14:52:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:52:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc
14:52:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:52:57 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:52:57 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:53:12 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:53:27 <msporny> Chair: Manu_Sporny
14:53:51 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
14:54:05 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html
14:54:18 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html
14:55:08 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:16 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:56:12 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ralph_Swick, Michael_Hausenblas, Mark_Birbeck
14:57:21 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:57:28 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:57:55 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:58:07 <Zakim> +??P7
14:58:12 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P7
14:58:12 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
14:58:48 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick victim
14:58:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick victim', mhausenblas
14:58:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick victim?
14:58:52 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
14:59:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, a pick victim
14:59:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'a pick victim', mhausenblas
14:59:10 <mhausenblas> Zakim, am I the victim?
14:59:10 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
14:59:19 <msporny> Zakim, pick a victim
14:59:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas
14:59:19 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:59:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:59:45 <mhausenblas> Scribenick: mhausenblas 
15:00:06 <Zakim> +??P8
15:00:06 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html
15:00:10 <mhausenblas> Topic: Action Items
15:00:12 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:00:13 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:01:15 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:01:51 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES]
15:02:02 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:02:26 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]
15:03:24 <Zakim> +??P14
15:03:31 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P14 is ShaneM
15:03:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:03:48 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:03:55 <mhausenblas> [NEW] ACTION: Manu to update wiki page on current consensus for @prefix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:04:12 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Alternate-prefix-declaration-mechanism
15:04:15 <mhausenblas> -- done
15:04:59 <Ralph> regrets+ Ben_Adida
15:06:06 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:06:16 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make logs public
15:08:14 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:08:18 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:08:24 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:08:27 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:08:33 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:08:37 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:08:50 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:08:57 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:09:11 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:09:14 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:09:20 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:09:24 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:10:20 <mhausenblas> Topic: RDFa Updates (RDFa use cases, HTML5 micro-data thread on WHATWG)
15:11:22 <mhausenblas> Michael: Re RDFa validator
15:11:25 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0089.html
15:12:42 <mhausenblas> looking http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/#rdfa-attributes
15:13:31 <mhausenblas> someone did href=[foaf:Person]
15:14:33 <Ralph> Michael: I wondered if we can write a validator that checks that each of the attribute values is of a correct type; CURIE, URI, etc.
15:14:42 <Ralph> Mark: no, I don't think this is easy
15:15:28 <Ralph> ... property="http:..." would be flagged as a CURIE but then later you'd notice that there was no 'http' prefix defined
15:15:44 <mhausenblas> @datatype="http://www.....org/xml/schema/string"
15:15:58 <mhausenblas> http: is the token
15:16:23 <Ralph> Mark: it's almost impossible to distinguish
15:16:36 <Ralph> Michael: but the URL schemes are registered
15:16:48 <mhausenblas> coming from http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
15:16:53 <Ralph> ... so perhaps one could note when registered schemes are mis-used as prefixes
15:17:07 <Ralph> Mark: sure, a validator could be as strict as it wants
15:17:29 <Ralph> ... but there CURIE spec does not disallow using 'http' as a prefix, nor any other scheme type
15:17:38 <Ralph> ... and I'd oppose such a restriction
15:17:59 <Ralph> Shane: I've seen people choose to define 'http' as a prefix; it's a useful workaround
15:18:15 <Ralph> ... I consider the ability to define http as a prefix is a feature
15:18:28 <Ralph> Manu: it's a nice trick but I don't think we should be recommending it
15:18:43 <Ralph> ... Michael's question is 'what advice should a validator give?'
15:19:00 <Ralph> .... the validator could just note when a registered scheme is used as a prefix, not disallow it
15:19:20 <Ralph> Shane: it's more important to flag cases where a CURIE prefix is used but never defined
15:19:55 <Ralph> Michael: I could validate strings starting with http: against the HTTP URI syntax spec
15:20:36 <Ralph> ... a warning or hint -- not error -- might help for other registered schemes, even though there may not be many that would accidentally be used by a document author
15:21:09 <Ralph> Mark: if the validator wants to complain about registered schemes as prefixes, then it should complain as soon as it sees xmlns:http=
15:21:51 <Ralph> Shane: it would be fine to say "This prefix has not been defined; it looks like you're trying to use a URI.  Here's what to do instead ..."
15:22:00 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-use-cases
15:22:15 <Ralph> scribenick: mhausenblas
15:22:33 <Ralph> i/Mark: it's almost/scribenick: ralph
15:22:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:22:43 <mhausenblas> msporny: we have some 25 UC now
15:22:47 <msporny> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019374.html
15:23:35 <Ralph> i/Michael: I wondered/scribenick: ralph
15:23:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:24:35 <Ralph> s/ACTION: [NEW] Manu to update wiki/ACTION: [DONE] Manu to update wiki
15:24:48 <mhausenblas> msporny: people are discussing UC
15:24:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:25:56 <Ralph> s/[NEW] Manu to update wiki/[DONE] Manu to update wiki
15:25:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:26:06 <mhausenblas> markbirbeck: RDFa works already fine in HTML5
15:26:29 <mhausenblas> ... we continue to support people that want to use it
15:27:05 <mhausenblas> ... and as a matter of fact people are using it
15:30:18 <mhausenblas> msporny: there seems to be a shift from non-data mechanism awareness to data awareness in HTML5
15:31:36 <mhausenblas> markbirbeck: it is clear that the authority is here, in the end
15:32:04 <mhausenblas> ... and we're happy to give them advise *how* to implement it in HTML5
15:33:10 <mhausenblas> ... RDFa has solved the decentralised voc management issue
15:33:31 <mhausenblas> ... and one should encourage HTML5 not to become incompatible
15:37:04 <mhausenblas> ShaneM: RDFa helps HTML5 to support the Semantic Web
15:37:34 <mhausenblas> q+
15:37:37 <ShaneM> RDFa helps EVERYTHING support the semantic web
15:38:17 <mhausenblas> Michael: there are other routes as well, just to note, for example http://ld2sd.deri.org/lod-ng-tutorial/
15:41:37 <mhausenblas> ShaneM: next time when Ben and Steven are around we might continue this
15:41:47 <mhausenblas> ack me
15:43:39 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity.
15:43:58 <mhausenblas> see also http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/lod-ng-tutorial/
15:44:21 <mhausenblas> Topic: OWL2 Manchester Syntax eschewing CURIEs - need to comment (Shane)
15:44:36 <mhausenblas> ShaneM: OWL WG decided not to use CURIEs
15:44:48 <mhausenblas> ... rational was not clear, sad, though
15:44:53 <markbirbeck> One more 'rdfa update': http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/04/23/more-rdfa-goodness-from-uk-government-web-sites
15:45:27 <mhausenblas> ShaneM: seems there was a misunderstanding with CURIEs (re XMLNS)
15:45:49 <mhausenblas> ... but that will change
15:46:30 <mhausenblas> ... they invented an abbreviated URI mechanism
15:46:31 <msporny> OWL2 Manchester Syntax document: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-manchester-syntax-20090421/
15:46:40 <mhausenblas> ... but not a CURIE, funny enough
15:48:09 <mhausenblas> ... XHTML2 WG will send in a LC comment to object re this
15:48:28 <msporny> +1 for commenting on CURIEs
15:48:32 <mhausenblas> +1
15:49:32 <mhausenblas> ShaneM: will prepare a comment for XHTML2 WG, RDFa TF may join
15:49:41 <mhausenblas> ... due on 12 May
15:49:54 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0007.html "OWL-WG comment on CURIE" [Sandro Hawke 2009-04-09]
15:51:42 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html "Various issues with using CURIEs in OWL" [Bijan Parsia 2009-04-09]
15:51:51 <mhausenblas> markbirbeck: RIF also refers to CURIEs
15:52:39 <Ralph> (the SPARQL REC is dated January 2008)
15:52:58 <mhausenblas> Michael: the new SPARQL Update might change this ;)
15:54:42 <mhausenblas> Topic: Framing the @profile discussion
15:54:43 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html
15:54:53 <mhausenblas> ->  http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles
15:55:09 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:57:33 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
15:57:48 <msporny> ShaneM: I think we need to define the requirements as well.
15:58:02 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
15:58:12 <msporny> ... we're trying to figure out a way to define CURIE rules external to the document.
15:58:23 <msporny> markbirbeck: I agree.
15:58:36 <ShaneM> where part of those rules include prefix mappings, and part include defining additional reserved words
15:58:43 <msporny> markbirbeck: Essentially, we want to get the same simplicity that Microformats has.
15:59:32 <msporny> markbirbeck: We might have a second use case - importing a collection of new tokens.
15:59:45 <msporny> ShaneM: but you could do it with another mechanism.
16:00:10 <msporny> ShaneM: That is a different problem than what we're currently discussing.
16:00:34 <msporny> markbirbeck: that is true, but where this is heading - how do we set ourselves up for a future that we know is coming?
16:02:33 <msporny> markbirbeck: we need to make sure the rules get placed into a separate graph.
16:02:56 <msporny> ShaneM: As long as we're generating triples, we should be good.
16:03:28 <msporny> markbirbeck: Are you saying that the external import mechanism is more important?
16:03:35 <msporny> ShaneM: I think they're different, not tied to one another.
16:05:05 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki.
16:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:08:01 <msporny> regrets+ Steven_Pemberton
16:10:36 <msporny> s/ACTION: \[NEW\] Manu to update wiki page on/ACTION: \[DONE\] Manu to update wiki page on/g
16:10:50 <msporny> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:10:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:11:04 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL SPARQL PN_LOCAL BNF (allowed chars in prefixed names)
16:12:33 <msporny> s/ACTION: [NEW] Manu to update wiki page on/ACTION: [DONE] Manu to update wiki page on/
16:13:14 <msporny> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:14:55 <msporny> thanks :)
16:15:20 <msporny> good call everyone :) - have a good weekend! Talk again in 2 weeks.
16:15:26 <Zakim> -msporny
16:20:30 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:20:33 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:20:35 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:20:36 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:20:38 <Zakim> Attendees were mhausenblas, Ralph, msporny, markbirbeck, ShaneM
16:28:23 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:28:23 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:28:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES] [1]
16:28:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-01-51
16:28:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES] [2]
16:28:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-02-26
16:28:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity. [3]
16:28:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-43-39
16:28:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [4]
16:28:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T16-05-05