IRC log of svg on 2009-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:32:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
06:32:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
06:32:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:32:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:32:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:32:50 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
06:32:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:32:51 [trackbot]
Date: 18 May 2009
06:33:20 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:33:28 [Zakim]
06:33:32 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
06:33:32 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:33:41 [Zakim]
06:33:53 [Zakim]
06:33:57 [ed]
Zakim, ??P2
06:33:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P2', ed
06:34:00 [ed]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
06:34:00 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
06:35:03 [Zakim]
06:35:07 [Zakim]
06:35:11 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
06:35:11 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:35:15 [jwatt]
Zakim, who's here?
06:35:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see heycam, [IPcaller], ed, Doug_Schepers, anthony
06:35:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, heycam, jwatt, anthony, ed, ed_work, shepazu, karl, trackbot
06:35:33 [jwatt]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
06:35:33 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
06:35:54 [heycam]
06:35:57 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
06:36:16 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:36:31 [anthony]
Topic: Revision of Param Spec
06:36:55 [Zakim]
06:37:03 [ChrisL]
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06:37:05 [anthony]
DS: I basically, changed the params spec around
06:37:08 [anthony]
... a fair bit
06:37:27 [anthony]
... I took out the ref element
06:37:31 [anthony]
... and added the param elemnt
06:37:41 [shepazu]
06:37:44 [shepazu]
06:37:45 [shepazu]
06:37:56 [anthony]
... which is equivalent to the object param in HTML
06:38:19 [anthony]
... I basically the param functional notation takes the parameter name as an argument
06:38:26 [anthony]
... as opposed to the indirection I had before
06:38:34 [anthony]
... it also highlights how you can use the fall back value
06:38:45 [anthony]
... instead of having to use a separate element for that
06:39:17 [anthony]
... you use it a second value for the param property
06:39:43 [shepazu]
attribute-name="param(string) [optional-string]"
06:40:09 [anthony]
DS: Optional string would be the default value
06:40:20 [anthony]
... I also cleaned up the IDL
06:40:33 [anthony]
... for the parameters and the window parameter interfaces
06:40:49 [anthony]
... and started talking about how we might put params into CSS
06:41:07 [anthony]
... I reworked all the examples in the Primier
06:41:15 [anthony]
06:41:18 [anthony]
... to use the new syntax
06:41:25 [shepazu]
06:41:34 [anthony]
... I added an example for adding parameterised use elements
06:41:44 [anthony]
... the very last example
06:42:38 [anthony]
... we've talked about how markers and use elements, it's hard to do anything useful with them
06:42:45 [anthony]
... if you want to change parameters on them
06:42:57 [anthony]
CM: One advantage of this parameterisation use here
06:43:08 [anthony]
... is it's not very heavy weight
06:43:25 [anthony]
... substituting in one value is pretty easy
06:43:38 [anthony]
DS: With different values you can get quite different results
06:44:01 [anthony]
CM: Basically when you evaluate paint server references, you evaluate the paint at that point
06:44:10 [anthony]
... rather than the definition time
06:44:15 [anthony]
DS: When you are using something
06:44:19 [anthony]
... the shadow tree is changed
06:44:29 [anthony]
... it's treated at its own document
06:45:20 [anthony]
... I don't see how you could it any other way
06:45:30 [anthony]
CM: Probably the way implementations are handling paint servers
06:45:34 [anthony]
... might have to change
06:45:56 [anthony]
... they are kind of global at the moment, well their instances are
06:46:06 [anthony]
... that scoped thing could be interesting anyway
06:46:18 [anthony]
DS: I resolved that in the my script library by cloning the element
06:46:26 [anthony]
... then changing the IDs and ID refs
06:46:45 [anthony]
... this kind of effects use
06:46:55 [ChrisL]
So, can you say <path d="param(foo) M1 2 L 3 4" /> ?
06:47:11 [anthony]
CM: It would be interesting to see what XBL does
06:47:24 [anthony]
CL: Obviously it has to solve the same problem
06:47:36 [anthony]
... Is this restricted or can you use it on any attribute?
06:47:55 [anthony]
DS: The way I saw it was that it could be used by any attribute
06:48:00 [anthony]
... yes, could be used on a path
06:48:25 [ChrisL]
suggest another example where an animation is parameterised, in that case
06:48:26 [anthony]
... the way I'd like to see it is, that for elements with attribute values that don't take lists you can use the fallback
06:48:36 [anthony]
... for the ones that do take lists you can't use the fall back
06:49:00 [anthony]
CL: I suggest in that case to provide an animation example
06:49:05 [anthony]
... if you provide it as a child
06:49:08 [anthony]
... then parameterise that
06:49:15 [anthony]
... you could have multiple ones of them
06:49:29 [anthony]
DL: You might want to use this as only part of a value
06:49:34 [shepazu]
06:49:36 [shepazu]
For user agents which conform to this specification, the ‘param’ attribute value must be available as a value on any SVG attribute. For attributes which take a list as a value, each ‘param’ attribute value used shall constitute a separate value on that list. For attributes which do not take a list as a value, the following syntax must be applied to attribute values which use a ‘param’ attribute value:
06:49:43 [shepazu]
06:49:55 [ed]
could you do <path d="param(foo) param(bar) M1 0 ..."> ?
06:49:58 [anthony]
06:50:06 [anthony]
DS: [reads out text]
06:50:12 [anthony]
... ED, exactly, yes
06:50:29 [anthony]
... You could pass in parameters that would be components of a path
06:50:40 [anthony]
... you could get some rather interesting effects that way
06:50:57 [anthony]
ED: My question was is it possible to have multiple levels of params?
06:51:04 [anthony]
DS: I think that might complicate things
06:51:09 [anthony]
... I can see a use for it
06:51:22 [anthony]
... Looking at the flower example
06:51:25 [anthony]
... if we had that
06:51:28 [anthony]
... and some of the values
06:51:32 [anthony]
... instead of a gradient
06:51:36 [anthony]
... they wanted a solid fill
06:51:42 [anthony]
... they could just pass in a single value
06:51:58 [anthony]
... then in the gradient I could say, in stop one use petal one
06:52:06 [anthony]
... and for stop two use petal two
06:52:13 [anthony]
... and if they don't provide one
06:52:17 [anthony]
... use the previous
06:53:16 [anthony]
CM: You're not really thinking of it as a string substitution in the list?
06:53:18 [anthony]
DS: I am
06:53:29 [anthony]
CL: That is not clear from the spec currently
06:53:33 [anthony]
DS: I think you're right
06:54:19 [anthony]
CL: Might need to define how to do the parsing
06:54:22 [anthony]
... two level parsing model
06:54:33 [anthony]
... when you construct the attribute with the param
06:54:39 [anthony]
... then parse it as per normal
06:54:42 [anthony]
... that needs to be defined
06:54:53 [anthony]
... A two stage parsing thing might be a good thing to point out
06:55:12 [anthony]
CM: Advantages I saw to using this functional syntax is
06:55:20 [anthony]
... it gels well with CSS properties
06:55:37 [ChrisL]
first stage looks for params and the second stage parses the result according to whatever the attribute value was originally defined as
06:55:41 [anthony]
... There may be more scope with conflicts with values that can be accepted at th emoment
06:55:56 [anthony]
DS: I think if we going to do something like this, now is the time to do it
06:56:12 [anthony]
CM: I can see people saying why not use the braces similar to XSLT
06:56:26 [anthony]
DS: Curly braces?
06:56:30 [anthony]
CM: Yes
06:56:42 [anthony]
DS: That would match what Adobe do FXG
06:56:52 [anthony]
... it's their universal interchange format for XML
06:56:58 [anthony]
... for all their products
06:57:10 [anthony]
... there is post about why they didn't use SVG
06:58:18 [anthony]
... I'm fine with that idea of use braces
06:58:28 [anthony]
... if we are going to more with it like Calc
06:58:33 [anthony]
... then might have problems
06:58:43 [anthony]
... not concerned about the syntax at the moment
06:58:51 [anthony]
CM: Might consider doing it that way
06:58:57 [anthony]
... if it's string substitution
06:59:27 [anthony]
... it's what level you think that it is operating on
06:59:43 [anthony]
... if you are using the CSS DOM to get the value of param
06:59:51 [anthony]
... what do you get?
07:00:04 [anthony]
CL: What you should get back is what you would've gotten back normally
07:00:15 [anthony]
... the only difference is you give it an ID to later change it
07:00:49 [anthony]
DS: Currently it's a similar model to CSS
07:01:07 [anthony]
CM: Maybe it makes sense to expose the computed things in the animated DOM
07:01:55 [anthony]
DS: Ultimately all these things should be moving to the same model
07:02:00 [anthony]
... where it makes sense
07:02:08 [anthony]
... I modified my script library
07:02:18 [anthony]
... to take into account this param use syntax
07:02:27 [anthony]
... It did increase the size of my code
07:02:36 [anthony]
... but I did have to implement a fake shadow tree
07:02:49 [anthony]
... for people that already implement a shadow tree
07:03:02 [anthony]
.. it shouldn't be too much of a burden
07:03:22 [anthony]
ED: I'm wondering if this spec here is saying we are adding a param in the SVG name space?
07:03:27 [anthony]
... I don't think that is a good idea
07:03:33 [anthony]
... because it will conflict with HTML param
07:03:44 [anthony]
... and it's similar to what we are doing with listener
07:03:55 [anthony]
... I think it would be better to say that this element is from HTML
07:03:58 [anthony]
... and is that name space
07:04:07 [anthony]
... I sent an email to SVG and to HTML
07:04:20 [anthony]
s/... I/DS: I/
07:04:33 [anthony]
DS: Us adding elements into the SVG name space would be a good thing
07:04:37 [anthony]
... from what I gathered
07:04:47 [anthony]
... I do understand the about the conflicts problem
07:05:22 [anthony]
CL: On one hand you don't want to be flipping between SVG and HTML
07:05:30 [shepazu]
s/conflicts/chameleon namespace/
07:06:11 [heycam]
A problem with requiring having <param> namespaced to be in HTML is that people will use a prefix, and that that's not going to work well with SVG parsing in text/html.
07:06:44 [anthony]
ED: But if you're parsing param elements in Text HTML
07:06:51 [anthony]
... you'd get the param element in HTML by default at the moment
07:06:59 [anthony]
CM: So something has to be changed
07:07:31 [anthony]
DS: I thought about it, if it comes down to us pleasing the HTML working group vs making things easier for authors
07:07:35 [ChrisL]
Designing XML/Web Languages: A Review of Common Mistakes
07:07:39 [anthony]
... I'd rather make things easier for authors
07:08:08 [anthony]
CL: If you look at Robin's paper he calls it out as a specific thing
07:08:18 [anthony]
... we should've brought that stuff into our own name space
07:08:24 [anthony]
... which is reasonable
07:08:38 [anthony]
DS: In support of that, if we are thinking about the open web stack
07:09:13 [anthony]
... having features in one language in another language helps people understand that feature in the other language
07:10:44 [anthony]
... There was another piece of feedback from Robin
07:10:57 [anthony]
... if you're going to import param, import object
07:11:04 [anthony]
... just use object
07:11:23 [anthony]
... and don't change the inheritance model of use
07:11:35 [anthony]
CL: I think we are already changing the inheritance model
07:12:18 [anthony]
CM: use is a pain to implement, because you copy the exact same properties of an element
07:12:25 [anthony]
DS: We could make a new element
07:12:36 [anthony]
... that isn't a pain to implement
07:12:59 [anthony]
... we could rely on the params spec to change various different things
07:13:22 [anthony]
... for now I think we should say we have a param element, anything that references can use it
07:13:44 [anthony]
... we could make a property called "parameters" that would take a name of list value pairs
07:13:59 [anthony]
... it could also be use from within CSS as well
07:14:33 [anthony]
CL: If we start saying things like you can use this with any CSS property we may run into trouble
07:14:39 [anthony]
DS: We'd have to check with them first
07:15:02 [anthony]
... this one would just be "parameters" the only thing it does is it passes in parameters
07:15:41 [anthony]
CM: How is the referencing of parameters done with that?
07:15:49 [heycam]
parameters="fill=param(whatever), ..."
07:16:04 [anthony]
DS: It would be a pass in parameters
07:16:12 [anthony]
... not a way to receive parameters
07:16:47 [shepazu]
parameters="color:red; outline:green; label:hello;"
07:17:11 [anthony]
DS: Instead of having a param element you'd have this property
07:17:40 [anthony]
CM: So what Chris said about defining how CSS properties work, this would still have that problem?
07:17:43 [anthony]
DS: Yes
07:17:56 [ChrisL]
(found robinb's paper: )
07:18:15 [anthony]
DS: I don't think the spec is done yet
07:18:21 [anthony]
... I'll take this feedback into account
07:18:31 [anthony]
... it's a better syntax and a better mechanism
07:18:55 [anthony]
... I'd like to republish with the new syntax and examples
07:19:00 [anthony]
CL: I have no problems with that
07:19:41 [anthony]
ED: Does the spec define what happens if you change the param in another document?
07:19:47 [anthony]
... does it have the resource
07:19:53 [anthony]
... is that implementation independent
07:20:16 [anthony]
... I'm not 100% sure if you change those params if they have some effect on the plug in for example
07:20:28 [anthony]
... I think it should be defined what should happen in such cases
07:20:33 [anthony]
DS: I have defined it in the spec
07:20:40 [anthony]
ED: Ok, maybe I haven't seen it
07:20:46 [anthony]
DS: Let me see if I can find it
07:20:56 [anthony]
CM: Plug ins if they want to notice changed param values
07:21:04 [anthony]
... they can look up the document watch those things
07:21:07 [shepazu]
07:21:09 [shepazu]
The user agent must make all of these parameters which have been set at the load time of the target file immediately available, and must also update the list of parameters immediately within the file when they are changed in the referencing file, or in the URL query string.
07:21:11 [shepazu]
07:22:03 [anthony]
DS: If somebody changes something, then it should change straight away
07:22:11 [anthony]
... I'm not sure if that's even defined in HTML 5
07:22:43 [heycam]
Not sure propagating changes to URL query string parameters to the param()s in the SVG document makes sense.
07:22:48 [Zakim]
07:22:55 [ChrisL]
yeah thats a difference betweena query string and a fragment. ? gets sent to the server
07:23:05 [heycam]
Since the query string is outside the document; changing those in the <object data=""> would refetch a document.
07:23:31 [Zakim]
07:23:38 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
07:23:38 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
07:24:03 [anthony]
CM: I noticed your button examples work in FF now
07:24:08 [anthony]
DS: I could've made them work before
07:24:19 [anthony]
... I was punishing FF for not having Tref
07:24:33 [anthony]
... I just went ahead and changing the implementation
07:24:57 [anthony]
CM: Where you asking whether we agree to publish this now?
07:25:03 [anthony]
DS: I say publish early publish often
07:25:17 [anthony]
CL: Your flowers don't work in Opera
07:25:24 [anthony]
ED: What version do they work in?
07:25:30 [anthony]
CL: FF beta 4
07:25:43 [anthony]
DS: I change the code quite a lot
07:26:00 [anthony]
... it is possible I didn't change the code for every browser
07:26:10 [anthony]
... your right
07:26:13 [anthony]
... it doesn't work in Opera
07:26:18 [anthony]
ED: I can have a look at it later
07:26:30 [anthony]
... I suspect it could be shadow tree stuff
07:26:46 [anthony]
DS: Probably something funky going on in my code
07:26:56 [anthony]
CL: Everything works except the flowers in Opera
07:27:09 [anthony]
CM: Are there any objections to republishing this?
07:27:44 [anthony]
[None heard]
07:27:48 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will republish the params specification
07:28:30 [anthony]
DS: The map is really stylised, it's not meant to be a real map
07:28:35 [anthony]
... I have an error in my code
07:28:42 [anthony]
... in Opera
07:29:02 [anthony]
Topic: "Clarify getSVGDocument behavior" erratum
07:29:06 [anthony]
07:29:15 [anthony]
CM: Was going through the errata document
07:29:18 [anthony]
... to get it ready for publishing
07:29:23 [heycam]
07:29:25 [anthony]
... came across one I was a bit unsure about
07:29:42 [anthony]
... this is about the getSVGDocument interface
07:29:47 [anthony]
... and the method of the same name
07:30:03 [anthony]
... the erratum says that this can return any object contained
07:30:15 [anthony]
... the IDL still says the method returns an SVG document
07:30:24 [anthony]
... so it's not possible to do this at the moment
07:30:31 [anthony]
... might want to change the IDL
07:30:57 [anthony]
... to have the return type of the document
07:30:59 [anthony]
... and keep that wording
07:31:08 [anthony]
... about it will return what ever document is being reference
07:31:23 [anthony]
... the second aspect of it
07:31:30 [anthony]
... was implementing this interface on the HTML object element
07:31:47 [anthony]
... I think it might be a good idea to have an indication of where this interface might be implemented
07:32:05 [anthony]
... If we want it to be implemented for compatibility I think we should keep the wording about HTML object
07:32:15 [anthony]
07:32:33 [anthony]
... any thoughts?
07:32:42 [anthony]
ED: Sounds fine
07:33:04 [anthony]
AG: I think the IDL should be changed
07:35:17 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Modify the erratum "Clarify getSVGDocument behavior" to also highlight the change require in the IDL
07:35:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2561 - Modify the erratum "Clarify getSVGDocument behavior" to also highlight the change require in the IDL [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-25].
07:35:19 [heycam]
07:35:34 [anthony]
CM: I have the errata in a nice form for publication
07:35:55 [anthony]
... can we get a resolution to publish the errata, pending the change from the action
07:37:19 [anthony]
... any objections?
07:37:23 [anthony]
[None heard]
07:37:25 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will publish the errata pending the change from the outstanding action of Cameron
07:37:56 [anthony]
Topic: "Clarification of lineto commands in the path syntax" erratum for 1.2T
07:38:18 [anthony]
CM: This issue applied Tiny 1.2 as well as Full 1.1
07:38:35 [anthony]
... the errata didn't get put into Tiny 1.2
07:39:05 [anthony]
ACTION: Anthony to Copy the erratum "Clarification of lineto commands in the path syntax" to the Tiny 1.2 errata
07:39:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2562 - Copy the erratum "Clarification of lineto commands in the path syntax" to the Tiny 1.2 errata [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-05-25].
07:40:09 [heycam]
07:56:14 [ChrisL]
08:00:09 [Zakim]
08:00:11 [Zakim]
08:00:11 [Zakim]
08:00:12 [Zakim]
08:00:13 [Zakim]
08:00:24 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
08:00:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were heycam, ed, Doug_Schepers, anthony, jwatt, ChrisL
08:00:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
08:01:15 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:01:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anthony
08:03:23 [shepazu]
ed: looks like Opera doesn't like <svg:param>
08:04:48 [ed]
08:05:10 [shepazu]
yeah, throws an error
08:05:14 [ed]
should be treated as an unknown element, but with everything preserved
08:05:37 [shepazu]
maybe it can't get the attributes list?
08:05:55 [shepazu]
anyway, if you have time, maybe you could look at it?
08:06:10 [ed]
sure, I'll take a look
08:06:27 [shepazu]
thanks :)
08:11:39 [ed] looks like the first one is the problem, @name
08:12:01 [ed]
el.attributes[1] works fine, but el.attributes[0] is "undefined"
08:12:23 [ed]
I think I know what's wrong, I'll try to push that fix into Opera 10 if possible
08:13:07 [ed]
bug: some known svg attributes didn't save the text if they failed parsing
08:13:38 [shepazu]
08:14:34 [shepazu]
I can work around the el.attributes[0] thing in my code
08:14:56 [ed]
well, if you know that it's always "name" and "value", getAttribute works fine
08:14:57 [shepazu]
the other bug... is that with my code, or opera?
08:15:26 [shepazu]
naw, that's not what its primary purpose is
08:15:54 [ed]
it's probably a known bug (already fixed), but I'll take a closer look when I get to work
08:16:22 [ed]
it's a bit weird since getAttribute worked, so that I'd like to have another look at
08:17:02 [ed]
08:17:03 [ed]
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09:08:44 [ed_work]
shepazu: why is FF the only browser to do the gradients?