim]
I see AndyS, AxelPolleres, JacekK on the speaker queue
14:52:28 [JacekK]
ericP: but an error could be reasonable if the request is not recognized - an old system
14:52:34 [AxelPolleres]
ack AndyS
14:52:34 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to mention 3rd party use
14:52:43 [AxelPolleres]
ack AxelPolleres
14:52:43 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask whether we could obtain the service description by simply Get [entpoint] requesting mime type rdf/xml?
14:52:53 [LeeF]
chimezie, EliasT points me to http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-atomsidebar/index.html
14:52:58 [chimezie]
[[[
14:52:58 [chimezie]
How Service Documents are discovered is not defined in this
14:52:59 [chimezie]
specification.
14:53:02 [chimezie]
]]] -- Atom Pub
14:53:10 [JacekK]
JacekK: one of the ways to get the description would be HTTP OPTIONS
14:53:17 [SteveH_]
http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html
14:53:22 [SteveH_]
OPTIONs
14:53:41 [LeeF]
I wouldn't knw where to start to implement something via OPTION
14:53:50 [AndyS]
Do you get content neg on OPTIONs?
14:53:56 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9#sec9.2
14:54:05 [LeeF]
q?
14:54:08 [LeeF]
ack JacekK
14:54:08 [Zakim]
JacekK, you wanted to suggest HTTP OPTIONS
14:54:11 [SteveH_]
AndyS, yes
14:54:25 [AndyS]
OPTION * is tricky but otherwise servelet API would route it.
14:54:28 [AndyS]
Thx Steve
14:54:32 [JacekK]
JacekK: OPTIONS is used to discover, for example, which of GET/POST/PUT/DELETE is available
14:54:43 [kasei]
might run into trouble using OPTION in many www client APIs
14:54:48 [JacekK]
JacekK: HTTP currently doesn't specify what can be returned as the body of the response
14:55:11 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: time is running out, any volunteer to summarize this in an email, or the wiki?
14:55:39 [JacekK]
ericP: steve and I should have an argument on the wiki
14:56:00 [JacekK]
ericP: but I'll be quite busy the upcoming weeks
14:56:13 [JacekK]
SteveH_: I've already put my thoughts on the wiki
14:56:36 [kjetil]
kjetil has joined #sparql
14:56:44 [JacekK]
SteveH_: I didn't add anything about the query language stuff, not expecting that we'd even consider it
14:57:28 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Eric to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions
14:57:35 [chimezie]
It seems like a comprehensive set of usecases might frame this discussion better (so we aren't talking about open-ended service descriptions, but descriptions of specific SPARQL-related services)
14:58:04 [JacekK]
bijan: what did you mean by the query lang stuff?
14:58:13 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Jacek to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions (specifically HTTP OPTION)
14:58:22 [LeeF]
s/bijan/LeeF
14:58:30 [JacekK]
SteveH_: syntax extensions, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem - you need to know what lang is allowed before you could ask for the description
14:59:11 [AxelPolleres]
Eric: at least type sparqlendpoint
14:59:25 [AxelPolleres]
Orri: each feature should have a URI.
14:59:35 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0299.html
14:59:44 [kasei]
I'm here
15:00:15 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: we prolly don't want to standardize a full description language
15:00:20 [Zakim]
-john-l
15:00:28 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: a Note could be an option
15:00:33 [kasei]
q+ to mention vocabulary
15:00:36 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
15:00:36 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
15:00:41 [Zakim]
-Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:01:08 [AxelPolleres]
Orri: void good for the data, but we need to extend for the query language/endpoitn capabilities
15:01:37 [JacekK]
kasei: agree that we should have a class for endpoints, and I'd add a property for saying "this endpoint supports this extension function" and maybe other extensions (entailment regimes etc.)
15:01:39 [AxelPolleres]
Kasei: we need URIs for extension functions supported, entailment regimes.
15:01:46 [pgearon]
+1
15:01:52 [SimonS]
+1
15:01:59 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
15:01:59 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
15:02:06 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf4.html#item10
15:02:29 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: the link mentions some of what we've discussed
15:02:56 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: did saddle come from that discussion?
15:03:14 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
15:03:15 [LeeF]
s/saddle/SADDL
15:03:16 [LeeF]
i think
15:03:20 [kasei]
I can write up a brief proposal
15:03:25 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: volunteers for reviewing the old discussion?
15:03:33 [JacekK]
AxelPolleres: thanks kasei
15:03:42 [Zakim]
-bglimm
15:03:43 [Zakim]
-??P42
15:03:45 [JacekK]
telcon done
15:03:46 [Zakim]
-EricP
15:03:47 [Zakim]
-bijan
15:03:47 [Zakim]
-pgearon
15:03:50 [Zakim]
-JacekK
15:03:52 [Zakim]
-SimonS
15:03:54 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:03:56 [Zakim]
-KjetilK.a
15:03:58 [Zakim]
-Prateek
15:04:09 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Kasei to start with a proposal for service descriptions to trigger mail discussion
15:04:22 [Zakim]
-kasei
15:04:23 [SimonS]
SimonS has left #sparql
15:04:44 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, list attendees
15:04:44 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +539149aaaa, AxelPolleres?, bijan, +1.216.445.aabb, john-l, +005aacc, SimonS, bglimm, AndyS, kasei, SteveH_, LukeWM, JacekK,
15:04:47 [LeeF]
I'll take care of that, JacekK
15:04:47 [Zakim]
... Chimezie_Ogbuji, pgearon, EricP, LeeF, Prateek
15:04:49 [kasei]
Axel: does that include both vocab and access mechanism?
15:04:52 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres
15:04:53 [LeeF]
thanks for scribing!
15:05:00 [JacekK]
sure thing! 8-)
15:05:13 [kasei]
the discussion at the end was vocab, and it seemed some of the access stuff was covered by another action.
15:05:13 [JacekK]
bye all
15:05:16 [ericP]
LeeF, something like[[ SELECT ?v { <> void:description ?v } ]] would pass through proxies 'cause you only need to call the service <>
15:05:53 [ericP]
wait, that'd be base
15:05:54 [AxelPolleres]
kasei: my personal opinion, vocab is covered partially already by others, let's check what is necessary, but NOT covered byt things like void.
15:06:06 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres
15:06:17 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
15:06:23 [kasei]
I may be unclear on what my action is, then :)
15:06:32 [AxelPolleres]
lee, eric... seems we forgot trackbot this time, or it dropped?
15:06:49 [AxelPolleres]
so, I guess actions need to be recorded manually?
15:06:52 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres?
15:06:56 [AxelPolleres]
Bye all!
15:07:35 [ericP]
2009-06-09T14:31:00Z -!- trackbot [trackbot@128.30.52.30] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
15:07:36 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres, we had the bot for half the time
15:07:39 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
15:07:45 [AxelPolleres]
yup.
15:07:56 [LeeF]
we'll have to muddle through to repair things
15:08:35 [AxelPolleres]
need to run, if you had time to clean up/complete the actions now, I 'd appreciate, otherwise, I can try after RIF.
15:09:16 [kasei]
kasei has left #sparql
15:09:44 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #sparql
15:10:47 [trackbot]
Getting data for channel #sparql at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track//api/users failed - alert sysreq of a possible bug
15:13:16 [AxelPolleres]
eric, may I kindly ask for the minutes magic again :-) thnx!
15:15:36 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres, ericP doesn't know the minutes magic :-)
15:15:49 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #sparql
15:15:57 [ericP]
AxelPolleres, it works this way:
15:15:58 [ericP]
LeeF, please make minutes happen
15:17:15 [AxelPolleres]
LeeF, please make minutes happen
15:17:16 [AxelPolleres]
:-)
15:17:35 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres, I do not understand 'please make minutes happen'
15:17:40 [ericP]
crappy bot
15:17:50 [LeeF]
ericP, I do not appreciate 'crappy bot'
15:18:14 [ericP]
espece de bot
15:18:41 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-minutes.html didn't work, it seems.
15:22:25 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres, I'm having trouble with lots of things, so I'll try again later today
15:35:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, [Garlik], in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
15:35:04 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:35:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were +539149aaaa, AxelPolleres?, bijan, +1.216.445.aabb, john-l, +005aacc, SimonS, bglimm, AndyS, kasei, SteveH_, LukeWM, JacekK, Chimezie_Ogbuji, pgearon, EricP, LeeF,
15:35:07 [Zakim]
... Prateek
15:48:36 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #sparql
16:04:02 [iv_an_ru]
iv_an_ru has joined #sparql
16:30:21 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
16:32:25 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #sparql
17:11:19 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:11:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
17:11:24 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, make logs world
17:11:32 [LeeF]
rrsagent, pointer
17:11:32 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T17-11-32
17:17:21 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
17:20:43 [LeeF]
ISSUE: Is service description part of the protocol, the query language, or something else altogether?
17:20:43 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-31 - Is service description part of the protocol, the query language, or something else altogether? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/31/edit .
17:22:57 [LeeF]
ACTION: Jacek to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions (specifically HTTP OPTION)
17:22:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-37 - Add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions (specifically HTTP OPTION) [on Jacek Kopecký - due 2009-06-16].
17:25:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: Greg to write up a brief proposal surrounding service description
17:25:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-38 - Write up a brief proposal surrounding service description [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-06-16].
17:31:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql
17:36:51 [pgearon]
pgearon has left #sparql
17:54:48 [karl]
karl has joined #sparql
19:09:34 [LeeF]
iv_an_ru, are you around by any chance? don't know what our time difference is :)
19:10:08 [iv_an_ru]
Hello LeeF, my timezome is GMT+6/GMT+7
19:10:29 [iv_an_ru]
but I usually work late evenings.
19:13:40 [LeeF]
:-)
19:13:54 [LeeF]
does Virtuoso SPARQL have syntax to allow me to rename aggregate expressions that i'm selecting?
19:13:56 [LeeF]
a la AS ...
19:13:57 [LeeF]
?
19:14:27 [iv_an_ru]
Yes, we have expn AS ?variable for aggragates as well as for all other expressions.
19:15:01 [LeeF]
can the AS alias be used in an ORDER BY ?
19:15:36 [iv_an_ru]
Unfortunately no, the whole expression should be used there.
19:15:41 [LeeF]
ok
19:15:46 [LeeF]
ORDER BY DESC(count(*))
19:15:47 [LeeF]
like that?
19:16:08 [iv_an_ru]
(It's possible to cheat and write number of column in ORDER BY instead of expression, like in SQL, to make queries shorter.
19:16:22 [LeeF]
right, but for clarity, ORDER BY DESC(count(*)) works?
19:16:26 [iv_an_ru]
Yes, your example is correct.
19:16:31 [LeeF]
terrific, thanks
19:16:48 [LeeF]
while i'm at it :) any idea why queries like "SELECT count(?s) WHERE {?s a foaf:Person}" are timing out against lod.openlinksw.com ?
19:16:58 [iv_an_ru]
For us, aggregate expressions are just expressions, can be nested in other expressions etc.
19:17:43 [iv_an_ru]
Because the service really tries to count them. Hence, to count _lot_ of them.
19:19:09 [LeeF]
ok, thanks
19:20:12 [iv_an_ru]
I'll install a private copy of LOD cache at my home box soon; it will have no timeouts or other safety limits. You can get a login if you want.
19:21:07 [LeeF]
For my current purposes, I need my queries to be publicly runnable, but I might appreciate that for some personal work anyway :)
19:21:31 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, bye
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-actions.rdf :
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AxelPolleres to draft the introduction with a summary of the issues [1]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T14-21-48
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Axel to draft the introduction with a summary of the issues [2]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T14-21-58
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Eric to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions [3]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T14-57-28
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jacek to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions (specifically HTTP OPTION) [4]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T14-58-13
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kasei to start with a proposal for service descriptions to trigger mail discussion [5]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T15-04-09
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jacek to add to http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions about different options to serve descriptions (specifically HTTP OPTION) [6]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T17-22-57
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg to write up a brief proposal surrounding service description [7]
19:21:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-sparql-irc#T17-25-07