Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference

28 Apr 2009


See also: IRC log






<trackbot> Date: 28 April 2009

<Bob> trackbot, start conference

<trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 28 April 2009

<Bob> Hi

<dug> Howdy

<Bob> agenda: Distributed meeting

<Bob> Time: 15:30-17:00 EDT

<Bob> Dial-in and IRC according to usual practice[5]


<Bob> Roll

<Bob> Selection of scribe, see scribe list[1]

<Bob> Approval of this Agenda

<Bob> Approval of minutes from the 2009-04-21 distributed meeting[2]

<Bob> Note that "*" preceding an issue is chair's suggestion of priority discussion

<Bob> "#" ought to be quickly closable (But the chair is often surprised)

<Bob> Items marked "X" in the chair's opinion need seasoning

New Issues

<Bob> -none-

Task Team Progress

<Bob> -Team 6413

Issues with proposals

<Bob> Common:

<Bob> *-Issue-6787 All: Fix use of ... as element extensibility http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6787 -Davis

<Bob> Enumeration:

<Bob> #-Issue-6403 Enumeration - define policy http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6403 -Davis

<Bob> Eventing:

<Bob> *-Issue-6401 WS-Eventing Notifications violates WS-I BP http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6401 -Davis -Pilz

<Bob> *-Issue-6692 WS-Eventing: Remove Mode from the specification http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6692 -Snelling

<Bob> *-Issue-6696 Eventing: When to check the EPRs http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6696 -Davis

<Bob> *-Issue-6724 Eventing: define resource representation http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6724 -Davis

<Bob> #-Issue-6788 Eventing: 'Notification' defn isn't quite right http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6788 -Davis

<Bob> MEX:

<Bob> -Issue-6500 MEX: Wrappers around GetMetadata http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6500 -Bullen (6398)

<Bob> Transfer:

<Bob> *-Issue-6712 Transfer: Create is ambiguous http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6712 -Davis

<Bob> Resource-Transfer:

<Bob> -Issue-6699 RT: ability to assign metadata during create http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6699 -Davis

<Bob> ===

Issues for general discussion

<Bob> All:

<Bob> #*-Issue-6694 All: Which specifications have implicit operations? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6694 -Davis

<Bob> Resource-Transfer:

<Bob> -Issue-6422 RT - Introduces An Ad Hoc Boxcarring Mechanism http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6422 -Bullen

<Bob> -Issue-6575 RT - Fragment Put should allow computed values http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6575 -Bullen

<Bob> -Issue-6634 RT - Document algorithm for modify http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6634 -Bullen

<Bob> -Issue-6635 RT - Outer resource with individually addressable inner resources http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6635 -Bullen

<Bob> -Issue-6636 RT - Add example of resource after the create http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6636 -Bullen

<Bob> Eventing:

<Bob> -Issue-6435 WS-Eventing needs state table to fully describe protocol http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6435 -Pilz

<Bob> -Issue-6642 WS-Eventing does not describe how to advertise policy for Subscription Managerhttp://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6642 -Pilz

<Bob> MEX:

<Bob> -Issue-6406 WS-MEX - define policy http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6406 -Davis

<Bob> -Issue-6463 MEX-Attaching Policy to WS-Mex GetMetadata http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6463 -Warr

<Bob> -Issue-6674 MEX should reference latest W3C REC versions of WS-Policy and WS-PolilcyAttachment http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6674 -Pilz

<Bob> -Issue-6679 MEX's stance towards metadata scope and semantics needs clarification http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6679 -Pilz

<Bob> -Issue-6680 MEX Section 3.2 has inconsistent properties http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6680 -Pilz

<Bob> Enumeration:

<Bob> -Issue-6436 WS-Enumeration needs state table to fully describe protocol http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6436 -Pilz

<Bob> AOB

<Bob> Adjourn

<Bob> ===

<Bob> N.B.

<Bob> Issues needing owners

<Bob> -Issue-6701 Enumeration: Create Infoset description http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6701

<Bob> -Issue-6702 MEX: Create Infoset description http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6702

<Bob> -Issue-6703 RT: Create Infoset description http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6703

<Bob> -Issue-6704 Transfer: Create Infoset description http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6704

<Bob> Needing Proposals prior to Discussion:

<Bob> Transfer:

<Bob> -Issue-6413 Transfer- Move Fragment support from RT to Transfer http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6413 -Davis -Warr (Task Team Warr Bullen)

<Bob> -Issue-6533 Transfer: Safeness of operations http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6533 -Lafon (Action-45)

<Bob> -Issue-6551 RT - Message processing time exceeded http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6551 -Bullen (Action-13)

<Bob> -Issue-6632 RT - Define fault for cases where the GetResult is too large http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6632 -Bullen (Action-32)

<Bob> -Issue-6633 RT - Namespaces in updates http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6633 -Bullen (Action-32)

<Bob> -Issue-6691 WS-T/RT - Reconcile faults http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6691 -Warr (Action-51)

<Bob> -Issue-6594 Transfer: Add extensibility points for WS-Transfer wrappers http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6594 -Davis -Bullen (Action-57)

<Bob> -Issue-6672 Transfer: Non deterministic behavior of PutResponse http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6672 -Davis -Bullen (Action-57)

<Bob> -Issue-6673 Transfer: Non deterministic behavior of Create http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6673 -Davis -Bullen (Action-57)

<Bob> Resource-Transfer:

<Bob> -Issue-6407 WS-RT - define policy http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6407 -Davis (Action-25)

<Bob> -Issue-6549 RT - Create focused on resource fragments http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6549 -Bullen

<Bob> -Issue-6550 RT - Support for XSLT and XQuery in PUT http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6550 -Bullen (Action-11)

<Bob> -Issue-6552 RT - Lifecycle metadata for Create http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6552 -Bullen (Action-12)

<Bob> -Issue-6576 RT - No Fault Defined for Mi6432smatch between ResourceTransfer header and message body http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6576 -Bullen (Action-28)

<Bob> -Issue-6578 RT - SideEffects applies to other faults http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6578 -Bullen (Action-29)

<Bob> -Issue-6579 RT - Bad fragment values with Create http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6579 -Bullen (Action-30)

<Bob> -Issue-6603 RT - Inconsistencies in CreateResponse message http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6603 -Bullen (Action-20)

<Bob> Eventing:

<Bob> -Issue-6402 WS-Eventing - define policy http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6402 -Davis (Action-24)

<Bob> -Issue-6421 Eventing-Extension point in reply message of Unsubscribe http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6421 -Bullen (Action-27)

<Bob> -Issue-6429 Eventing: Standardize Wrapped Event Sink http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6429 -Li (Action-42)

<Bob> -Issue-6700 Eventing: Complete Infoset description http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6700 -Wu

<Bob> MEX:

<Bob> -Issue-6411 WS-MEX: no way to create metadata http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6411 -Davis (Action-26)

<Bob> ===

<Bob> Blocked with dependancy on (issue):

<Bob> Eventing:

<Bob> X-Issue-6430 Eventing-Remove Attribute wse:EventSource http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6430 -Li (6401)

<Bob> X-Issue-6661 WS-Eventing Appendix I is incomplete and incorrect http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6661 -Pilz (6401)

<Bob> X-Issue-6432 WS-Eventing Push delivery mode does not work when the subscriber is not addressablehttp://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6432 -Pilz -Davis (6692)

<Bob> X-Issue-6803 RT: Is this functionality required? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6803 -Bullen (6413)

<Bob> ===

<Bob> [1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/chair-tools/scribelist.html

<Bob> [2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/9/04/2009-04-21.html

<Bob> [3] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/wiki/Main_Page

<Bob> [4] - this space for rent -

<Bob> [5] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/admin.html

<Bob> scribe: Ashok

<Bob> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0169.html

<dug> LOL


<asir> (Carriage Return - Line Feed) pair, and these messages SHALL NOT

<asir> exceed 512 characters in length

Bob: Add 2 new issues to agenda

<gpilz> hai, im am here

<gpilz> it's actually a MSFT keyboard

Approval of minutes of last mtg

<Bob> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/9/04/2009-04-21.html

Minutes from April 21 approved w/o objection

Can we open the 2 new issues and assign to the opener, Doug!

Issue 6413

Katy: We have a compromise proposal. We shd be ready next week.

Yves: Where are the emails re. 6413

Katy: We had a telcon

<dug> Yves - it was private email

Geoff: I want to ask abt mssion of the TF
... is it the mission to create a new spec called, say fragments and how this works with WS-T

Bob: I expect TF to come back with proposal acceptable to TF and hopefully by the rest of the WG

<Katy> 1+

Geoff: Shall we solve the technical issues?

Dug: We have had lots to discussion ... the TF has to come up with a compromise that is acceptable to IBMand MS and hopefully by the rest of the WG

<Bob> ack dug'

Geoff: We agreed that there wd be a spec called 'transfer' ... shouldn't that be the starting point

<Yves> I remember saying last time that the ideal place for fragments was... in addressing, close to EPR definition, so having a standalone spec is the best match

Katy: I think the key is to come up with an acceptable proposal

Bob: Let's not talk abt this further until the TF comes back to us

New Issue 6787

Dug: Strictly editorial
... they use ... for extensibility. Shd use xs:any for extensibility

<dug> and they rejoiced

Accept Dug's proposal in bugzilla to resolve 6787

Issue 6403

No changes since last week.

Geoff: We have some comments. We shd create some concrete text.

Bob: ETA?

Geoff: Try for next week

<scribe> ACTION: Geoff to create a conterproposal for 6403 by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Create a conterproposal for 6403 by next week [on Geoff Bullen - due 2009-05-05].

Issue 6401

<dug> Latest proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Mar/0127.html

Gil: Wanted to get everyone on board

Geoff: WS-PAEPER not necessary

Ashok: Why is there a <Policy> element child of EPR

<Bob> acl li

Li: Generally in agreement with Gil's approach

<asir> I did not understand Ashok's question

Asir, see section 7 of MEX... look at the EPR example ... why are there <Policy> and <Metedata> children for the EPR. No need for <Policy>

li: We have friendly amendements on Gil's propsal and wd like to separate out Policy Negotiation

<asir> awesome Gil!

Gil: Li, Wu and I shd discuss and prepare actual text

<scribe> ACTION: Li and Gil to prepare text by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - And Gil to prepare text by next week [on Li Li - due 2009-05-05].

<Zakim> asir, you wanted to answer Ashok's question

Geoff: If we remove <policy< element then we do not need WS-PAEPER?

Ashok: Correct

<asir> Ashok - it appears that is already taken down in the editors' draft, see http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/edcopies/wsmex.html#Metadata-in-Endpoint-References

<dug> phew - I was looking and I couldn't find it

<asir> Good job cleaning up Doug!

Note from Noah Mendelsohn

TAG will not raise issues on our work

Asir thanks Bob for getting this resolved early

Issue 6692

Remove 'mode' from Eventing

Wu: I would like to move on to other issues. This has been extensively discussed. Semantics of WS-Eventing may change based on other issues

Bob: Which issues block this?

Wu: 6432

Bob: I think 6432 is blocked by this one

Wu: I think 6432 goes first

Gil: I don't think 6432 blocks this. It's orthogonal.

Bob: When we spoke abt 6432 last week the issue of 'mode' kept coming up. Let's pick one to solve first.

Wu: We are thinking of proposal for 6432

<dug> brb dog is throwing up....

<scribe> ACTION: Wu to provide new words for 6432 by May 8, 2009 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Provide new words for 6432 by May 8, 2009 [on wu chou - due 2009-05-05].

DaveS: Why don't we discuss the other one first

<asir> Don't understand where we are?

DaveS: move on 6692

<dug> back

DaveS: Argues why we don't need mode

<gpilz> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/wiki/Redundant_Extension_Points

<asir> I thought Bob asked Dave to describe where we are re 6692 discussion

<dug> Mode is broken and no one has refuted my points in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0016.html

Geoff: Mode acts as selection mechanism
... but we need to move forward. I've been thinking about a proposal

<asir> a mechanism for a subscriber to specify a delivery mode to an event source!

Geoff: MS is absolutly for a selection concept. Client needs to be able to select the mode.

Wu: I propose we shd keep it in. You don't have to use it.

Bob: How do we move forward ... need some compromise

<asir> of which specification?

Gil: I posed a challenge ... I will show an alternative method for extension that will be better that 'mode'. No one took me up on that.
... We are within SOAP. No one will implement enevting outside of SOAP
... real issue is about code preservation
... Mode is like a rounding error ... many other issues involved in implemening latest WS-Eventing spec

<gpilz> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0116.html

DaveS: I want Eventing to stay clean ... if it defines a single mode then that the default mode.
... delete mode and allow attribute extensibility.

Wu: Need specific words... do we maintain fault msg?

DaveS: I don't want to wait. I would like a vote on a direction tonight.

<dug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0016.html

Dug: Please respond to this note. I argued that 'mode' has problems. We have 2 mechanisms for extensibility. It's fundamentally flawed

Wu: I responded

<gpilz> "lots of ways" leads to WS-Man 1.0 Chapter 7.

<gpilz> read it and be afraid

<TRutt> As Dave S stated, the ws eventing spec only defies a simple push delivery semantic. I see some of the proposal allowing use of a consistent use of an xs:any extension element (e.g, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0055.html ) to subscribe element def to express the same capability of the mode attribute, I do not understand how this would not enable groups such as ws man to use it to give the same capability that their mod

<TRutt> As an alternaive, ws-eventing users might also decide to use other ws-* mechanisms to give these "mode" like capabilities (e.g, ws man could decide to use ws-rm as an alternative to provide the equivalent capabilities of their "push with ack" mode.

Trutt: We can extend in many ways. Supports Dave

<dug> harry?

Geoff: Don't see this as an extension mechanism. See it as a selection mechanism

<Wu> link to my response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0033.html

Geoff: we have nothing to vote on. We have many proposals on the table

<asir> ~ 7-9 proposals out there, I think

<scribe> ACTION: Geoff to list all the different proposals for 6692 and their pros and cons. In next 2 days. Seperate proposals and argument. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - List all the different proposals for 6692 and their pros and cons. In next 2 days. Seperate proposals and argument. [on Geoff Bullen - due 2009-05-05].

issue 6788

<gpilz> geoff, you're going to do this on the Wiki, correct?

Dug: Discusses wording changes

No objection to proposal.

<Geoff> Gil - Iwas planning to just send an email with the proposals

RESOLUTION: Issue 6788 resolved with proposal in Bugzilla

<gpilz> Bob directed us to use the wiki

Issue 6694

<gpilz> and I think that idea has some merits

<gpilz> in that we can co-edit the proposals

<gpilz> Geoff: here's the Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/wiki/index.php?title=Proposals_for_6692&action=edit

Katy: We have another issue for implicit operations

<Katy> (for policy attached to implict operations)

Bob: Please make comments on the scribing.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Geoff to create a conterproposal for 6403 by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Geoff to list all the different proposals for 6692 and their pros and cons. In next 2 days. Seperate proposals and argument. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Li and Gil to prepare text by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Wu to provide new words for 6432 by May 8, 2009 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/04/28 21:02:32 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/thatere/that there/
Succeeded: s/bugzill/bugzilla/
Succeeded: s/frienfly/friendly/
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Found Scribe: Ashok
Inferring ScribeNick: Ashok

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: All Ashok Ashok_Malhotra Bob Bob_Freund Common DaveS Doug_Davis Enumeration Eventing Geoff Gil JeffM Katy MEX Mark_Little Microsoft Mischkinsky P11 P2 Resource-Transfer TRutt Time Tom_Rutt Transfer Vikas Wu Wu_Chou Yves aabb aacc asir dug fmaciel gpilz joined li trackbot ws-ra
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0169.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 28 Apr 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-ws-ra-minutes.html
People with action items: geoff gil li wu

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