12:45:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
12:45:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-irc
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12:45:50 <jar> zakim, this will be awwsw
12:45:50 <Zakim> ok, jar; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
12:46:23 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #awwsw
12:48:41 <mhausenblas> hi there
12:50:12 <mhausenblas> not sure if we have a fixed agenda (didn't see one)  ...
12:51:51 <mhausenblas> so FYI, after last telecon I took TimBL's http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont# ontology and turned it into a diagrams
12:52:01 <mhausenblas> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams
12:52:10 <mhausenblas> this may help us today
13:00:19 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
13:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.781.643.aaaa
13:00:40 <jar> hi.
13:01:14 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
13:01:16 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
13:01:16 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
13:01:36 <jar> zakim, +1.781 is jar
13:01:36 <Zakim> +jar; got it
13:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aabb
13:02:07 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is David
13:02:07 <Zakim> +David; got it
13:05:33 <Zakim> +Alan
13:05:58 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
13:06:07 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
13:06:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see jar, mhausenblas, David, Alan
13:06:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, mhausenblas, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, trackbot
13:07:12 <mhausenblas> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams
13:07:24 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#
13:07:45 <Zakim> +TimBL
13:10:22 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:10:34 <dbooth> rrsagent, where am i?
13:10:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-irc#T13-10-34
13:10:54 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
13:11:59 <jar> What is an example of an IR that is not time generic?
13:12:19 <jar> Are time generic and time specific mutually exclusive?
13:12:53 <jar> TimBL: Let's try where they're disjoint.
13:15:42 <jar> Michael: How about if we look for an example of each of the classes?
13:15:44 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:16:10 <timbl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2009May/0071.html is time-specific
13:17:20 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/TR/ is time-generic
13:18:44 <jar> time-specific = has same representations at all times?
13:20:05 <dbooth> forall time t1, t2 and any other request inputs i1, i2, f(t1, i1)=f(t2, i2).
13:20:44 <jar> A resource can be updated, but if it's time specific, then the update doesn't lead to changes in the representations?
13:20:49 <jar> can't?
13:21:07 <dbooth> hmm, the rule that I just gave also fixes it over other inputs.   Not sure that was the intent.
13:21:33 <mhausenblas> q+
13:21:57 <dbooth> Okay, lemme try again: forall time t1, t2 and for any input i, f(t1, i) = f(t2, i).
13:22:06 <mhausenblas> wondering if the TAG finding http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html is of any help (and/or has been taken into account so far)
13:22:10 <jar> if time specific, then when i do an http operation, then i don't need to redo a GET, because it's not changing
13:22:21 <jar> (that was me recording TimBL)
13:22:48 <jar> ack next
13:22:48 <mhausenblas> ack me
13:25:39 <timbl> It does highliht the ,medium as a dimension.
13:25:52 <timbl> (print, laptop, mobile, screen etc)
13:27:05 <timbl> mh, the arrows in the diagram at the bottom of the finding above are links, not relationships.
13:27:29 <timbl> into design issues
13:28:19 <alanr> watch out: two spellings (capitalization) of [tT]imeSpecificResource and [cC]ontentTypeSpecificResource
13:28:45 <jar> David, your "for all time..." needs to be qualified: the equation need only hold when both are defined.
13:28:52 <timbl> yes, property and class
13:30:25 <jar> TimBL:  a GR is *not* determined solely by its representations
13:30:29 <dbooth> jar, when both what are defined?
13:30:34 <alanr> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=genont-classtree.png
13:30:42 <alanr> just the class/subclass relations
13:30:46 <jar> both f(t1, i) and f(t2, i)
13:31:06 <dbooth> hmm, interesting point.
13:31:52 <jar> can the set of all r such that r is a representation of g (for some g) be infinite?
13:32:04 <jar> TimBL: Can be.
13:32:44 <jar> TimBL: When we measure it via HTTP, we can only make a finite number of measurements.
13:34:03 <timbl> E.g my blog can contain an ad which has a random integer generated at run time which is unbounded.
13:34:56 <timbl> One deosn't normally
13:37:03 <jar> There is a relationship between the server and the generic resource
13:37:31 <dbooth> jar; What do I learn about the resource by doing a GET?
13:37:41 <dbooth> dbooth: You learn what one of its representations is.
13:38:18 <jar> What do I learn about a generic resource by doing a GET?
13:38:28 <jar> I learn that the returned entity is a rep of the resource, right?
13:39:26 <timbl> yes
13:41:21 <jar> Trust is orthogonal to authority, right?
13:41:28 <timbl> if the returns status was 200
13:41:58 <dbooth> q+ to answer jonathan's question: By doing a GET on a URI and getting a 200 result, you learn: (1) that the URI identifies an IR; and (2) you learn one of its representations.
13:42:55 <jar> TimBL: Happy to not talk about authority issues just now
13:42:56 <jar> q?
13:44:14 <jar> TimBL: You seem to think the ontology as if it exists in isolation
13:44:38 <jar> could someone scribe?
13:45:36 <dbooth> timbl:  by sticking RDF in the metadata about a document (indicating that the resource is time-specific IR) then I know that there is no need to fetch it again later.
13:45:41 <dbooth> (paraphrased)
13:46:33 <jar> The boundary around an ontology is arbitrary
13:46:38 <jar> (that was TimBL)
13:46:59 <jar> Sorry dbooth. you were on the q
13:47:28 <jar> TimBL: The ontologies aren't in a stack
13:49:02 <dbooth> Here's a little more I wrote for IRC that pertains to earlier discussion: 
13:49:18 <dbooth> I have treated ftrr:IR as a function of two inputs (Time x Request), but if desired we could break the Request input into separate inputs such as: Language, ContentType, Client, OtherRequestInput.
13:49:25 <dbooth> Then each *-specific resource would just be holding the representations constant across different values of that input.  So a language-specific resource would be:
13:49:31 <dbooth> forall Language l1, l1, and any Time t and ContentType ct and Client c and OtherRequestInput o: f(t, l1, ct, c, o) = f(t, l2, ct, c, o).
13:49:40 <jar> bye
13:49:45 <Zakim> -David
13:52:51 <jar> jar: Does there exist a GR g such that there is no R with R a representation of g (at any time)
13:52:52 <jar> ?
13:53:38 <jar> (In Roy's model, the answer is yes.)
13:55:42 <jar> TimBL: Boundary case we don't care about.
13:56:12 <jar> E.g. something you can PUT or POST to, but you never get a 200
13:57:02 <jar> michael: Not sure that's a border case
13:59:31 <jar> I get confused because we go back and forth between ontology and protocol
14:00:02 <jar> TimBL: It would be mathematically useful to have a GR that no reps.
14:00:53 <jar> e.g. no one has written one yet.
14:01:11 <timbl> Not practically useful 
14:01:54 <jar> Could you define G = the top resource? (every representation is a rep of G?)
14:02:02 <jar> TimBL: Yes, but not useful
14:02:20 <jar> So utility is not a requirement of a GR.
14:02:47 <jar> TimBL: Bad ideas are not outlawed by the ontology
14:03:23 <jar> TimBL: but in webarch, we say that consistency is a good idea [?]
14:03:36 <jar> can't we let the market decide?
14:04:06 <jar> TimBL: society will hold you to what you serve according to what it demands
14:04:14 <timbl> ~
14:05:09 <mhausenblas> Michael will take care of organising the next telecon on 26 May
14:05:27 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:05:37 <alanr> Here is a class tree with labels that describe how I understand what the intent is: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=genont-different-labels.png
14:05:48 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make logs public
14:06:44 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
14:06:53 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:07:01 <Zakim> -TimBL
14:07:01 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
14:07:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
14:07:02 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.781.643.aaaa, mhausenblas, jar, +1.512.342.aabb, David, Alan, TimBL
14:07:15 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:07:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:07:28 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
14:07:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items