IRC log of swxg on 2009-05-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:27 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swxg

12:58:27 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-irc

12:58:29 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

12:58:30 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #swxg

12:58:32 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7994

12:58:32 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

12:58:35 [trackbot]

Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference

12:58:36 [trackbot]

Date: 27 May 2009

12:59:07 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

12:59:07 [Zakim]

sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is

12:59:31 [rreck]

7994?

12:59:36 [jsalvachua]

jsalvachua has joined #swxg

12:59:42 [rreck]

libby: 7994 i think

12:59:48 [dom]

zakim, code?

12:59:48 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom

12:59:59 [libby]

thanks rreck

13:00:00 [jsalvachua]

Hello to all

13:00:06 [tinkster]

zakim, who's here?

13:00:06 [Zakim]

INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, tinkster

13:00:07 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jsalvachua, Zakim, RRSAgent, cperey, rreck, libby, adam, caribou, hhalpin, tpa, petef, melvster, mischat, tinkster, karl, trackbot, dom, AlexPassant

13:00:15 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

13:00:15 [Zakim]

sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is

13:00:17 [hhalpin]

7996 libby

13:00:29 [tinkster]

zakim, this is SWXG

13:00:29 [Zakim]

ok, tinkster; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM

13:00:30 [hhalpin]

no, 7994.

13:00:39 [Zakim]

+Hakan

13:00:40 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

13:00:41 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

13:00:43 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:00:55 [hhalpin]

Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin

13:00:55 [Zakim]

+hhalpin; got it

13:01:09 [Zakim]

+ +7.942.aacc

13:01:26 [Zakim]

+??P20

13:01:35 [Zakim]

+Carine

13:01:41 [Zakim]

+jsalvachua

13:01:45 [tinkster]

How does this IPcaller thing work then? Does Zakim have a SIP interface?

13:01:48 [jsalvachua]

zakim, mute me

13:01:50 [hajons]

hajons has joined #swxg

13:01:53 [Zakim]

jsalvachua should now be muted

13:01:59 [Zakim]

+??P24

13:02:09 [petef]

zakim, who is talking?

13:02:11 [Zakim]

+ +4222aadd

13:02:15 [hhalpin]

Zakim, who is making noise?

13:02:20 [Zakim]

petef, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (61%), ??P20 (4%), ??P24 (85%)

13:02:31 [Zakim]

hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (10%), ??P24 (24%)

13:02:35 [petef]

zakim p24 is me

13:02:58 [Zakim]

+ +0798919aaee

13:03:10 [mischat]

Zakim: +0798919aaee is mischat

13:03:19 [mischat]

zakim, +0798919aaee is mischat

13:03:19 [Zakim]

+mischat; got it

13:03:20 [petef]

zakim, +4222aadd is me

13:03:21 [adam]

yeah

13:03:22 [Zakim]

+petef; got it

13:03:29 [libby]

zakim, +7.942.aacc is me (I think)

13:03:29 [Zakim]

I don't understand '+7.942.aacc is me (I think)', libby

13:03:31 [mischat]

zakim, mute me

13:03:31 [Zakim]

mischat should now be muted

13:03:34 [libby]

zakim, +7.942.aacc is me

13:03:34 [Zakim]

+libby; got it

13:04:23 [petef]

zakim, mute me

13:04:23 [Zakim]

petef should now be muted

13:04:24 [mischat]

zakim, who is making noise

13:04:24 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is making noise', mischat

13:04:38 [tinkster]

That's not our anthem though.

13:04:52 [mischat]

zakim, who is making noise?

13:04:54 [Zakim]

+karl

13:05:02 [Zakim]

mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (29%), ??P24 (31%)

13:05:12 [claudio]

claudio has joined #swxg

13:05:13 [Zakim]

+ +49.173.515.aaff

13:05:15 [karl]

zakim, mute karl

13:05:15 [Zakim]

karl should now be muted

13:05:16 [hhalpin]

Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.rdf

13:05:16 [Zakim]

working on it, hhalpin

13:05:19 [Zakim]

done reading agenda, hhalpin

13:06:02 [hhalpin]

OK, we should probably begin now

13:06:03 [mischat]

the sound is terrible

13:06:03 [rreck]

i nominated chime to scribe

13:06:24 [hhalpin]

Zakim, whose making noise?

13:06:24 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, hhalpin.

13:06:28 [petef]

sorry that's me

13:06:29 [hhalpin]

Zakim, who is making noise?

13:06:32 [mischat]

zakim, who's making noise?

13:06:40 [Zakim]

hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (67%), ??P24 (9%)

13:06:47 [rreck]

me too

13:06:50 [Zakim]

mischat, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

13:06:59 [hhalpin]

is everyone having trouble just *hearing* other people.

13:07:03 [tinkster]

All I can hear is a strange humming noise.

13:07:04 [hhalpin]

Perhaps we should do a quick go around.

13:07:10 [rreck]

it probably worthwile to start 5 minutes earlier with this many participants

13:07:30 [hhalpin]

Zakim, whose on the phone?

13:07:30 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, hhalpin.

13:07:33 [mischat]

+1 humming noise

13:07:36 [hhalpin]

Zakim, who is one the phone?

13:07:36 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, hhalpin.

13:07:42 [rreck]

humming

13:07:45 [mischat]

hello !

13:07:46 [hhalpin]

Maybe it's me

13:07:46 [tinkster]

zakim, who's here?

13:07:46 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P5, AdamB, tinkster (muted), Hakan, hhalpin, libby, ??P20, Carine, jsalvachua (muted), ??P24 (muted), petef (muted), mischat (muted), karl (muted),

13:07:49 [Zakim]

... +49.173.515.aaff

13:07:50 [Zakim]

On IRC I see claudio, hajons, jsalvachua, Zakim, RRSAgent, cperey, rreck, libby, adam, caribou, hhalpin, tpa, petef, melvster, mischat, tinkster, karl, trackbot, dom, AlexPassant

13:07:51 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:07:51 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:07:55 [rreck]

whew

13:07:55 [hhalpin]

Is the humming noise gone?

13:07:58 [rreck]

yes

13:07:59 [mischat]

yes

13:08:00 [jsalvachua]

yes

13:08:00 [tinkster]

humming gone

13:08:05 [petef]

zakim, unmute me

13:08:05 [Zakim]

petef should no longer be muted

13:08:07 [hhalpin]

Ah, perhaps it is some sort of weird Skype bug on my end.

13:08:08 [Zakim]

-??P20

13:08:20 [rreck]

call in again perhaps

13:08:30 [hhalpin]

OK, I'll just mute in and out

13:08:33 [jsalvachua]

is environement noise captured by microphone

13:08:38 [mischat]

ah, you need headphoen if you are using skype you get feedback from laptop mic -> laptop speakers

13:08:43 [Zakim]

+??P20

13:08:46 [petef]

I don't seem to be able to unmute me

13:08:51 [Zakim]

+cperey

13:08:55 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute petef

13:08:55 [Zakim]

petef was not muted, hhalpin

13:09:09 [hhalpin]

OK, let's begin the meeting.

13:09:18 [mischat]

hello

13:09:19 [hhalpin]

but we need a scribe...

13:09:22 [petef]

I think perhaps I am P24?

13:09:22 [hhalpin]

do we have any volunteers?

13:09:23 [mischat]

i will scribe

13:09:27 [hhalpin]

Excellent mischat.

13:09:31 [cperey]

zakim mute me

13:09:38 [adam]

+1 mischat

13:09:43 [hhalpin]

Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z

13:09:44 [tinkster]

ScribeNick: mischat

13:09:44 [petef]

couldn't make out a word of that whoevere spoke

13:09:50 [tinkster]

Scribe: Mischa

13:09:52 [Zakim]

-cperey

13:10:00 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:10:00 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:10:02 [mischat]

someone say hello to him

13:10:06 [rreck]

i said hello

13:10:07 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:10:07 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:10:19 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:10:19 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:10:27 [Zakim]

+cperey

13:10:30 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:10:30 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:10:43 [petef]

zakim, unmute p24

13:10:43 [Zakim]

sorry, petef, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p24

13:10:44 [hhalpin]

PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record

13:10:49 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:10:49 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:10:55 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:10:55 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:10:56 [petef]

yes

13:10:59 [hajons]

yes

13:11:00 [jsalvachua]

yes

13:11:01 [adam]

yes

13:11:04 [tinkster]

yes

13:11:05 [cperey]

yes

13:11:10 [hhalpin]

RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record

13:11:17 [hhalpin]

(although notingg that DanBri should have cleaned them up)

13:11:25 [hhalpin]

PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 3 June. scribe volunteer?

13:11:30 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:11:30 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:11:34 [mischat]

i think that danbri did, as per his last email

13:11:36 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:11:36 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:11:40 [hhalpin]

Scribe?

13:11:40 [mischat]

not me

13:11:43 [mischat]

:)

13:11:43 [tinkster]

not me

13:11:49 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:11:49 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:11:59 [mischat]

we could rotate people !

13:12:02 [adam]

i can do june 10th

13:12:03 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:12:03 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:12:03 [mischat]

+1

13:12:05 [tinkster]

I'm happy to scribe occasionally, but not next week.

13:12:16 [hhalpin]

OK, let's have adam provisionally as scribe for next meeting.

13:12:26 [mischat]

i have no voice input today, and am happy scribe as a result

13:12:29 [cperey]

I will scribe in the future but not June 3

13:12:43 [hhalpin]

RESOLVED: move to a scribing list

13:12:48 [hhalpin]

Zakim, next item

13:12:48 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

13:12:51 [hhalpin]

Hmmm...

13:12:59 [hhalpin]

General Organization

13:13:02 [cperey]

i have no audio

13:13:12 [hhalpin]

unmute me

13:13:16 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:13:16 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:13:35 [hhalpin]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Liaisons

13:13:39 [mischat]

hhalpin: is going through last week's actions

13:13:51 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:13:51 [Zakim]

hhalpin was not muted, hhalpin

13:13:54 [mischat]

apassant is a SPARQL liasion

13:13:55 [hhalpin]

Zakim, mute me

13:13:55 [Zakim]

hhalpin should now be muted

13:13:59 [mischat]

in need of other ones ?

13:14:07 [hhalpin]

Do we have any volunteers?

13:14:12 [rreck]

are the groups that need liasons listed on the wiki?

13:14:16 [hhalpin]

Yes.

13:14:23 [tinkster]

I've put myself down for Microformats.

13:14:24 [cperey]

I only hear Harry, is anyone else speaking on this bridge?

13:14:24 [Zakim]

+ +2

13:14:26 [mischat]

are in need of liasons

13:14:36 [AlexPassant]

Zakim, +2 is me

13:14:36 [Zakim]

+AlexPassant; got it

13:14:36 [jsalvachua]

i may try to interface with dataportability.org

13:14:42 [hhalpin]

Ah, OK.

13:14:49 [hhalpin]

Could you add yourselves to the wiki?

13:15:16 [mischat]

jsalvachua: to be liaison with dataportability.org

13:15:25 [Zakim]

+ +039011228aahh

13:15:33 [mischat]

toby to be liason with the microformats community

13:15:43 [hhalpin]

\me Zakim, mute me

13:15:45 [petef]

zakim, unmute me

13:15:45 [Zakim]

petef was not muted, petef

13:15:45 [claudio]

+039011228aahh is claudio

13:15:56 [hhalpin]

C'mon no volunteers :(

13:15:59 [AlexPassant]

q+ to ask about SIOC liaisons

13:16:02 [petef]

I volunteered

13:16:07 [petef]

audio problems

13:16:08 [hhalpin]

Zakim, q+

13:16:08 [Zakim]

I see AlexPassant, hhalpin on the speaker queue

13:16:14 [hhalpin]

Zakim, ack

13:16:14 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'ack', hhalpin

13:16:17 [hhalpin]

Zakim, q-

13:16:17 [Zakim]

I see AlexPassant on the speaker queue

13:16:19 [petef]

for Social Network Portability Group List

13:16:21 [jsalvachua]

i may help with other groups, with the vcard ietf group

13:16:27 [mischat]

renanto is on the wiki as the liason with "Policy Language Interest Group"

13:16:29 [hhalpin]

Zakim, ack AlexPassant

13:16:29 [Zakim]

AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about SIOC liaisons

13:16:30 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

13:16:36 [petef]

yes

13:16:37 [tinkster]

can hear

13:16:39 [mischat]

yes

13:17:01 [hhalpin]

\me Zakim, mute me

13:17:02 [mischat]

apassant, to find a person to be SOIC liaison

13:17:17 [uldis]

uldis has joined #swxg

13:17:24 [AlexPassant]

Uldis Bojars or John Breslin can be SIOC liaisons

13:17:28 [AlexPassant]

her's uldis

13:17:30 [cperey]

no sound

13:17:32 [hhalpin]

OK - could you check on them.

13:17:50 [hhalpin]

ACTION: AlexPassant to see about SIOC liason

13:17:50 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-15 - See about SIOC liason [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-06-03].

13:17:51 [uldis]

sounds good

13:17:53 [mischat]

AlexPassant to check to see if we can find a SIOC liaison

13:17:56 [rreck]

yeah call went silent

13:18:03 [hhalpin]

Zakim, unmute me

13:18:03 [Zakim]

hhalpin should no longer be muted

13:18:07 [Zakim]

-AlexPassant

13:18:13 [mischat]

i can hear you

13:18:15 [cperey]

I hear only Harry

13:18:18 [rreck]

i can hear you too

13:18:26 [petef]

I have added myself to wiki as volunteer liason for data portability, diso and social network portability

13:18:31 [hhalpin]

ACTION: [DONE] danbri sketch a 5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics)

13:18:31 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]

13:18:33 [Zakim]

+ +2

13:18:34 [petef]

I *can't* speak

13:18:46 [petef]

Zakim has my number wrong :-(

13:18:48 [hhalpin]

ACTION: [DONE] karl to produce a template for TF deliverables.

13:18:48 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]

13:18:50 [mischat]

zakim, unmute petef

13:18:50 [Zakim]

petef was not muted, mischat

13:18:59 [AlexPassant]

Zakim, +2 is me

13:18:59 [Zakim]

+AlexPassant; got it

13:19:03 [karl]

zakim, unmute me

13:19:03 [Zakim]

karl should no longer be muted

13:19:03 [hhalpin]

Karl - do you wish to explain your template?

13:19:07 [mischat]

Karl put together a template for the user stories

13:19:09 [hhalpin]

\me Zakim, mute me

13:19:17 [mischat]

karl has put up 2 templates

13:19:27 [rreck]

are user stories aka use cases?

13:19:31 [petef]

zakim, P24 is really me.

13:19:31 [Zakim]

sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'

13:19:31 [mischat]

yup rreck

13:19:40 [mischat]

so user stories seemed too long

13:19:57 [rreck]

i am developing a use case atm

13:20:02 [mischat]

karl suggests we should be concise and to the point

13:20:31 [cperey]

can someone put the URI to the templates into IRC

13:20:36 [tinkster]

Karl's template - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0103.html

13:20:42 [mischat]

goal of the templates are to speed up the writing

13:20:48 [cperey]

thanks Toby!

13:21:06 [mischat]

templates will give us a common look and feel

13:21:15 [Zakim]

+ +1.631.704.aajj

13:21:27 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

13:21:27 [Zakim]

tinkster was already muted, tinkster

13:21:37 [hhalpin]

\me Zakim, unmute me

13:21:39 [mischat]

Karl is open to comments/modifications re: the templates

13:22:09 [mischat]

hhalpin happy with the user stories templates

13:22:09 [petef]

how come petef.a not petef?

13:22:30 [mischat]

hhalpin would like a template for the final report to be put up on the wiki

13:22:39 [mischat]

harry asks if anyone has any experience in this ?

13:22:41 [hhalpin]

Does anyone have a final report template as well?

13:23:12 [hhalpin]

Does anyone want to take that action - i.e. finding a template for final deliverables?

13:23:21 [tinkster]

microformats.org write all specs on mediawiki - perhaps useful?

13:23:21 [mischat]

karl stated that someone should take an action to port the final report template to the wiki

13:23:52 [mischat]

can we not look at other XGs?

13:24:13 [AlexPassant]

can a chair close this action -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/14

13:24:22 [ivan]

ivan has joined #swxg

13:24:24 [adam]

i can take a stab at it

13:24:40 [hhalpin]

ACTION: adam to find a good final report template and port it to the wiki

13:24:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-16 - Find a good final report template and port it to the wiki [on Adam Boyet - due 2009-06-03].

13:24:56 [mischat]

hhalpin: adam seemed to suggest that he would look into the template

13:25:12 [hhalpin]

3. Task Forces

13:25:19 [mischat]

hhalpin asks if anyone has any comments re: the organisation so we can move onto the task force issue

13:25:45 [mischat]

Task force issues: should we merge context / privacy ?

13:25:47 [cperey]

zakim, unmute me

13:25:47 [Zakim]

cperey was not muted, cperey

13:25:55 [karl]

zakim, mute me

13:25:55 [Zakim]

karl should now be muted

13:25:56 [hhalpin]

Context and Privacy Task Force (Karl Dubost)? For Portability and Architectures Task Force (@@)?

13:26:07 [tinkster]

i/3. Task Forces/TOPIC: Task forces/

13:26:19 [mischat]

so, harry is asking if people like proposed task force titles

13:26:36 [petef]

Portability and Architectures - jsalvachua and petef volunteered last telecon.

13:26:39 [mischat]

cperey: has no preference for times, but thinks we need critical mass

13:26:50 [mischat]

and we need a clear agenda

13:27:07 [petef]

signing up to task forces where?

13:27:26 [petef]

zakim, unmute petef.a

13:27:26 [Zakim]

petef.a should no longer be muted

13:27:29 [hhalpin]

Maybe we could remind people to sign up for task forces

13:27:30 [karl]

zakim, unmute me

13:27:30 [Zakim]

karl should no longer be muted

13:27:30 [mischat]

cperey participation has gone down since the start of XG, cperey thinks we should find out how many people are interested in each Task force

13:27:41 [jsalvachua]

petef : we both may start together to push the task force

13:27:48 [mischat]

who is speaking ?

13:27:51 [karl]

karl *MAY* be the task force leader ;)

13:27:54 [petef]

zakim, mute me

13:27:54 [Zakim]

petef should now be muted

13:28:02 [cperey]

zakim, mute me

13:28:02 [Zakim]

cperey should now be muted

13:28:17 [mischat]

should we find out how many are interested in each task force

13:28:23 [petef]

I find this constant un/muting incredibly frustrating

13:28:43 [mischat]

I thought we had leaders ?

13:28:55 [tinkster]

Also interested in portability/arch but not leading.

13:28:59 [cperey]

I agree

13:29:06 [hhalpin]

Wiki page for each of these task forces?

13:29:06 [petef]

where?

13:29:10 [hhalpin]

I don't think we do.

13:29:13 [cperey]

what next is unclear!

13:29:14 [tinkster]

I can set up template wiki pages for them.

13:29:22 [mischat]

hhalpin: thinks we need a wiki page for the task forces

13:29:26 [petef]

I will draft one for portability and architectures

13:29:43 [hhalpin]

ACTION: tinkster to draft wiki pages for task forces

13:29:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-17 - Draft wiki pages for task forces [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-03].

13:29:48 [mischat]

toby to set up wiki page re task forces, and people should add what they are thinking

13:29:58 [petef]

caribou, how?

13:30:34 [petef]

OK, sorry, muted on skype

13:30:35 [jsalvachua]

zakim, unmute me

13:30:35 [Zakim]

jsalvachua should no longer be muted

13:30:36 [mischat]

portability task force, so hhalpin is interested in how the W3C can promote how data can be made portable

13:30:44 [petef]

Can anyone else hear feedback?

13:30:52 [mischat]

zakim, mute petef.a

13:30:52 [Zakim]

petef.a should now be muted

13:30:54 [karl]

zakim, mute me

13:30:54 [Zakim]

karl should now be muted

13:31:00 [mischat]

sorry petef.a

13:31:05 [hhalpin]

joaquin?

13:31:12 [jsalvachua]

i am not sure if you hear me

13:31:23 [petef]

No, I don't hear you

13:31:25 [mischat]

no i can only hear typing

13:31:28 [rreck]

i would be happy to contribute but would like to have the discussion on the list

13:31:30 [tinkster]

I can just hear typing.

13:31:54 [tinkster]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF

13:32:01 [petef]

Great

13:32:07 [mischat]

jsalvachua: said that he will try and populate the wiki, regarding a roadmap for the portability task froce

13:32:43 [hajons]

+q

13:32:47 [tinkster]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF

13:32:55 [hhalpin]

4. Invited Guests

13:32:57 [mischat]

I will put some stuff on the wiki for privacy task force

13:33:06 [hajons]

-q

13:33:44 [hhalpin]

Anyone else?

13:34:00 [mischat]

invited speaker lists have been populated for the widget topic and the Vcard topic, does anyone else have any ideas on this ?

13:34:30 [mischat]

hajons, asks if people should just write to the wiki, if they want to join a task force ?

13:34:41 [petef]

Yes, just sign up to task force on wiki page

13:34:42 [mischat]

or is there some other protocol

13:34:43 [hajons]

how do we join the task forces

13:34:49 [hajons]

ok

13:34:54 [adam]

maybe once the task force pages are created, each person can add themselves as a member

13:34:57 [adam]

of the task force

13:35:04 [hhalpin]

+1 adam

13:35:10 [mischat]

hhalpin states that we should just add names to the list of task forces on the wiki

13:35:16 [rreck]

i will join the privacy task force

13:35:22 [mischat]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF

13:35:25 [mischat]

;)

13:35:29 [rreck]

i dont feel capable of leading it

13:35:30 [mischat]

go toby

13:35:46 [Zakim]

- +1.631.704.aajj

13:36:00 [mischat]

are we going to have invited guest for privacy and context ?

13:36:20 [cperey]

zakim, unmute me

13:36:20 [Zakim]

cperey should no longer be muted

13:36:25 [mischat]

harry wodners if there is any mobile interest

13:36:30 [mischat]

from the group

13:36:35 [hajons]

yes, I will propose a guest on context / mobile

13:36:46 [hhalpin]

tim gave his regrets and daniel applequist can't make this meeting in particular :(

13:37:08 [hhalpin]

Perhaps you can explain what the OSLO group is?

13:37:19 [hhalpin]

Does it have a web-page?

13:37:20 [Zakim]

+ +1.631.877.aakk

13:37:31 [hhalpin]

Open Sharing of LOcations

13:37:39 [mischat]

christine, is interested the mobile technologies, and christine also contacted someone (?) external, and they are not interested in developing protocols

13:38:10 [mischat]

OSLO group announced start earlier this year, and they are NOT interested with speaking to W3C

13:38:11 [tinkster]

Open Sharing of Location-based Objects (OSLO) - http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/02/27/oslo-accord-pushes-location-sharing-between-social-networks/

13:38:31 [hhalpin]

Christine, perhaps stay in touch with them?

13:38:36 [caribou]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests

13:39:03 [mischat]

there are others which could speak to the w3c

13:39:13 [mischat]

but we need some specific questions

13:39:13 [hhalpin]

Maybe brainstorm on the wiki what specific questions would be relevant to these mobile operators?

13:39:25 [mischat]

so that christine could approach people

13:39:32 [mischat]

who is speaking ?

13:39:40 [rreck]

lubna

13:39:45 [tinkster]

zakim, who's making noise

13:39:45 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who's making noise', tinkster

13:39:46 [rreck]

lubna dajani

13:39:57 [rreck]

she isnt on IRC yet

13:40:05 [rreck]

im trying to help her in another window

13:40:06 [mischat]

lubna said that she has contacts in the mobile space

13:40:07 [hhalpin]

Or what is part of their problems?

13:40:15 [hhalpin]

What could they need?

13:40:45 [mischat]

nokia people did context and mobile stuff, and I could ask Mor Naaman to talk about the Zonetag project

13:40:52 [mischat]

but i am out of touch with the mobile stuff

13:41:18 [mischat]

harry asked if we could have a wiki page / content regarding the mobile space

13:41:37 [hhalpin]

ACTION: cperey to add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting

13:41:37 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-18 - Add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting [on Christine Perey - due 2009-06-03].

13:41:38 [mischat]

christine would like an agenda to take to the mobile experts before contacting them

13:41:53 [mischat]

now moving to the next topic

13:41:55 [hhalpin]

5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki

13:41:57 [mischat]

UserStories

13:42:36 [cperey]

zakim, mute me

13:42:36 [Zakim]

cperey should now be muted

13:42:45 [mischat]

sorry my phone cut out for a bit

13:42:46 [mischat]

:)

13:43:15 [karl]

zakim, unmute me

13:43:15 [Zakim]

karl should no longer be muted

13:43:18 [hhalpin]

any more use-cases?

13:43:28 [mischat]

there is some work i emailed round from a chap from cambridge

13:43:48 [mischat]

which had some good examples of how privacy in the social web tends to look like

13:44:28 [mischat]

karl thinks that we should add some more user stories, so that we can get a feel for what the XG should be looking at

13:44:48 [mischat]

i can barely understand you karl i am sorry

13:44:51 [mischat]

:)

13:44:56 [rreck]

yes i will add a story

13:45:01 [hhalpin]

I feel we are still missing some use-cases regarding businesses and developers

13:45:11 [rreck]

i wanted to get privacy classes but no one answered my email

13:45:14 [mischat]

ah excellent point

13:45:16 [karl]

karl: we should take the current user stories and check them against the actual social networks such as frienfeed, facebook, etc.

13:45:24 [karl]

then we can see if our cases make sense

13:45:37 [karl]

and then we can identify if there are missing ones.

13:45:37 [mischat]

i posted about this

13:45:42 [rreck]

great idea

13:45:45 [tinkster]

I've got a developer story - I'll create an action for myself.

13:45:55 [mischat]

harry says that we should have a matrix

13:45:56 [rreck]

social network matrix

13:46:06 [tinkster]

ACTION tinkster to document developer stories on wiki.

13:46:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-19 - Document developer stories on wiki. [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-03].

13:46:10 [mischat]

showing how social networks uphold privacy

13:46:17 [mischat]

SO, i have pointed to a matrix

13:46:19 [caribou]

almost all the user stories that we have are related to privacy/data protection

13:46:20 [karl]

ACTION: karl to create the matix to be filled

13:46:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-20 - Create the matix to be filled [on Karl Dubost - due 2009-06-03].

13:46:21 [mischat]

we have developed at garlik

13:46:22 [rreck]

can someone help me find classes of privacy

13:46:32 [mischat]

but it is for government institutions

13:46:42 [mischat]

about what they do with your data

13:46:50 [hhalpin]

mischa - could we expland the matrix to deal with commercial social networks?

13:46:53 [mischat]

i could put to a similar oen for social networking sites

13:47:16 [hhalpin]

Maybe we could look through alexa to get out the top social networking sites.

13:47:19 [hhalpin]

I can do that...

13:47:28 [mischat]

karl says that he will put up a matrix based on the current user stories

13:47:36 [hhalpin]

ACTION: To retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa

13:47:36 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - To

13:47:48 [hhalpin]

ACTION: hhalpin to retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa

13:47:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-21 - Retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].

13:47:55 [mischat]

so that people can look at each individual social networking sites

13:48:06 [cperey]

Karl, what criteria do you want for this list?

13:48:12 [cperey]

the "top" social networks?

13:48:21 [karl]

cperey: Alexa traffic

13:48:30 [cperey]

irrelevant

13:48:33 [cperey]

for mobile

13:48:37 [karl]

s/cperey:/cperey,/

13:48:45 [mischat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites

13:48:48 [karl]

cperey, what would be your criteria? :)

13:48:59 [hhalpin]

how could we get the top X social networking sites for mobile?

13:48:59 [cperey]

Number of unique users per month

13:49:06 [hhalpin]

is that list available anywhere?

13:49:10 [cperey]

more relevant for all types of social networks

13:49:18 [mischat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites

13:49:27 [cperey]

I have a list (not published)

13:49:34 [rreck]

wouldnt you just select out of the top 500 alexa sites?

13:49:45 [hhalpin]

I thin that list on wikipedia uses the company's own data, right?

13:49:51 [mischat]

there has been some work from cambridge

13:49:54 [mischat]

were they looked into

13:49:58 [karl]

I will do Mixi (social network in Japan) because I have an account and they don't open account to people outside Japan

13:49:59 [mischat]

social networking sites

13:50:01 [mischat]

T&Cs

13:50:03 [mischat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8060407.stm

13:50:13 [mischat]

i would like to invite the phd student which did the work

13:50:14 [cperey]

this is a metrics question

13:50:16 [rreck]

humming is back

13:50:25 [mischat]

looking for the persons link

13:50:32 [hhalpin]

I'm happy to go through alexa if someone else will merge it with wikipedia and Christine's list

13:50:33 [mischat]

zakim, who is making noise ?

13:50:37 [cperey]

how do you measure a social network

13:50:44 [Zakim]

mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: karl (5%)

13:50:47 [hhalpin]

this is returning to the metric question

13:50:52 [karl]

zakim, mute me

13:50:52 [Zakim]

karl should now be muted

13:51:12 [cperey]

OK

13:51:14 [karl]

+1 for merging

13:51:18 [mischat]

+1 merging

13:51:20 [rreck]

+1 merging

13:51:22 [cperey]

30-50 social networks

13:51:32 [rreck]

yes that sounds reasonable

13:51:32 [hhalpin]

So we merge list from alexa\wikipedia with Christine's list?

13:51:32 [cperey]

by country? worldwide?

13:51:37 [rreck]

worldwide

13:51:44 [hhalpin]

I would assume world-wide at first, and then later we can break it down by country

13:51:45 [mischat]

hhalpin: asked if we could merge christine's list with the alexa rankign and the wikipedia list so as to pick 30 social networking sites

13:51:55 [hhalpin]

unless your data is already broken down by country Christine

13:52:05 [cperey]

I can work with Harry on this

13:52:12 [cperey]

zakim unmute me

13:52:25 [hhalpin]

zakim, unmute cperey

13:52:25 [Zakim]

cperey should no longer be muted

13:52:31 [mischat]

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/

13:52:48 [melvster]

I would suggest you also need IM based networks such as Skype, GTalk, XMPP, if they are not included already, as they have significant usage and maturity

13:52:50 [mischat]

cperey's data is broken down by country

13:53:14 [mischat]

cperey: on/deck and business models.

13:53:14 [hhalpin]

30 or 50?

13:53:23 [hhalpin]

Start with 30 and then build if needed?

13:53:26 [mischat]

cperey would be happy with 30

13:53:29 [mischat]

+1

13:53:35 [adam]

+1

13:53:46 [mischat]

cperey: will make a list of the last 30

13:53:47 [rreck]

top based on number of users?

13:53:57 [mischat]

i would like us to check their Terms and Conditions

13:54:10 [mischat]

and see if they actually abide by it

13:54:37 [MacTed]

MacTed has joined #swxg

13:54:38 [hhalpin]

ACTION: cperey to make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa

13:54:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-22 - Make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa [on Christine Perey - due 2009-06-03].

13:54:54 [karl]

I'll have to find someone for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel

13:55:04 [hajons]

Christine, do you list mobile access as a feature too?

13:55:09 [Zakim]

-??P20

13:55:11 [hhalpin]

we do it as more of long-term action

13:55:17 [mischat]

cperey: data has information regarding social networking sites, and their features

13:55:21 [mischat]

not terms and conditions

13:55:24 [hhalpin]

does your list have the feature?

13:55:37 [hhalpin]

feature-criteria like instant-messaging, and all of that?

13:55:57 [mischat]

all of the social networking sites on christine's list are mobile centric

13:56:01 [hhalpin]

cperey: "PC-centric" vs. "mobile-centric" and then a continuum inbetween.

13:56:22 [karl]

what is a mobile access? specific software for mobile devices?

13:56:22 [rreck]

my cell does the same things as my PC

13:56:25 [hhalpin]

sounds good to me

13:56:31 [mischat]

cperey: will get her mobile-centric list and we should look at it

13:56:55 [hhalpin]

yes rreck, but some sites don't well with mobile phones if you don't have a gphone/iphone/other dataphone

13:57:06 [mischat]

and add an pc-centric social networkings site to the cperey's list

13:57:11 [Norm]

Norm has joined #swxg

13:57:14 [hhalpin]

can we check to see if any of these sites take advantage of user-context, like geolocation from mobile phone?

13:57:56 [mischat]

(not good at scribing)

13:57:57 [mischat]

!

13:58:00 [hhalpin]

Sounds great!

13:58:05 [Zakim]

+Norm

13:58:15 [mischat]

matrix of social networking site

13:58:18 [mischat]

and their features

13:58:21 [cperey]

where does this live?

13:58:36 [hhalpin]

we should a manufacture a wiki page for the list

13:58:37 [mischat]

we need a wiki page for this list

13:58:40 [cperey]

yes, please

13:58:52 [cperey]

yes, I will fill in

13:59:11 [cperey]

I need to sign off and go to another meeting, bye all

13:59:20 [petef]

bye cperey

13:59:25 [mischat]

vcard and portability issues will have its own discussion after this call

13:59:36 [hhalpin]

any more comments before we move to vcard?

13:59:42 [hhalpin]

such as things we are missing?

13:59:44 [mischat]

does anyone have any issues, there are lots of quiet people about?

13:59:47 [Zakim]

-tinkster

13:59:54 [mischat]

have we looked over anything

13:59:56 [tinkster]

Dammit. My phone's gone dead.

14:00:01 [tinkster]

Still on IRC though.

14:00:06 [mischat]

are we missing anything obvious ?

14:00:10 [Zakim]

-cperey

14:00:13 [rreck]

im not sure

14:00:22 [mischat]

this should be an ongoing process

14:00:30 [mischat]

if you think we are missing something

14:00:36 [hhalpin]

6. Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF

14:00:38 [mischat]

let the mailing list know

14:00:47 [rreck]

im trying to find classes of privacy and i cant be the first person to want them

14:01:12 [mischat]

rreck: look at this guys work http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/

14:01:15 [hhalpin]

One advantage of the vCard in RDF format (RDF Schema here) is it's use of RDF containers to allow complex vCard expressions. Should this be kept, and if so, how? Which ones, rdf:bag, rdf:Alt, rdf:Seq? How about its use of sub-structure?

14:01:47 [mischat]

I have to leave this call, it is 3

14:01:49 [Zakim]

-karl

14:01:51 [mischat]

:(

14:01:55 [hhalpin]

http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf

14:01:57 [rreck]

mischat: ty

14:01:59 [hhalpin]

That's the older vCard in RDF format

14:02:06 [Zakim]

- +1.631.877.aakk

14:02:19 [tinkster]

Aren't rdf:Bag/rdf:Alt/rdf:Seq generally seen as poor cousins of rdf:List these days?

14:02:28 [Zakim]

-petef.a

14:02:44 [petef]

I have to leave too, bye

14:02:45 [hhalpin]

1) No use of containers in vCard at all

14:02:51 [hhalpin]

2) Using *only* rdf:List

14:02:52 [rreck]

why isnt rdf:bag enough

14:02:53 [tinkster]

If the order of items is important, use rdf:List, otherwise don't use a container at all.

14:03:01 [hhalpin]

3) Letting it all be a free for all.

14:03:03 [mischat]

i have to leave this chat now :(

14:03:06 [mischat]

i am sorry

14:03:07 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:03:13 [hhalpin]

Someone else can scribe?

14:03:23 [hhalpin]

Zakim, P10 is PeterMika

14:03:23 [Zakim]

sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'

14:03:28 [hhalpin]

Zakim, ??P10 is PeterMika

14:03:28 [Zakim]

+PeterMika; got it

14:03:35 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:03:35 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:03:36 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:03:45 [mischat]

right i am sorry i am off now, you are less a scribe now

14:03:46 [mischat]

bye all

14:03:50 [Zakim]

-mischat

14:03:58 [hhalpin]

is there use for RDF containers?

14:04:11 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: vCard is 99 percent hCard

14:05:44 [Norm]

Really? Surely there are gobs of vcards out there never rendered in HTML at all

14:06:08 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: vCard in RDF is fairly minimal

14:06:18 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: Lots of hCard - between 1-2 billion URLs

14:06:33 [Zakim]

-Carine

14:06:35 [caribou]

caribou has left #swxg

14:06:45 [hhalpin]

Can you share the stats on the usage of the attribute?

14:07:04 [tinkster]

hhalpin: But 98% of those 1-2 billion URLs are presumably on a handful of domain names. Just a few script tweaks could change everything.

14:07:17 [Zakim]

- +49.173.515.aaff

14:07:34 [timbl]

timbl has joined #swxg

14:07:40 [hhalpin]

should we merge or not do data-typring?

14:08:00 [timbl]

Zakim, call timbl-office

14:08:00 [Zakim]

ok, timbl; the call is being made

14:08:02 [Zakim]

+Timbl

14:08:26 [hhalpin]

so for complex structure is the older version better?

14:09:30 [hhalpin]

do we need or/want to substructure?

14:09:31 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:09:31 [Zakim]

sorry, tinkster, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:09:45 [hhalpin]

I thin Renato had some concern for the subset that wasn't hCard.

14:09:57 [Zakim]

+tinkster

14:09:59 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:09:59 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:10:10 [jsalvachua]

sorry i have to leave now, sorry, see you.

14:10:20 [hhalpin]

And there was a big argument over round-tripping in SWIG a while back...

14:10:21 [Zakim]

-jsalvachua

14:10:24 [jsalvachua]

jsalvachua has left #swxg

14:10:34 [hhalpin]

timbl: I use this for modelling my addresses

14:10:47 [hhalpin]

timbl: these are proper vCards

14:11:19 [hhalpin]

timbl: but I can see working with well-defined subset, but would like round-tripping in this subset

14:11:25 [tinkster]

There are some parts of vCard which are pretty useless.

14:12:32 [hhalpin]

timbl: made contact ontology

14:12:40 [hhalpin]

norm: we should stick faithfully to vCard spec

14:12:50 [hhalpin]

Here is some of the structuring I think:

14:13:02 [hhalpin]

<vCard:EMAIL rdf:parseType="Resource"> <rdf:value> corky@qqqfoo.com </rdf:value> <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#internet"/>

14:13:14 [Norm]

More precisely: I said that if we claim to model vCard, we should model it. If not, we shouldn't claim to be modeling it.

14:13:16 [hhalpin]

You CAN do that with the newer hCard

14:13:21 [Zakim]

+uldis

14:13:33 [tinkster]

The CLASS property is useless.

14:13:33 [uldis]

Zakim: mute me

14:13:37 [hhalpin]

It's just it's a bit confusing because we then use v:EMAIL as a subject, not a predicate

14:13:46 [hhalpin]

but we can type predicates

14:13:55 [hhalpin]

this I think leads to problems with OWL-DL.

14:13:57 [tinkster]

MAILER is pretty useless too.

14:13:59 [hhalpin]

But I'm OK with that.

14:14:08 [tinkster]

(And has been removed in latest drafts.)

14:14:26 [timbl]

CLASS was for what groups it is in?

14:14:45 [tinkster]

CLASS has three allowed values: PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL and PUBLIC.

14:15:29 [timbl]

You don't need a bifg process to make a note obsolete, i think -- jsut change the Status Of This Document.

14:15:48 [hhalpin]

no process issue?

14:15:53 [timbl]

no process issue.

14:15:55 [hhalpin]

So, then we can just merge it with Renato's?

14:16:52 [hhalpin]

So, no process

14:17:20 [hhalpin]

I would like to NOT have more than one URI for vCard

14:17:22 [Norm]

The two are these:

14:17:30 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf

14:17:37 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns

14:17:45 [timbl]

timbl has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0127.html

14:17:58 [hhalpin]

Then I would like to put the SIMPLE stuff up front in Renato's, and put more difficult things involving data-structuring and rdf:List towards the end of the spec

14:18:24 [hhalpin]

There's also a silly difference in capitalization

14:18:26 [hhalpin]

I prefer lower-case

14:19:02 [tinkster]

Newer URI comes up #1 on Google for me, searching "vcard rdf".

14:19:14 [tinkster]

(without quotes)

14:19:46 [tinkster]

Norm's spec==namespace URI.

14:19:57 [hhalpin]

I prefer having spec URI == namespace URI and then use conneg

14:20:06 [tinkster]

Rennato's namespace = http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#

14:20:35 [hhalpin]

I mean, one option

14:21:13 [hhalpin]

I mean one option is that we re-use Renato's URI, then use as the namespace URI http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns.

14:21:21 [hhalpin]

And if one requests "text/html" for http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns

14:21:52 [tinkster]

+1 to timbl's suggestion of marking old one as obsolete and recommending new.

14:22:38 [hhalpin]

That's the issue with TR.

14:22:44 [tinkster]

hCard GRDDL profile <http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard> uses 2006 namespace.

14:22:47 [hhalpin]

Well, Norm, I think this is at least part of the community.

14:23:12 [Norm]

Fair enough

14:23:39 [hhalpin]

What is way forward here?

14:23:56 [ivan]

q+

14:24:41 [tinkster]

+1 to just an "obsolete" note, as long as it's clear.

14:25:00 [ivan]

q-

14:25:48 [timbl]

Proposed action: Harry to check with Renato he is OK with:

14:26:03 [ivan]

action on harry: http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one

14:26:03 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - on

14:26:29 [tinkster]

ACTION hhalpin to http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one

14:26:29 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-23 - Http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].

14:26:40 [hhalpin]

that works for me and I think Renato will agree with it.

14:26:50 [timbl]

... http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would be kept as the "latest-version" URI, and Reanto's veion woul dbe linke dfrom the new one as a "previous version".

14:26:58 [hhalpin]

I guess the other question is we keep the "2006" namespace?

14:27:11 [ivan]

q+

14:27:20 [hhalpin]

http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#

14:27:23 [tinkster]

My vote: keep both namespaces but only recommend 2006.

14:27:32 [timbl]

That is Renato's namespace URI.

14:28:00 [hhalpin]

Ivan: suggests namespace URIs that tend to use version causes version

14:28:07 [hhalpin]

Ivan: So let's use "2006"

14:28:08 [timbl]

I agree that it is unwise to use a version number in the URI

14:28:16 [Zakim]

-??P5

14:28:21 [timbl]

The year has no semantics

14:28:26 [tinkster]

It's based on vCard 3.0.

14:28:30 [hhalpin]

I am also a bit against years in URIs, but that's a minority opinion.

14:28:33 [timbl]

But you can use /ns/vcard if you want

14:28:38 [hhalpin]

Ivan: would prefer to vCard

14:28:57 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: I would agree with "2006"

14:28:58 [timbl]

or /ns/pim/adr

14:29:13 [hhalpin]

For the time being let's use "2006"

14:29:18 [tinkster]

Doesn't that just create yet another URI to include in SPARQL queries, etc?

14:29:40 [tinkster]

We already have one too many.

14:29:53 [timbl]

Ok, so keep the same 2006 ns

14:29:57 [ivan]

http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns

14:30:07 [lubna]

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14:30:23 [hhalpin]

RESOLVED: keep http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns

14:31:06 [hhalpin]

The vCard ontology needs examples. At least one that explains you can attach the properties to URIs for people, not just cards!

14:31:17 [hhalpin]

we need a list of examples

14:31:21 [hhalpin]

from experience.

14:31:30 [Zakim]

-Hakan

14:31:33 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: Transforming hCard into RDF

14:31:44 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: vCard represents both a person and organization

14:32:05 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: hCard is value of organization and fn are the same, the hCard is actually representing an organization and not a person

14:32:12 [timbl]

That is not RDF

14:32:20 [tinkster]

q+

14:32:22 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: The equivalent properties determine type of object

14:32:25 [ivan]

q-

14:32:32 [timbl]

So the hcrad > vcard mapping has to do some mapping

14:32:46 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: so address and whatnot can all apply to person

14:32:54 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: AND organization

14:32:59 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: Does person have vCard etc.

14:33:06 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: And then the vCard have an address etc.

14:33:17 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: These are two main points people struggle with

14:33:25 [hhalpin]

TimBL: The last one is the major one.

14:33:31 [hhalpin]

TimBL: Are we modelling a file or person

14:33:38 [hhalpin]

TimBL: The documentation leads this question open

14:34:05 [hhalpin]

I'm noting unclarity about this is WHY there's no examples :)

14:34:12 [hhalpin]

I could not consensus on this.

14:34:25 [timbl]

s/TimBL/PeterMika/

14:34:56 [tinkster]

q-

14:34:59 [tinkster]

q+

14:35:02 [ivan]

q+

14:35:08 [timbl]

I agree that one should moddl the person not the card.

14:35:16 [timbl]

Like you model a book, not a library card.

14:35:17 [tinkster]

zakim, unmute me

14:35:17 [Zakim]

tinkster should no longer be muted

14:35:25 [adam]

yes

14:35:48 [hhalpin]

toby: 4.0 includes a property "kind" that demarcates between people organization and group

14:35:51 [hhalpin]

+1 vCard 4.0

14:36:07 [hhalpin]

timbl: which would be a functional mapping to a RDF class

14:36:28 [hhalpin]

toby: individual or pre-defined group or organization

14:36:31 [AdamB]

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14:36:32 [hhalpin]

toby: also maybe one for "place"

14:36:43 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:36:43 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:36:48 [timbl]

Those shoudl defintely map to classses.

14:37:09 [hhalpin]

how stable is vCard 4.0?

14:37:13 [hhalpin]

Should we track it?

14:37:14 [tinkster]

Not especially stable.

14:39:04 [tinkster]

yes, certainly - should be able to attach these to Person/Organisation URIs.

14:39:28 [hhalpin]

ivan: hhalpin said having the same person with several vCard is an edge-case

14:39:34 [hhalpin]

ivan: since I have two addresses

14:39:51 [hhalpin]

ivan: so in my phone I have two entries for my name

14:40:14 [tinkster]

I think vCard 4.0 drafts have ways of representing multiple sets of contact information in one card.

14:40:27 [hhalpin]

I am liking vCard 4.0 :)

14:40:40 [tinkster]

e.g. this phone, this fax and this address are for one set of uses; and this phone and this address are for another.

14:40:50 [tinkster]

I've not really studied that part of the syntax though.

14:41:36 [hhalpin]

timbl: so you'll miss the fact that these two vCards are not the same in RDF.

14:41:39 [uldis]

a person may have different vCards which they "give" to people same as one may have different versions of a business card

14:41:44 [hhalpin]

timbl: about the same person

14:41:53 [hhalpin]

timbl: does this mean ontology is broken/

14:41:56 [hhalpin]

q+

14:42:01 [tinkster]

q-

14:42:03 [ivan]

q-

14:42:31 [hhalpin]

ivan: vCard represents me or my address, I think it represents my address

14:42:42 [hhalpin]

timbl: we do not walk about what a vCard represents

14:43:19 [tinkster]

[ a vcard:Vcard] vcard:sameOwnerAs [a vcard:Vcard ] .

14:43:47 [tinkster]

(No, vCard doesn't have a sameOwnerAs property, but we could always define such a term.)

14:43:53 [pmika]

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14:44:03 [Norm]

s/modelling/modeling/

14:44:40 [hhalpin]

so we don't drop the vCard class

14:44:55 [hhalpin]

we keep it and keep domains pretty open-ended

14:45:01 [libby]

I think that's because the spec's a bit ambivalent norm

14:45:06 [hhalpin]

but in our examples we use People and Organizations

14:45:28 [hhalpin]

This would make it clear to users, since most users will just look at examples

14:45:43 [hhalpin]

timbl: we should be default not give it any class.

14:46:42 [hhalpin]

should we add this to the GRDDL and the spec, this weird hCard algorithm?

14:46:49 [hhalpin]

to determine people and organization?

14:47:01 [pmika]

if fn=org => organization is not possible to express in OWL

14:47:14 [hhalpin]

so it should be in GRDDL?

14:47:29 [hhalpin]

Not express it in OWL, but *mention* it in RDF spec and then implement it in GRDDL.

14:47:38 [pmika]

yes, it has to be in the hcard-to-rdf conversion

14:48:04 [hhalpin]

we should make a test case here

14:48:20 [hhalpin]

org class only has name and unit.

14:48:39 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: So these properties should be extended to organization class

14:48:49 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: ALL properties can be extended to organization class

14:49:20 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: for example, "adr". Strictly, in vCard people have addresses,not organizations, but people use addresses directly on organizations in hCard.

14:49:40 [tinkster]

contact:SocialEntity ~= foaf:Agent.

14:50:20 [tinkster]

orgname, orgunit

14:50:30 [tinkster]

orgunit can be repeated.

14:51:45 [tinkster]

[ a v:vCard ; v:fn "Tim Berners-Lee" ; v:org [ a v:Organization ; v:organization-name "MIT" ; v:organization-unit "CISAL" ] ]

14:51:54 [tinkster]

is how it currently works.

14:52:49 [hhalpin]

OK, am a bit confused.

14:53:58 [tinkster]

Organisations are messy in vCard RDF because they're messy in vCard.

14:54:27 [timbl]

org MIT unit CSAIL means memberOf [ a Unit; name "CSAIL"; partOf [ a Org; name "MIT"]]

14:54:45 [tinkster]

There are organisation properties which "hang off" people, plus the convention of fn==org whih means that the entire vCard represents an organisation.

14:54:46 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: allow both, have examples for both cases

14:55:00 [timbl]

org MIT means memberOf [ a Org; name "MIT"]

14:55:08 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: show an organization where the unit is not used, just give it name and some other properties.

14:55:30 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: A case where the vCard is using to describe an organization

14:55:42 [tinkster]

FOAF's model for people, orgs, membership is a lot more sensible.

14:55:45 [hhalpin]

TimBL: You need to spot these patterns

14:56:04 [hhalpin]

PeterMika: Yes, you need to do that in transform.

14:56:12 [hhalpin]

Perhaps we can add that to GRDDL.

14:56:19 [tinkster]

foaf:member

14:56:21 [hhalpin]

Norm?

14:56:24 [timbl]

Has FOAF got org is part of biggerOrg?

14:56:38 [hhalpin]

skos:widerThan :)

14:56:38 [tinkster]

no, but dublin core has "hasPart/isPartOf"

14:56:41 [libby]

foaf:Organization

14:56:56 [timbl]

I wonder whether a gorup is a SocialEntity

14:57:08 [libby]

don;t see any properties tho

14:57:14 [AlexPassant]

http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Organization

14:57:17 [libby]

"This is a more 'solid' class than foaf:Group, which allows for more ad-hoc collections of individuals. These terms, like the corresponding natural language concepts, have some overlap, but different emphasis. "

14:57:31 [hhalpin]

ok

14:57:32 [libby]

not sure if there's any formal subclassing

14:57:36 [libby]

probaby not

14:57:40 [timbl]

Maybe socialEntity should be explicitly allowed to incldeu a group.

14:57:41 [libby]

of group, that is

14:57:55 [AlexPassant]

may be used together with foaf:member ? (":csail foaf:member :mit")

14:58:07 [libby]

not very clear

14:58:20 [tinkster]

AlexPassant: not sure of :csail foaf:member :mit.

14:58:25 [timbl]

Good Q Alex

14:58:29 [uldis]

re. earlier mention of SIOC - for representing organisations FOAF would be more appropriate that SIOC

14:58:45 [pmika]

there is no equivalent of organization-unit in FOAF and I would not be in favor of bringing in a single FOAF class into the VCard spec

14:58:47 [tinkster]

:microsoft foaf:member :w3c .

14:58:55 [timbl]

FAOF more appropraite thatn SIOC?

14:59:32 [Zakim]

-Timbl

14:59:37 [hhalpin]

Re FOAF and VCard, I think we first fix vCard RDF spec, because that's relatively easy, and then see what the future of FOAF is in the next telecon.

14:59:51 [libby]

sounds good

15:00:36 [AlexPassant]

previous thread on foaf:Group / foaf:Organisation http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2007-January/008396.html

15:00:44 [Norm]

Good luck to all! See you on the next telcon

15:00:47 [Zakim]

-Norm

15:00:53 [ivan]

thanks to norm

15:01:24 [libby]

cheers AlexPassant

15:01:28 [Zakim]

-petef

15:01:56 [libby]

did you get a response? doesn't look like it AlexPassant

15:02:03 [libby]

perhaps bump the thread?

15:02:22 [AlexPassant]

libby: unfortunately, no answer - I sent a similar one a year later but no answer as well

15:02:22 [hhalpin]

republish it for next week?

15:03:19 [hhalpin]

Formal note, it's an IG note, not a SWXG note.

15:03:24 [hhalpin]

XGs can't do Notes even :)

15:03:42 [hhalpin]

send us examples

15:03:51 [hhalpin]

PeterMika will examples.

15:04:06 [hhalpin]

Shall we wrap up?

15:04:10 [hhalpin]

take care!

15:04:10 [Zakim]

-tinkster

15:04:12 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:04:14 [ivan]

ivan has left #swxg

15:04:14 [Zakim]

-PeterMika

15:04:17 [Zakim]

-libby

15:04:18 [Zakim]

-AlexPassant

15:04:19 [Zakim]

-hhalpin

15:04:19 [Zakim]

-AdamB

15:04:21 [Zakim]

-uldis

15:04:25 [hhalpin]

Meeting adjourned

15:04:30 [hhalpin]

RSSAgent, draft minutes

15:04:41 [hhalpin]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:04:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin

15:04:45 [Zakim]

- +039011228aahh

15:04:46 [Zakim]

INC_SWXG()9:00AM has ended

15:04:48 [Zakim]

Attendees were +4222aaaa, AdamB, tinkster, +7.942.aabb, Hakan, hhalpin, Carine, jsalvachua, mischat, petef, libby, karl, +49.173.515.aaff, cperey, AlexPassant, +039011228aahh,

15:04:50 [Zakim]

... +1.631.704.aajj, +1.631.877.aakk, Norm, PeterMika, Ivan, Timbl, uldis

15:05:20 [tinkster]

have fun!

15:06:42 [pmika]

pmika has left #swxg

15:20:39 [tpa]

tpa has joined #swxg

15:54:32 [tinkster]

i/General Organization/TOPIC: General Organization/

15:55:44 [tinkster]

i/4. Invited Guests/TOPIC: Invited Guests/

15:56:25 [tinkster]

i/5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki/TOPIC: Creating User Stories on the Wiki/

15:56:52 [tinkster]

i/6. Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF/TOPIC: Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF/

15:57:26 [tinkster]

i/Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/

15:57:32 [tinkster]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:57:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster

15:58:22 [tinkster]

i/Convene SWXG WG meeting/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/

15:58:38 [tinkster]

Chair: hhalpin

15:58:44 [tinkster]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:58:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster

16:02:09 [tinkster]

i/Excellent mischat./TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z/

16:02:17 [tinkster]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:02:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster

16:04:32 [tinkster]

s|SWXG WG meeting/TOPIC: Convene SWXG WG meeting|scratch this|

16:04:38 [tinkster]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:04:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html tinkster

16:06:49 [tinkster]

OK, I can't get rid of that last heading. :-(

16:11:53 [libby]

hhalpin, fyi: http://twitter.com/_masaka/status/1936882959

16:12:04 [libby]

masaka uses 2006 ns

16:13:35 [oshani]

oshani has joined #swxg

16:17:09 [tinkster]

this might be worth a look - http://ontologi.es/vcardx#

16:19:03 [hhalpin]

toby

16:19:13 [hhalpin]

I just cleaned up the minutes

16:19:46 [hhalpin]

i think it's acceptable now, thanks.

16:21:05 [tinkster]

I've added some topic headings to them, but the "Convene" heading applied in the wrong place first time around, so now there are two "Convene" headings :-(

16:21:35 [hhalpin]

before making any more changes, cvs ci out the latest version

16:21:42 [hhalpin]

i just checked one in that merged our changes

16:21:50 [hhalpin]

there may still be minor errors

16:22:07 [hhalpin]

s/cvs ci/cvs co

16:22:28 [tinkster]

I don't think I have CVS access to it (at least, not write access). I was just using RRSAgent's IRC interface.

16:22:36 [hhalpin]

ah.

16:22:40 [hhalpin]

that's why there was a cvs diff.

16:22:44 [hhalpin]

we should get you cvs access.

16:23:00 [hhalpin]

not sure if RRS agent does cvs differs, I think it should

16:23:10 [hhalpin]

but I can get rid of last heading, where is it? At end?

16:23:38 [tinkster]

It's now only showing in the TOC, but not the body of the message.

16:23:52 [hhalpin]

ok, i got rid of it in toc

16:23:55 [hhalpin]

let me cvs ci it back in.

16:24:53 [hhalpin]

remind me to get you cvs access.

16:25:03 [hhalpin]

it makes things like this a bit easier

16:25:19 [hhalpin]

now check it

16:25:21 [hhalpin]

should be fine

16:25:21 [tinkster]

ACTION hhalpin to get tinkster CVS access.

16:26:10 [hhalpin]

c'mon trackbot

16:26:11 [tinkster]

There's some sort of CVS-added gunk just before the "General Organization" heading.

16:26:16 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-24 - Get tinkster CVS access. [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].

16:27:53 [hhalpin]

ok, should be fixed, check again

16:30:14 [hhalpin]

looks good to me

16:30:53 [tinkster]

The first heading is still AWOL - in the contents, but not in the body. I think it was originally quite a bit before your "PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly..." thing, so has probably been trimmed out.

16:33:57 [hhalpin]

fixed

16:34:23 [hhalpin]

ok, gotta run.

16:34:30 [hhalpin]

thanks for all the help!

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