IRC log of webapps on 2009-06-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:29:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:29:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:29:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:29:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAPP
18:29:32 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:29:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:29:33 [trackbot]
Date: 03 June 2009
18:29:44 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be D3E
18:29:44 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shepazu
18:29:56 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be DOM3
18:29:56 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
18:30:06 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
18:30:06 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
18:30:07 [Zakim]
IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
18:30:08 [Zakim]
18:31:00 [Zakim]
18:32:55 [Travis]
Travis has joined #webapps
18:33:14 [smaug]
is there a call today?
18:33:30 [Travis]
18:33:34 [smaug]
just a minute
18:38:13 [smaug]
ok, now I need to find the phonenumber...
18:40:11 [Zakim]
18:40:23 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:40:23 [Zakim]
+smaug; got it
18:40:29 [shepazu]
Zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis
18:40:29 [Zakim]
+Travis; got it
18:45:35 [MSjacob]
MSjacob has joined #webapps
18:45:51 [shepazu]
Zakim, [Microsoft] also has MSjacob
18:45:51 [Zakim]
sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
18:46:07 [shepazu]
Zakim, Travis also has MSjacob
18:46:07 [Zakim]
+MSjacob; got it
18:46:27 [shepazu]
scribeNic: MSjacob
18:46:40 [shepazu]
scribeNick: MSjacob
18:47:00 [shepazu]
Topic: new telcon times
18:47:37 [shepazu]
shepazu: we have a new participant, Daniel from Google Wave
18:49:06 [MSjacob]
shepazu: flexible on new telcom time
18:51:46 [MSjacob]
shepazu: Send preferences for telcom times to www-DOM mailing list.
18:52:21 [MSjacob]
Topic: Mutation Events
18:52:42 [MSjacob]
shepazu: useful, pain, not performant
18:52:46 [MSjacob]
Travis: can't deprecate
18:52:57 [MSjacob]
shepazu: can put something in place to replace them
18:53:15 [MSjacob]
shepazu: shouldn't change the way they work now
18:53:19 [MSjacob]
Travis: agree
18:53:29 [MSjacob]
shepazu: bad perf better than breaking content
18:53:54 [MSjacob]
Travis: are all mutation events slow?
18:54:50 [MSjacob]
shepazu: will put in spec the ones that perform slowly, use these that operate better
18:55:57 [MSjacob]
Travis: JS Ninjas proposed alternate API (maybe from Dean Edwards) watchSelector, mutation event w/ callback based on a filter
18:56:19 [MSjacob]
Travis: probably use cases for this and the mutation events
18:56:31 [MSjacob]
Travis: selector based solution doesn't let you watch attributes
18:56:44 [MSjacob]
Travis: workaround: use x path
18:57:30 [MSjacob]
Travis: mostly need to know when one node changes
18:58:45 [MSjacob]
shepazu: steve sauders says CSS selectors end up being "malperformant" because people don't realize there are optimal and suboptimal ways of selecting
18:59:19 [MSjacob]
shepazu: after dev, will this selector-based solution actually be more performant?
19:01:31 [MSjacob]
Travis: it could be
19:02:08 [MSjacob]
shepazu: should have conversation on mailing list, if someone can implement it would be great to work on facts
19:02:29 [MSjacob]
Travis: could try to harvest feedback on mutation events, if there is a problem we could solve w/ a new performant mutation event we could just add that
19:02:39 [MSjacob]
Travis: maybe officially deprecate but wouldn't be obsolete
19:03:00 [MSjacob]
smaug: agree
19:04:06 [MSjacob]
shepazu: two reports from mozilla: we dont have plans to implement DOMsubtreemodified, we might even remove some of the others
19:04:43 [MSjacob]
shepazu: probably very small X-browser mutation events
19:04:54 [MSjacob]
Travis: doesn't say we don't include in DOM L3 events
19:05:30 [MSjacob]
Travis: action to start dicuss on mailing list about possible additional solutions that solve the mut. events problem, find existing perf problems and maybe ways to solve them
19:05:55 [smaug]
19:06:11 [smaug]
Gecko does support DOMSubtreeModified
19:06:21 [smaug]
I implemented it :p
19:06:59 [MSjacob]
Travis: would love to see more edits of spec as they come
19:07:25 [MSjacob]
shepazu: hixie requested more explanation of what each event should do and when it should be fired
19:07:48 [MSjacob]
shepazu: next thing to go through and add more detail about the events
19:09:18 [MSjacob]
shepazu: jacob: come up with stuff on your own, run things by the rest of team
19:09:30 [MSjacob]
Travis: and doug and the rest of the guys
19:09:53 [shepazu]
Action: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas
19:09:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-350 - Send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
19:10:05 [MSjacob]
shepazu: action for Travis: send in proposal from the JS (CSS) Ninjas
19:11:01 [MSjacob]
Topic: diagrams, because they are pretty
19:11:16 [MSjacob]
Travis: did you use SVG?
19:11:31 [MSjacob]
shepazu: yes
19:12:08 [shepazu]
19:13:02 [MSjacob]
shepazu: added window and made more pretty to events flow
19:13:13 [MSjacob]
Travis: beautiful
19:13:39 [MSjacob]
Travis: do these events bubble outside windows (like window in window)
19:13:42 [MSjacob]
shepazu: they don't
19:13:52 [MSjacob]
shepazu: if you have an iframe, it will not leave the iframe
19:14:06 [MSjacob]
shepazu: maybe in HTML5, hixie might have provided a way to do that
19:14:28 [MSjacob]
Travis: i think IE does do something like that
19:14:38 [MSjacob]
shepazu: one exception maybe, in same domain
19:14:47 [MSjacob]
shepazu: should be secure, but shouldn't do it in other scenarios
19:15:05 [MSjacob]
Travis: makes sense
19:15:33 [MSjacob]
shepazu: maybe worth noting events do not bubble outside the window
19:16:04 [MSjacob]
shepazu: by default, events do not bubble outside window. Under certain circumstances, a user agent may allow this when it's determined not to be a security risk
19:16:33 [MSjacob]
Travis: jacob needs to look at seamless
19:17:15 [MSjacob]
shepazu: unrelated, for svg we're looking at a way to do parameters. for example, a button you want to reuse but alter params.
19:18:34 [MSjacob]
shepazu: useful way of messaging things between frames
19:19:28 [shepazu]
19:19:40 [shepazu]
19:21:05 [MSjacob]
shepazu: first one may be nice and pretty but not as accurate
19:22:02 [MSjacob]
shepazu: first chart attempt at indicating how the text input is generated
19:22:17 [MSjacob]
Travis: I think we need to do the same thing for IEs moddle
19:22:24 [MSjacob]
shepazu: please do
19:23:13 [MSjacob]
shepazu: if we can get b/w IE and Mozilla teams (and maybe Daniel from Google Wave) to provide script library to let people use new model on older stuff and go forward with this new model
19:23:17 [MSjacob]
Travis: I love it
19:24:04 [MSjacob]
shepazu: rare opportunity to get it right in a majority of languages. will also bring in a intern'l expert in on this.
19:24:23 [MSjacob]
shepazu: do we black box it or actually work up an IME model
19:24:52 [MSjacob]
Travis: If there's a great public IME creation system, that would be great
19:25:45 [MSjacob]
shepazu: Certain points on a slower connection that you might want to only do things after certain chars (like a space after a word in an AJAX lookup scenario)
19:26:07 [MSjacob]
Travis: looks like the FF one is pretty accurate. Need to do some thought analysis on this.
19:26:18 [MSjacob]
shepazu: happy to prettify / unify these
19:26:43 [MSjacob]
shepazu: would like to include as appendix in DOM3 events for interest in the old models
19:27:27 [MSjacob]
shepazu: smaug make sure yours is accurate, Travis MSjacob make a similar one for IE
19:27:35 [MSjacob]
shepazu: then I will try to unify
19:28:03 [shepazu]
Action: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram
19:28:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-351 - Confirm gecko keyflow diagram [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-06-10].
19:28:30 [shepazu]
Action: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram
19:28:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-352 - Create and send in IE keyflow diagram [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
19:29:06 [MSjacob]
shepazu: don't forget to send in preferred times for telecon
19:29:19 [MSjacob]
shepazu: any other questions
19:29:27 [MSjacob]
Travis: link to spec is latest editors draft?
19:29:29 [MSjacob]
shepazu: yes
19:29:47 [MSjacob]
Travis: are the parts that are more/less stable that should be focused on?
19:29:59 [MSjacob]
shepazu: unstable: mutation events, keyboard events
19:30:14 [MSjacob]
shepazu: and wheel events
19:30:23 [MSjacob]
Travis: never closed on line/pixel scrolling
19:30:33 [MSjacob]
shepazu: got into ideas in different kinds of wheel events
19:30:56 [MSjacob]
shepazu: more stable: mouse events
19:31:05 [MSjacob]
shepazu: people have asked for additional mouse events
19:31:40 [MSjacob]
shepazu: plans for more advanced ui events (multi touch, pen and tablet)
19:32:32 [shepazu]
19:32:42 [MSjacob]
shepazu: should consult with waycom
19:33:05 [MSjacob]
shepazu: hoping to get them involved in what they want to see on the web
19:33:17 [MSjacob]
shepazu: right now they deal with designers on the desktop, but things are moving to the web
19:35:53 [Zakim]
19:49:43 [Zakim]
19:49:44 [Zakim]
19:49:45 [Zakim]
IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has ended
19:49:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, Travis, MSjacob
20:00:58 [shepazu]
trackbot, make minutes
20:00:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to for help
20:01:08 [shepazu]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shepazu
20:03:21 [annevk]
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20:10:26 [ArtB]
shepazu, when do you plan to publish a new WD of D3E?
20:10:56 [ArtB]
nice diagram, btw :)
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