IRC log of sparql on 2009-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:35 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:58:36 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/26-sparql-irc

13:58:37 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

13:58:37 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:58:37 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

13:58:39 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

13:58:39 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

13:58:40 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

13:58:40 [trackbot]

Date: 26 May 2009

13:58:47 [AndyS]

zakin, who is on the phone?

13:58:54 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

13:58:54 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

13:58:56 [Zakim]

On IRC I see SteveH, RRSAgent, SimonS, kasei, AndyS, AndyS_, ivan, kjetil, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, john-l, trackbot, AlexPassant, ericP

13:59:11 [AndyS]

zakim, this is SPARQL

13:59:11 [Zakim]

ok, AndyS; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM

13:59:14 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

13:59:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +353914aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb (muted), ??P5, Lee_Feigenbaum

13:59:17 [ericP]

Zakim, please dial ericP-office

13:59:17 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

13:59:18 [Zakim]

+EricP

13:59:19 [LukeWM]

LukeWM has joined #sparql

13:59:23 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

13:59:23 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

13:59:25 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P5 is me

13:59:27 [Zakim]

+Ivan

13:59:29 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

13:59:31 [Zakim]

+??P12

13:59:31 [kasei]

Zakim, aabb is me

13:59:35 [Zakim]

+??P11

13:59:37 [Zakim]

+kasei; got it

13:59:40 [SteveH]

Zakim: ??P12 is [Garlik]

13:59:45 [AlexPassant]

Zakim, ??P11 is me

13:59:45 [Zakim]

+AlexPassant; got it

14:00:02 [SteveH]

Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM

14:00:02 [Zakim]

sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named '[Garlik]'

14:00:06 [Zakim]

+??P15

14:00:13 [kjetil]

Zakim, ??P15 is me

14:00:13 [Zakim]

+kjetil; got it

14:00:15 [Zakim]

+ +049261287aacc

14:00:17 [bijan]

bijan has joined #sparql

14:00:23 [kjetil]

Zakim, mute me

14:00:23 [Zakim]

kjetil should now be muted

14:00:25 [SimonS]

Zakim, aacc is me

14:00:25 [Zakim]

+SimonS; got it

14:00:26 [Zakim]

+john-l

14:00:34 [SteveH]

Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]

14:00:34 [Zakim]

+[Garlik]; got it

14:00:38 [SteveH]

Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM

14:00:38 [Zakim]

+SteveH, LukeWM; got it

14:00:40 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:00:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +353914aaaa, kasei (muted), AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, EricP, Ivan, [Garlik], AlexPassant, kjetil (muted), SimonS, john-l

14:00:42 [Zakim]

[Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM

14:00:57 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:01:01 [bijan]

zakim, ??p21 is me

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+bijan; got it

14:01:15 [pgearon]

pgearon has joined #sparql

14:01:45 [Zakim]

+pgearon

14:02:00 [LeeF]

Chair: AxelPolleres

14:02:20 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-05-26

14:02:36 [AxelPolleres2]

AxelPolleres2 has joined #sparql

14:02:45 [LeeF]

LukeWM, can you scribe today?

14:02:53 [LeeF]

You are the highest person on the scribe list who is here right now :)

14:02:56 [Zakim]

+cory

14:03:15 [LukeWM]

sure

14:03:20 [LeeF]

thanks

14:03:28 [LeeF]

Scribenick: LukeWM

14:03:28 [Prateek]

Prateek has joined #sparql

14:03:35 [Zakim]

+iv_an_ru

14:03:37 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:03:37 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +353914aaaa, kasei (muted), AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, EricP, Ivan, [Garlik], AlexPassant, kjetil (muted), SimonS, john-l, bijan, pgearon, cory, iv_an_ru

14:03:41 [Zakim]

[Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM

14:03:58 [ericP2]

ericP2 has joined #sparql

14:04:00 [LukeWM]

Lee: does anyone know who cory is?

14:04:03 [LeeF]

zakim, cory is temporarily Prateek

14:04:03 [Zakim]

+Prateek; got it

14:04:40 [LeeF]

zakim, aaaa is AxelPolleres2

14:04:40 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres2; got it

14:05:23 [LukeWM]

Axel: main focus is talking about update

14:05:40 [LukeWM]

.Axel: first of all lets approve the minutes from last time & F2F

14:05:54 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-19

14:06:07 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-19

14:06:20 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes of F2F1, Day1, Day2

14:06:21 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06

14:06:22 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: lets also do the ones from the F2F meeting

14:06:24 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07

14:06:45 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve F2F minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06 and http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07

14:06:57 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: OK, next meeting will be tuesday

14:07:20 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: next on the scribe list is Chimezie

14:07:56 [LukeWM]

Axel: now Liason's. Bijan, anything from Owl?

14:08:12 [LukeWM]

bijan: rdftext is ongoing

14:08:30 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:08:45 [LukeWM]

... owl is going to vote tomorrow, so it would be good to know about anything now.

14:08:56 [bijan]

Because of the semantic equivalence between typed rdf:text literals and plain RDF literals in datatype interpretations, the rdf:text datatype is "implicitly defined" by the set of all plain RDF literals, and each plain RDF literal can be understood as an idiosyncratic lexical form for the corresponding typed rdf:text literal. In order not to introduce syntactic redundancy in RDF graphs, typed rdf:text literals must not occur explicitly in published RDF content

14:09:18 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec

14:09:19 [LukeWM]

eric: the form is "quote" bob "quote" en

14:09:35 [LukeWM]

eric: the challenge is mixing 2 specs

14:10:04 [AndyS]

One thing still missing : need to say that BGP matching exposes rdf forms, not ^^rdf:text.

14:10:18 [LukeWM]

bijan: if you have an rdf api to e.g. jena, required behaviour is to expose it as a plain literal

14:10:29 [LukeWM]

... can expose it as a typed literal but not required

14:10:42 [LukeWM]

ericP: we're on the same page - the form in RDF is a plain literal

14:10:53 [LukeWM]

AndyS: you must get back the rdf forms

14:11:02 [ericP]

q+ to say doubt that BGPs need to be matched

14:11:13 [ericP]

s/matched/mentioned/

14:11:47 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Asks andy a question

14:11:57 [LukeWM]

AndyS: graph is not the right word.

14:12:21 [LukeWM]

bijan: Andy, is there something you'd like to include

14:12:30 [LukeWM]

AndyS: yes

14:12:45 [LukeWM]

bijan: you prefer that to Sparql saying something about it

14:13:06 [LukeWM]

AndyS: then you don't end up with a dependency.

14:13:23 [LukeWM]

AndyS: Sparql working group can't do every extension.

14:13:39 [LukeWM]

AndyS: otherwise everything will come back to SPARQL WG

14:13:45 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:13:55 [LukeWM]

bijan: so, we should include Filter functions etc?

14:14:16 [AxelPolleres2]

ack ericP

14:14:16 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to say doubt that BGPs need to be matched

14:14:22 [LukeWM]

AndyS: section in Sparql spec tells how to bolt in other entailment regimes

14:15:16 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#bgpExtend talks about well-formed graphs, not well-formed sparql graphs.

14:15:20 [LukeWM]

eric: if there is no special entailment, then we don't need a specific reference to SPARQL.

14:15:37 [AxelPolleres2]

s/sparql graphs/scoping graphs/

14:15:43 [LukeWM]

AndyS: the case I'm thinking of is SPARQL owl

14:16:16 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: I agree we should cover this later, and get back on topic

14:16:28 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: anything else from other working groups?

14:16:38 [AndyS_]

AndyS_ has joined #sparql

14:16:47 [LeeF]

me notes that we need to update liaisons list to include socialweb xg

14:17:14 [LukeWM]

iv_an_ru: we're still trying to get the right chair

14:17:21 [AndyS_]

AndyS_ has joined #sparql

14:17:25 [ivan]

s/iv_an_ru/ivan/

14:17:28 [LukeWM]

s/ iv_an_ru/ivan/

14:17:30 [AlexPassant]

btw, nothing from the SocialWeb XG - might be interesting contact points later when it comes to authentication in SPARUL

14:17:45 [ericP]

q+ to provide some background

14:18:04 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: should we hold the next face to face in conjunction with the t-pac in california

14:18:17 [LukeWM]

ericP: there are reasons to have it at the hotel instead of e.g. HP

14:19:02 [LukeWM]

ericP: Advantage of HP is that we can do a split face to face, advantage of t-pac is running into other folks.

14:19:07 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:19:12 [LukeWM]

ericP: can do 1 day and 1 day at t-pac

14:19:59 [ivan]

I can probably come

14:20:01 [ericP]

+1

14:20:02 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Who can come?

14:20:04 [AndyS]

Too early to be sure.

14:20:06 [pgearon]

+1

14:20:08 [AxelPolleres2]

+1

14:20:09 [SimonS]

+1

14:20:10 [Prateek]

Too early to be sure

14:20:12 [AlexPassant]

probably not

14:20:14 [SteveH]

probably not

14:20:15 [kasei]

I can probably attend, but not totally certain at this point.

14:20:16 [bijan]

Probably not physically

14:20:17 [john-l]

Probably not.

14:20:23 [LeeF]

+1

14:20:35 [iv_an_ru]

probably via phone only

14:20:37 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: who can do a 2 site meeting.

14:20:40 [SteveH]

depends what the sites were

14:20:40 [bijan]

Depends on the site :)

14:21:06 [AlexPassant]

2 sides might be ok - depending on the site as well

14:21:18 [LukeWM]

AndyS: I thought the point of t-pac was to meet other groups

14:21:27 [LukeWM]

... so video conference is more irrelevant

14:21:44 [LukeWM]

LeeF: I hope it's half own work and half working out coordination parts

14:21:59 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Maybe at that point more people will have joined the group

14:22:19 [Zakim]

-Prateek

14:22:22 [LukeWM]

ericP: what was the conclusion

14:22:32 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: to do with time difference

14:22:39 [LukeWM]

ericP: so we do meet at t-pac

14:22:56 [LukeWM]

AndyS: 6 people can go, maybe

14:23:23 [AndyS]

Are there more on the WBS?

14:23:26 [LukeWM]

ericP: Attend 2 days at t-pac?

14:23:39 [LukeWM]

LeeF: Lets figure this out in the next few weeks.

14:23:58 [ericP]

RESOLVED: plan A is to meet two days at TPAC, though plan A is at risk

14:24:01 [Zakim]

+cory

14:24:04 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: can those who were unsure try to find out.

14:24:36 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Lets talk about update, we already have use cases.

14:24:38 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:UpdateUseCases

14:25:14 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: lets go through quickly. First data integration

14:25:15 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/DataIntegration

14:25:49 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: each time a new data is created we send a ping to the triple store

14:26:07 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: fetching from ping the semantic web and using LOAD as well.

14:27:16 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: needs to load and create graphs...

14:27:30 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: are they load, additive or replacing

14:27:31 [AndyS]

q+

14:27:43 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: the first is replace, second additive, correct

14:27:46 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: yes

14:28:07 [LukeWM]

AndyS: Need to load graphs into store with the name they have in the wild, right?

14:28:10 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: yes

14:28:20 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:28:24 [LukeWM]

AndyS: doing this seems common, so it needs to be natural to do

14:28:26 [SteveH]

we do load X into X equivalent a lot too

14:28:27 [AndyS]

ack me

14:28:44 [AlexPassant]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/PersonalTagging

14:29:00 [AndyS]

Looks to me like a replace as well.

14:29:03 [ericP]

q-

14:29:07 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: using insert into graphs and uploading them from the web

14:29:35 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:29:51 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Syntax is mix of scripting?

14:30:01 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: there is a mix of php etc.

14:30:21 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: the php was just so you can llook at the sparql query

14:30:32 [LukeWM]

s/AxelPolleres2/AlexPassant /

14:30:53 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: there is no query part involved either?

14:31:02 [LukeWM]

AlexPassant: no

14:31:03 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:31:19 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/DocUpdateTracking

14:31:29 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: next use case is doc update tracking

14:31:40 [LukeWM]

pgearon: this has come up a few times with mulgara

14:32:12 [LukeWM]

pgearon: need to be able to do queries and construct new blanknodes for every binding

14:32:34 [LukeWM]

pgearon: creates a template structure that starts out empty and contains a load of blank nodes

14:32:51 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:33:03 [LukeWM]

pgearon: people who use mulgara do alot of updates that create blank nodes on the fly

14:33:10 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: it is querying, right?

14:33:32 [LukeWM]

pgearon: it's in TQL

14:34:10 [LukeWM]

pgearon: and sparql update syntax

14:34:36 [LukeWM]

pgearon: uses OPTIONAL/filter !bound to do the equivalent of MINUS

14:34:51 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: this is the same as a blanknode in a construct?

14:34:52 [SteveH]

that's not what CONSTRUCT does

14:34:56 [SteveH]

oh, sorry

14:34:58 [LukeWM]

pgearon: yes

14:35:01 [SteveH]

yes, it is

14:35:14 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:35:21 [LukeWM]

pgearon: looking at insert, construct and this just about covers doing that.

14:35:24 [AndyS]

Unfortunately, need both cases of bnodes.

14:35:39 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: any more questions? Lets go to editing FOAF

14:36:03 [SteveH]

LukeWM: talking about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/EditingFoafData

14:36:04 [SimonS]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/EditingFoafData

14:36:12 [SteveH]

LukeWM: 2 usecases

14:36:26 [SteveH]

LukeWM: 1) delete some triples based around a WHERE, to change name

14:36:35 [SteveH]

LukeWM: bare minimun

14:36:36 [AxelPolleres2]

(thanks steve)

14:36:49 [SteveH]

LukeWM: 2nd usecase, more complicated, changing some details from address

14:36:58 [SteveH]

LukeWM: has to delete sub-tree hanging of address

14:37:11 [SteveH]

LukeWM: done it with some fancy syntax, like property path syntax

14:37:19 [SteveH]

LukeWM: .+ matches any predicate

14:37:29 [SteveH]

LukeWM: usecase for prop paths in update

14:38:49 [AxelPolleres2]

"replace" values by delete all/insert

14:38:56 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:39:33 [SteveH]

LukeWM: intended to be recursive

14:39:45 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: you would delete all addresses, and replace with just the one, right?

14:39:54 [AxelPolleres2]

delete subtrees!

14:39:55 [SteveH]

LukeWM: real code just goes a couple of hops, but would like to delete entire tree

14:40:06 [SteveH]

LukeWM: seems like it could get complicated

14:40:15 [iv_an_ru]

hm, what's constructed is deleted, recursive delete requires recursive query and that's all.

14:40:21 [SteveH]

LukeWM: could have other trees that depend on this one

14:41:24 [LukeWM]

SimonS: you could shoot yourself in the foot with this

14:41:28 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:41:32 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: the semantics is clear though, right

14:41:40 [LukeWM]

SimonS: yes, semantics are clear

14:41:44 [AxelPolleres2]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/ResourceTopicPortals

14:41:50 [kjetil]

Zakim, unmute me

14:41:50 [Zakim]

kjetil should no longer be muted

14:42:00 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: on to the last use case, Resoure Topic Portals

14:42:19 [LukeWM]

kjetil: we used sparql update with ARQ

14:43:03 [LukeWM]

kjetil: we have a java coder using queries and he wasn't a semantic web enthusiast, hence he's interesting

14:43:36 [LukeWM]

kjetil: second query uses where clause where you bind the variables

14:43:50 [SteveH]

q+ to ask about "Insert new concept"

14:43:58 [LukeWM]

kjetil: there is also a map editing, where all URIs in system had to be changed

14:44:21 [LukeWM]

kjetil: final query moves data between graphs.

14:44:51 [LukeWM]

kjetil: could simplify the queries probably. But we have 2 cases of where clause to bind variables.

14:45:09 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: what do you suggest for the last one, they should be easier?

14:45:17 [LeeF]

From where I stand as someone surprisingly disinterested in the 'update' part of our work, I hear requirements for both "constant" data loading/replacing and for "query-based" data mutation

14:45:30 [LukeWM]

kjetil: to do it in a simpler way would be interesting, but should be weighed against other stuff.

14:45:34 [SteveH]

it's not a trivial move

14:45:40 [SteveH]

q?

14:45:49 [LukeWM]

kjetil: I don't know if it would be that common to want to move stuff between graphs.

14:46:12 [LukeWM]

SteveH: based on my limited example of sparql update, only the last one needs a where

14:46:21 [LukeWM]

SteveH: perhaps someone else can correct me on that?

14:46:56 [AndyS]

q+ to comment on the DELETE P WHERE P form.

14:47:01 [LukeWM]

kjetil: In the merge 2 concepts section, the predicate and object are taken out...

14:47:25 [pgearon]

LeeF, that exactly covers our user requirements (constant updates and query-based updates)

14:47:27 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Basically DELETE is the same as a WHERE, in one case

14:47:32 [LukeWM]

SteveH: I might be wrong

14:47:45 [LukeWM]

AndyS: I think SteveH is right in intent.

14:47:57 [LukeWM]

AndyS: If you have unbound variables in the pattern, it's like a CONSTRUCT

14:48:22 [LukeWM]

...you get into repetition, it's common and ugly.

14:48:25 [AxelPolleres2]

andyS: repition is ugly.

14:48:45 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:48:48 [AndyS]

ack me

14:48:48 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to comment on the DELETE P WHERE P form.

14:48:52 [SteveH]

ack me

14:48:52 [Zakim]

SteveH, you wanted to ask about "Insert new concept"

14:48:55 [SimonS]

q+

14:48:58 [LukeWM]

SteveH: I didn't realise DELETE worked like CONSTRUCT

14:49:05 [AndyS]

q+

14:49:36 [LukeWM]

SimonS: I thought WHERE would be the matching part but delete would be like the construct pattern. Is that true?

14:49:39 [ericP]

that's how i read it

14:50:28 [SteveH]

-1 to convience forms like that

14:50:29 [LukeWM]

AndyS: that was the intention. If you have to extract the sub pattern, it's pretty ugly.

14:50:36 [SteveH]

DELETE { * } maybe

14:50:45 [LeeF]

convenience forms the 2nd time around :-)

14:50:49 [SimonS]

ack me

14:51:03 [SteveH]

q?

14:51:03 [AndyS]

DELETE * WHERE P

14:51:04 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: there are use cases for both complex, with needed WHERE clause, as well as more lightweight ones.

14:51:07 [LeeF]

the first time around should require lots of pain - if people use it despite the pain, then you can be confident it's important :-D

14:51:21 [LeeF]

c.f. optional/!bound

14:51:26 [AndyS]

c.f. CONSTRUCT * (which has issues with nested GRAPH but solvable

14:51:28 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: AndyS suggested a phased approach in the mail.

14:51:31 [iv_an_ru]

A side note: what I like in current SPARUL is that it constructs all items to delete and or insert before starting changes (say, by making temporary dictionaries).

14:51:32 [iv_an_ru]

At the same time, in many cases it can easily be optimized to insert or delete in a loop, as soon as next binding is found

14:51:39 [LukeWM]

s/the mail/a mail/

14:51:42 [kjetil]

Zakim, mute me

14:51:42 [Zakim]

kjetil should now be muted

14:51:44 [SteveH]

AndyS, yes, it's a bit messy with GRAPH present

14:51:51 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: The second thing is PUT, DELETE and POST - simpler

14:52:07 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: It seemed that only the first use cases were covered, but not the others.

14:52:30 [LukeWM]

AndyS: It was a very large problem-space so we need to split it.

14:52:42 [SteveH]

I'm not sure that starting with a single graph will actually be simpler

14:52:47 [LukeWM]

AndyS: we don't want to not do the whole thing, we just need to get some focus

14:53:04 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: So the 1st phase wouldn't cover all the use cases

14:53:20 [iv_an_ru]

SteveH, +1

14:53:28 [LukeWM]

AndyS: not Alex's, certainly, because we'd have to load data into a graph store with a particular name

14:53:38 [LukeWM]

AndyS: how big a chunk of work to we bite off?

14:53:55 [SteveH]

I would got for PUT, POST first

14:54:08 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: I want to get a sense of whether we do a 2 phased approach or not

14:54:17 [AlexPassant]

would like LOAD (or some feature with a similar behavior) to be in the first phase

14:54:20 [LukeWM]

ericP: all my use cases are for UPDATE on the graph store

14:54:30 [LukeWM]

AndyS: whole graph operations? Is that what you mean?

14:54:32 [LeeF]

I'm less interested in PUT, POST then in a mutation language, personally, but somewhat low priority personally for me as well

14:54:52 [LukeWM]

ericP: I can't answer until next week. I need to get my head around how awkward things are.

14:54:52 [SteveH]

With CONSTRUCT and PUT you can do a lot

14:55:01 [SteveH]

abeit inefficiently

14:55:12 [AndyS]

PUT? That's replace?

14:55:15 [SteveH]

yes

14:55:21 [AndyS]

ack

14:55:23 [LukeWM]

LeeF: I'm more interested in doing everything, like using patterns etc, rather than RESTful stuff

14:55:41 [iv_an_ru]

I'd say, LOAD is especially useful when one may selectively DELETE the garbage from the LOADed mess.

14:55:45 [LukeWM]

LeeF: that was me talking as LeeF

14:55:46 [LeeF]

SteveH, I hadn't considered that - is there an example of that anywhere?

14:56:04 [kjetil]

q+

14:56:14 [AndyS]

q-

14:56:36 [LukeWM]

SteveH: if we have PUT, which in HTTP is a replace operation and CONSTRUCT, we can do a lot of modifications.

14:56:42 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: PUT was replacing

14:56:52 [LukeWM]

SteveH: according to HTTP standard, yes

14:56:54 [pgearon]

+q

14:57:02 [AndyS]

so the division is changes of a graph and changes of a graph store (whole graph)

14:57:05 [AndyS]

??

14:57:08 [LukeWM]

SteveH: POST is additive

14:57:15 [AxelPolleres2]

q?

14:57:26 [LukeWM]

SteveH: not trying to replace INSERT DELETE

14:57:27 [kjetil]

ack me

14:57:48 [LeeF]

Wonders if someone understands this enough to summarize the options in email?

14:57:48 [LukeWM]

kjetil: main problem is we'd have to have an HTTP server and we don't have that

14:58:18 [LukeWM]

kjetil: WHERE clause is mandatory

14:58:35 [SteveH]

+1 to deffering WHERE

14:58:40 [LukeWM]

kjetil: DELETE WHERE is mandatory but not INSERT WHERE

14:59:04 [LukeWM]

pgearon: I liked the semantics of HTTP put but

14:59:14 [AndyS]

WHERE is in INSERT and DELETE : not in INSERT DATA and DELETE DATA.

14:59:34 [LukeWM]

pgearon: it could be abused to just do a delete, which would be subverting the semantics

14:59:46 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: This is a question of priority

15:00:17 [LeeF]

+1 to AxelPolleres2 summarizing

15:00:19 [LeeF]

:)

15:00:29 [SteveH]

q?

15:00:30 [kjetil]

Zakim, mute me

15:00:30 [Zakim]

kjetil should now be muted

15:00:31 [ericP]

q+ to make sure i understand where SPARUL sits

15:00:38 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: Let me try to summarize this, and continue with further discussion later

15:00:45 [AxelPolleres2]

ACTION: Axel to summarize priorization issues on update

15:00:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-33 - Summarize priorization issues on update [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-02].

15:00:50 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: anyone else want a closing word on this?

15:01:07 [iv_an_ru]

When I wrote spec for "my" SPARUL, I did not know that Andy had written similar thing right at the same time. And the only difference between two independently written spec was INSERT IN vs. INSERT INTO spelling. That resembles King Jame's Bible, so that's word of truth ;)

15:01:12 [AndyS]

ack pgearon

15:01:20 [ericP]

ack me

15:01:26 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to make sure i understand where SPARUL sits

15:01:35 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: What I got out was this: do we have additive, editing and replacing for insert

15:01:53 [Zakim]

-kjetil

15:02:03 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: I understand SPARUL as everything, but protocol level stuff is a subset

15:02:25 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: do we want just protocol or protocol+language

15:02:27 [AndyS]

Submission did not cover protocol - no common agreement

15:02:47 [AndyS]

or just language.

15:02:47 [SteveH]

+1 PUT and DELETE is not enough

15:02:53 [pgearon]

+1 on update language

15:02:59 [SteveH]

but standardising it would be good, given that it's common

15:03:03 [Zakim]

-iv_an_ru

15:03:18 [LukeWM]

ericP: there is still demand for an update language - people will ask for it if we just give then PUT and DELETE

15:03:31 [iv_an_ru]

(ups, somtehing wrong with phone)

15:03:42 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: does anyone want just PUT and DELETE?

15:03:56 [AxelPolleres2]

Conclusions of today:

15:04:06 [AxelPolleres2]

1) more than PUT DELETE needed

15:04:18 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: should we have both?

15:04:26 [LukeWM]

SteveH: I think we need both.

15:04:32 [AxelPolleres2]

2) sitll writing down PUT DELETE would be nice (?)

15:04:46 [LukeWM]

ericP: Doesn't it just fall out of HTTP?

15:05:05 [LukeWM]

SteveH: so many people already implement it, it would be a shame not to have it.

15:05:17 [SimonS]

+1 to AxelsPolleres2's 2)

15:05:22 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: lets get this to a mail discussion

15:05:46 [LukeWM]

ericP: Steve, we'll do this on the phone later and then have a mail discussion.

15:06:09 [LukeWM]

AxelPolleres2: lets adjourn

15:06:14 [Zakim]

-Prateek

15:06:15 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:06:16 [Zakim]

-john-l

15:06:20 [Zakim]

-kasei

15:06:26 [AxelPolleres2]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:06:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/26-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres2

15:06:26 [LukeWM]

scribe is leaving, say what you like!

15:06:34 [Zakim]

-AlexPassant

15:06:36 [Zakim]

-bijan

15:07:35 [LukeWM_]

LukeWM_ has joined #sparql

15:07:35 [SteveH]

http://example.com/sparql/http://example.com/data.rdf

15:07:43 [SteveH]

PUT http://example.com/sparql/http://example.com/data.rdf

15:07:54 [AxelPolleres2]

ACTION: Steve to summarize issue discussed in the end of the telecon regarding PUT

15:07:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-34 - Summarize issue discussed in the end of the telecon regarding PUT [on Steve Harris - due 2009-06-02].

15:08:05 [AxelPolleres2]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:08:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/26-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres2

15:08:22 [ericP]

connect to example.com:80 and issue "PUT http://example.com/data.rdf"

15:08:54 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres2

15:09:05 [AndyS]

Steve - where's this documented? Maybe a link to the list?

15:09:13 [SteveH]

documented?

15:09:56 [AndyS]

I thought you said this was proxy and "well known" - or at least "known"

15:10:09 [SteveH]

"known" :) it's pretty old syntax

15:10:59 [AndyS]

Is it written down? Think it woudl help to point to the original material for everyone.

15:11:09 [SteveH]

probably

15:12:53 [ericP]

direct: connect to example.com:80: GET /foo/bar

15:13:11 [ericP]

proxy: connect to proxy.com:8888: GET http://example.com/foo/bar

15:13:28 [AndyS]

HOST?

15:13:58 [ivan]

ivan has left #sparql

15:14:18 [AndyS]

AndyS has joined #sparql

15:14:20 [ericP]

looking for /sparql/http://example.com/data.rdf

15:14:41 [ericP]

/sparql preempts it looking for the rest of the path

15:15:14 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:15:36 [kasei]

kasei has left #sparql

15:16:35 [SteveH]

LOAD <http://example.com/data.rdf">http://example.com/data.rdf> INTO <http://example.com/data.rdf>

15:16:54 [ericP]

LOAD <http://data.com/data.rdf> INTO <http://repository.com/data.rdf>

15:17:56 [SimonS]

@ericP: I think MINUS/SeRQL is different from MINUS/RQL, which basically is UNSAID. Will update the WikiPage.

15:18:20 [Zakim]

-SimonS

15:18:41 [ericP]

FROM NAMED <http://data.com/data.rdf> CACHED AS <file://localhost/home/steve/Desktop/data.rdf>

15:20:10 [SteveH]

except it's the "other" localhost :) 'cos it's client side

15:20:12 [ericP]

FROM NAMED <http://data.com/data.rdf> CACHED AS <file://localhost/usr/local/squid/http://data.com/data.rdf>

15:20:54 [pgearon]

This is quite interesting, but we do it using a completely different approach (this one here may be better)

15:21:09 [iv_an_ru]

I'd prefer to have FROM <...> OPTIONS (anything)

15:22:10 [iv_an_ru]

or pragmas, but in any case there should be an "expandable" syntax with an ability to safely ignore what's not understood.

15:30:54 [SteveH]

curl -T file.rdf http://foo.com/graph/

15:31:11 [SteveH]

curl -T file.rdf http://foo.com/graph/bar.com/file.rdf

15:31:34 [SteveH]

curl -T file.rdf http://foo.com/graph/http://bar.com/file.rdf

15:31:40 [ericP]

curl -T file.rdf http://foo.com/graph/?name=http://bar.com/file.rdf

15:33:49 [SteveH]

echo "some triples" | curl -T - http://foo.com/graph/?name=http://bar.com/file.rdf

15:35:52 [SteveH]

echo "some triples" | curl -T - http://store.qdos.com/graph/?name=http://foaf.qdos.com/data/eric.rdf

15:36:29 [SimonS]

SimonS has left #sparql

15:36:39 [ericP]

echo "some triples" | curl -T - http://foaf.qdos.com/data/eric.rdf

15:38:16 [Zakim]

-Lee_Feigenbaum

15:55:35 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:57:27 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

15:57:36 [SteveH_]

SteveH_ has joined #sparql

16:01:28 [ivan]

ivan has joined #sparql

16:08:38 [Zakim]

-pgearon

16:13:38 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, [Garlik], in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM

16:13:42 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

16:13:44 [Zakim]

Attendees were +353914aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb, Lee_Feigenbaum, EricP, Ivan, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, kjetil, +049261287aacc, SimonS, john-l, SteveH, LukeWM, bijan, pgearon,

16:13:46 [Zakim]

... iv_an_ru, Prateek, AxelPolleres2

17:51:46 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

18:03:37 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #sparql

18:34:40 [LeeF]

LeeF has joined #sparql

19:04:10 [LeeF]

LeeF has joined #sparql

20:04:38 [LeeF]

LeeF has joined #sparql

21:40:55 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

23:17:44 [LeeF]

LeeF has joined #sparql