IRC log of swxg on 2009-05-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
12:58:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-irc
12:58:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:58:30 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
12:58:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
12:58:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
12:58:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
12:58:36 [trackbot]
Date: 27 May 2009
12:59:07 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
12:59:07 [Zakim]
sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is
12:59:31 [rreck]
7994?
12:59:36 [jsalvachua]
jsalvachua has joined #swxg
12:59:42 [rreck]
libby: 7994 i think
12:59:48 [dom]
zakim, code?
12:59:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
12:59:59 [libby]
thanks rreck
13:00:00 [jsalvachua]
Hello to all
13:00:06 [tinkster]
zakim, who's here?
13:00:06 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, tinkster
13:00:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jsalvachua, Zakim, RRSAgent, cperey, rreck, libby, adam, caribou, hhalpin, tpa, petef, melvster, mischat, tinkster, karl, trackbot, dom, AlexPassant
13:00:15 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
13:00:15 [Zakim]
sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is
13:00:17 [hhalpin]
7996 libby
13:00:29 [tinkster]
zakim, this is SWXG
13:00:29 [Zakim]
ok, tinkster; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:00:30 [hhalpin]
no, 7994.
13:00:39 [Zakim]
+Hakan
13:00:40 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
13:00:41 [Zakim]
tinkster should now be muted
13:00:43 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:00:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin
13:00:55 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
13:01:09 [Zakim]
+ +7.942.aacc
13:01:26 [Zakim]
+??P20
13:01:35 [Zakim]
+Carine
13:01:41 [Zakim]
+jsalvachua
13:01:45 [tinkster]
How does this IPcaller thing work then? Does Zakim have a SIP interface?
13:01:48 [jsalvachua]
zakim, mute me
13:01:50 [hajons]
hajons has joined #swxg
13:01:53 [Zakim]
jsalvachua should now be muted
13:01:59 [Zakim]
+??P24
13:02:09 [petef]
zakim, who is talking?
13:02:11 [Zakim]
+ +4222aadd
13:02:15 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who is making noise?
13:02:20 [Zakim]
petef, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (61%), ??P20 (4%), ??P24 (85%)
13:02:31 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (10%), ??P24 (24%)
13:02:35 [petef]
zakim p24 is me
13:02:58 [Zakim]
+ +0798919aaee
13:03:10 [mischat]
Zakim: +0798919aaee is mischat
13:03:19 [mischat]
zakim, +0798919aaee is mischat
13:03:19 [Zakim]
+mischat; got it
13:03:20 [petef]
zakim, +4222aadd is me
13:03:21 [adam]
yeah
13:03:22 [Zakim]
+petef; got it
13:03:29 [libby]
zakim, +7.942.aacc is me (I think)
13:03:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+7.942.aacc is me (I think)', libby
13:03:31 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
13:03:31 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
13:03:34 [libby]
zakim, +7.942.aacc is me
13:03:34 [Zakim]
+libby; got it
13:04:23 [petef]
zakim, mute me
13:04:23 [Zakim]
petef should now be muted
13:04:24 [mischat]
zakim, who is making noise
13:04:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is making noise', mischat
13:04:38 [tinkster]
That's not our anthem though.
13:04:52 [mischat]
zakim, who is making noise?
13:04:54 [Zakim]
+karl
13:05:02 [Zakim]
mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (29%), ??P24 (31%)
13:05:12 [claudio]
claudio has joined #swxg
13:05:13 [Zakim]
+ +49.173.515.aaff
13:05:15 [karl]
zakim, mute karl
13:05:15 [Zakim]
karl should now be muted
13:05:16 [hhalpin]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.rdf
13:05:16 [Zakim]
working on it, hhalpin
13:05:19 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, hhalpin
13:06:02 [hhalpin]
OK, we should probably begin now
13:06:03 [mischat]
the sound is terrible
13:06:03 [rreck]
i nominated chime to scribe
13:06:24 [hhalpin]
Zakim, whose making noise?
13:06:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
13:06:28 [petef]
sorry that's me
13:06:29 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who is making noise?
13:06:32 [mischat]
zakim, who's making noise?
13:06:40 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (67%), ??P24 (9%)
13:06:47 [rreck]
me too
13:06:50 [Zakim]
mischat, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:06:59 [hhalpin]
is everyone having trouble just *hearing* other people.
13:07:03 [tinkster]
All I can hear is a strange humming noise.
13:07:04 [hhalpin]
Perhaps we should do a quick go around.
13:07:10 [rreck]
it probably worthwile to start 5 minutes earlier with this many participants
13:07:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, whose on the phone?
13:07:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
13:07:33 [mischat]
+1 humming noise
13:07:36 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who is one the phone?
13:07:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
13:07:42 [rreck]
humming
13:07:45 [mischat]
hello !
13:07:46 [hhalpin]
Maybe it's me
13:07:46 [tinkster]
zakim, who's here?
13:07:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P5, AdamB, tinkster (muted), Hakan, hhalpin, libby, ??P20, Carine, jsalvachua (muted), ??P24 (muted), petef (muted), mischat (muted), karl (muted),
13:07:49 [Zakim]
... +49.173.515.aaff
13:07:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see claudio, hajons, jsalvachua, Zakim, RRSAgent, cperey, rreck, libby, adam, caribou, hhalpin, tpa, petef, melvster, mischat, tinkster, karl, trackbot, dom, AlexPassant
13:07:51 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:07:51 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:07:55 [rreck]
whew
13:07:55 [hhalpin]
Is the humming noise gone?
13:07:58 [rreck]
yes
13:07:59 [mischat]
yes
13:08:00 [jsalvachua]
yes
13:08:00 [tinkster]
humming gone
13:08:05 [petef]
zakim, unmute me
13:08:05 [Zakim]
petef should no longer be muted
13:08:07 [hhalpin]
Ah, perhaps it is some sort of weird Skype bug on my end.
13:08:08 [Zakim]
-??P20
13:08:20 [rreck]
call in again perhaps
13:08:30 [hhalpin]
OK, I'll just mute in and out
13:08:33 [jsalvachua]
is environement noise captured by microphone
13:08:38 [mischat]
ah, you need headphoen if you are using skype you get feedback from laptop mic -> laptop speakers
13:08:43 [Zakim]
+??P20
13:08:46 [petef]
I don't seem to be able to unmute me
13:08:51 [Zakim]
+cperey
13:08:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute petef
13:08:55 [Zakim]
petef was not muted, hhalpin
13:09:09 [hhalpin]
OK, let's begin the meeting.
13:09:18 [mischat]
hello
13:09:19 [hhalpin]
but we need a scribe...
13:09:22 [petef]
I think perhaps I am P24?
13:09:22 [hhalpin]
do we have any volunteers?
13:09:23 [mischat]
i will scribe
13:09:27 [hhalpin]
Excellent mischat.
13:09:31 [cperey]
zakim mute me
13:09:38 [adam]
+1 mischat
13:09:43 [hhalpin]
Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z
13:09:44 [tinkster]
ScribeNick: mischat
13:09:44 [petef]
couldn't make out a word of that whoevere spoke
13:09:50 [tinkster]
Scribe: Mischa
13:09:52 [Zakim]
-cperey
13:10:00 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:10:00 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:10:02 [mischat]
someone say hello to him
13:10:06 [rreck]
i said hello
13:10:07 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:10:07 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:10:19 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:10:19 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:10:27 [Zakim]
+cperey
13:10:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:10:30 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:10:43 [petef]
zakim, unmute p24
13:10:43 [Zakim]
sorry, petef, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p24
13:10:44 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record
13:10:49 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:10:49 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:10:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:10:55 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:10:56 [petef]
yes
13:10:59 [hajons]
yes
13:11:00 [jsalvachua]
yes
13:11:01 [adam]
yes
13:11:04 [tinkster]
yes
13:11:05 [cperey]
yes
13:11:10 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record
13:11:17 [hhalpin]
(although notingg that DanBri should have cleaned them up)
13:11:25 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 3 June. scribe volunteer?
13:11:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:11:30 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:11:34 [mischat]
i think that danbri did, as per his last email
13:11:36 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:11:36 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:11:40 [hhalpin]
Scribe?
13:11:40 [mischat]
not me
13:11:43 [mischat]
:)
13:11:43 [tinkster]
not me
13:11:49 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:11:49 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:11:59 [mischat]
we could rotate people !
13:12:02 [adam]
i can do june 10th
13:12:03 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:12:03 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:12:03 [mischat]
+1
13:12:05 [tinkster]
I'm happy to scribe occasionally, but not next week.
13:12:16 [hhalpin]
OK, let's have adam provisionally as scribe for next meeting.
13:12:26 [mischat]
i have no voice input today, and am happy scribe as a result
13:12:29 [cperey]
I will scribe in the future but not June 3
13:12:43 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: move to a scribing list
13:12:48 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next item
13:12:48 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
13:12:51 [hhalpin]
Hmmm...
13:12:59 [hhalpin]
General Organization
13:13:02 [cperey]
i have no audio
13:13:12 [hhalpin]
unmute me
13:13:16 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:13:16 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:13:35 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Liaisons
13:13:39 [mischat]
hhalpin: is going through last week's actions
13:13:51 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:13:51 [Zakim]
hhalpin was not muted, hhalpin
13:13:54 [mischat]
apassant is a SPARQL liasion
13:13:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:13:55 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:13:59 [mischat]
in need of other ones ?
13:14:07 [hhalpin]
Do we have any volunteers?
13:14:12 [rreck]
are the groups that need liasons listed on the wiki?
13:14:16 [hhalpin]
Yes.
13:14:23 [tinkster]
I've put myself down for Microformats.
13:14:24 [cperey]
I only hear Harry, is anyone else speaking on this bridge?
13:14:24 [Zakim]
+ +2
13:14:26 [mischat]
are in need of liasons
13:14:36 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, +2 is me
13:14:36 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
13:14:36 [jsalvachua]
i may try to interface with dataportability.org
13:14:42 [hhalpin]
Ah, OK.
13:14:49 [hhalpin]
Could you add yourselves to the wiki?
13:15:16 [mischat]
jsalvachua: to be liaison with dataportability.org
13:15:25 [Zakim]
+ +039011228aahh
13:15:33 [mischat]
toby to be liason with the microformats community
13:15:43 [hhalpin]
\me Zakim, mute me
13:15:45 [petef]
zakim, unmute me
13:15:45 [Zakim]
petef was not muted, petef
13:15:45 [claudio]
+039011228aahh is claudio
13:15:56 [hhalpin]
C'mon no volunteers :(
13:15:59 [AlexPassant]
q+ to ask about SIOC liaisons
13:16:02 [petef]
I volunteered
13:16:07 [petef]
audio problems
13:16:08 [hhalpin]
Zakim, q+
13:16:08 [Zakim]
I see AlexPassant, hhalpin on the speaker queue
13:16:14 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ack
13:16:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ack', hhalpin
13:16:17 [hhalpin]
Zakim, q-
13:16:17 [Zakim]
I see AlexPassant on the speaker queue
13:16:19 [petef]
for Social Network Portability Group List
13:16:21 [jsalvachua]
i may help with other groups, with the vcard ietf group
13:16:27 [mischat]
renanto is on the wiki as the liason with "Policy Language Interest Group"
13:16:29 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ack AlexPassant
13:16:29 [Zakim]
AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about SIOC liaisons
13:16:30 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:16:36 [petef]
yes
13:16:37 [tinkster]
can hear
13:16:39 [mischat]
yes
13:17:01 [hhalpin]
\me Zakim, mute me
13:17:02 [mischat]
apassant, to find a person to be SOIC liaison
13:17:17 [uldis]
uldis has joined #swxg
13:17:24 [AlexPassant]
Uldis Bojars or John Breslin can be SIOC liaisons
13:17:28 [AlexPassant]
her's uldis
13:17:30 [cperey]
no sound
13:17:32 [hhalpin]
OK - could you check on them.
13:17:50 [hhalpin]
ACTION: AlexPassant to see about SIOC liason
13:17:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-15 - See about SIOC liason [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-06-03].
13:17:51 [uldis]
sounds good
13:17:53 [mischat]
AlexPassant to check to see if we can find a SIOC liaison
13:17:56 [rreck]
yeah call went silent
13:18:03 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:18:03 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:18:07 [Zakim]
-AlexPassant
13:18:13 [mischat]
i can hear you
13:18:15 [cperey]
I hear only Harry
13:18:18 [rreck]
i can hear you too
13:18:26 [petef]
I have added myself to wiki as volunteer liason for data portability, diso and social network portability
13:18:31 [hhalpin]
ACTION: [DONE] danbri sketch a 5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics)
13:18:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
13:18:33 [Zakim]
+ +2
13:18:34 [petef]
I *can't* speak
13:18:46 [petef]
Zakim has my number wrong :-(
13:18:48 [hhalpin]
ACTION: [DONE] karl to produce a template for TF deliverables.
13:18:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
13:18:50 [mischat]
zakim, unmute petef
13:18:50 [Zakim]
petef was not muted, mischat
13:18:59 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, +2 is me
13:18:59 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
13:19:03 [karl]
zakim, unmute me
13:19:03 [Zakim]
karl should no longer be muted
13:19:03 [hhalpin]
Karl - do you wish to explain your template?
13:19:07 [mischat]
Karl put together a template for the user stories
13:19:09 [hhalpin]
\me Zakim, mute me
13:19:17 [mischat]
karl has put up 2 templates
13:19:27 [rreck]
are user stories aka use cases?
13:19:31 [petef]
zakim, P24 is really me.
13:19:31 [Zakim]
sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'
13:19:31 [mischat]
yup rreck
13:19:40 [mischat]
so user stories seemed too long
13:19:57 [rreck]
i am developing a use case atm
13:20:02 [mischat]
karl suggests we should be concise and to the point
13:20:31 [cperey]
can someone put the URI to the templates into IRC
13:20:36 [tinkster]
Karl's template - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0103.html
13:20:42 [mischat]
goal of the templates are to speed up the writing
13:20:48 [cperey]
thanks Toby!
13:21:06 [mischat]
templates will give us a common look and feel
13:21:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.704.aajj
13:21:27 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
13:21:27 [Zakim]
tinkster was already muted, tinkster
13:21:37 [hhalpin]
\me Zakim, unmute me
13:21:39 [mischat]
Karl is open to comments/modifications re: the templates
13:22:09 [mischat]
hhalpin happy with the user stories templates
13:22:09 [petef]
how come petef.a not petef?
13:22:30 [mischat]
hhalpin would like a template for the final report to be put up on the wiki
13:22:39 [mischat]
harry asks if anyone has any experience in this ?
13:22:41 [hhalpin]
Does anyone have a final report template as well?
13:23:12 [hhalpin]
Does anyone want to take that action - i.e. finding a template for final deliverables?
13:23:21 [tinkster]
microformats.org write all specs on mediawiki - perhaps useful?
13:23:21 [mischat]
karl stated that someone should take an action to port the final report template to the wiki
13:23:52 [mischat]
can we not look at other XGs?
13:24:13 [AlexPassant]
can a chair close this action -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/14
13:24:22 [ivan]
ivan has joined #swxg
13:24:24 [adam]
i can take a stab at it
13:24:40 [hhalpin]
ACTION: adam to find a good final report template and port it to the wiki
13:24:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-16 - Find a good final report template and port it to the wiki [on Adam Boyet - due 2009-06-03].
13:24:56 [mischat]
hhalpin: adam seemed to suggest that he would look into the template
13:25:12 [hhalpin]
3. Task Forces
13:25:19 [mischat]
hhalpin asks if anyone has any comments re: the organisation so we can move onto the task force issue
13:25:45 [mischat]
Task force issues: should we merge context / privacy ?
13:25:47 [cperey]
zakim, unmute me
13:25:47 [Zakim]
cperey was not muted, cperey
13:25:55 [karl]
zakim, mute me
13:25:55 [Zakim]
karl should now be muted
13:25:56 [hhalpin]
Context and Privacy Task Force (Karl Dubost)? For Portability and Architectures Task Force (@@)?
13:26:07 [tinkster]
i/3. Task Forces/TOPIC: Task forces/
13:26:19 [mischat]
so, harry is asking if people like proposed task force titles
13:26:36 [petef]
Portability and Architectures - jsalvachua and petef volunteered last telecon.
13:26:39 [mischat]
cperey: has no preference for times, but thinks we need critical mass
13:26:50 [mischat]
and we need a clear agenda
13:27:07 [petef]
signing up to task forces where?
13:27:26 [petef]
zakim, unmute petef.a
13:27:26 [Zakim]
petef.a should no longer be muted
13:27:29 [hhalpin]
Maybe we could remind people to sign up for task forces
13:27:30 [karl]
zakim, unmute me
13:27:30 [Zakim]
karl should no longer be muted
13:27:30 [mischat]
cperey participation has gone down since the start of XG, cperey thinks we should find out how many people are interested in each Task force
13:27:41 [jsalvachua]
petef : we both may start together to push the task force
13:27:48 [mischat]
who is speaking ?
13:27:51 [karl]
karl *MAY* be the task force leader ;)
13:27:54 [petef]
zakim, mute me
13:27:54 [Zakim]
petef should now be muted
13:28:02 [cperey]
zakim, mute me
13:28:02 [Zakim]
cperey should now be muted
13:28:17 [mischat]
should we find out how many are interested in each task force
13:28:23 [petef]
I find this constant un/muting incredibly frustrating
13:28:43 [mischat]
I thought we had leaders ?
13:28:55 [tinkster]
Also interested in portability/arch but not leading.
13:28:59 [cperey]
I agree
13:29:06 [hhalpin]
Wiki page for each of these task forces?
13:29:06 [petef]
where?
13:29:10 [hhalpin]
I don't think we do.
13:29:13 [cperey]
what next is unclear!
13:29:14 [tinkster]
I can set up template wiki pages for them.
13:29:22 [mischat]
hhalpin: thinks we need a wiki page for the task forces
13:29:26 [petef]
I will draft one for portability and architectures
13:29:43 [hhalpin]
ACTION: tinkster to draft wiki pages for task forces
13:29:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-17 - Draft wiki pages for task forces [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-03].
13:29:48 [mischat]
toby to set up wiki page re task forces, and people should add what they are thinking
13:29:58 [petef]
caribou, how?
13:30:34 [petef]
OK, sorry, muted on skype
13:30:35 [jsalvachua]
zakim, unmute me
13:30:35 [Zakim]
jsalvachua should no longer be muted
13:30:36 [mischat]
portability task force, so hhalpin is interested in how the W3C can promote how data can be made portable
13:30:44 [petef]
Can anyone else hear feedback?
13:30:52 [mischat]
zakim, mute petef.a
13:30:52 [Zakim]
petef.a should now be muted
13:30:54 [karl]
zakim, mute me
13:30:54 [Zakim]
karl should now be muted
13:31:00 [mischat]
sorry petef.a
13:31:05 [hhalpin]
joaquin?
13:31:12 [jsalvachua]
i am not sure if you hear me
13:31:23 [petef]
No, I don't hear you
13:31:25 [mischat]
no i can only hear typing
13:31:28 [rreck]
i would be happy to contribute but would like to have the discussion on the list
13:31:30 [tinkster]
I can just hear typing.
13:31:54 [tinkster]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF
13:32:01 [petef]
Great
13:32:07 [mischat]
jsalvachua: said that he will try and populate the wiki, regarding a roadmap for the portability task froce
13:32:43 [hajons]
+q
13:32:47 [tinkster]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF
13:32:55 [hhalpin]
4. Invited Guests
13:32:57 [mischat]
I will put some stuff on the wiki for privacy task force
13:33:06 [hajons]
-q
13:33:44 [hhalpin]
Anyone else?
13:34:00 [mischat]
invited speaker lists have been populated for the widget topic and the Vcard topic, does anyone else have any ideas on this ?
13:34:30 [mischat]
hajons, asks if people should just write to the wiki, if they want to join a task force ?
13:34:41 [petef]
Yes, just sign up to task force on wiki page
13:34:42 [mischat]
or is there some other protocol
13:34:43 [hajons]
how do we join the task forces
13:34:49 [hajons]
ok
13:34:54 [adam]
maybe once the task force pages are created, each person can add themselves as a member
13:34:57 [adam]
of the task force
13:35:04 [hhalpin]
+1 adam
13:35:10 [mischat]
hhalpin states that we should just add names to the list of task forces on the wiki
13:35:16 [rreck]
i will join the privacy task force
13:35:22 [mischat]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF
13:35:25 [mischat]
;)
13:35:29 [rreck]
i dont feel capable of leading it
13:35:30 [mischat]
go toby
13:35:46 [Zakim]
- +1.631.704.aajj
13:36:00 [mischat]
are we going to have invited guest for privacy and context ?
13:36:20 [cperey]
zakim, unmute me
13:36:20 [Zakim]
cperey should no longer be muted
13:36:25 [mischat]
harry wodners if there is any mobile interest
13:36:30 [mischat]
from the group
13:36:35 [hajons]
yes, I will propose a guest on context / mobile
13:36:46 [hhalpin]
tim gave his regrets and daniel applequist can't make this meeting in particular :(
13:37:08 [hhalpin]
Perhaps you can explain what the OSLO group is?
13:37:19 [hhalpin]
Does it have a web-page?
13:37:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.877.aakk
13:37:31 [hhalpin]
Open Sharing of LOcations
13:37:39 [mischat]
christine, is interested the mobile technologies, and christine also contacted someone (?) external, and they are not interested in developing protocols
13:38:10 [mischat]
OSLO group announced start earlier this year, and they are NOT interested with speaking to W3C
13:38:11 [tinkster]
Open Sharing of Location-based Objects (OSLO) - http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/02/27/oslo-accord-pushes-location-sharing-between-social-networks/
13:38:31 [hhalpin]
Christine, perhaps stay in touch with them?
13:38:36 [caribou]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests
13:39:03 [mischat]
there are others which could speak to the w3c
13:39:13 [mischat]
but we need some specific questions
13:39:13 [hhalpin]
Maybe brainstorm on the wiki what specific questions would be relevant to these mobile operators?
13:39:25 [mischat]
so that christine could approach people
13:39:32 [mischat]
who is speaking ?
13:39:40 [rreck]
lubna
13:39:45 [tinkster]
zakim, who's making noise
13:39:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's making noise', tinkster
13:39:46 [rreck]
lubna dajani
13:39:57 [rreck]
she isnt on IRC yet
13:40:05 [rreck]
im trying to help her in another window
13:40:06 [mischat]
lubna said that she has contacts in the mobile space
13:40:07 [hhalpin]
Or what is part of their problems?
13:40:15 [hhalpin]
What could they need?
13:40:45 [mischat]
nokia people did context and mobile stuff, and I could ask Mor Naaman to talk about the Zonetag project
13:40:52 [mischat]
but i am out of touch with the mobile stuff
13:41:18 [mischat]
harry asked if we could have a wiki page / content regarding the mobile space
13:41:37 [hhalpin]
ACTION: cperey to add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting
13:41:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-18 - Add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting [on Christine Perey - due 2009-06-03].
13:41:38 [mischat]
christine would like an agenda to take to the mobile experts before contacting them
13:41:53 [mischat]
now moving to the next topic
13:41:55 [hhalpin]
5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki
13:41:57 [mischat]
UserStories
13:42:36 [cperey]
zakim, mute me
13:42:36 [Zakim]
cperey should now be muted
13:42:45 [mischat]
sorry my phone cut out for a bit
13:42:46 [mischat]
:)
13:43:15 [karl]
zakim, unmute me
13:43:15 [Zakim]
karl should no longer be muted
13:43:18 [hhalpin]
any more use-cases?
13:43:28 [mischat]
there is some work i emailed round from a chap from cambridge
13:43:48 [mischat]
which had some good examples of how privacy in the social web tends to look like
13:44:28 [mischat]
karl thinks that we should add some more user stories, so that we can get a feel for what the XG should be looking at
13:44:48 [mischat]
i can barely understand you karl i am sorry
13:44:51 [mischat]
:)
13:44:56 [rreck]
yes i will add a story
13:45:01 [hhalpin]
I feel we are still missing some use-cases regarding businesses and developers
13:45:11 [rreck]
i wanted to get privacy classes but no one answered my email
13:45:14 [mischat]
ah excellent point
13:45:16 [karl]
karl: we should take the current user stories and check them against the actual social networks such as frienfeed, facebook, etc.
13:45:24 [karl]
then we can see if our cases make sense
13:45:37 [karl]
and then we can identify if there are missing ones.
13:45:37 [mischat]
i posted about this
13:45:42 [rreck]
great idea
13:45:45 [tinkster]
I've got a developer story - I'll create an action for myself.
13:45:55 [mischat]
harry says that we should have a matrix
13:45:56 [rreck]
social network matrix
13:46:06 [tinkster]
ACTION tinkster to document developer stories on wiki.
13:46:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-19 - Document developer stories on wiki. [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-03].
13:46:10 [mischat]
showing how social networks uphold privacy
13:46:17 [mischat]
SO, i have pointed to a matrix
13:46:19 [caribou]
almost all the user stories that we have are related to privacy/data protection
13:46:20 [karl]
ACTION: karl to create the matix to be filled
13:46:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Create the matix to be filled [on Karl Dubost - due 2009-06-03].
13:46:21 [mischat]
we have developed at garlik
13:46:22 [rreck]
can someone help me find classes of privacy
13:46:32 [mischat]
but it is for government institutions
13:46:42 [mischat]
about what they do with your data
13:46:50 [hhalpin]
mischa - could we expland the matrix to deal with commercial social networks?
13:46:53 [mischat]
i could put to a similar oen for social networking sites
13:47:16 [hhalpin]
Maybe we could look through alexa to get out the top social networking sites.
13:47:19 [hhalpin]
I can do that...
13:47:28 [mischat]
karl says that he will put up a matrix based on the current user stories
13:47:36 [hhalpin]
ACTION: To retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa
13:47:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - To
13:47:48 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa
13:47:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].
13:47:55 [mischat]
so that people can look at each individual social networking sites
13:48:06 [cperey]
Karl, what criteria do you want for this list?
13:48:12 [cperey]
the "top" social networks?
13:48:21 [karl]
cperey: Alexa traffic
13:48:30 [cperey]
irrelevant
13:48:33 [cperey]
for mobile
13:48:37 [karl]
s/cperey:/cperey,/
13:48:45 [mischat]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites
13:48:48 [karl]
cperey, what would be your criteria? :)
13:48:59 [hhalpin]
how could we get the top X social networking sites for mobile?
13:48:59 [cperey]
Number of unique users per month
13:49:06 [hhalpin]
is that list available anywhere?
13:49:10 [cperey]
more relevant for all types of social networks
13:49:18 [mischat]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites
13:49:27 [cperey]
I have a list (not published)
13:49:34 [rreck]
wouldnt you just select out of the top 500 alexa sites?
13:49:45 [hhalpin]
I thin that list on wikipedia uses the company's own data, right?
13:49:51 [mischat]
there has been some work from cambridge
13:49:54 [mischat]
were they looked into
13:49:58 [karl]
I will do Mixi (social network in Japan) because I have an account and they don't open account to people outside Japan
13:49:59 [mischat]
social networking sites
13:50:01 [mischat]
T&Cs
13:50:03 [mischat]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8060407.stm
13:50:13 [mischat]
i would like to invite the phd student which did the work
13:50:14 [cperey]
this is a metrics question
13:50:16 [rreck]
humming is back
13:50:25 [mischat]
looking for the persons link
13:50:32 [hhalpin]
I'm happy to go through alexa if someone else will merge it with wikipedia and Christine's list
13:50:33 [mischat]
zakim, who is making noise ?
13:50:37 [cperey]
how do you measure a social network
13:50:44 [Zakim]
mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: karl (5%)
13:50:47 [hhalpin]
this is returning to the metric question
13:50:52 [karl]
zakim, mute me
13:50:52 [Zakim]
karl should now be muted
13:51:12 [cperey]
OK
13:51:14 [karl]
+1 for merging
13:51:18 [mischat]
+1 merging
13:51:20 [rreck]
+1 merging
13:51:22 [cperey]
30-50 social networks
13:51:32 [rreck]
yes that sounds reasonable
13:51:32 [hhalpin]
So we merge list from alexa\wikipedia with Christine's list?
13:51:32 [cperey]
by country? worldwide?
13:51:37 [rreck]
worldwide
13:51:44 [hhalpin]
I would assume world-wide at first, and then later we can break it down by country
13:51:45 [mischat]
hhalpin: asked if we could merge christine's list with the alexa rankign and the wikipedia list so as to pick 30 social networking sites
13:51:55 [hhalpin]
unless your data is already broken down by country Christine
13:52:05 [cperey]
I can work with Harry on this
13:52:12 [cperey]
zakim unmute me
13:52:25 [hhalpin]
zakim, unmute cperey
13:52:25 [Zakim]
cperey should no longer be muted
13:52:31 [mischat]
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/
13:52:48 [melvster]
I would suggest you also need IM based networks such as Skype, GTalk, XMPP, if they are not included already, as they have significant usage and maturity
13:52:50 [mischat]
cperey's data is broken down by country
13:53:14 [mischat]
cperey: on/deck and business models.
13:53:14 [hhalpin]
30 or 50?
13:53:23 [hhalpin]
Start with 30 and then build if needed?
13:53:26 [mischat]
cperey would be happy with 30
13:53:29 [mischat]
+1
13:53:35 [adam]
+1
13:53:46 [mischat]
cperey: will make a list of the last 30
13:53:47 [rreck]
top based on number of users?
13:53:57 [mischat]
i would like us to check their Terms and Conditions
13:54:10 [mischat]
and see if they actually abide by it
13:54:37 [MacTed]
MacTed has joined #swxg
13:54:38 [hhalpin]
ACTION: cperey to make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa
13:54:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa [on Christine Perey - due 2009-06-03].
13:54:54 [karl]
I'll have to find someone for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel
13:55:04 [hajons]
Christine, do you list mobile access as a feature too?
13:55:09 [Zakim]
-??P20
13:55:11 [hhalpin]
we do it as more of long-term action
13:55:17 [mischat]
cperey: data has information regarding social networking sites, and their features
13:55:21 [mischat]
not terms and conditions
13:55:24 [hhalpin]
does your list have the feature?
13:55:37 [hhalpin]
feature-criteria like instant-messaging, and all of that?
13:55:57 [mischat]
all of the social networking sites on christine's list are mobile centric
13:56:01 [hhalpin]
cperey: "PC-centric" vs. "mobile-centric" and then a continuum inbetween.
13:56:22 [karl]
what is a mobile access? specific software for mobile devices?
13:56:22 [rreck]
my cell does the same things as my PC
13:56:25 [hhalpin]
sounds good to me
13:56:31 [mischat]
cperey: will get her mobile-centric list and we should look at it
13:56:55 [hhalpin]
yes rreck, but some sites don't well with mobile phones if you don't have a gphone/iphone/other dataphone
13:57:06 [mischat]
and add an pc-centric social networkings site to the cperey's list
13:57:11 [Norm]
Norm has joined #swxg
13:57:14 [hhalpin]
can we check to see if any of these sites take advantage of user-context, like geolocation from mobile phone?
13:57:56 [mischat]
(not good at scribing)
13:57:57 [mischat]
!
13:58:00 [hhalpin]
Sounds great!
13:58:05 [Zakim]
+Norm
13:58:15 [mischat]
matrix of social networking site
13:58:18 [mischat]
and their features
13:58:21 [cperey]
where does this live?
13:58:36 [hhalpin]
we should a manufacture a wiki page for the list
13:58:37 [mischat]
we need a wiki page for this list
13:58:40 [cperey]
yes, please
13:58:52 [cperey]
yes, I will fill in
13:59:11 [cperey]
I need to sign off and go to another meeting, bye all
13:59:20 [petef]
bye cperey
13:59:25 [mischat]
vcard and portability issues will have its own discussion after this call
13:59:36 [hhalpin]
any more comments before we move to vcard?
13:59:42 [hhalpin]
such as things we are missing?
13:59:44 [mischat]
does anyone have any issues, there are lots of quiet people about?
13:59:47 [Zakim]
-tinkster
13:59:54 [mischat]
have we looked over anything
13:59:56 [tinkster]
Dammit. My phone's gone dead.
14:00:01 [tinkster]
Still on IRC though.
14:00:06 [mischat]
are we missing anything obvious ?
14:00:10 [Zakim]
-cperey
14:00:13 [rreck]
im not sure
14:00:22 [mischat]
this should be an ongoing process
14:00:30 [mischat]
if you think we are missing something
14:00:36 [hhalpin]
6. Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF
14:00:38 [mischat]
let the mailing list know
14:00:47 [rreck]
im trying to find classes of privacy and i cant be the first person to want them
14:01:12 [mischat]
rreck: look at this guys work http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/
14:01:15 [hhalpin]
One advantage of the vCard in RDF format (RDF Schema here) is it's use of RDF containers to allow complex vCard expressions. Should this be kept, and if so, how? Which ones, rdf:bag, rdf:Alt, rdf:Seq? How about its use of sub-structure?
14:01:47 [mischat]
I have to leave this call, it is 3
14:01:49 [Zakim]
-karl
14:01:51 [mischat]
:(
14:01:55 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf
14:01:57 [rreck]
mischat: ty
14:01:59 [hhalpin]
That's the older vCard in RDF format
14:02:06 [Zakim]
- +1.631.877.aakk
14:02:19 [tinkster]
Aren't rdf:Bag/rdf:Alt/rdf:Seq generally seen as poor cousins of rdf:List these days?
14:02:28 [Zakim]
-petef.a
14:02:44 [petef]
I have to leave too, bye
14:02:45 [hhalpin]
1) No use of containers in vCard at all
14:02:51 [hhalpin]
2) Using *only* rdf:List
14:02:52 [rreck]
why isnt rdf:bag enough
14:02:53 [tinkster]
If the order of items is important, use rdf:List, otherwise don't use a container at all.
14:03:01 [hhalpin]
3) Letting it all be a free for all.
14:03:03 [mischat]
i have to leave this chat now :(
14:03:06 [mischat]
i am sorry
14:03:07 [Zakim]
+??P10
14:03:13 [hhalpin]
Someone else can scribe?
14:03:23 [hhalpin]
Zakim, P10 is PeterMika
14:03:23 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
14:03:28 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P10 is PeterMika
14:03:28 [Zakim]
+PeterMika; got it
14:03:35 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:03:35 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:03:36 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:03:45 [mischat]
right i am sorry i am off now, you are less a scribe now
14:03:46 [mischat]
bye all
14:03:50 [Zakim]
-mischat
14:03:58 [hhalpin]
is there use for RDF containers?
14:04:11 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: vCard is 99 percent hCard
14:05:44 [Norm]
Really? Surely there are gobs of vcards out there never rendered in HTML at all
14:06:08 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: vCard in RDF is fairly minimal
14:06:18 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: Lots of hCard - between 1-2 billion URLs
14:06:33 [Zakim]
-Carine
14:06:35 [caribou]
caribou has left #swxg
14:06:45 [hhalpin]
Can you share the stats on the usage of the attribute?
14:07:04 [tinkster]
hhalpin: But 98% of those 1-2 billion URLs are presumably on a handful of domain names. Just a few script tweaks could change everything.
14:07:17 [Zakim]
- +49.173.515.aaff
14:07:34 [timbl]
timbl has joined #swxg
14:07:40 [hhalpin]
should we merge or not do data-typring?
14:08:00 [timbl]
Zakim, call timbl-office
14:08:00 [Zakim]
ok, timbl; the call is being made
14:08:02 [Zakim]
+Timbl
14:08:26 [hhalpin]
so for complex structure is the older version better?
14:09:30 [hhalpin]
do we need or/want to substructure?
14:09:31 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
14:09:31 [Zakim]
sorry, tinkster, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:09:45 [hhalpin]
I thin Renato had some concern for the subset that wasn't hCard.
14:09:57 [Zakim]
+tinkster
14:09:59 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
14:09:59 [Zakim]
tinkster should now be muted
14:10:10 [jsalvachua]
sorry i have to leave now, sorry, see you.
14:10:20 [hhalpin]
And there was a big argument over round-tripping in SWIG a while back...
14:10:21 [Zakim]
-jsalvachua
14:10:24 [jsalvachua]
jsalvachua has left #swxg
14:10:34 [hhalpin]
timbl: I use this for modelling my addresses
14:10:47 [hhalpin]
timbl: these are proper vCards
14:11:19 [hhalpin]
timbl: but I can see working with well-defined subset, but would like round-tripping in this subset
14:11:25 [tinkster]
There are some parts of vCard which are pretty useless.
14:12:32 [hhalpin]
timbl: made contact ontology
14:12:40 [hhalpin]
norm: we should stick faithfully to vCard spec
14:12:50 [hhalpin]
Here is some of the structuring I think:
14:13:02 [hhalpin]
<vCard:EMAIL rdf:parseType="Resource"> <rdf:value> corky@qqqfoo.com </rdf:value> <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#internet"/>
14:13:14 [Norm]
More precisely: I said that if we claim to model vCard, we should model it. If not, we shouldn't claim to be modeling it.
14:13:16 [hhalpin]
You CAN do that with the newer hCard
14:13:21 [Zakim]
+uldis
14:13:33 [tinkster]
The CLASS property is useless.
14:13:33 [uldis]
Zakim: mute me
14:13:37 [hhalpin]
It's just it's a bit confusing because we then use v:EMAIL as a subject, not a predicate
14:13:46 [hhalpin]
but we can type predicates
14:13:55 [hhalpin]
this I think leads to problems with OWL-DL.
14:13:57 [tinkster]
MAILER is pretty useless too.
14:13:59 [hhalpin]
But I'm OK with that.
14:14:08 [tinkster]
(And has been removed in latest drafts.)
14:14:26 [timbl]
CLASS was for what groups it is in?
14:14:45 [tinkster]
CLASS has three allowed values: PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL and PUBLIC.
14:15:29 [timbl]
You don't need a bifg process to make a note obsolete, i think -- jsut change the Status Of This Document.
14:15:48 [hhalpin]
no process issue?
14:15:53 [timbl]
no process issue.
14:15:55 [hhalpin]
So, then we can just merge it with Renato's?
14:16:52 [hhalpin]
So, no process
14:17:20 [hhalpin]
I would like to NOT have more than one URI for vCard
14:17:22 [Norm]
The two are these:
14:17:30 [Norm]
http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf
14:17:37 [Norm]
http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns
14:17:45 [timbl]
timbl has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0127.html
14:17:58 [hhalpin]
Then I would like to put the SIMPLE stuff up front in Renato's, and put more difficult things involving data-structuring and rdf:List towards the end of the spec
14:18:24 [hhalpin]
There's also a silly difference in capitalization
14:18:26 [hhalpin]
I prefer lower-case
14:19:02 [tinkster]
Newer URI comes up #1 on Google for me, searching "vcard rdf".
14:19:14 [tinkster]
(without quotes)
14:19:46 [tinkster]
Norm's spec==namespace URI.
14:19:57 [hhalpin]
I prefer having spec URI == namespace URI and then use conneg
14:20:06 [tinkster]
Rennato's namespace = http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#
14:20:35 [hhalpin]
I mean, one option
14:21:13 [hhalpin]
I mean one option is that we re-use Renato's URI, then use as the namespace URI http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns.
14:21:21 [hhalpin]
And if one requests "text/html" for http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns
14:21:52 [tinkster]
+1 to timbl's suggestion of marking old one as obsolete and recommending new.
14:22:38 [hhalpin]
That's the issue with TR.
14:22:44 [tinkster]
hCard GRDDL profile <http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard> uses 2006 namespace.
14:22:47 [hhalpin]
Well, Norm, I think this is at least part of the community.
14:23:12 [Norm]
Fair enough
14:23:39 [hhalpin]
What is way forward here?
14:23:56 [ivan]
q+
14:24:41 [tinkster]
+1 to just an "obsolete" note, as long as it's clear.
14:25:00 [ivan]
q-
14:25:48 [timbl]
Proposed action: Harry to check with Renato he is OK with:
14:26:03 [ivan]
action on harry: http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one
14:26:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - on
14:26:29 [tinkster]
ACTION hhalpin to http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one
14:26:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - Http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].
14:26:40 [hhalpin]
that works for me and I think Renato will agree with it.
14:26:50 [timbl]
... http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would be kept as the "latest-version" URI, and Reanto's veion woul dbe linke dfrom the new one as a "previous version".
14:26:58 [hhalpin]
I guess the other question is we keep the "2006" namespace?
14:27:11 [ivan]
q+
14:27:20 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#
14:27:23 [tinkster]
My vote: keep both namespaces but only recommend 2006.
14:27:32 [timbl]
That is Renato's namespace URI.
14:28:00 [hhalpin]
Ivan: suggests namespace URIs that tend to use version causes version
14:28:07 [hhalpin]
Ivan: So let's use "2006"
14:28:08 [timbl]
I agree that it is unwise to use a version number in the URI
14:28:16 [Zakim]
-??P5
14:28:21 [timbl]
The year has no semantics
14:28:26 [tinkster]
It's based on vCard 3.0.
14:28:30 [hhalpin]
I am also a bit against years in URIs, but that's a minority opinion.
14:28:33 [timbl]
But you can use /ns/vcard if you want
14:28:38 [hhalpin]
Ivan: would prefer to vCard
14:28:57 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: I would agree with "2006"
14:28:58 [timbl]
or /ns/pim/adr
14:29:13 [hhalpin]
For the time being let's use "2006"
14:29:18 [tinkster]
Doesn't that just create yet another URI to include in SPARQL queries, etc?
14:29:40 [tinkster]
We already have one too many.
14:29:53 [timbl]
Ok, so keep the same 2006 ns
14:29:57 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns
14:30:07 [lubna]
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14:30:23 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: keep http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns
14:31:06 [hhalpin]
The vCard ontology needs examples. At least one that explains you can attach the properties to URIs for people, not just cards!
14:31:17 [hhalpin]
we need a list of examples
14:31:21 [hhalpin]
from experience.
14:31:30 [Zakim]
-Hakan
14:31:33 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: Transforming hCard into RDF
14:31:44 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: vCard represents both a person and organization
14:32:05 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: hCard is value of organization and fn are the same, the hCard is actually representing an organization and not a person
14:32:12 [timbl]
That is not RDF
14:32:20 [tinkster]
q+
14:32:22 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: The equivalent properties determine type of object
14:32:25 [ivan]
q-
14:32:32 [timbl]
So the hcrad > vcard mapping has to do some mapping
14:32:46 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: so address and whatnot can all apply to person
14:32:54 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: AND organization
14:32:59 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: Does person have vCard etc.
14:33:06 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: And then the vCard have an address etc.
14:33:17 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: These are two main points people struggle with
14:33:25 [hhalpin]
TimBL: The last one is the major one.
14:33:31 [hhalpin]
TimBL: Are we modelling a file or person
14:33:38 [hhalpin]
TimBL: The documentation leads this question open
14:34:05 [hhalpin]
I'm noting unclarity about this is WHY there's no examples :)
14:34:12 [hhalpin]
I could not consensus on this.
14:34:25 [timbl]
s/TimBL/PeterMika/
14:34:56 [tinkster]
q-
14:34:59 [tinkster]
q+
14:35:02 [ivan]
q+
14:35:08 [timbl]
I agree that one should moddl the person not the card.
14:35:16 [timbl]
Like you model a book, not a library card.
14:35:17 [tinkster]
zakim, unmute me
14:35:17 [Zakim]
tinkster should no longer be muted
14:35:25 [adam]
yes
14:35:48 [hhalpin]
toby: 4.0 includes a property "kind" that demarcates between people organization and group
14:35:51 [hhalpin]
+1 vCard 4.0
14:36:07 [hhalpin]
timbl: which would be a functional mapping to a RDF class
14:36:28 [hhalpin]
toby: individual or pre-defined group or organization
14:36:31 [AdamB]
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14:36:32 [hhalpin]
toby: also maybe one for "place"
14:36:43 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
14:36:43 [Zakim]
tinkster should now be muted
14:36:48 [timbl]
Those shoudl defintely map to classses.
14:37:09 [hhalpin]
how stable is vCard 4.0?
14:37:13 [hhalpin]
Should we track it?
14:37:14 [tinkster]
Not especially stable.
14:39:04 [tinkster]
yes, certainly - should be able to attach these to Person/Organisation URIs.
14:39:28 [hhalpin]
ivan: hhalpin said having the same person with several vCard is an edge-case
14:39:34 [hhalpin]
ivan: since I have two addresses
14:39:51 [hhalpin]
ivan: so in my phone I have two entries for my name
14:40:14 [tinkster]
I think vCard 4.0 drafts have ways of representing multiple sets of contact information in one card.
14:40:27 [hhalpin]
I am liking vCard 4.0 :)
14:40:40 [tinkster]
e.g. this phone, this fax and this address are for one set of uses; and this phone and this address are for another.
14:40:50 [tinkster]
I've not really studied that part of the syntax though.
14:41:36 [hhalpin]
timbl: so you'll miss the fact that these two vCards are not the same in RDF.
14:41:39 [uldis]
a person may have different vCards which they "give" to people same as one may have different versions of a business card
14:41:44 [hhalpin]
timbl: about the same person
14:41:53 [hhalpin]
timbl: does this mean ontology is broken/
14:41:56 [hhalpin]
q+
14:42:01 [tinkster]
q-
14:42:03 [ivan]
q-
14:42:31 [hhalpin]
ivan: vCard represents me or my address, I think it represents my address
14:42:42 [hhalpin]
timbl: we do not walk about what a vCard represents
14:43:19 [tinkster]
[ a vcard:Vcard] vcard:sameOwnerAs [a vcard:Vcard ] .
14:43:47 [tinkster]
(No, vCard doesn't have a sameOwnerAs property, but we could always define such a term.)
14:43:53 [pmika]
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14:44:03 [Norm]
s/modelling/modeling/
14:44:40 [hhalpin]
so we don't drop the vCard class
14:44:55 [hhalpin]
we keep it and keep domains pretty open-ended
14:45:01 [libby]
I think that's because the spec's a bit ambivalent norm
14:45:06 [hhalpin]
but in our examples we use People and Organizations
14:45:28 [hhalpin]
This would make it clear to users, since most users will just look at examples
14:45:43 [hhalpin]
timbl: we should be default not give it any class.
14:46:42 [hhalpin]
should we add this to the GRDDL and the spec, this weird hCard algorithm?
14:46:49 [hhalpin]
to determine people and organization?
14:47:01 [pmika]
if fn=org => organization is not possible to express in OWL
14:47:14 [hhalpin]
so it should be in GRDDL?
14:47:29 [hhalpin]
Not express it in OWL, but *mention* it in RDF spec and then implement it in GRDDL.
14:47:38 [pmika]
yes, it has to be in the hcard-to-rdf conversion
14:48:04 [hhalpin]
we should make a test case here
14:48:20 [hhalpin]
org class only has name and unit.
14:48:39 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: So these properties should be extended to organization class
14:48:49 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: ALL properties can be extended to organization class
14:49:20 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: for example, "adr". Strictly, in vCard people have addresses,not organizations, but people use addresses directly on organizations in hCard.
14:49:40 [tinkster]
contact:SocialEntity ~= foaf:Agent.
14:50:20 [tinkster]
orgname, orgunit
14:50:30 [tinkster]
orgunit can be repeated.
14:51:45 [tinkster]
[ a v:vCard ; v:fn "Tim Berners-Lee" ; v:org [ a v:Organization ; v:organization-name "MIT" ; v:organization-unit "CISAL" ] ]
14:51:54 [tinkster]
is how it currently works.
14:52:49 [hhalpin]
OK, am a bit confused.
14:53:58 [tinkster]
Organisations are messy in vCard RDF because they're messy in vCard.
14:54:27 [timbl]
org MIT unit CSAIL means memberOf [ a Unit; name "CSAIL"; partOf [ a Org; name "MIT"]]
14:54:45 [tinkster]
There are organisation properties which "hang off" people, plus the convention of fn==org whih means that the entire vCard represents an organisation.
14:54:46 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: allow both, have examples for both cases
14:55:00 [timbl]
org MIT means memberOf [ a Org; name "MIT"]
14:55:08 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: show an organization where the unit is not used, just give it name and some other properties.
14:55:30 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: A case where the vCard is using to describe an organization
14:55:42 [tinkster]
FOAF's model for people, orgs, membership is a lot more sensible.
14:55:45 [hhalpin]
TimBL: You need to spot these patterns
14:56:04 [hhalpin]
PeterMika: Yes, you need to do that in transform.
14:56:12 [hhalpin]
Perhaps we can add that to GRDDL.
14:56:19 [tinkster]
foaf:member
14:56:21 [hhalpin]
Norm?
14:56:24 [timbl]
Has FOAF got org is part of biggerOrg?
14:56:38 [hhalpin]
skos:widerThan :)
14:56:38 [tinkster]
no, but dublin core has "hasPart/isPartOf"
14:56:41 [libby]
foaf:Organization
14:56:56 [timbl]
I wonder whether a gorup is a SocialEntity
14:57:08 [libby]
don;t see any properties tho
14:57:14 [AlexPassant]
http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Organization
14:57:17 [libby]
"This is a more 'solid' class than foaf:Group, which allows for more ad-hoc collections of individuals. These terms, like the corresponding natural language concepts, have some overlap, but different emphasis. "
14:57:31 [hhalpin]
ok
14:57:32 [libby]
not sure if there's any formal subclassing
14:57:36 [libby]
probaby not
14:57:40 [timbl]
Maybe socialEntity should be explicitly allowed to incldeu a group.
14:57:41 [libby]
of group, that is
14:57:55 [AlexPassant]
may be used together with foaf:member ? (":csail foaf:member :mit")
14:58:07 [libby]
not very clear
14:58:20 [tinkster]
AlexPassant: not sure of :csail foaf:member :mit.
14:58:25 [timbl]
Good Q Alex
14:58:29 [uldis]
re. earlier mention of SIOC - for representing organisations FOAF would be more appropriate that SIOC
14:58:45 [pmika]
there is no equivalent of organization-unit in FOAF and I would not be in favor of bringing in a single FOAF class into the VCard spec
14:58:47 [tinkster]
:microsoft foaf:member :w3c .
14:58:55 [timbl]
FAOF more appropraite thatn SIOC?
14:59:32 [Zakim]
-Timbl
14:59:37 [hhalpin]
Re FOAF and VCard, I think we first fix vCard RDF spec, because that's relatively easy, and then see what the future of FOAF is in the next telecon.
14:59:51 [libby]
sounds good
15:00:36 [AlexPassant]
previous thread on foaf:Group / foaf:Organisation http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2007-January/008396.html
15:00:44 [Norm]
Good luck to all! See you on the next telcon
15:00:47 [Zakim]
-Norm
15:00:53 [ivan]
thanks to norm
15:01:24 [libby]
cheers AlexPassant
15:01:28 [Zakim]
-petef
15:01:56 [libby]
did you get a response? doesn't look like it AlexPassant
15:02:03 [libby]
perhaps bump the thread?
15:02:22 [AlexPassant]
libby: unfortunately, no answer - I sent a similar one a year later but no answer as well
15:02:22 [hhalpin]
republish it for next week?
15:03:19 [hhalpin]
Formal note, it's an IG note, not a SWXG note.
15:03:24 [hhalpin]
XGs can't do Notes even :)
15:03:42 [hhalpin]
send us examples
15:03:51 [hhalpin]
PeterMika will examples.
15:04:06 [hhalpin]
Shall we wrap up?
15:04:10 [hhalpin]
take care!
15:04:10 [Zakim]
-tinkster
15:04:12 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:04:14 [ivan]
ivan has left #swxg
15:04:14 [Zakim]
-PeterMika
15:04:17 [Zakim]
-libby
15:04:18 [Zakim]
-AlexPassant
15:04:19 [Zakim]
-hhalpin
15:04:19 [Zakim]
-AdamB
15:04:21 [Zakim]
-uldis
15:04:25 [hhalpin]
Meeting adjourned
15:04:30 [hhalpin]
RSSAgent, draft minutes
15:04:41 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:04:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin
15:04:45 [Zakim]
- +039011228aahh
15:04:46 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has ended
15:04:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were +4222aaaa, AdamB, tinkster, +7.942.aabb, Hakan, hhalpin, Carine, jsalvachua, mischat, petef, libby, karl, +49.173.515.aaff, cperey, AlexPassant, +039011228aahh,
15:04:50 [Zakim]
... +1.631.704.aajj, +1.631.877.aakk, Norm, PeterMika, Ivan, Timbl, uldis
15:05:20 [tinkster]
have fun!
15:06:42 [pmika]
pmika has left #swxg
15:20:39 [tpa]
tpa has joined #swxg
15:54:32 [tinkster]
i/General Organization/TOPIC: General Organization/
15:55:44 [tinkster]
i/4. Invited Guests/TOPIC: Invited Guests/
15:56:25 [tinkster]
i/5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki/TOPIC: Creating User Stories on the Wiki/
15:56:52 [tinkster]
i/6. Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF/TOPIC: Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF/
15:57:26 [tinkster]
i/Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/
15:57:32 [tinkster]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:57:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster
15:58:22 [tinkster]
i/Convene SWXG WG meeting/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/
15:58:38 [tinkster]
Chair: hhalpin
15:58:44 [tinkster]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster
16:02:09 [tinkster]
i/Excellent mischat./TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/
16:02:17 [tinkster]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster
16:04:32 [tinkster]
s|SWXG WG meeting/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting|scratch this|
16:04:38 [tinkster]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:04:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster
16:06:49 [tinkster]
OK, I can't get rid of that last heading. :-(
16:11:53 [libby]
hhalpin, fyi: http://twitter.com/_masaka/status/1936882959
16:12:04 [libby]
masaka uses 2006 ns
16:13:35 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
16:17:09 [tinkster]
this might be worth a look - http://ontologi.es/vcardx#
16:19:03 [hhalpin]
toby
16:19:13 [hhalpin]
I just cleaned up the minutes
16:19:46 [hhalpin]
i think it's acceptable now, thanks.
16:21:05 [tinkster]
I've added some topic headings to them, but the "Convene" heading applied in the wrong place first time around, so now there are two "Convene" headings :-(
16:21:35 [hhalpin]
before making any more changes, cvs ci out the latest version
16:21:42 [hhalpin]
i just checked one in that merged our changes
16:21:50 [hhalpin]
there may still be minor errors
16:22:07 [hhalpin]
s/cvs ci/cvs co
16:22:28 [tinkster]
I don't think I have CVS access to it (at least, not write access). I was just using RRSAgent's IRC interface.
16:22:36 [hhalpin]
ah.
16:22:40 [hhalpin]
that's why there was a cvs diff.
16:22:44 [hhalpin]
we should get you cvs access.
16:23:00 [hhalpin]
not sure if RRS agent does cvs differs, I think it should
16:23:10 [hhalpin]
but I can get rid of last heading, where is it? At end?
16:23:38 [tinkster]
It's now only showing in the TOC, but not the body of the message.
16:23:52 [hhalpin]
ok, i got rid of it in toc
16:23:55 [hhalpin]
let me cvs ci it back in.
16:24:53 [hhalpin]
remind me to get you cvs access.
16:25:03 [hhalpin]
it makes things like this a bit easier
16:25:19 [hhalpin]
now check it
16:25:21 [hhalpin]
should be fine
16:25:21 [tinkster]
ACTION hhalpin to get tinkster CVS access.
16:26:10 [hhalpin]
c'mon trackbot
16:26:11 [tinkster]
There's some sort of CVS-added gunk just before the "General Organization" heading.
16:26:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-24 - Get tinkster CVS access. [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].
16:27:53 [hhalpin]
ok, should be fixed, check again
16:30:14 [hhalpin]
looks good to me
16:30:53 [tinkster]
The first heading is still AWOL - in the contents, but not in the body. I think it was originally quite a bit before your "PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly..." thing, so has probably been trimmed out.
16:33:57 [hhalpin]
fixed
16:34:23 [hhalpin]
ok, gotta run.
16:34:30 [hhalpin]
thanks for all the help!
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libby has joined #swxg
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tpa has joined #swxg