IRC log of CSS on 2009-04-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:56:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-irc
15:56:54 [dsinger]
Zakim, who is here?
15:56:54 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, I don't know what conference this is
15:56:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, dsinger, sylvaing, MikeSmith, glazou_pain, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
15:56:57 [glazou_pain]
dsinger: you have to use /invite, that's what I did
15:57:09 [dsinger]
Zakim, this is style
15:57:09 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:57:28 [Zakim]
+ +95089aabb
15:57:29 [Zakim]
- +1.408.398.aaaa
15:57:36 [glazou_pain]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:36 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou_pain, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:57:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.398.aacc
15:57:47 [glazou]
Zakim, +aaaa is me
15:57:47 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
15:57:48 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has left #css
15:58:03 [glazou]
Zakim, +95089aabb is me
15:58:03 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:05 [sylvaing]
zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
15:58:05 [Zakim]
+sylvaing, alexmog; got it
15:58:10 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
15:58:32 [dsinger]
Zakim, who is here?
15:58:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, +1.408.398.aacc
15:58:33 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
15:58:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
15:59:04 [dsinger]
Zakim, i am +1.408.398.aacc
15:59:04 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
15:59:10 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
15:59:16 [dsinger]
Zakim, mute me
15:59:16 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
15:59:18 [glazou]
so we have regrets from szilles, anne, molly, dbaron and probably plinss too
15:59:26 [glazou]
hi ChrisL
15:59:31 [ChrisL]
hi daniel
15:59:53 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:00:03 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:01:22 [alexmog]
alexmog has joined #css
16:02:26 [Zakim]
+??P24
16:02:32 [fantasai]
Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
16:02:32 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:05:02 [dsinger]
Which module?
16:05:24 [ChrisL]
scribenick: chrisl
16:05:50 [ChrisL]
regrets: anne, molly, david, steve
16:06:03 [ChrisL]
topic: column-break
16:07:04 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
16:07:07 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:07:17 [Zakim]
-fantasai
16:07:37 [Zakim]
+??P24
16:07:43 [ChrisL]
am: showed three combinations in an email
16:07:44 [fantasai]
Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
16:07:44 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:07:56 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
16:07:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, dsinger (muted), Bert, ChrisL, fantasai
16:07:58 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
16:07:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmog, ChrisL, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
16:08:48 [ChrisL]
am: page-break-avoid and column-break-avoid, all combinations make sense
16:09:10 [ChrisL]
... supposr 2 col layout, something is a column and a half wide
16:09:32 [ChrisL]
... if we had two separate properties, column-break-avoid would make it start in the second column
16:09:45 [ChrisL]
... page-break-avoid would move it to the next page
16:09:54 [ChrisL]
... if they were totallyy separate
16:10:19 [ChrisL]
... however, a single break property would move things to the next column but not necessarily the next page
16:10:37 [ChrisL]
dg: so you would get a blank page
16:10:47 [ChrisL]
am: or a blank column before the next page break
16:11:06 [fantasai]
break-inside: avoid | avoid-column | avoid-page
16:11:09 [fantasai]
would give you all combinations
16:11:55 [ChrisL]
am: if we think page break is always a column break, then its hard to say thata page break is avoided but ok to start im mind column
16:12:01 [ChrisL]
s/mind/mid/
16:12:36 [ChrisL]
am: close to the opinion that its okay to have separate column and page properties
16:13:12 [ChrisL]
el: one property (as above) would do it as well as long as all combinations are listed
16:13:26 [dsinger]
Can we lay out all cases? Near end of girst col, near end of second
16:13:47 [dsinger]
Pb avoid, cb avoid
16:13:47 [anne]
anne has joined #css
16:13:59 [dsinger]
Pb+cb avoid?
16:14:14 [ChrisL]
am: advantage of separate properties is that you avoid first column breaks then page breaks
16:14:47 [ChrisL]
dg: also an issue of readability
16:15:22 [ChrisL]
el: can be readable with one property, with good choice of values. encourages people to think about pages when designing columns
16:15:32 [dsinger]
A break over page would violate cb avoid?
16:15:42 [ChrisL]
dg: these are being confused
16:16:08 [ChrisL]
bb: more interesting question, they are semi independent so all combinations need to be considered either way
16:16:21 [ChrisL]
dg: some comninations will be unused
16:16:30 [ChrisL]
bb: is there a list of all the combinations?
16:16:41 [ChrisL]
am: email did not listall of them
16:17:38 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0054.html
16:18:17 [ChrisL]
dg: avoid means 'try to avoid'
16:18:38 [ChrisL]
am: most common pattern is to avoid all breaks.
16:19:22 [ChrisL]
dg: column should take precedence over pages
16:20:56 [ChrisL]
am: some people think there are only two combinations, but differ on which two those are
16:21:03 [ChrisL]
el: happy to define all three
16:21:31 [ChrisL]
am: avoid colum, page, both makes sense to me
16:22:01 [ChrisL]
bb: agree with elika, define all three even though one is not useful
16:22:26 [ChrisL]
... avoid-both is ok, if you avoid a column break also avoids a column break
16:22:36 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
16:22:49 [ChrisL]
el: no, avoiding both means you prioritise avoiding page breaks over column breaks
16:22:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aadd
16:23:02 [Zakim]
-dsinger
16:23:21 [dsinger]
zakim, +1.408.996.aadd is [apple]
16:23:21 [Zakim]
+[apple]; got it
16:23:24 [glazou]
ok
16:23:26 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:23:26 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:24:26 [dsinger]
right, col1 of page 2 is not col2 of page 1
16:24:33 [ChrisL]
cl: a page break always produces a new colum break
16:25:01 [ChrisL]
bb: if its too long then there is no need to push it anywhere
16:25:16 [ChrisL]
am: avoid is not forbid. its 'attempt to not break"
16:26:35 [ChrisL]
cl: no way to say 'minimise the total number of breaks'
16:26:50 [ChrisL]
am: good point, can be complex to optimise for that though
16:27:23 [ChrisL]
sg: see example with avoid-column
16:27:25 [fantasai]
am: I would prefer to specify that you try to lay out, and if it doesn't fit, you push to the top of the next column
16:28:13 [ChrisL]
am: choice of keeping "most" of the article together
16:28:37 [ChrisL]
... prefer a break art the end rather than a break near the start
16:29:00 [ChrisL]
am: page break is always a column break as well. that has to be made clear
16:30:02 [ChrisL]
el: i agree with alex. want avoid to mean 'try layout then push over a break'. more complex stuff needs different keeywords. avoid behaviour is simple and useful so is what we should do now
16:30:19 [ChrisL]
bb: seems fine
16:30:39 [ChrisL]
dg: seem close to consensus
16:31:15 [ChrisL]
el: page break inside option does not work,
16:31:35 [ChrisL]
... introducing a shorthand that combines both column and page is the best option
16:31:54 [ChrisL]
am: cleaner solution to forget the old property
16:32:02 [ChrisL]
el: have to support the old property
16:32:11 [ChrisL]
am: yes but avoid in new documents
16:32:21 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:32:36 [szilles]
szilles has joined #css
16:32:51 [ChrisL]
(consensus seems to be reached)
16:33:21 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:33:49 [fantasai]
el: We're down to either alias or shorthand
16:33:59 [ChrisL]
el so we eliminate the first of melindas options but have to choose between 2 and 3
16:34:08 [ChrisL]
bb: shorthand seems like overkill
16:34:18 [ChrisL]
am: fine with either
16:34:55 [ChrisL]
dg: would like to see a summing up and final proposal
16:35:31 [ChrisL]
el: can work with hakon to propose something that covers all three combinations, need to pick 2 or 3
16:35:43 [ChrisL]
2. Add three new column-breaking properties ('column-break-before', 'column-break-after', 'column-break-inside') and define their interactions with the existing page-breaking properties; also define three shorthands ('break-before', 'break-after', 'break-inside') that would set both page- and column-breaking values. Consider deprecating both page- and column-breaking properties in the future.
16:35:54 [ChrisL]
3. Define 'break-before', 'break-after', and 'break-inside' as aliases to 'page-break-before', 'page-break-after', and 'page-break-inside'.
16:36:38 [ChrisL]
am: does the alias mean all the values apply to the old properties?
16:37:06 [ChrisL]
el: no, one is a superset of the others
16:37:24 [ChrisL]
am: preferable from an implementor standpoint to allow all the properties
16:37:37 [ChrisL]
el: 'always' property would be a problem
16:37:45 [fantasai]
s/property/value/
16:37:47 [ChrisL]
am: ok so i prefer a new set of properties
16:37:52 [ChrisL]
el: so do I
16:38:30 [ChrisL]
cl: so everyone seems to like melindas option 2 best
16:39:10 [ChrisL]
resolution: Add three new column-breaking properties per melindas email oprtion 2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
16:39:28 [fantasai]
/resolution/RESOLVED/
16:39:41 [ChrisL]
action: fantasai work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties
16:39:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-141 - Work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-05-06].
16:40:03 [ChrisL]
topic: email from svg on image fit
16:40:10 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
16:40:33 [ChrisL]
"The naming was briefly discussed in another SVG telcon[1], and the conclusion was that the SVG WG prefers the naming 'content-fit' and 'content-position' because of the reasons already mentioned above.
16:40:33 [ChrisL]
"
16:41:00 [ChrisL]
el: concern is that for css, this only appies to images while the name implies it applies more widely eg to text content
16:41:09 [ChrisL]
... but cant comu up with a better name
16:41:47 [ChrisL]
dg: don't see a clash with the content property, but could live with it
16:41:58 [ChrisL]
el: wonder if we should ask for better names
16:42:09 [ChrisL]
dg: ack the problem and ask for a better name
16:42:40 [ChrisL]
action: daniel respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name
16:42:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-142 - Respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-05-06].
16:43:07 [ChrisL]
topic: almost-ready specs
16:43:19 [ChrisL]
dg: what can we move to PR?
16:43:41 [ChrisL]
dg: chris reported progress with implementations agfainst the colour module tests
16:43:56 [ChrisL]
dg: we are seen as very slow and need to publish and move forward
16:44:04 [ChrisL]
dg: other candidates?
16:44:11 [ChrisL]
el: namespaces?
16:44:31 [ChrisL]
... a parsing bug and one test is failing
16:44:52 [ChrisL]
dg: all implementations fail?
16:45:10 [ChrisL]
dg; who is doing implementation reports?
16:45:24 [ChrisL]
el: easy to do once implementations pass, test suite is not very long
16:46:08 [ChrisL]
dg: discussed media queries with anne, he thinks some will be untestable as we do not have suitable devices and that testing on desktop is enough
16:46:26 [ChrisL]
dg: concerned that we need to test on mono and character-cell devices
16:46:50 [ChrisL]
dg: desktop ones seem to be interoperable at this time, but some features do not apply
16:47:00 [ChrisL]
el: do we have any implementations for grid?
16:47:03 [ChrisL]
dg: no
16:47:46 [ChrisL]
el: should make an imp report for dersktop and survey what other devices actually exist. at end of 6 months if there are no implementations of some features or devices we can drop them from the spec
16:48:21 [ChrisL]
bb: not honest to say we pass a test if there are no implementations
16:48:40 [ChrisL]
... some implementatiosn can emullate and always pass
16:48:52 [ChrisL]
... currently no features at risk
16:49:50 [ChrisL]
cl: prefer to do an imp report then mark features at risk and republish
16:50:05 [ChrisL]
sz: only need to claim to be a device, not to actually be that device
16:50:21 [ChrisL]
dg: yes but not implementation claims to be a grid for example
16:51:09 [ChrisL]
sz: only issue in testing is if the right selection was made, not whether it then goes on to lay outcorrectly
16:51:33 [ChrisL]
dg: will not agree to implement like that and claim to have a feature that they in fact dfon't have
16:51:42 [ChrisL]
s/dfo/do/
16:52:10 [Bert]
If we test '@media (grid)' and '@media not (grid)' and Opera does the right thing for both, sin't that enough?
16:52:17 [ChrisL]
dg: can test for not-grid
16:52:31 [ChrisL]
el: probably sufficient.
16:53:01 [ChrisL]
... will have to say its sufficient
16:54:00 [ChrisL]
dg: anne had some tests for desktop only. no tests for other devices. WG should look at tests from Anne and contribute more
16:54:19 [ChrisL]
... as soon as we have tests, we can move forward
16:54:33 [ChrisL]
cl: where are anne's tests?
16:54:58 [Bert]
http://tc.labs.opera.com/mediaqueries/
16:55:07 [ChrisL]
not listed on http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
16:55:25 [ChrisL]
bb: because not reviewed yet
16:55:46 [ChrisL]
dg: will try to review for next week
16:56:26 [ChrisL]
cl: cdf testsuite has media query tests which could be re-used
16:56:32 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #css
16:56:39 [ChrisL]
sz: snapshot?
16:56:46 [ChrisL]
el: depends on 2.1 and selectors
16:57:31 [ChrisL]
sz: snapshot is important as it actually defines the current state
16:58:14 [ChrisL]
dg: don't think the snapshot is very useful
16:58:40 [dsinger]
well, there will be browsers that are interoperable on defined modules...
16:58:47 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:52 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
16:58:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
16:58:58 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:59:00 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:59:03 [dsinger]
bye
16:59:06 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:59:10 [Zakim]
-[apple]
16:59:13 [Zakim]
-Bert
16:59:16 [Zakim]
-fantasai
16:59:22 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
16:59:49 [ChrisL]
meetiing: CSS WG telcon
16:59:55 [ChrisL]
chair: Daniel
17:00:44 [ChrisL]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
17:00:47 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
17:01:37 [ChrisL]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
17:01:49 [ChrisL]
Chair: Daniel
17:01:57 [ChrisL]
Meetiing: CSS WG telcon
17:02:00 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
17:03:15 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:03:17 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
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