IRC log of xhtml on 2009-06-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:51:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
11:51:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to
11:51:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:51:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
11:51:22 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
11:51:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
11:51:23 [trackbot]
Date: 02 June 2009
11:52:07 [Roland]
11:52:18 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
11:57:27 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #xhtml
12:00:50 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
12:00:57 [Zakim]
12:01:08 [Zakim]
12:01:12 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:01:12 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:01:13 [Zakim]
12:19:46 [Steven]
12:22:46 [Tina]
Tina has joined #xhtml
12:24:59 [Steven]
12:27:24 [Zakim]
12:28:14 [Steven]
12:28:47 [mgylling]
[hmm, got disconnected]
12:29:04 [Steven]
In any case he is not yet online
12:29:13 [Steven]
though I spoke to him an hour or so ago
12:31:41 [mgylling]
... and heres another +1 for relaxng
12:31:45 [Steven]
Well, it's good to have some Ralxing expertise around
12:32:01 [Steven]
Masayasu used to be our relax expert
12:34:27 [mgylling]
I know relaxng quite well too (consider it my second tongue after swedish)
12:35:16 [Zakim]
12:36:08 [Zakim]
12:36:09 [Zakim]
12:36:09 [Zakim]
12:36:10 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended
12:36:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Markus, Roland, Steven
12:36:23 [MoZ]
what happened ?
12:36:28 [Steven]
We're dropping the call until Shane arrives
12:36:47 [Steven]
staying in the IRC channel
12:36:49 [MoZ]
ok please ping me when you're back so
12:38:08 [Steven]
13:02:25 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
13:02:32 [Zakim]
13:04:52 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:05:11 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here
13:05:11 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
13:05:14 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here?
13:05:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM
13:05:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot
13:05:31 [Tina]
ShaneM: Steven is on a school run, I believe; I'll call in when lunch is done.
13:05:47 [ShaneM]
13:08:01 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
13:09:36 [Zakim]
13:09:49 [alessio]
zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
13:09:49 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:10:30 [Zakim]
13:12:18 [alessio]
hi all, wasn't it at 13.00 UTC?
13:14:38 [ShaneM]
13:14:57 [ShaneM]
Steven is tied up for a little while. roland, what's your plan
13:15:09 [alessio]
ok... thx shane
13:17:39 [Tina]
... my phone is broken, again. I'm IRC only, folks.
13:17:52 [Steven]
13:18:45 [ShaneM]
hey steven. some of us are here - just waiting on you and roland.
13:19:41 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:19:42 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:19:43 [Zakim]
13:20:44 [Steven]
Given the number of issues we need to review in order to resubmit the PERs, I request that we schedule another 4 hour vF2F meeting. I suggest we try to do it Tuesday, 2 June at noon UTC:
13:22:20 [Zakim]
13:22:35 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
13:22:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Roland
13:22:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot
13:23:22 [Steven]
We are starting, MoZ, Alessio, Tina, mgylling
13:23:55 [Zakim]
13:24:09 [alessio]
zakim, ??P7 is Alessio
13:24:09 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:24:20 [ShaneM]
13:24:30 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
13:24:38 [Steven]
Shane: I reduced the list to 11 issues
13:25:23 [Steven]
Shane: We received a formal objection from Ian Hickson
13:25:47 [Steven]
Steven: About text/html?
13:26:00 [Steven]
SHane: Yes, he doesn't like it
13:26:05 [Steven]
13:26:27 [Steven]
Steven: I believe that doesn't have to be a show-stopper
13:26:43 [Steven]
Shane: And there is Bjoern's mail, that wasn't sent to us
13:27:19 [Tina]
ShaneM: do we have a link to the formal objection?
13:27:19 [Steven]
Steven: I haven't checked it rigorously, but I believe that points to issues he had already sent us
13:27:31 [Steven]
... but we should make sure
13:28:07 [Steven]
... that all his issues made it into the issue tracker
13:28:16 [Steven]
Shane: Agreed
13:28:37 [Steven]
Shane: So we have 11 issues that we should look at
13:29:48 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8407
13:31:07 [Steven]
Shane: I replied to this ages ago
13:31:16 [Steven]
... anyway appx C is gone
13:32:06 [Steven]
Steven: Who, quite honestly is going to misundertand this?
13:32:12 [Steven]
13:33:15 [Steven]
Shane: We replied, he didn't answer, what do we do?
13:33:26 [Steven]
Steven: we have followed process. Issue closed
13:33:44 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 6227
13:33:55 [Steven]
13:34:12 [Steven]
Shane: Marked as closed, but
13:34:41 [Steven]
... we advise against the XML declaration
13:35:00 [Steven]
... and say use UTF 8 or a higher-level protocol
13:35:28 [Steven]
... he asks a question, Steven replied, he didn't respond. Therefore we have met process.
13:36:01 [Steven]
Steven: Issue closed
13:36:06 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 703
13:36:15 [Steven]
13:36:54 [Steven]
Shane: THis is an error in the DTD
13:36:57 [Steven]
13:37:08 [Steven]
s/is is an/This is an
13:37:32 [Steven]
Shane: The DTD has been fixed
13:38:00 [Steven]
... is it OK for a PER?
13:38:13 [Steven]
Steven: Yes, it doesn't break any browsers, it was a clear error
13:38:39 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 6674
13:38:47 [Steven]
13:38:57 [ShaneM]
13:38:57 [Steven]
Shane: there is an updated editors'draft
13:39:06 [Steven]
s/draft/ draft/
13:39:39 [ShaneM]
Updated references section is at
13:39:41 [Steven]
... I have split the references into informative and normative
13:39:52 [Steven]
... need an OK from you
13:41:20 [Steven]
... POSIX is for MAY, SHOULD etc
13:42:09 [Steven]
... there was a formal objection because the objector wanted us to point to 5th edition
13:42:28 [Steven]
... but we decided against that because of the change to name token
13:42:38 [Steven]
s/edition/edition of XML/
13:43:39 [Steven]
Stevrn|: I remember having that discussion
13:43:50 [Steven]
13:44:57 [Steven]
... isn't 5th edition just v1.1 back ported to 1.0?
13:45:28 [Steven]
Shane: Regardless
13:46:13 [Steven]
Steven: We deliberately made this decision, so I think we should defend it at the transition call
13:46:56 [Steven]
... I mean, the real thing we are trying to achieve here is adding schemas
13:47:28 [Steven]
Shane: Anyone object to pointing to 4th edition?
13:47:45 [Steven]
13:48:20 [Steven]
Shane: we refer to 2e of namespaces, an obvious improvement
13:49:36 [Steven]
Shane: Are there any of the informative refs things that have to be normative? (I will update the ref to M12N)
13:50:13 [Steven]
... some of them aren't even referenced
13:50:23 [Steven]
Steven: Chop ém out then.
13:51:00 [Steven]
... they may be leftovers from appx C
13:51:09 [Steven]
13:51:15 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:51:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
13:51:33 [Steven]
Shane: Fixing them now
13:52:56 [Steven]
... three left, MIME, MOD, and MathML
13:52:59 [Steven]
Steven: Looks good
13:53:59 [Steven]
... closes this issue
13:54:02 [Steven]
Shane: I will reply
13:54:38 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 9110
13:54:39 [Steven]
13:58:11 [alessio]
13:59:24 [Steven]
Shane: Tobias asked us to fix it in XHTML2
13:59:55 [Steven]
... but Jim Ley brings it to XHTML 1
14:00:09 [ShaneM]
I said "objects are independent entities within the page. Navigation is local to the
14:00:09 [ShaneM]
object and its own processing. This is defined in HTML 4."
14:00:15 [Steven]
... but I claim it is an HTML 4 problem
14:01:29 [Steven]
... where the question is already answered
14:01:40 [Steven]
Steven: Good answer
14:04:31 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8411
14:04:31 [Steven]
14:04:37 [MoZ]
Moz : I'm with 4th edition. Since Namespace with XML is still not in sync with 5th edition
14:04:49 [Steven]
Steven: Thanks MOz, that is good
14:04:54 [Steven]
14:08:00 [Zakim]
14:10:09 [ShaneM]
14:10:13 [Steven]
Steven: lang and xml:lang are normatively edfined elsewhere; I think it would be wrong to normatively define anything here
14:10:24 [Steven]
14:10:45 [Steven]
... if you use both, with different values, well, that's your own silly fault
14:11:28 [Steven]
Markus: Are the datatypes the same?
14:11:44 [Steven]
Shane: I think one is a subset of the other
14:12:04 [Steven]
... so it is possible to have a value of xml:lang that is not a legal value of @lang
14:12:13 [Steven]
... (in theory)
14:13:55 [Steven]
Steven: Didn't we want both lang and xml:lang for the same reason as name/id
14:14:17 [Steven]
Shane: There is a difference, largely because of accessibility software
14:14:43 [Steven]
... we were trying to be good XML citizens by including xml:lang
14:15:57 [Zakim]
irc bot restart will be required to re-connect with bridge for participant info. Restart will NOT be done immediately unless there is a consensus (tell #sysreq on irc) to do so.
14:16:26 [MoZ]
You have no choice to use xml:lang. It comes with XML 1.0 (as well as xml:space)
14:16:45 [Steven]
Steven: If we change the wording on this now, we would be leaving PER territory
14:16:52 [ShaneM]
Good point. In XHTML 1.1 we say "This specification also adds the lang attribute to the I18N attribute collection as defined in [XHTMLMOD]. The lang attribute is defined in [HTML4]. When this attribute and the xml:lang are specified on the same element, the xml:lang takes precedence. When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they SHOULD have the same value."
14:16:55 [Zakim]
... Irc bot restart does not affect the actual telecon
14:16:55 [Steven]
... it could invalidate existing UAs
14:18:28 [Steven]
Steven: In XHTML 1.1, we are expanding the number of allowable documents, and not invalidating existing UAs
14:19:46 [Steven]
Shane: Section c.7 has been removed, so the comment doesn't apply
14:20:13 [Steven]
Steven: It does, because he wanted something added to the normative requirements
14:20:56 [Steven]
... which is out of scope, because these attributes are defined elsewhere
14:21:24 [Steven]
... and I will argue that at the transition call
14:22:13 [Steven]
5 mins break for coffee
14:22:15 [Zakim]
14:25:50 [Zakim]
14:27:52 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
14:30:48 [Steven]
14:31:46 [Steven]
Topic: Removed anchors
14:32:04 [Steven]
Shane: WHat do we do; I have kept the anchors with a pointer to the place where they now are
14:32:13 [Steven]
Roland: That's the best we can do
14:32:51 [Steven]
SHane: He's written a validator against appx C, and that broke the error messages in his validator
14:32:56 [Steven]
14:33:36 [Tina]
Who wrote a 'validator' ?
14:33:48 [Steven]
14:34:45 [Steven]
Steven: This isn't the first time this has happened with a W3C spec (anchors changing)
14:35:06 [Steven]
Shane: Well, they don't get a 404
14:35:12 [Steven]
Topic: 6593
14:35:19 [Steven]
14:38:21 [Steven]
14:38:33 [Zakim]
14:39:03 [ShaneM]
sorry - just a minute
14:39:06 [Steven]
Steven: We defer to XML on the definition of whitespace
14:39:10 [ShaneM]
zakim, what is the code?
14:39:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
14:39:15 [Steven]
... and even point that out in 4.7
14:39:34 [Zakim]
14:42:07 [Zakim]
14:42:14 [alessio]
zakim, ??P10 is Alessio
14:42:14 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:42:14 [ShaneM]
14:46:04 [Steven]
Steven: I still think that XML definition of whitespace on input, and CSS definition on output is the good answer
14:47:24 [Steven]
... and not add anything else. The spec at 4.7 says exactly what it should do
14:47:53 [Steven]
Shane: Issue closed
14:48:16 [Steven]
... we are rejecting his request, no edits are associated with this change
14:48:43 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8285
14:48:44 [Steven]
14:49:56 [Steven]
Shane: Nothing to do with this document.
14:50:07 [Steven]
... Do we want to add a schema?
14:50:17 [Steven]
Steven: Let's not give ourselves any more work
14:50:33 [Steven]
Shane: OK, this comment is not associated with XHTL 1.0 anymore
14:50:56 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8415
14:51:02 [Steven]
14:51:02 [Steven]
14:53:50 [Steven]
Shane: I think he was misinterpreting this section
14:55:04 [ShaneM] item 3
14:56:11 [Steven]
Shane: It means "@name does not create a fragment identifier"
14:59:36 [Steven]
Steven: Looking at the wording of his comment, he is asking for changes wrt to appx C, which is gone. So I think the issue is closed
15:00:07 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 6397
15:00:15 [Steven]
15:00:20 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:01:33 [Steven]
Shane: I have made the changes
15:01:52 [Steven]
... they make no changes to an UA
15:02:12 [Steven]
... and anyway, all the datatypes map to CDATA anyway
15:02:23 [Steven]
15:04:07 [Steven]
Steven: So this is just editorial
15:04:20 [Steven]
... names of datatypes that are otherwise equivalent
15:04:27 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 7087
15:04:37 [Steven]
15:06:05 [Steven]
Steven: So we just take out the second part of the sentence
15:06:15 [Steven]
15:06:23 [Steven]
Shane: Yes, get rid of duplication
15:06:31 [Steven]
Steven: I can live with that
15:06:40 [Steven]
Shane: I will make that change
15:07:19 [Steven]
Shane: It is in an informative section anyway
15:07:29 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 6332
15:07:38 [Steven]
15:08:12 [Tina]
Which list is 6332 on?
15:08:28 [ShaneM]
6232 is in the voyager issues thing - Steven is getting a link now
15:08:39 [Tina]
15:09:34 [Steven];user=guest;selectid=6232;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:10:41 [ShaneM]
Ian's objection is here:
15:10:53 [Steven]
Steven: What can I say except that I disagree?
15:11:09 [Steven]
... ALl we do is give guidelines on getting documents to render in HTML UAs
15:11:17 [Steven]
15:12:37 [ShaneM]
5.1 in third edition current reads: XHTML Documents which follow the guidelines set forth in [XHTMLMIME] may be labeled with the Internet Media Type "text/html" [RFC2854], as they are compatible with most HTML browsers. Those documents, and any other document conforming to this specification, may also be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. For further information on using media types with XHTML, see the informativ
15:14:53 [ShaneM]
For information on delivering XHTML 1.0 Documents to user agents that do not natively handle this media type, see [XHTMLMIME] .
15:16:21 [ShaneM]
So the final text for 5.1 would read: XHTML 1.0 Documents should be be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. For information on delivering XHTML 1.0 Documents to user agents that do not natively handle this media type, see [XHTMLMIME] .
15:17:11 [ShaneM]
any objections to this text?
15:17:14 [Steven]
Steven: This is an informative section, right?
15:17:18 [Steven]
SHane: Yes
15:17:23 [Steven]
15:18:24 [Steven]
Shane: I'll suggest the change to the commentator
15:19:08 [Steven]
Shane: So we are done, modulo checking for missed comments, and checking new comments on the PERs
15:20:43 [Steven]
Topic: Any other comments
15:22:01 [Tina]
I have none
15:22:39 [ShaneM]
... Roland searches email archives ...
15:24:54 [Roland]
15:26:23 [Steven]
Shane: Yes, this is new
15:26:35 [Steven]
Roland: We'll talk about it when we get to 1.1
15:27:13 [Steven]
... it is in the wrong place, but let's add it to the issues system
15:29:00 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML 1.1 issues
15:29:08 [ShaneM]
15:29:36 [Steven]
Shane: There are 21 issues
15:29:43 [Steven]
... most trivial
15:29:52 [Steven]
... I haven't done the final pass
15:30:09 [Steven]
... first issue is @id on script
15:30:28 [Steven]
... fixed and closed
15:31:11 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8840
15:31:21 [Steven]
15:31:36 [Zakim]
irc bot will restart shortly; reinvite a minute or two after departure
15:33:26 [Steven]
Steven: HTML4 disallows these with exclusions
15:33:39 [Steven]
... and for XHTML we used English text
15:34:16 [Tina]
What's the reasoning behind that change?
15:36:17 [Steven]
TIna - because XML doesn't have exclusions
15:36:30 [Steven]
Steven: Oh but wait, Modularization uses exclusions!
15:36:35 [Steven]
Shane: We were so clever!
15:36:42 [Steven]
... we win!
15:37:47 [Steven]
... "Content exclusions should be defined by the rules in M12N, which can't be expressed in all schema grammars"
15:38:12 [MoZ]
That's where I think Relax NG + NVDL could help
15:38:42 [MoZ]
(It's more Relax NG + Schematron to be fair)
15:39:17 [ShaneM]
15:39:27 [Steven]
Shane: Ruby does it right too!
15:40:17 [Steven]
Steven: So the reply is that the spec is clear, and does the right thing
15:40:38 [ShaneM]
XHTML 1.1 references the XHTML M12N and Ruby Recommendations. Those Recommendations define content models using an abstract content model grammar, and these are specifically excluded already. While the underlying implementation(s) may not be able to enforce these exclusions because of limitations in their grammars, the restrictions are nontheless normative.
15:40:42 [Steven]
... using the definitions as required by M12N
15:40:57 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
15:42:12 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 6242
15:42:23 [Steven]
15:42:42 [Steven]
15:43:01 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 587
15:43:03 [Steven]
15:44:32 [Steven]
Shane: We don't make changes to work round bugs in software
15:44:35 [Steven]
... wrong approach
15:44:49 [Steven]
Steven: Agreed
15:45:15 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 614
15:45:18 [Steven]
15:45:31 [Steven]
Shane: Fixed
15:45:58 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8341
15:45:59 [Steven]
15:46:58 [Steven]
Roland: Keep it as is
15:47:29 [Steven]
Steven: We could consider it for XHTML2
15:47:39 [Steven]
... it has a reasonable use-case
15:47:58 [Steven]
... this would take us out of PER territory
15:48:12 [alessio]
zakim, who's here?
15:48:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #xhtml
15:48:45 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:48:48 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is
15:48:50 [Roland]
15:48:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Steven, trackbot
15:49:03 [Steven]
zakim, this is team_XHTML
15:49:04 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not see a conference named 'team_XHTML' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:49:08 [Steven]
zakim, list
15:49:10 [Zakim]
I see WF_()10:00AM, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z, SW_SWD()11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM active
15:49:13 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM, INC_RWAB()11:00AM, MWI_TSWG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(COI)11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM
15:49:17 [Steven]
zakim, this is xhtml
15:49:20 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; that matches Team_(xhtml)12:00Z
15:49:26 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:49:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P22, Steven, Roland, ShaneM
15:49:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, ShaneM, Tina, mgylling, RRSAgent, Roland, MoZ, Steven, trackbot
15:49:40 [alessio]
zakim, ??P22 is Alessio
15:49:42 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
15:49:42 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 656
15:49:43 [Steven]
15:49:51 [Steven]
Shane: Fixed
15:50:15 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 8422
15:50:16 [Steven]
15:50:42 [Steven]
Shane: We have an objection because this is not fixed
15:51:31 [Steven]
Roland: You think we should be pragmatic
15:51:49 [Steven]
Shane: Yes, we should just do what UAs do now
15:53:14 [Steven]
15:54:49 [Steven]
Steven: The tests make it look like it should be a URI ref
15:55:06 [ShaneM]
<img usemap="lala">
15:56:27 [Steven]
Shane: external references have never been implemented
15:56:39 [Steven]
... so this wouldn't affect current implementations
15:56:57 [Steven]
Shane: You have to change this in m12n
15:57:22 [ShaneM]
15:57:33 [Steven]
Steven: then the issue is on the wrong spec
15:57:43 [Steven]
Shane: Then I'll move it there
15:58:23 [Steven]
Topic: 472
15:58:30 [Steven]
15:58:46 [Steven]
Shane: Editorial; fixed
15:59:07 [Steven]
Topic: 9716
15:59:08 [Steven]
15:59:10 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [Steven]
Shane: Handle this tomorrow
15:59:46 [Steven]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:54 [Zakim]
15:59:54 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended
15:59:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Steven, Roland, ShaneM, Alessio
16:00:09 [Steven]
16:00:17 [Steven]
16:00:27 [Steven]
16:00:40 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:00:56 [Steven]
16:01:14 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:01:54 [Roland]
Roland has left #xhtml
16:03:12 [ShaneM]
thanks folks!!!
16:03:32 [mgylling]
Bye all...
16:03:42 [mgylling]
mgylling has left #xhtml
16:05:04 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
16:13:57 [ShaneM]
FWIW usemap is %URI in XHTML 1.0 strict
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