14:35:03 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:35:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc 14:35:10 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:35:26 zakim, this will be rdfa 14:35:26 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes 14:35:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jun/0010.html 14:36:02 previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html 14:43:17 Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force 14:43:36 Chair: Manu_Sporny 14:43:51 rrsagent, make log public 14:43:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:43:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:50:42 present: Shane_McCarron, Manu_Sporny 14:50:58 regrets: Ben_Adida, Michael_Hausenblas, Mark_Birbeck 14:57:51 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:59:30 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:59:37 +ShaneM 14:59:51 trackbot has joined #rdfa 14:59:51 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 14:59:51 If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group) 15:00:18 huh - we don't use trackbot? I thought we did 15:00:39 uhh, I don't think we use trackbot? 15:00:53 rubys1 has joined #rdfa 15:01:37 Hi sam :) 15:01:41 Hi! 15:02:00 want to join us on the call... it's a very small group today. 15:02:34 s/call\.\.\./call\?/ 15:03:28 +Sam 15:03:47 zakim, who is here? 15:03:47 On the phone I see ShaneM, Sam 15:03:48 On IRC I see rubys, trackbot, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, msporny 15:04:38 brt, phone issues. 15:04:38 trackbot, leave 15:04:38 trackbot has left #rdfa 15:05:18 + +1.540.641.aaaa 15:05:46 zakim, I am 1.540.641.aaaa 15:05:51 sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '1.540.641.aaaa' 15:05:55 zakim, I am +1.540.641.aaaa 15:05:55 +msporny; got it 15:06:31 Ralph has joined #rdfa 15:06:47 hober has joined #rdfa 15:08:15 +Ralph 15:08:59 scribe: Ralph 15:09:14 zakim, who's on the call? 15:09:14 On the phone I see ShaneM, Sam, msporny, Ralph 15:09:52 [apologies for arriving late] 15:09:54 http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 15:10:06 Topic: Action Review 15:10:24 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:10:33 http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter 15:11:04 [DONE] ACTION: Manu to go through and categorize issues and requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:11:10 http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order 15:11:53 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker instance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:12:00 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:12:16 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 15:12:22 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:12:30 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:12:35 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:12:43 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:12:52 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] 15:12:58 [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:14:05 scribe: msporny 15:14:10 Topic: Ralph to discuss issue-214 15:14:25 agenda+ Copyright for W3C Test Suites 15:14:36 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/214 issue-2314 15:14:42 s/2314/214 15:15:02 Ralph: This issue was a comment that came during SKOS implementation. 15:15:22 Ralph: The WG decided that it was more of an editorial question for RDFa TF to consider. 15:15:49 Ralph: There has been a long thread, Ben's aware of the thread... 15:16:00 -ShaneM 15:16:09 sorry coming back 15:16:20 +ShaneM 15:17:54 Ralph: We should consider providing community advice in the case where the same URI should be a piece of an RDF vocabulary or a target in an HTML document. 15:18:43 -ShaneM 15:18:51 s/should/might 15:18:51 +ShaneM 15:19:38 Ralph: In the case where the mimetype of the document is HTML, or application/rdf+xhtml 15:20:13 s/rdf+xhtml/rdf+xml/ 15:20:34 Ralph: in the case of RDFa, it's not so clear that an application can disambiguate between the two types of documents. 15:21:05 Ralph: You should not use the same URI for the name in an HTML document as well as a term in an RDF vocabulary. 15:21:21 q+ to talk about fragment identifiers 15:21:45 Ralph: People shouldn't do

15:22:00 ShaneM: I disagree 15:22:15 ShaneM: The whole point of RDFa is to embed things in this way. 15:22:36 ShaneM: I have a URI, which is interpreted in the context of the HTTP request header. 15:23:00 ShaneM: A semantic web application will follow-your-nose that should take you to the definition of a vocabulary item. 15:23:06 ShaneM: I'm going to prefer xml+rdf 15:23:30 ShaneM: from a content negotiation perspective, the server should send back what the requester wants. 15:23:58 ShaneM: If the request is rdf+xml, then it should extract the triples from the XHTML document and send those back as rdf+xml. 15:24:04 Ralph: Interesting point. 15:24:18 Ralph: The old advice might not matter as much anymore? 15:24:33 Ralph: Eric Proudhommeaux (sp?) might have something to say about this. 15:26:40 Ralph: there might be use cases where the subject of a triple might well want to be a particular bit of HTML markup 15:26:52 s/Proud/Prud 15:27:09 Manu: might be something to handle in a validator 15:27:20 scribenick: ralph 15:27:41 Manu: people might do id='foo' and about='foo' when they're doing vocabulary authoring 15:28:03 ... it's nice to be able to drop a vocabulary term into a Web browser and see a document 15:28:25 Ralph: How can we say something about the ID "foo"

and not the about="#foo" 15:28:44 Shane: and XML requires something of type ID in order for the fragment to be valie 15:29:26 ... in general, id='foo' about='foo' always occurs when you want to bind triples to a block in a document 15:29:35 ... particularly in definitions of terms 15:29:57 ... when referring to a local definition of a term you'd have an ID and you'd bind to it using @about 15:30:04 ... you might also refer to it in @resource 15:31:34 Manu: maybe we should create a Wiki page and develop a best practice in this area 15:31:58 ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214 15:32:54 zakim, next item 15:32:54 agendum 1. "Copyright for W3C Test Suites" taken up [from ShaneM] 15:33:28 Shane: looking for advice on what are acceptable test suite copyrights 15:33:41 Manu: specifically, is the MIT license sufficient? 15:34:04 ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright 15:34:22 in general, MIT licensed code can be pulled into almost any codebase; the reverse is not necessarily true 15:34:51 Topic: Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues 15:34:52 http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order 15:35:12 Manu: I'd taken action to propose a discussion order 15:36:24 Sam: suggest moving " Requirement: RDFa signalling mechanism for XHTML+RDFa, HTML+RDFa, and how does mime-type affect that mechanism?" higher 15:36:46 ... figure out what the signalling mechanism is 15:37:19 ... html served as text/xml is interpreted differently by different browsers 15:38:01 Manu: propose to move the signalling discussion after "target of RDFa processing rules" and before "Do we need to cut features from RDFa to support HTML+RDFa?" 15:38:05 Shane: fine with me 15:38:26 ... some of these items have been raised in email but I'm not persuaded they're really issues 15:39:19 Manu: so move "RDFa signalling mechanism" to 2nd position 15:39:22 Ralph: ok with me 15:39:31 if they aren't really issues, they should be able to be disposed of quickly. 15:39:37 Topic: Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion 15:39:47 http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_processing_rules 15:40:25 Manu: question is "on what do the RDFa processing rules operate?" 15:40:49 ... e.g. on a DOM structure [or not] 15:41:02 ... now we're trying to explain how this works across all languages 15:41:10 ... and generate the same triples across all document [types] 15:41:21 ... gets tricky when accounting for serialization issues 15:41:49 ... goal is to find a set of rules that works on a parse tree or an abstract syntax tree rather than on a DOM 15:42:08 ... so define the rules in a way not based on serialization of a specific language 15:42:26 Shane: Mark has a clever way of thinking about this 15:42:51 ... and is very persuasive :) 15:43:25 ... as I understand it, Mark's model is that RDFa is at the application layer so whatever the underlying layer provides to the application is what should be worked on 15:43:51 ... this solves the RDFa specification problem but doesn't solve the "I want the same triples when I give the same document content to different things" 15:44:11 ... I don't see how we can control the structure of the _input_ to RDFa in a meaningful way 15:44:32 ... will happen differently in legacy browsers, HTML5, new browsers, etc. 15:44:49 ... I'm not optimistic that we'll find a way to guarantee the same triples everywhere 15:45:16 Sam: if we can find a subset that _does_ give the same triples and note the other cases with a recommendation not to to those 15:45:35 ... can't assume that the consumer respects the well-formed input requirement 15:45:45 ... this requirement is routinely ignored 15:45:59 Shane: ignored by user agents but not by tool chain processors 15:46:26 Sam: wise to accept that some people will be processing this in browsers and give advice on what won't work there 15:46:49 Shane: I do think we can restrict the language so that it has more predictable behaviours under different processing models 15:47:10 Sam: e.g. if a single document has two names that differ only in case, that's probably wierd and don't do it 15:47:35 Shane: yep, we just never considered that case in our prior discussions 15:47:51 Manu: the test cases put on the mailing list are really good starting points 15:48:28 ... we should be clear about what model the RDFa rules are operating on but I do not see a reason to strip out any rules 15:49:13 ... Mark's position is that we can't control the input to the RDFa processing rules 15:49:30 ... we can't control how things get put into a DOM; that's in the domain of the HTML WG 15:49:47 ... so the RDFa processing rules ought to be restated in terms of _some_ incoming model 15:50:16 ... RDFa might be used in something that has nothing to do with a DOM 15:50:30 ... not a good idea to restrict RDFa to just a DOM 15:51:37 ... if you run an HTML document through two different processors, one producing a DOM and the other not then I don't see how we can guarantee in all cases to produce the same triples 15:51:55 I agree with DOM as the answer to question #1... the problem is that Drupal is producing content with RDFa, and depending on the user agent, it may be processed differently. If you look at Phillip's tests there will be cases where they answers will differ, and some of these can't be solved. In some cases, the answer may be "don't do that". Example: if you define an XML literal and serve the content as text/html, be sure that you don't define any content that HTM 15:52:27 ... they _might_ be the same in some cases but I don't think we should try to guarantee the same triples in all cases 15:53:53 Shane: from personal experience, some of our tests produced foreign elements that were removed from the DOM tree I was handed 15:54:04 ... that HTML5 processing rules will reorder or change in a way that can't be addressed by the parser. 15:54:09 ... I don't have control over this; I can only work on what I'm handed 15:54:43 Manu: can we come up with an example that shows how a well-formed document would generate different triples? 15:55:07 Shane: comes up when embedding foreign stuff, e.g. SVG -- the SVG simply doesn't show up in the DOM 15:55:18 ... there could be RDFa annotations on the SVG but I've lost them 15:55:54 Thanks for joining us Sam :) 15:55:58 and for your input. 15:55:59 ... the XML literal case may well be the most glaring example 15:56:13 ... there are several ways to address this and I don't have a strong preference for which we pick 15:56:26 ... I sort-of like Mark's suggestion to change the default to not be an XML literal 15:56:42 ... so you'd only produce an XML literal in a triple when you explicitly ask for one 15:57:07 Manu: the side-effect of making it not automatically an XML literal is that it will process the content 15:57:25 -Sam 15:57:34 ... e.g. inside the content would cause triples to be generated 15:57:38 Shane: that's probably a corner case 15:57:53 ... easier to change behavior sooner than later 15:58:13 Manu: the reason for a change is to make XML literals the same between HTML and XHTML 15:58:47 ... but there's a parallel discussion suggesting that it may be OK for the triples to differ given different input 15:59:14 Shane: the core issue here is whether it makes any sense to generate XML literals in a non-XML context 15:59:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:00:04 -ShaneM 16:00:07 -Ralph 16:00:13 present+ Sam_Ruby 16:00:16 -msporny 16:00:18 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:00:19 Attendees were ShaneM, Sam, +1.540.641.aaaa, msporny, Ralph 16:00:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:01:07 present+ Ralph_Swick 16:01:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:01:37 zakim, bye 16:01:37 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:01:40 rrsagent, bye 16:01:40 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:01:40 ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214 [1] 16:01:40 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc#T15-31-58 16:01:40 ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright [2] 16:01:40 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc#T15-34-04