IRC log of rdfa on 2009-06-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:35:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:35:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc
14:35:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:35:26 [msporny]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:35:26 [Zakim]
ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:49 [msporny]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jun/0010.html
14:36:02 [msporny]
previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html
14:43:17 [msporny]
Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:43:36 [msporny]
Chair: Manu_Sporny
14:43:51 [msporny]
rrsagent, make log public
14:43:58 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:50:42 [msporny]
present: Shane_McCarron, Manu_Sporny
14:50:58 [msporny]
regrets: Ben_Adida, Michael_Hausenblas, Mark_Birbeck
14:57:51 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:59:30 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
14:59:51 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #rdfa
14:59:51 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
14:59:51 [trackbot]
If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
15:00:18 [ShaneM]
huh - we don't use trackbot? I thought we did
15:00:39 [msporny]
uhh, I don't think we use trackbot?
15:00:53 [rubys1]
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15:01:37 [msporny]
Hi sam :)
15:01:41 [rubys]
Hi!
15:02:00 [msporny]
want to join us on the call... it's a very small group today.
15:02:34 [msporny]
s/call\.\.\./call\?/
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+Sam
15:03:47 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Sam
15:03:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rubys, trackbot, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, msporny
15:04:38 [msporny]
brt, phone issues.
15:04:38 [ShaneM]
trackbot, leave
15:04:38 [trackbot]
trackbot has left #rdfa
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.641.aaaa
15:05:46 [msporny]
zakim, I am 1.540.641.aaaa
15:05:51 [Zakim]
sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '1.540.641.aaaa'
15:05:55 [msporny]
zakim, I am +1.540.641.aaaa
15:05:55 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
15:06:31 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #rdfa
15:06:47 [hober]
hober has joined #rdfa
15:08:15 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:08:59 [Ralph]
scribe: Ralph
15:09:14 [Ralph]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:09:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Sam, msporny, Ralph
15:09:52 [Ralph]
[apologies for arriving late]
15:09:54 [msporny]
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:10:06 [Ralph]
Topic: Action Review
15:10:24 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:10:33 [msporny]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter
15:11:04 [Ralph]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to go through and categorize issues and requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:11:10 [msporny]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order
15:11:53 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker instance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:00 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:12:16 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:12:22 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:12:30 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:35 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:12:43 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:12:52 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:12:58 [Ralph]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:14:05 [msporny]
scribe: msporny
15:14:10 [msporny]
Topic: Ralph to discuss issue-214
15:14:25 [ShaneM]
agenda+ Copyright for W3C Test Suites
15:14:36 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/214 issue-2314
15:14:42 [Ralph]
s/2314/214
15:15:02 [msporny]
Ralph: This issue was a comment that came during SKOS implementation.
15:15:22 [msporny]
Ralph: The WG decided that it was more of an editorial question for RDFa TF to consider.
15:15:49 [msporny]
Ralph: There has been a long thread, Ben's aware of the thread...
15:16:00 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
15:16:09 [ShaneM]
sorry coming back
15:16:20 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:17:54 [msporny]
Ralph: We should consider providing community advice in the case where the same URI should be a piece of an RDF vocabulary or a target in an HTML document.
15:18:43 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
15:18:51 [Ralph]
s/should/might
15:18:51 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:19:38 [msporny]
Ralph: In the case where the mimetype of the document is HTML, or application/rdf+xhtml
15:20:13 [msporny]
s/rdf+xhtml/rdf+xml/
15:20:34 [msporny]
Ralph: in the case of RDFa, it's not so clear that an application can disambiguate between the two types of documents.
15:21:05 [msporny]
Ralph: You should not use the same URI for the name in an HTML document as well as a term in an RDF vocabulary.
15:21:21 [ShaneM]
q+ to talk about fragment identifiers
15:21:45 [msporny]
Ralph: People shouldn't do <p id="foo" about="#foo">
15:22:00 [msporny]
ShaneM: I disagree
15:22:15 [msporny]
ShaneM: The whole point of RDFa is to embed things in this way.
15:22:36 [msporny]
ShaneM: I have a URI, which is interpreted in the context of the HTTP request header.
15:23:00 [msporny]
ShaneM: A semantic web application will follow-your-nose that should take you to the definition of a vocabulary item.
15:23:06 [msporny]
ShaneM: I'm going to prefer xml+rdf
15:23:30 [msporny]
ShaneM: from a content negotiation perspective, the server should send back what the requester wants.
15:23:58 [msporny]
ShaneM: If the request is rdf+xml, then it should extract the triples from the XHTML document and send those back as rdf+xml.
15:24:04 [msporny]
Ralph: Interesting point.
15:24:18 [msporny]
Ralph: The old advice might not matter as much anymore?
15:24:33 [msporny]
Ralph: Eric Proudhommeaux (sp?) might have something to say about this.
15:26:40 [Ralph]
Ralph: there might be use cases where the subject of a triple might well want to be a particular bit of HTML markup
15:26:52 [Ralph]
s/Proud/Prud
15:27:09 [Ralph]
Manu: might be something to handle in a validator
15:27:20 [Ralph]
scribenick: ralph
15:27:41 [Ralph]
Manu: people might do id='foo' and about='foo' when they're doing vocabulary authoring
15:28:03 [Ralph]
... it's nice to be able to drop a vocabulary term into a Web browser and see a document
15:28:25 [msporny]
Ralph: How can we say something about the ID "foo" <p id="foo" about="#foo"> and not the about="#foo"
15:28:44 [Ralph]
Shane: and XML requires something of type ID in order for the fragment to be valie
15:29:26 [Ralph]
... in general, id='foo' about='foo' always occurs when you want to bind triples to a block in a document
15:29:35 [Ralph]
... particularly in definitions of terms
15:29:57 [Ralph]
... when referring to a local definition of a term you'd have an ID and you'd bind to it using @about
15:30:04 [Ralph]
... you might also refer to it in @resource
15:31:34 [Ralph]
Manu: maybe we should create a Wiki page and develop a best practice in this area
15:31:58 [Ralph]
ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214
15:32:54 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
15:32:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Copyright for W3C Test Suites" taken up [from ShaneM]
15:33:28 [Ralph]
Shane: looking for advice on what are acceptable test suite copyrights
15:33:41 [Ralph]
Manu: specifically, is the MIT license sufficient?
15:34:04 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright
15:34:22 [rubys]
in general, MIT licensed code can be pulled into almost any codebase; the reverse is not necessarily true
15:34:51 [Ralph]
Topic: Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues
15:34:52 [msporny]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order
15:35:12 [Ralph]
Manu: I'd taken action to propose a discussion order
15:36:24 [Ralph]
Sam: suggest moving " Requirement: RDFa signalling mechanism for XHTML+RDFa, HTML+RDFa, and how does mime-type affect that mechanism?" higher
15:36:46 [Ralph]
... figure out what the signalling mechanism is
15:37:19 [Ralph]
... html served as text/xml is interpreted differently by different browsers
15:38:01 [Ralph]
Manu: propose to move the signalling discussion after "target of RDFa processing rules" and before "Do we need to cut features from RDFa to support HTML+RDFa?"
15:38:05 [Ralph]
Shane: fine with me
15:38:26 [Ralph]
... some of these items have been raised in email but I'm not persuaded they're really issues
15:39:19 [Ralph]
Manu: so move "RDFa signalling mechanism" to 2nd position
15:39:22 [Ralph]
Ralph: ok with me
15:39:31 [rubys]
if they aren't really issues, they should be able to be disposed of quickly.
15:39:37 [Ralph]
Topic: Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion
15:39:47 [msporny]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_processing_rules
15:40:25 [Ralph]
Manu: question is "on what do the RDFa processing rules operate?"
15:40:49 [Ralph]
... e.g. on a DOM structure [or not]
15:41:02 [Ralph]
... now we're trying to explain how this works across all languages
15:41:10 [Ralph]
... and generate the same triples across all document [types]
15:41:21 [Ralph]
... gets tricky when accounting for serialization issues
15:41:49 [Ralph]
... goal is to find a set of rules that works on a parse tree or an abstract syntax tree rather than on a DOM
15:42:08 [Ralph]
... so define the rules in a way not based on serialization of a specific language
15:42:26 [Ralph]
Shane: Mark has a clever way of thinking about this
15:42:51 [Ralph]
... and is very persuasive :)
15:43:25 [Ralph]
... as I understand it, Mark's model is that RDFa is at the application layer so whatever the underlying layer provides to the application is what should be worked on
15:43:51 [Ralph]
... this solves the RDFa specification problem but doesn't solve the "I want the same triples when I give the same document content to different things"
15:44:11 [Ralph]
... I don't see how we can control the structure of the _input_ to RDFa in a meaningful way
15:44:32 [Ralph]
... will happen differently in legacy browsers, HTML5, new browsers, etc.
15:44:49 [Ralph]
... I'm not optimistic that we'll find a way to guarantee the same triples everywhere
15:45:16 [Ralph]
Sam: if we can find a subset that _does_ give the same triples and note the other cases with a recommendation not to to those
15:45:35 [Ralph]
... can't assume that the consumer respects the well-formed input requirement
15:45:45 [Ralph]
... this requirement is routinely ignored
15:45:59 [Ralph]
Shane: ignored by user agents but not by tool chain processors
15:46:26 [Ralph]
Sam: wise to accept that some people will be processing this in browsers and give advice on what won't work there
15:46:49 [Ralph]
Shane: I do think we can restrict the language so that it has more predictable behaviours under different processing models
15:47:10 [Ralph]
Sam: e.g. if a single document has two names that differ only in case, that's probably wierd and don't do it
15:47:35 [Ralph]
Shane: yep, we just never considered that case in our prior discussions
15:47:51 [Ralph]
Manu: the test cases put on the mailing list are really good starting points
15:48:28 [Ralph]
... we should be clear about what model the RDFa rules are operating on but I do not see a reason to strip out any rules
15:49:13 [Ralph]
... Mark's position is that we can't control the input to the RDFa processing rules
15:49:30 [Ralph]
... we can't control how things get put into a DOM; that's in the domain of the HTML WG
15:49:47 [Ralph]
... so the RDFa processing rules ought to be restated in terms of _some_ incoming model
15:50:16 [Ralph]
... RDFa might be used in something that has nothing to do with a DOM
15:50:30 [Ralph]
... not a good idea to restrict RDFa to just a DOM
15:51:37 [Ralph]
... if you run an HTML document through two different processors, one producing a DOM and the other not then I don't see how we can guarantee in all cases to produce the same triples
15:51:55 [rubys]
I agree with DOM as the answer to question #1... the problem is that Drupal is producing content with RDFa, and depending on the user agent, it may be processed differently. If you look at Phillip's tests there will be cases where they answers will differ, and some of these can't be solved. In some cases, the answer may be "don't do that". Example: if you define an XML literal and serve the content as text/html, be sure that you don't define any content that HTM
15:52:27 [Ralph]
... they _might_ be the same in some cases but I don't think we should try to guarantee the same triples in all cases
15:53:53 [Ralph]
Shane: from personal experience, some of our tests produced foreign elements that were removed from the DOM tree I was handed
15:54:04 [rubys]
... that HTML5 processing rules will reorder or change in a way that can't be addressed by the parser.
15:54:09 [Ralph]
... I don't have control over this; I can only work on what I'm handed
15:54:43 [Ralph]
Manu: can we come up with an example that shows how a well-formed document would generate different triples?
15:55:07 [Ralph]
Shane: comes up when embedding foreign stuff, e.g. SVG -- the SVG simply doesn't show up in the DOM
15:55:18 [Ralph]
... there could be RDFa annotations on the SVG but I've lost them
15:55:54 [msporny]
Thanks for joining us Sam :)
15:55:58 [msporny]
and for your input.
15:55:59 [Ralph]
... the XML literal case may well be the most glaring example
15:56:13 [Ralph]
... there are several ways to address this and I don't have a strong preference for which we pick
15:56:26 [Ralph]
... I sort-of like Mark's suggestion to change the default to not be an XML literal
15:56:42 [Ralph]
... so you'd only produce an XML literal in a triple when you explicitly ask for one
15:57:07 [Ralph]
Manu: the side-effect of making it not automatically an XML literal is that it will process the content
15:57:25 [Zakim]
-Sam
15:57:34 [Ralph]
... e.g. <spam about='foo'> inside the content would cause triples to be generated
15:57:38 [Ralph]
Shane: that's probably a corner case
15:57:53 [Ralph]
... easier to change behavior sooner than later
15:58:13 [Ralph]
Manu: the reason for a change is to make XML literals the same between HTML and XHTML
15:58:47 [Ralph]
... but there's a parallel discussion suggesting that it may be OK for the triples to differ given different input
15:59:14 [Ralph]
Shane: the core issue here is whether it makes any sense to generate XML literals in a non-XML context
15:59:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:00:04 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:00:07 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:00:13 [Ralph]
present+ Sam_Ruby
16:00:16 [Zakim]
-msporny
16:00:18 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:00:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Sam, +1.540.641.aaaa, msporny, Ralph
16:00:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:01:07 [Ralph]
present+ Ralph_Swick
16:01:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:01:37 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
16:01:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:01:40 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
16:01:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:01:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214 [1]
16:01:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc#T15-31-58
16:01:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright [2]
16:01:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc#T15-34-04