14:48:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:48:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc
14:48:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:48:33 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:48:33 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:42 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:48:47 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
14:48:55 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:49:01 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:49:27 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton, Ben_Adida, Ralph_Swick
14:49:39 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:49:44 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:50:15 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html
14:50:24 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009May/0087.html
14:50:29 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
15:01:23 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:01:28 <benadida> hey folks, running 2-3 minutes late
15:02:04 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P10
15:02:18 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P10
15:02:18 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:02:43 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:43 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:44 <Zakim> +Steven
15:02:54 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:02:57 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:03:07 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
15:03:07 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:03:16 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:03:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny, Steven, ShaneM, Ralph
15:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, msporny, ShaneM, Steven
15:04:26 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:08:14 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:08:31 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-profiles -- RDFa Profiles
15:08:40 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:08:41 <msporny> -- done
15:08:47 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:08:51 <msporny> -- done
15:09:01 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:09:30 <msporny> benadida: This may be more important now
15:09:41 <msporny> benadida: Having a tool that can guide you if you do the wrong thing would be very useful.
15:10:12 <msporny> benadida: Because of the Google announcement this is important.
15:10:15 <msporny> -- continues
15:10:21 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:10:23 <msporny> -- continues
15:10:29 <msporny> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:10:32 <msporny> -- continues
15:10:58 <msporny> benadida: We should make some simple wizards for Google available.
15:11:09 <msporny> benadida: should create an open/fun projects for the RDFa community
15:11:19 <msporny> Ralph: Suggestions for undergraduate paper topics would be good.
15:11:30 <msporny> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:11:32 <msporny> -- continues
15:11:36 <msporny> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:11:38 <msporny> -- continues
15:11:48 <msporny> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:11:52 <msporny> -- continues
15:12:18 <msporny> Steven: Microformats celebrating Google announcement.
15:12:31 <msporny> Steven: Bay area meetup dinner to celebrate.
15:12:51 <msporny> benadida: Good for them
15:12:55 <msporny> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:12:58 <msporny> -- continues
15:13:03 <msporny> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:13:23 <msporny> -- continues
15:13:34 <msporny> Steven: RSS is an RDF format, right?
15:13:53 <msporny> benadida: Yeah, but it has an RDF Sequence/Bag in there - it's a bit wierd/nasty to implement
15:14:21 <msporny> Steven: If we markup each item, that would strike Ralph's action item.
15:14:27 <msporny> ShaneM: We already do this.
15:15:39 <msporny> *Collective celebratory cheers on Google support for RDFa*
15:16:00 <msporny> benadida: Thanks a bunch to the group and Ralph for his hard work in making that happen.
15:20:43 <msporny> benadida: We should extend as much support for Google as possible in the coming weeks/months.
15:23:34 <ShaneM> As an aside - we are updating aptest.com right now to use RDFa and the google annotations for some of our popular pages.
15:34:25 <benadida> interesting discussion: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/05/12/Microdata
15:35:38 <msporny> Topic: Future of RDFa - XG
15:35:58 <msporny> benadida: Does this make sense?
15:36:07 <msporny> benadida: What's the point of the incubator group?
15:36:20 <msporny> Ralph: In this context, the incubator group is somewhere between an IG and a WG.
15:36:33 <msporny> Ralph: and IG can produce a Note.
15:36:40 <msporny> benadida: To update the REC we need to be a WG?
15:36:54 <msporny> benadida: If we want to be able to update RDFa, we need to be a WG?
15:36:56 <msporny> Ralph: Yes.
15:37:04 <msporny> benadida: That takes a while to become a WG?
15:37:15 <msporny> Steven: The REC isn't a product of this task force anyway.
15:37:38 <msporny> Steven: We already have a WG that support the spec - Semantic Deployment WG, and XHTML2 WG.
15:38:02 <msporny> Ralph: SWD WG goes away soon, probably don't want to do XHTML2 WG.
15:38:21 <msporny> Ralph: It would be too much overhead in HTML WG to do this right now.
15:38:42 <msporny> Ralph: Goal is to produce a proposal specification.
15:39:00 <msporny> Ralph: The next step after that would be to produce a REC.
15:39:38 <msporny> Ralph: The best path is an IG to get RDFa in HTML proposed specification completed.
15:40:35 <msporny> Ralph: The IG would get all of the resources that we currently get in RDFa TF to keep minutes, telecon time, etc.
15:40:59 <msporny> Ralph: If SWIG was being run as a group that holds meetings, but they don't run that way, so it would be a bad fit.
15:41:25 <msporny> Ralph: We want to meet and get the technical work done - IG Note would be the best mechanism to do that.
15:41:39 <msporny> benadida: But we do want this to become a REC.
15:41:59 <msporny> Ralph: Yes, so the charter for the IG should be clear that the next step is to get the proposals to REC.
15:42:26 <msporny> benadida: I think the XG makes sense.
15:42:36 <msporny> Ralph: We need 3 W3C members sponsoring it.
15:44:11 <msporny> +1 for XG
15:45:25 <msporny> Ralph: HTML WG charter lists extension mechanism that allows RDF to be done - that is RDFa.
15:45:48 <msporny> benadida: Ralph can you talk about this at W3C?
15:45:52 <msporny> Ralph: yes.
15:46:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
15:46:14 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:46:21 <msporny> Ralph: We could also do it as a Task Force in SWIG, but it may not be a good fit.
15:47:40 <msporny> Topic: RDFa in HTML
15:47:45 <msporny> benadida: Shane?
15:48:00 <msporny> ShaneM: I put together a draft so that we had something to poke at.
15:48:09 <msporny> ShaneM: URL is in the IRC channel.
15:48:16 <msporny> ShaneM: A couple of issues that may be good to review.
15:48:50 <msporny> ShaneM: We could say that RDFa just works in HTML4 (because it does).
15:49:15 <msporny> ShaneM: The first issue is about announcement - How does a conforming RDFa processor know that the document contains RDFa?
15:49:40 <msporny> ShaneM: I talked with Manu a bit about this - DOCTYPE, or @version attribute, or @profile attribute with a specific value.
15:50:03 <msporny> Ralph: You actually don't need to do any of those things because of GRDDL...
15:50:15 <msporny> ShaneM: I don't think the GRDDL spec does what we want.
15:50:22 <msporny> benadida: It works for XML documents, not for HTML4.
15:50:39 <msporny> ShaneM: No requirement that there should be a DOCTYPE, but it may be okay for us to say that there should be a DOCTYPE.
15:51:22 <msporny> ShaneM: We should have pushed for DOCTYPE in XHTML1.1+RDFa more - that's how most user agents figure out which standards mode to enter.
15:51:45 <msporny> ShaneM: So, we might want to think about requring a DOCTYPE
15:52:02 <msporny> benadida: We should review that and in fairly short order, send it to the HTML WG.
15:52:36 <msporny> benadida: We should have HTML4 examples with RDFa in them.
15:53:08 <msporny> benadida: This document looks like it's taking the right approach.
15:53:20 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
15:53:29 <msporny> benadida: We should have a complete example, top to bottom.
15:53:48 <msporny> ShaneM: Didn't want to duplicate too much.
15:53:56 <msporny> ShaneM: Also, there is an issue about XML Literals.
15:54:11 <ShaneM> XMLLiterals:  If the object of a triple would be an XMLLiteral, but the resulting object     would not be well-formed [XML], then the processor     MUST NOT generate the triple.
15:56:17 <msporny> Manu: We don't require this in the RDFa spec.
15:56:35 <msporny> ShaneM: No, it's implied since it is in XHTML spec.
15:56:54 <msporny> Manu: Well it's a problem in HTML4.
15:57:33 <msporny> Ralph: We don't say what processors should do.
15:57:47 <msporny> ShaneM: It's up to the processor to make it well-formed.
15:57:59 <msporny> Steven: This would be an interoperability issue...
15:58:08 <msporny> ShaneM: One processor may generate it, another may not.
15:58:23 <msporny> ShaneM: We could say the input must be well-formed... or the output must be well-formed... or
15:58:38 <msporny> ShaneM: When the input is well formed, you can output an XML Literal, whent he input is not well-formed, you must output something else.
15:59:22 <msporny> benadida: To do RDFa, you have to have a DOM-based model.
15:59:27 <msporny> benadida: We assume a tree of nodes.
15:59:31 <msporny> ShaneM: I disagree.
16:00:23 <msporny> benadida: The fact that it is a tree, at some point you have some child nodes.
16:00:43 <msporny> benadida: You're going down some tree structure... you must have some well-formed representation of your child nodes. Not well-formed in the XML sense.
16:00:53 <msporny> ShaneM: The processing model isn't written that way.
16:01:11 <msporny> ShaneM: It says that the next thing coming is an XML Literal.
16:01:48 <msporny> benadida: Maybe I'm biased by my implementation?
16:02:08 <msporny> ShaneM: If you have a tree, you can generate well-formed output (by definition).
16:02:28 <msporny> Steven: HTML processors process HTML as a tree - the output is a serialization of that tree.
16:02:50 <msporny> ShaneM: We're talking about extracting triples from HTML... 
16:03:22 <msporny> Ralph: Sounds like you're objective would be to state that "you should only generate well-formed XML literals".
16:03:33 <msporny> benadida: When you put it that way, I don't like it.
16:04:07 <msporny> ShaneM: Also, this doesn't have anything to do with HTML5 - it has to do with HTML4.
16:04:18 <msporny> benadida: What's the other option? To not generate the triple?
16:04:27 <msporny> ShaneM: In terms of inter-operability - that is /the/ option.
16:04:34 <msporny> ShaneM: Every processor should generate the same triples.
16:04:44 <Ralph> s/you're/your
16:04:46 <msporny> ShaneM: If the input is not well-formed, then don't generate the triple.
16:04:55 <msporny> thanks ralph :)
16:05:20 <Ralph> s/only generate well-formed XML literals"./only generate well-formed XML literals and may do that even if the input is not well-formed".".
16:06:07 <msporny> ShaneM: If you're able to make the input well-formed, then do so.
16:06:16 <msporny> Ralph: Not comfortable with that approach.
16:06:32 <msporny> Ralph: We should depend on adopting the solutions that give us the greatest amount of interoperability.
16:06:50 <msporny> benadida: Is there anything close to an "HTMLLiteral"?
16:07:15 <msporny> ShaneM: We could say "if the input is well-formed, then you can produce an XML Literal"
16:07:26 <msporny> ShaneM: If the input is not well-formed, output an RDF string.
16:07:42 <msporny> benadida: as long as we can round-trip it.
16:07:54 <msporny> Ralph: That choice is attractive, except for one thing.
16:08:07 <msporny> Ralph: There may be an algorithm for XML serialization of tag soup.
16:08:22 <msporny> Ralph: If we require that non-well-formed things be anything, it makes it difficult to adopt that algorithm in the future.
16:08:32 <msporny> Ralph: I'd rather not generate the triples today.
16:08:44 <msporny> Steven: gotta go
16:08:55 <msporny> benadida: The options we have on the table 
16:09:01 <msporny> benadida: 1) Don't generate the triple.
16:09:07 <msporny> benadida: 2) Find an XML Serialization for it.
16:09:16 <msporny> 3) If it's not well-formed, make it an RDF escaped string.
16:09:33 <msporny> s/3) If it's not well-formed, make it an RDF escaped string./Ben: 3) If it's not well-formed, make it an RDF escaped string./
16:09:48 <msporny> Ralph: Some people will treat strings equivalent to XML Literals.
16:10:11 <msporny> Ralph: The real-world doesn't like it when you punt on first-error... browsers don't punt on first-error.
16:10:20 <msporny> Ralph: People get unhappy when their page doesn't display.
16:10:36 <msporny> benadida: Maybe this is a way to coerce people into writing well-formed XML :) (joke)
16:10:56 <msporny> Ralph: We should make it easier for them to write the correct markup.
16:11:09 <msporny> ShaneM: This is a very niche thing... 
16:11:39 <msporny> ShaneM: The data that gets encoded isn't a web page, it's a title of a book that has markup.
16:12:59 <msporny> benadida: It is a niche case.
16:13:25 <benadida> <span property="dc:title" datatype="">foo<em>bar</span>
16:13:36 <benadida> foobar
16:14:30 <benadida> <span property="dc:title" datatype="">foo<br>bar</span>
16:14:34 <Zakim> -Steven
16:15:35 <Ralph> alternatively "foo&lt;br>bar"
16:16:55 <Ralph> Ben: no, if the author used @datatype="" they clearly meant the embedded tag to be dropped
16:16:59 <Ralph> Ralph: OK, I see your reasoning
16:17:21 <benadida> <br> --> <br />
16:17:35 <msporny> benadida: that would be an XML Literal if you did the transform.
16:18:03 <msporny> ShaneM: If the author wants to preserve content that is not well-formed, there is an alternative.
16:18:25 <msporny> benadida: if it's anything other than XMLLiteral, we strip the non-text nodes for everything other than XMLLiteral.
16:18:35 <ShaneM> If the object of a triple would be an XMLLiteral, but the input to the processor is not well-formed [XML], then the processor MUST NOT generate the triple.
16:18:38 <msporny> benadida: The only option I think I support is no triple generation.
16:19:22 <msporny> Ralph: you can force a triple to be generated with mal-formed input.
16:19:33 <msporny> benadida: Generally, we don't support non-well-formed markup in a literal.
16:19:56 <msporny> benadida: We should review the document that Shane's put together. Send comments on the list ASAP.
16:20:47 <msporny> Ralph: Maybe the IG should work on this document. Does it make a difference if we publish an early version of the document.
16:20:54 <msporny> Ralph: I don't think it makes a difference.
16:21:00 <msporny> benadida: Okay, discuss on the mailing list.
16:22:41 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:22:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:22:58 <msporny> Regrets: Mark_Birbeck, Michael_Hausenblas
16:23:02 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:23:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:23:43 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:23:48 <Zakim> -msporny
16:23:49 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:23:51 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:23:52 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:23:54 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, Steven, Ralph, ShaneM, Ben_Adida
16:23:59 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:23:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:26:22 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
16:30:30 <Ralph> [I'm fixing several references to IG in the scribing of my comments, as I was not on-line to correct in realtime.]
16:34:08 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [1]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-08-40
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [2]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-08-47
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [3]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-09-01
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [4]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-10-21
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [5]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-10-29
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [6]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-11-30
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [7]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-11-36
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [8]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-11-48
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [9]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-12-55
16:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [10]
16:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-rdfa-irc#T15-13-03