13:07:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:07:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-irc
13:07:32 <alanr> zakim, this is awwsw
13:07:32 <Zakim> ok, alanr; that matches TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
13:07:33 <mhausenblas> Zakim, this will be AWWSW
13:07:33 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM already started
13:07:38 <Zakim> +??P9
13:07:39 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
13:07:40 <mhausenblas> Meeting:   W3C AWWSW TF
13:07:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.216.445.aaaa, TimBL, Alan, ??P9
13:07:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, Stuart, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:07:47 <Stuart> zakim, ?? is me
13:07:47 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
13:08:07 <Zakim> +??P10
13:08:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P10 is me
13:08:19 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
13:08:40 <mhausenblas> Agenda:    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0012.html
13:08:45 <mhausenblas> Previous:  2009-04-14 http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html
13:08:49 <Zakim> +alanr
13:08:54 <mhausenblas> Scribenick: mhausenblas
13:09:00 <alanr> zakim, alanr is jar
13:09:00 <Zakim> +jar; got it
13:09:10 <mhausenblas> Chair: Jonathan
13:09:32 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
13:09:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.216.445.aaaa, TimBL, Alan, Stuart, mhausenblas, jar
13:09:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, Stuart, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:10:04 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:10:17 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
13:10:57 <alanr> zakim, aaaa is david
13:10:57 <Zakim> +david; got it
13:11:01 <jar> jar has joined #awwsw
13:11:09 <alanr> zakim, david is dbooth
13:11:09 <Zakim> +dbooth; got it
13:11:32 <mhausenblas> Topic: JAR diagram 5
13:11:34 <mhausenblas> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswNoodlingDiagrams
13:12:35 <mhausenblas> view-source:http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#TimeSpecificResource
13:12:45 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#TimeSpecificResource
13:15:00 <jar> tabulator can't view 'ont'
13:16:04 <alanr> another browser on that ontology: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ecdd8d27
13:16:58 <mhausenblas> jar: yes, genont:Version rename to genont:TimeSpecificResource
13:18:09 <mhausenblas> jar: added some more stuff now in no 5 (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0006.html)
13:18:10 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:19:35 <jar> New in diagram #5: REST 'resource' and REST 'state'
13:21:06 <timbl> RRSAgent, pointer?
13:21:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-irc#T13-21-06
13:21:23 <mhausenblas> grounding in http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/
13:22:51 <jar> Need research: Is a "response" just the bits, or is it an event?  Important distinction.
13:23:45 <jar> We could have both classes: response as bits (can be sent multiple times), response as event (happens only once).
13:25:55 <mhausenblas> has part = = dcterms:isPartOf
13:27:27 <timbl> (Stuart, HATEOS?)
13:31:22 <Stuart> Tim: was there along side it: Hypertext As The Engine Of Application State - one of the so-called REST style architectural principles
13:32:34 <alanr> http ontology in the manchester browser: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/classes/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ececaee7
13:37:44 <jar> timbl: There's a limit to the extent to which we have to tie these things [6 spokes] together.
13:37:53 <jar> jar: 6 spokes in diagram #5
13:37:56 <alanr> is there more than a single mention of "network data object" in rfc2616?
13:38:12 <jar> using other words.. i think so
13:38:21 <alanr> what are the other words?
13:38:43 <jar> timbl: inclined not to try to handle all these different things
13:39:28 <timbl> So let's not try t pin down a network data object.  We could say it is the same as aw3:IR but to bring the whole discussion itno the HTTP community when REST has left it undefined will be  big time-spender.
13:39:34 <timbl> and not necessary.
13:40:02 <mhausenblas> +1
13:40:29 <alanr> do we agree that we will keep terms out of the ontology if we aren't going to pin them down?
13:41:11 <alanr> "tim doesn't want to get hung up on definitions" is that true?
13:41:23 <timbl> I think we can work with aw3:IR =  gen:GenericResource.
13:42:14 <alanr> "it's a fallacy to think that you can pin down in english what things mean"
13:42:19 <jar> timbl: definitions are a good idea to a certain extent.  fallacy to imagine you can pin down anything since english words themselves can be used in different ways.
13:42:35 <jar> timbl: show how it works in a protocol
13:43:50 <alanr> combination of english + mathematics = adequate definition
13:44:08 <jar> timbl: crisply define using mathematics.
13:45:10 <jar> dbooth: This view is consistent with the goal of contrasting these various models
13:46:13 <jar> timbl: aw3:IR is the same as generic resource
13:46:18 <mhausenblas> aw3:IR  owl:sameAs  gen:GenericResource.
13:46:18 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont
13:47:00 <timbl> w3:IR  owl:sameAs   <http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#InformationResource>.
13:47:44 <alanr> zakim, pointer
13:47:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pointer', alanr
13:47:49 <alanr> rrsagent, pointer
13:47:49 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-irc#T13-47-49
13:49:20 <jar> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#ContentTypeGenericResource
13:50:01 <alanr_> alanr_ has joined #awwsw
13:51:54 <alanr_> By design a URI identifies one resource. We do not limit the scope of what might be a resource. The term "resource" is used in a general sense for whatever might be identified by a URI. It is conventional on the hypertext Web to describe Web pages, images, product catalogs, etc. as “resources”. The distinguishing characteristic of these resources is that all of their essential characteristics can be conveyed in a message. We identify this set as “informati
13:52:06 <alanr_> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/
13:52:32 <alanr_> I'd be happy with that :)
13:53:08 <mhausenblas> Michael: wondering if we should step back and start from http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont
13:53:38 <alanr_> is "the bible" an information resource?
13:53:56 <mhausenblas> I'd volunteer to draw a diagram with nodes and arrows and then cross-check with jar#5
13:54:07 <alanr_> pointer to memo?
13:54:28 <alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
13:54:40 <jar> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic
13:55:08 <Zakim> -dbooth
13:55:17 <alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic sameAs http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html ?
13:55:23 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:55:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:55:37 <Zakim> +dbooth
13:56:28 <alanr_> "A URI represents a resource" -> "A URI denotes a resource"?
13:59:13 <alanr_> in the memo, there is a list of successively specific resources and dimensions of genericity. What is the dimension of genericity from each to the next? From 2->3 it is language? What is it for 1->2 and 3->4?
14:04:21 <jar> timbl: It's absolutely clear, if you ask cwm, that 2 is not a document
14:05:08 <alanr_> FYI: In IAO there is information_artifact class, and is_about relationship. information_artifacts are exactly those things that stand in an is_about relationship to some other entity. We have some subproperties of is_about well defined, but definition of is_about at the top level is not yet pinned down.
14:05:28 <alanr_> What we are missing here, IMO, is the is_about relationship
14:06:16 <jar> who has authority to decide that 2 (for example) is not a timbl:information-resource?
14:07:31 <Stuart> hmmm... integers.... as set of equivalence classes under the relation "hasTheSameQuantity"... doesn't  seem like an information resource... however, the numerals which stand for particular equivalence class might well be.
14:07:33 <jar> David: To what extent is it valid to choose whether something should be considered an IR or not?
14:07:55 <alanr_> and I would ask what is 1 about?
14:08:09 <jar> timbl: Out of order.  Let's adjourn or continue.
14:08:28 <alanr_> jar is chair
14:08:44 <Zakim> -Alan
14:08:48 <alanr_> whoops
14:08:52 <jar> michael is chair.
14:08:54 <Zakim> -TimBL
14:08:54 <Zakim> -dbooth
14:08:55 <Zakim> -Stuart
14:08:55 <alanr_> guess that settles it for me?
14:08:58 <jar> adjourned
14:08:59 <alanr_> and all.
14:08:59 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
14:09:04 <alanr_> by everybody
14:09:06 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:09:07 <Zakim> -jar
14:09:07 <alanr_> s/by/bye/
14:09:10 <mhausenblas> zakim, list attendees
14:09:12 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:09:13 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.216.445.aaaa, TimBL, Alan, Stuart, mhausenblas, jar, dbooth
14:09:15 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I don't know what conference this is
14:09:19 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:09:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/28-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:09:25 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
14:09:29 <alanr> alanr has left #awwsw
14:09:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
14:09:36 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
14:09:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items