IRC log of rdfa on 2009-04-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:41 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:52:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc

14:52:49 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

14:52:57 [msporny]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:52:57 [Zakim]

ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

14:53:12 [msporny]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force

14:53:27 [msporny]

Chair: Manu_Sporny

14:53:51 [Ralph]

Ralph has joined #rdfa

14:54:05 [msporny]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html

14:54:18 [msporny]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html

14:55:08 [msporny]

rrsagent, make log public

14:55:16 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:55:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

14:56:12 [msporny]

Present: Manu_Sporny, Ralph_Swick, Michael_Hausenblas, Mark_Birbeck

14:57:21 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

14:57:28 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas

14:57:55 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:58:07 [Zakim]

+??P7

14:58:12 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??P7

14:58:12 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

14:58:48 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, pick victim

14:58:48 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'pick victim', mhausenblas

14:58:52 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, pick victim?

14:58:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.

14:59:02 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, a pick victim

14:59:02 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'a pick victim', mhausenblas

14:59:10 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, am I the victim?

14:59:10 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.

14:59:19 [msporny]

Zakim, pick a victim

14:59:19 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas

14:59:19 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:59:21 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:59:45 [mhausenblas]

Scribenick: mhausenblas

15:00:06 [Zakim]

+??P8

15:00:06 [msporny]

http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html

15:00:10 [mhausenblas]

Topic: Action Items

15:00:12 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

15:00:13 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

15:01:15 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #rdfa

15:01:51 [mhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES]

15:02:02 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:02:26 [mhausenblas]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

15:03:24 [Zakim]

+??P14

15:03:31 [ShaneM]

zakim, ??P14 is ShaneM

15:03:31 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

15:03:48 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:03:55 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Manu to update wiki page on current consensus for @prefix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:04:12 [msporny]

http://rdfa.info/wiki/Alternate-prefix-declaration-mechanism

15:04:15 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:04:59 [Ralph]

regrets+ Ben_Adida

15:06:06 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:06:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

15:06:16 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, make logs public

15:08:14 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

15:08:18 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:08:24 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

15:08:27 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:08:33 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

15:08:37 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:08:50 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

15:08:57 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:09:11 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

15:09:14 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:09:20 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:09:24 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:10:20 [mhausenblas]

Topic: RDFa Updates (RDFa use cases, HTML5 micro-data thread on WHATWG)

15:11:22 [mhausenblas]

Michael: Re RDFa validator

15:11:25 [mhausenblas]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0089.html

15:12:42 [mhausenblas]

looking http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/#rdfa-attributes

15:13:31 [mhausenblas]

someone did href=[foaf:Person]

15:14:33 [Ralph]

Michael: I wondered if we can write a validator that checks that each of the attribute values is of a correct type; CURIE, URI, etc.

15:14:42 [Ralph]

Mark: no, I don't think this is easy

15:15:28 [Ralph]

... property="http:..." would be flagged as a CURIE but then later you'd notice that there was no 'http' prefix defined

15:15:44 [mhausenblas]

@datatype="http://www.....org/xml/schema/string"

15:15:58 [mhausenblas]

http: is the token

15:16:23 [Ralph]

Mark: it's almost impossible to distinguish

15:16:36 [Ralph]

Michael: but the URL schemes are registered

15:16:48 [mhausenblas]

coming from http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html

15:16:53 [Ralph]

... so perhaps one could note when registered schemes are mis-used as prefixes

15:17:07 [Ralph]

Mark: sure, a validator could be as strict as it wants

15:17:29 [Ralph]

... but there CURIE spec does not disallow using 'http' as a prefix, nor any other scheme type

15:17:38 [Ralph]

... and I'd oppose such a restriction

15:17:59 [Ralph]

Shane: I've seen people choose to define 'http' as a prefix; it's a useful workaround

15:18:15 [Ralph]

... I consider the ability to define http as a prefix is a feature

15:18:28 [Ralph]

Manu: it's a nice trick but I don't think we should be recommending it

15:18:43 [Ralph]

... Michael's question is 'what advice should a validator give?'

15:19:00 [Ralph]

.... the validator could just note when a registered scheme is used as a prefix, not disallow it

15:19:20 [Ralph]

Shane: it's more important to flag cases where a CURIE prefix is used but never defined

15:19:55 [Ralph]

Michael: I could validate strings starting with http: against the HTTP URI syntax spec

15:20:36 [Ralph]

... a warning or hint -- not error -- might help for other registered schemes, even though there may not be many that would accidentally be used by a document author

15:21:09 [Ralph]

Mark: if the validator wants to complain about registered schemes as prefixes, then it should complain as soon as it sees xmlns:http=

15:21:51 [Ralph]

Shane: it would be fine to say "This prefix has not been defined; it looks like you're trying to use a URI. Here's what to do instead ..."

15:22:00 [msporny]

http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-use-cases

15:22:15 [Ralph]

scribenick: mhausenblas

15:22:33 [Ralph]

i/Mark: it's almost/scribenick: ralph

15:22:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

15:22:43 [mhausenblas]

msporny: we have some 25 UC now

15:22:47 [msporny]

http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019374.html

15:23:35 [Ralph]

i/Michael: I wondered/scribenick: ralph

15:23:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

15:24:35 [Ralph]

s/ACTION: [NEW] Manu to update wiki/ACTION: [DONE] Manu to update wiki

15:24:48 [mhausenblas]

msporny: people are discussing UC

15:24:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

15:25:56 [Ralph]

s/[NEW] Manu to update wiki/[DONE] Manu to update wiki

15:25:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

15:26:06 [mhausenblas]

markbirbeck: RDFa works already fine in HTML5

15:26:29 [mhausenblas]

... we continue to support people that want to use it

15:27:05 [mhausenblas]

... and as a matter of fact people are using it

15:30:18 [mhausenblas]

msporny: there seems to be a shift from non-data mechanism awareness to data awareness in HTML5

15:31:36 [mhausenblas]

markbirbeck: it is clear that the authority is here, in the end

15:32:04 [mhausenblas]

... and we're happy to give them advise *how* to implement it in HTML5

15:33:10 [mhausenblas]

... RDFa has solved the decentralised voc management issue

15:33:31 [mhausenblas]

... and one should encourage HTML5 not to become incompatible

15:37:04 [mhausenblas]

ShaneM: RDFa helps HTML5 to support the Semantic Web

15:37:34 [mhausenblas]

q+

15:37:37 [ShaneM]

RDFa helps EVERYTHING support the semantic web

15:38:17 [mhausenblas]

Michael: there are other routes as well, just to note, for example http://ld2sd.deri.org/lod-ng-tutorial/

15:41:37 [mhausenblas]

ShaneM: next time when Ben and Steven are around we might continue this

15:41:47 [mhausenblas]

ack me

15:43:39 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity.

15:43:58 [mhausenblas]

see also http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/lod-ng-tutorial/

15:44:21 [mhausenblas]

Topic: OWL2 Manchester Syntax eschewing CURIEs - need to comment (Shane)

15:44:36 [mhausenblas]

ShaneM: OWL WG decided not to use CURIEs

15:44:48 [mhausenblas]

... rational was not clear, sad, though

15:44:53 [markbirbeck]

One more 'rdfa update': http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/04/23/more-rdfa-goodness-from-uk-government-web-sites

15:45:27 [mhausenblas]

ShaneM: seems there was a misunderstanding with CURIEs (re XMLNS)

15:45:49 [mhausenblas]

... but that will change

15:46:30 [mhausenblas]

... they invented an abbreviated URI mechanism

15:46:31 [msporny]

OWL2 Manchester Syntax document: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-manchester-syntax-20090421/

15:46:40 [mhausenblas]

... but not a CURIE, funny enough

15:48:09 [mhausenblas]

... XHTML2 WG will send in a LC comment to object re this

15:48:28 [msporny]

+1 for commenting on CURIEs

15:48:32 [mhausenblas]

+1

15:49:32 [mhausenblas]

ShaneM: will prepare a comment for XHTML2 WG, RDFa TF may join

15:49:41 [mhausenblas]

... due on 12 May

15:49:54 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0007.html "OWL-WG comment on CURIE" [Sandro Hawke 2009-04-09]

15:51:42 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html "Various issues with using CURIEs in OWL" [Bijan Parsia 2009-04-09]

15:51:51 [mhausenblas]

markbirbeck: RIF also refers to CURIEs

15:52:39 [Ralph]

(the SPARQL REC is dated January 2008)

15:52:58 [mhausenblas]

Michael: the new SPARQL Update might change this ;)

15:54:42 [mhausenblas]

Topic: Framing the @profile discussion

15:54:43 [msporny]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html

15:54:53 [mhausenblas]

-> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles

15:55:09 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:55:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

15:57:33 [msporny]

scribenick: msporny

15:57:48 [msporny]

ShaneM: I think we need to define the requirements as well.

15:58:02 [Zakim]

-mhausenblas

15:58:12 [msporny]

... we're trying to figure out a way to define CURIE rules external to the document.

15:58:23 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I agree.

15:58:36 [ShaneM]

where part of those rules include prefix mappings, and part include defining additional reserved words

15:58:43 [msporny]

markbirbeck: Essentially, we want to get the same simplicity that Microformats has.

15:59:32 [msporny]

markbirbeck: We might have a second use case - importing a collection of new tokens.

15:59:45 [msporny]

ShaneM: but you could do it with another mechanism.

16:00:10 [msporny]

ShaneM: That is a different problem than what we're currently discussing.

16:00:34 [msporny]

markbirbeck: that is true, but where this is heading - how do we set ourselves up for a future that we know is coming?

16:02:33 [msporny]

markbirbeck: we need to make sure the rules get placed into a separate graph.

16:02:56 [msporny]

ShaneM: As long as we're generating triples, we should be good.

16:03:28 [msporny]

markbirbeck: Are you saying that the external import mechanism is more important?

16:03:35 [msporny]

ShaneM: I think they're different, not tied to one another.

16:05:05 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki.

16:05:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

16:08:01 [msporny]

regrets+ Steven_Pemberton

16:10:36 [msporny]

s/ACTION: \[NEW\] Manu to update wiki page on/ACTION: \[DONE\] Manu to update wiki page on/g

16:10:50 [msporny]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:10:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:11:04 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL SPARQL PN_LOCAL BNF (allowed chars in prefixed names)

16:12:33 [msporny]

s/ACTION: [NEW] Manu to update wiki page on/ACTION: [DONE] Manu to update wiki page on/

16:13:14 [msporny]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:13:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

16:14:55 [msporny]

thanks :)

16:15:20 [msporny]

good call everyone :) - have a good weekend! Talk again in 2 weeks.

16:15:26 [Zakim]

-msporny

16:20:30 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

16:20:33 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:20:35 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:20:36 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:20:38 [Zakim]

Attendees were mhausenblas, Ralph, msporny, markbirbeck, ShaneM

16:28:23 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES] [1]

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-01-51

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES] [2]

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-02-26

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity. [3]

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T15-43-39

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [4]

16:28:23 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc#T16-05-05