IRC log of svg on 2009-04-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:30:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
06:30:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc
06:30:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:30:08 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:30:09 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now
06:30:09 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:30:09 [trackbot]
Date: 29 April 2009
06:30:33 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:30:33 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
06:30:50 [Zakim]
+??P0
06:30:51 [Zakim]
-??P0
06:30:51 [Zakim]
+??P0
06:31:00 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P is me
06:31:00 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:31:09 [Zakim]
+??P1
06:31:12 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
06:31:12 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:31:42 [Zakim]
+??P2
06:31:50 [ed]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
06:31:50 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
06:33:45 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
06:34:15 [heycam]
Scribe: Cameron
06:34:19 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
06:34:22 [heycam]
Chair: Erik
06:34:24 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0080.html
06:34:58 [heycam]
Topic: Publication status (compositing, ref)
06:35:07 [heycam]
DS: going slowly
06:35:14 [heycam]
... cameron made some progress on the build scripts
06:35:26 [heycam]
... did you apply that to template too?
06:35:29 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
06:35:30 [heycam]
CM: no i didn't yet
06:35:55 [heycam]
DS: cameron manually put build scripts in for the integration spec, the params spec and the compositing spec
06:36:13 [heycam]
... right now i'm in the of making the params spec have "params"
06:36:22 [ChrisL]
q+ to ask about specs with two documents
06:36:46 [heycam]
ED: regarding that, is it in the spec already that you could use params for references inside svg? for example for 'use' elements?
06:37:08 [heycam]
DS: we did mention that last telcon, but didn't really discuss it
06:37:43 [heycam]
... so that syntax for a url is param(http://example.org/something#frag?query)
06:38:06 [heycam]
s/#frag?query/?query#frag/
06:38:43 [heycam]
... a use element is just referenced using a uri, don't see why the query string shouldn't apply
06:38:52 [heycam]
... but it would apply at the global level
06:39:12 [heycam]
... we could say that the shadow tree of the 'use' element is a special case, and has its own params interface
06:39:18 [heycam]
CL: so each instance has its own params
06:39:56 [heycam]
CM: if you do <use xlink:href="?something#else">, then that's going to fetch another resource
06:40:29 [heycam]
DS: we could change that in the context for 'use' elements
06:40:35 [heycam]
CM: i'd be wary of doing that
06:40:46 [heycam]
ED: we could allow <param> elements as children of <use>, that could fix that
06:40:55 [heycam]
DS: so svg doesn't have a <param> element
06:41:07 [heycam]
... we can't take advantage of that, except for uris
06:41:16 [heycam]
... we could add a <param> element or equivalent
06:41:45 [heycam]
... <param> in html4 is quite elaborate
06:42:12 [heycam]
CM: it is simpler in html5, just name/value attributes and no children
06:42:32 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/objects.html#h-13.3.2
06:43:24 [heycam]
DS: if we did do something like this, i'd take the html5 <param>
06:43:47 [heycam]
CL: the whole reason for param in the first place was to extend things without changing the dtd
06:44:07 [heycam]
... i've never seen this other stuff, nor seen it used
06:44:27 [heycam]
DS: part of me says, yeah it'd be great to just use <param>
06:44:40 [heycam]
... then there might be complaints about namespace for parsing in html, etc.
06:44:52 [heycam]
ED: so in html you'd get HTML <param> elements
06:45:01 [heycam]
... part of me thinks it would be nice if it were the same
06:45:19 [heycam]
DS: same question applies to the <link> element
06:45:26 [heycam]
... it'd be useful for authors to be able to use <link> in svg
06:45:52 [heycam]
... don't know if it would be difficult to have the namespace of the Element in the dom to differ, depending on where it lives
06:46:24 [heycam]
ACTION: Doug to ask HTML WG what they think about parsing <param> and <link> in SVG
06:46:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2534 - Ask HTML WG what they think about parsing <param> and <link> in SVG [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-06].
06:46:47 [heycam]
DS: i think it would be nice for us to have a <param> thing
06:46:55 [heycam]
... a child of a <use>, or any referencing element
06:47:06 [heycam]
CM: i'd love to have <param> child of <use>
06:47:42 [shepazu]
agenda+ CSS3.1
06:47:44 [heycam]
ED: so when would the params spec be ready for publication?
06:48:09 [heycam]
DS: if i can get everything pubruled tonight, i believe we'll be publishing on thursday, for both params and compositing
06:48:19 [ChrisL]
q?
06:48:58 [ChrisL]
ack Ch
06:48:58 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you wanted to ask about specs with two documents
06:49:02 [heycam]
Topic: CSS3 Values and Units
06:53:04 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/
06:53:33 [heycam]
DS: last time we were talking about the <ref> element, cameron suggested it might not be necessary to have that element
06:53:41 [heycam]
... simpler just to do a param() value inside attributes
06:53:50 [heycam]
... this was the first thing we talked about at tpac
06:54:11 [heycam]
... then i thought what about fallback values, etc.
06:54:28 [heycam]
... and it seemed like a paint server, and for text, like <text> referenceable by a <tref>
06:54:51 [heycam]
... i'd forgotten that if you use the url() syntax, you can have a second fallback value (for <color> and <paint>)
06:54:59 [heycam]
... that's a mechanism that already exists from css, and it simplifies things
06:55:13 [heycam]
... cameron suggested param() would have two values, one the parameter, second the fallback value
06:55:20 [heycam]
... but we could use that fallback syntax similar to <paint>
06:55:41 [heycam]
... we started talking about this in the context of other things we want to do, in particular allowing relative values
06:55:46 [heycam]
... e.g. 100% minus 5px
06:55:58 [heycam]
... and we realised that there's calc() in css3-values
06:56:08 [heycam]
... not sure it's implemented, but it's pretty well defined
06:56:23 [heycam]
... i noticed you and hakon were editors for that spec
06:56:27 [heycam]
... where does calc() stand?
06:56:30 [heycam]
CL: not moving fast
06:56:38 [heycam]
... once other things are done, more effort will go in to it
06:56:46 [heycam]
... like the syntax module, it sort of rounds up bits
06:56:55 [heycam]
... any time a module adds a new value or unit, they'll have to modify that module as well
06:56:58 [heycam]
... so they're waiting, pretty much
06:57:33 [heycam]
DS: we thought that that would be the easiest way, for us, for having say <rect width="calc(100% - 10px)" ...
06:58:10 [heycam]
... we'd have to extend it, because cameron's constraint syntax also takes into account references to attribute values on other elements, and also a notation to refer to the bbox of an element
06:58:13 [heycam]
... so we'd have to take that an extend it
06:58:16 [heycam]
... what do you think about that?
06:58:37 [heycam]
CL: we already have things with fallback values, the attribute takes two things
06:58:49 [heycam]
DS: i thought that came from css. did it not?
06:58:52 [heycam]
CL: not sure
06:59:03 [heycam]
DS: in any case, we're considering adopting that syntax
06:59:19 [heycam]
... if they didn't want us to extend it, we could make our own svg-expression() syntax (or something)
06:59:59 [heycam]
CM: this was in the context of turning @width a property, too
07:00:03 [heycam]
... so we could get this calc() for free
07:00:25 [heycam]
CL: in svg, when we designed it, we decided that there's separation between content and presentation
07:00:42 [heycam]
... we decided that the geometry was the content (attributes), and the geometry could be styled in various ways (properties)
07:01:02 [heycam]
... given that, you can currently have width="" height="" *and* style="width: ...; height: ..", which mean different things
07:01:29 [heycam]
... if you change them from being an attribute to a property, then you have a conflict with the existing properties
07:01:44 [heycam]
CM: except that width/height properties don't have any meaning on svg elements currently
07:02:04 [heycam]
ED: but there are presentation attributes currently
07:02:11 [heycam]
CL: but width="" on a <rect> isn't one of those currently
07:03:10 [heycam]
DS: i know that coming to svg initially, since i knew a bit of css, i was very unclear about what the division was between attributes and properties
07:03:27 [heycam]
... not saying that there won't be problems, but perhaps the gains we would get would outweigh the confusion or other problems
07:03:34 [heycam]
... what would we lose from doing this, and what would we gain?
07:03:47 [heycam]
... gain: for people who already know css, most designers, they would be able to use svg more easily
07:03:56 [heycam]
... also gain the ability to use css classes to define those attributes values
07:03:59 [heycam]
... many times i've wanted to do that
07:04:06 [heycam]
... also we could get this calc() syntax for free
07:04:16 [heycam]
ED: what you would lose is backwards compat
07:04:49 [heycam]
CM: i don't think there's much that would actually break
07:05:05 [heycam]
DS: i understand chris the distinction you make between geometry/styling
07:05:15 [heycam]
... but other things, such as stroke-width, change the geometry of the element
07:05:22 [heycam]
CL: well...
07:05:35 [heycam]
DS: esp if we make these changes where a bbox takes into account stroke-width/filters/etc.
07:05:37 [heycam]
CL: right
07:05:48 [heycam]
DS: i'm less convinced that the separation of content and style ...
07:05:56 [heycam]
CL: yes, it can never be absolute, it's a sliding scale
07:06:04 [heycam]
... a general principle that you try to keep, rather than argue hard-and-fast
07:06:38 [heycam]
DS: i used to argue that it wasn't presentational, that the geometry was the semantics of svg, but i don't think that's affected or changed, by being able to changed with css
07:06:46 [heycam]
CL: i wasn't objecting, just saying that we'd need to be careful not to break anything
07:07:10 [heycam]
DS: not every attribute could be usefully defined as a css property, for example xlink:href
07:07:17 [heycam]
CL: this is for every attribute?
07:07:22 [heycam]
DS: no i'm saying there are some that don't make sense
07:07:26 [heycam]
... but for x/y/width/height, sure
07:07:30 [heycam]
... d on path? probably not
07:07:40 [heycam]
... positional and sizing attributes
07:07:48 [heycam]
... where indeed is the distinction, where do we draw the line?
07:08:03 [heycam]
... xlink:href definitely seems not presentational at all
07:08:13 [heycam]
CL: x/y/width/height css absolute positioning uses those
07:08:17 [heycam]
... don't necessarily mean the same thing
07:08:23 [heycam]
... vml tried to use those, and it was a mess
07:08:32 [heycam]
DS: i remember i was looking recently at vml, and thinking why didn't they adopt the syntax
07:08:42 [heycam]
CL: people told us it was horrible
07:08:49 [heycam]
... relative/absolute positioning isn't as simple as you think
07:09:11 [ChrisL]
s/isn't/in CSS2 isnt/
07:09:49 [heycam]
CL: a downside is that maybe csswg would then want to define what values we can have in our attributes
07:09:59 [heycam]
DS: possibly
07:14:54 [heycam]
ACTION: Doug to contact the CSSWG about making some more SVG attributes properties
07:14:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2535 - Contact the CSSWG about making some more SVG attributes properties [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-05-06].
07:15:12 [heycam]
Topic: Raleigh F2F
07:15:18 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/NCF2F2009
07:15:29 [heycam]
CL: i can confirm that i can attend
07:17:09 [heycam]
ED: maybe we should gather a few agenda topics
07:17:17 [heycam]
... we'll have all of the modules
07:17:20 [heycam]
... particular requests?
07:17:42 [heycam]
CL: test suites for individual modules, and how we'll work on those
07:17:54 [heycam]
... recently in inkscape, there's something that's used by filters
07:17:58 [heycam]
... one of the interpolation properties
07:18:02 [heycam]
... color-interpolation-filters
07:18:09 [heycam]
... i grepped the test suite and found we had none for it
07:18:39 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2219
07:18:49 [heycam]
ED: I plan to test all attributes/properties for filters
07:18:52 [heycam]
... for the filter module
07:19:42 [shepazu]
fill="url(#myRedGradient) red"
07:20:36 [heycam]
ED: so a reminder to fill in the registration form for the f2f
07:20:41 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/NC2009/
07:21:42 [ed]
ACTION: ed to mail public-svg-wg reminding ppl about the raleigh F2F
07:21:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2536 - Mail public-svg-wg reminding ppl about the raleigh F2F [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-05-06].
07:23:57 [heycam]
Topic: SVG script and style parsing in HTML
07:24:00 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0096.html
07:24:34 [heycam]
ED: asking about how <script> and <style> should be parsed in svg-in-text/html
07:25:21 [heycam]
CL: this about cdata-marked sections?
07:25:21 [heycam]
ED: yes
07:25:29 [heycam]
... what type of behaviour would be the most intuitive to authors?
07:25:46 [heycam]
CL: people tend to put in cdata-sections all over the place, just to be sure
07:26:07 [heycam]
... so if you have a "<" it prevents starting a tag
07:26:12 [heycam]
... handy if you've got that in a script
07:26:22 [heycam]
... in many cases it makes no difference; just treat them as tokens to be gobbled up
07:26:35 [heycam]
... but there cases where you need to treat the "<" as character data
07:26:44 [heycam]
... we could define that implicitly there is a cdata-section around script and style
07:26:52 [heycam]
... and that you can't open/close elements inside script/style
07:27:00 [heycam]
... only </script> would close <script>
07:27:12 [heycam]
DS: i think that is more-or-less how they handled it
07:28:23 [heycam]
... we have as a requirement that svg extracted from an html should work as standalone svg
07:28:47 [heycam]
CM: i think some people were ok with that having to work, and others didn't feel the need for it
07:29:23 [heycam]
DS: iirc sicking was suggesting that the cdata-section syntax would be allowed, and would be treated as in xml syntax
07:29:36 [heycam]
... it doesn't really matter what gets put into the dom
07:31:16 [heycam]
CM: i don't think it matters whether CDATASection or Text nodes get put into the dom
07:33:47 [heycam]
ED: i would prefer it for <script> inside svg-in-text/html to be parsed the same as html <script>
07:35:21 [ChrisL]
I would prefer that too
07:35:38 [heycam]
CM: as long as the CDATA-sections still work
07:35:49 [ChrisL]
would that mean that CDATA marked sections should not be used? Or should be silently ignored?
07:35:56 [heycam]
DS: there are other things not being enforced about the xml syntax, so it sort of makes that argument moot
07:36:22 [heycam]
ED: if you look at svg content today, most is made by scripts anyway
07:36:54 [heycam]
... i'm not sure how big of a concern it is
07:37:16 [ed]
s/svg content today/svg content used on the web today/
07:39:42 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to reply to the style/script thread
07:39:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2537 - Reply to the style/script thread [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-06].
07:40:47 [ChrisL]
issue-2260?
07:40:47 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2260 -- Value of SVGElement::id not defined when there is no id="" attribute present -- RAISED
07:40:47 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2260
07:40:55 [heycam]
Topic: Value of SVGElement::id not defined when there is no id="" attribute present
07:41:11 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2260
07:42:05 [ChrisL]
"Probably we should backport the behaviour from 1.2T, which says that the value is null."
07:42:14 [heycam]
CM: in html5 it's empty string if the id="" attribute is missing
07:42:20 [shepazu]
<rect id="" ... />
07:44:03 [heycam]
DS: my preference would be null if it's not there, but since html already does it empty string, rather go that way
07:44:24 [heycam]
CL: in tiny it says it should be null
07:44:34 [heycam]
DS: i don't think it would break any content if we change that
07:44:47 [heycam]
CL: if we change 1.1, i would like 1.2T to be errataed to make that empty string
07:50:20 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: If it's compatible, make 1.1 return "" for SVGElement::id when the attribute is missing, and port that to 1.2T
07:50:38 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to check that if it's compatible, make 1.1 return "" for SVGElement::id when the attribute is missing, and port that to 1.2T
07:50:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2538 - Check that if it's compatible, make 1.1 return "" for SVGElement::id when the attribute is missing, and port that to 1.2T [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-06].
07:51:01 [heycam]
Topic: SVGXXXList interfaces perhaps should not throw SVGException(SVG_WRONG_TYPE_ERR)
07:51:06 [ChrisL]
issue-2261?
07:51:07 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2261 -- SVGXXXList interfaces perhaps should not throw SVGException(SVG_WRONG_TYPE_ERR) -- RAISED
07:51:07 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2261
07:53:28 [heycam]
CM: i think it would be best to just drop the requirement about throwing that exception
07:53:45 [heycam]
ED: you tested and none of the implementations threw the SVGException
07:54:04 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: Drop those exceptions
07:54:20 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to drop the SVGExceptions for ISSUE-2261
07:54:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2539 - Drop the SVGExceptions for ISSUE-2261 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-06].
07:54:38 [heycam]
Topic: SVGStyleElement should inherit from SVGLangSpace
07:54:40 [ChrisL]
issue-2264?
07:54:40 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2264 -- SVGStyleElement should inherit from SVGLangSpace -- RAISED
07:54:40 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2264
07:56:33 [heycam]
CM: weird that SVGStyleElement doesn't inherit from SVGLangSpace
07:58:11 [heycam]
ED: if you allow those attributes you should be able to access them
07:59:01 [heycam]
CM: the only difference would be that now you could access .xmllang on a <style>
07:59:21 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: Make SVGStyleElement inherit from SVGLangSpace
07:59:36 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to make SVGStyleElement inherit from SVGLangSpace
07:59:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2540 - Make SVGStyleElement inherit from SVGLangSpace [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-05-06].
08:01:37 [shepazu]
\me http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/painting.html#SpecifyingPaint <FuncIRI> [ none | currentColor | <color>] doesn't seem to contain syntax for a fallback value...
08:02:53 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
08:02:54 [Zakim]
-ed
08:02:57 [Zakim]
-heycam
08:03:13 [heycam]
RRSAgent, bye
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-actions.rdf :
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to ask HTML WG what they think about parsing <param> and <link> in SVG [1]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T06-46-24
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to contact the CSSWG about making some more SVG attributes properties [2]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-14-54
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ed to mail public-svg-wg reminding ppl about the raleigh F2F [3]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-21-42
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to reply to the style/script thread [4]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-39-42
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to check that if it's compatible, make 1.1 return "" for SVGElement::id when the attribute is missing, and port that to 1.2T [5]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-50-38
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to drop the SVGExceptions for ISSUE-2261 [6]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-54-20
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to make SVGStyleElement inherit from SVGLangSpace [7]
08:03:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc#T07-59-36
08:03:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
08:03:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-irc
08:03:56 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:03:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-svg-minutes.html heycam
08:04:14 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
08:04:14 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:04:23 [heycam]
RRSAgent, help?
08:04:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'help'
08:04:54 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make log public
08:06:24 [heycam]
RRSAgent, bye
08:06:24 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items