IRC log of xhtml on 2009-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:59:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
11:59:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
11:59:19 [Steven]
zakim, room for 8 at 12z for 240m?
11:59:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Steven.
11:59:37 [Steven]
zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins
11:59:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins', Steven
11:59:48 [Steven]
zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins?
11:59:50 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)12:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:00z for 240 minutes until 1600Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
12:00:25 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631)
12:00:33 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:00:33 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:00:34 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
12:00:35 [Zakim]
12:00:42 [Roland]
trackbot, start telcon
12:00:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:00:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
12:00:46 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:00:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
12:00:47 [trackbot]
Date: 23 April 2009
12:01:12 [Steven]
s/Date:/Date - /
12:02:05 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:02:05 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:02:21 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
12:02:21 [Zakim]
I notice Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has restarted
12:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven, Roland_Merrick
12:02:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot
12:02:24 [Zakim]
12:02:25 [Zakim]
12:02:46 [Roland]
Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
12:02:46 [Zakim]
+Roland; got it
12:02:52 [Zakim]
12:04:36 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
12:05:24 [Steven]
zakim, code?
12:05:24 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
12:05:34 [Zakim]
12:06:19 [Zakim]
12:06:29 [ShaneM]
zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
12:06:29 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
12:06:34 [Steven]
can anyone hear me speaking?
12:06:43 [oedipus]
no, steven
12:06:50 [Zakim]
12:06:56 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:06:56 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:06:58 [Zakim]
12:07:17 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
12:07:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM
12:07:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot
12:10:53 [Steven]
12:11:12 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
12:11:17 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
12:11:22 [oedipus]
regrets+ Rich_S
12:11:30 [oedipus]
Topic: Agenda Review
12:11:40 [oedipus]
RM: each item will have 30 minutes devoted to it
12:11:55 [oedipus]
SP: Yves will be joining us on ITS integration at 1400h UTC
12:12:03 [Steven]
12:12:04 [oedipus]
RM: what do we need to cover with Yves
12:12:29 [oedipus]
12:12:56 [oedipus]
SP: 3 options: inline similar to inline styling; put in head as meta info, or use XLink
12:13:14 [oedipus]
MG: should as to use LINK element not XLink
12:13:46 [oedipus]
MG: XLink one of many ways, so not a hard and fast requirement; do we want to do everything? has its own ruby module, translation stuff
12:14:26 [oedipus]
MG: elements in legacy documents without changing them through external XSLT; use XPath to indicate were should be applied; referencing implementations - required to prove works
12:14:33 [oedipus]
12:14:39 [oedipus]
SP: is ITS out of CR?
12:14:50 [oedipus]
SM: yes, been a rec for quite some time
12:15:04 [oedipus]
SP: if referring to existing technologies, is ok
12:15:09 [oedipus]
RM: what is minimum we can do?
12:15:18 [oedipus]
SP: LINK element to ITS rules
12:15:33 [oedipus]
RM: still doesn't limit exposure - still have to understand everything in ITS
12:15:43 [oedipus]
RM: should we be incorporating required ITS features
12:15:56 [oedipus]
RM: what is appropriate to us
12:16:03 [oedipus]
12:16:08 [oedipus]
12:16:13 [oedipus]
MG: ok to just pick a sub-set
12:16:15 [oedipus]
RM: yes
12:16:38 [oedipus]
MG: ITS namespace has own ruby module - no link or dependency on Ruby spec itself
12:16:50 [oedipus]
MG: should we consider switching to ITS 1.0?
12:16:57 [oedipus]
SP: asked about this - also have own SPAN element
12:17:00 [oedipus]
MG: correct
12:17:27 [oedipus]
SP: requires a SPAN-like and Ruby-like element -- provided in cases where don't have them, but if available can use
12:17:39 [oedipus]
SP: should check that interpretation with Yves
12:17:47 [oedipus]
zakim, pointer
12:17:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pointer', oedipus
12:18:02 [oedipus]
SM: their Ruby brought into line with Ruby Rec at some point
12:18:24 [oedipus]
MG: couldn't find any differences - inline ruby element names and behaviors seem same as in Ruby spec
12:18:34 [oedipus]
12:18:50 [oedipus]
SP: fundamental question: to what extent can we sub-set this given our current functionality
12:19:03 [Steven]
12:19:19 [oedipus]
SM: are we going to incorporate ITS as part of their namespace or ours?
12:19:28 [oedipus]
SM: my vote is: do it in their namespace
12:19:31 [oedipus]
SP: agree
12:19:33 [oedipus]
GJR: agree
12:19:52 [oedipus]
SP: if just point to set of rules rather than inline, only case that arises is its:translate attribute
12:20:06 [oedipus]
SP: propose bringing its:translate into XHTML2
12:20:13 [oedipus]
SM: as an attribute in their namespace
12:20:15 [oedipus]
SP: yes
12:20:34 [oedipus]
SP: what we are missing is "translate"
12:21:16 [oedipus]
SM: inline ITS is a sticking point -
12:21:37 [oedipus]
12:21:59 [oedipus]
SM: not bring in all elements, but bring in things like "translation" referenced to their namespace
12:22:55 [oedipus]
SP: questions: 1) does spec allow us to use our native SPAN and RUBY and dir; 2) are you ok with only external ITS; can we use LINK? what would be the Role value
12:23:11 [oedipus]
SP: how do they do that in XLink
12:23:27 [ShaneM]
<link rel="itsRules" ... ?
12:23:32 [oedipus]
s/can we use LINK/can we use "ref" with LINK to accomplish this?
12:23:52 [ShaneM]
oooh. use CURIEs <link rel="its:rules"
12:23:54 [oedipus]
SP: could suggest its:rules "rel" value
12:24:07 [oedipus]
SM: would have to declare its prefix vocab mapping
12:24:16 [oedipus]
SM: also ITS namespace has to be the same
12:24:38 [oedipus]
SP: already an ITS namespace with value rules in it
12:24:43 [oedipus]
SP: its:rules element
12:24:49 [oedipus]
SM: correct
12:25:02 [Steven]
12:25:05 [oedipus]
SM: could show them how to annotate as RDF
12:25:13 [ShaneM]
There's no there-there right now
12:25:25 [oedipus]
SP: no, this is more a namespace question, although there is a GRDDL version i thought i came across
12:25:40 [oedipus]
SM: like idea of using CURIEs - use their vocabularies and have it just work
12:25:51 [Steven]
12:26:24 [Steven]
<link rel=īts:rules"href="...."/>
12:26:34 [oedipus]
SP: what is missing is version info
12:26:35 [Steven]
s/href/ href/
12:26:57 [oedipus]
RM: LINK in HEAD and nowhere else
12:27:06 [oedipus]
RM: allow its:translate on one of our elements
12:27:44 [oedipus]
SM: vocabulary concatonated to name
12:28:14 [oedipus]
MG: can take Qname, right?
12:28:22 [oedipus]
SP: syntaxically similar to Qname
12:28:34 [Steven]
a qname is a subset of curie
12:28:36 [oedipus]
MG: MarkB - advised use of Qnames along with role values - is that right?
12:28:49 [oedipus]
SM: interesting question
12:29:22 [oedipus]
SM: can put anything want in quotation marks, but conforming RDFa parser not going to allow triples
12:29:38 [oedipus]
SM: Qname doesn't map to IRI like CURIE
12:29:41 [oedipus]
SP: ah
12:30:22 [oedipus]
SP: P3P has reserved value for "rel" to do roughly the same thing
12:30:41 [Steven]
12:30:46 [Steven]
(not version info)
12:30:52 [Steven]
12:31:09 [oedipus]
12:31:14 [oedipus]
12:31:25 [oedipus]
12:31:37 [oedipus]
12:32:05 [oedipus]
s/what would be the Role value/what would be the rel value
12:32:14 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:32:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:32:48 [oedipus]
SM: from implementation report and conformance language, we conform by virtue of having a native SPAN attribute
12:33:19 [oedipus]
SM: one must be available: SPAN, RUBY; if Ruby used, declare inline, if SPAN used, use as inline element
12:33:27 [oedipus]
SM: did provide us with module as per our request
12:33:49 [oedipus]
SM: also support ITS in M12n?
12:34:19 [markus]
Birbeck discussing QNames in @role:
12:34:38 [Roland]
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "">
12:34:38 [Roland]
<html xmlns=""
12:34:38 [Roland]
12:34:38 [Roland]
12:34:38 [Roland]
12:34:40 [Roland]
12:34:42 [Roland]
<link href="../its.." rel="its:rules" type="??" />
12:34:44 [Roland]
12:34:46 [Roland]
12:34:48 [Roland]
12:34:50 [Roland]
12:34:53 [Roland]
<p its:translate="no">Grrrr</p>
12:34:54 [Roland]
12:34:56 [Roland]
12:34:58 [Roland]
12:35:08 [oedipus]
proposed questions now at
12:36:36 [oedipus]
GJR: apply to XHTML2 only or to 1.2?
12:36:46 [oedipus]
RM: first agree on framework, then retrofit
12:38:00 [oedipus]
shane, Yves will join at
12:38:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:38:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:38:20 [oedipus]
RM: other i18n issues to discuss?
12:38:51 [oedipus]
[none logged]
12:38:59 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Agenda Shaping
12:39:09 [oedipus]
RM: order of agenda items: Access first?
12:39:34 [Steven]
12:39:34 [oedipus]
SM: clear to move Access to second LC - put out new draft this morning and updated disposition of comments
12:39:51 [oedipus]
12:39:59 [Steven]
12:40:06 [oedipus]
SM: happy to let draft go to LC
12:40:28 [Zakim]
12:40:38 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:40:38 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:40:40 [Zakim]
12:40:43 [oedipus]
RM: just needs a bit of editorial tidying, but ready to go, so should start process
12:40:45 [oedipus]
SM: yes
12:40:56 [Zakim]
12:41:23 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:41:23 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:41:25 [Zakim]
12:41:34 [oedipus]
SM: chicken and egg problem: Access refers to CURIEs CR draft; changed CURIEs so doesn't have prefixing mechanism, putting onus on host language; Access isn't a host language, so we should be ok
12:42:04 [oedipus]
RM: assuming HCG has no problem with this tomorrow, can immediately ask for XHTML Access to go back to Last Call
12:42:09 [Zakim]
12:42:19 [oedipus]
SM: should be more specific about whom we need to comment on Access
12:42:30 [oedipus]
RM: have to address concerns brought up by PF and i18n
12:42:39 [oedipus]
SP: some SVG stuff as well?
12:42:55 [oedipus]
SM: no last call comment from SVG in disposition/issue tracker
12:43:21 [oedipus]
GJR: PF has a long standing clarification request about abiility to mix targetid and targetrole in the @order attribute
12:43:34 [oedipus]
GJR: PF wants to know if is permissible
12:44:13 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:44:13 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:44:14 [Zakim]
12:44:44 [oedipus]
PFWG ACTION-211 - query XHTML2 and SVG on wheter mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order is ok or problemmatic
12:45:00 [oedipus]
12:45:05 [ShaneM]
zakim, disconnect Steven
12:45:05 [Zakim]
Steven is being disconnected
12:45:07 [Zakim]
12:45:12 [ShaneM]
we got your voice mail
12:45:46 [oedipus]
SM: in ACCESS element description must have targetrole OR targetid specified - if not present, mapping ignored
12:45:49 [Steven]
sorry, problems with phoen here. Trying another
12:45:55 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:45:55 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:45:56 [Zakim]
12:46:13 [oedipus]
SM: not permitted in Access element - can have one or the other, can't have both
12:46:49 [oedipus]
GJR: will communicate that to PF
12:46:54 [Zakim]
12:46:58 [Steven]
oh no
12:47:15 [oedipus]
RM: user agent must only use targetid attribute values
12:47:22 [Roland]
"If a targetid and a targetrole are both specified for an element, a user agent MUST only use the values from the the targetid attribute."
12:48:31 [oedipus]
RM: have resolution from 2009-04-22 telecon to cycle Access Module back through Last Call
12:48:46 [Zakim]
12:49:08 [oedipus]
12:49:17 [oedipus]
12:49:22 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:49:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:49:39 [oedipus]
12:49:45 [oedipus]
12:51:45 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:51:45 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:51:46 [Zakim]
12:51:59 [Zakim]
12:53:33 [Steven]
Gregory: When I go to banking services, the forms are half declarative, and half procedural
12:53:47 [Steven]
... I need a role value to express this
12:54:06 [Steven]
... some people are worried this would hold up ARIA
12:54:33 [Steven]
Shane: Add it to the role module!
12:54:33 [oedipus]
SM: nothing to do with ARIA - just define "form" in Role Module and be done with it
12:54:36 [oedipus]
GJR: fine with me
12:54:55 [oedipus]
RM: return to ARIA later;
12:55:13 [oedipus]
SM: updated CURIE spec - removed xmlns stuff and produced new editor's draft
12:55:17 [oedipus]
12:55:56 [oedipus]
SM: changes CURIE into a datatype with a defines mapping with value space
12:56:12 [oedipus]
SM: does it poorly, but does the job - can't find a better way anyway
12:56:29 [oedipus]
SM: may get push-back from people who feel this change is too large
12:56:42 [oedipus]
SM: already have 1 comment to that effect
12:58:07 [oedipus]
MG: wasn't there an email that said up to host language to perform binding, so how can one have local CURIE processor
12:58:09 [oedipus]
SM: can't
12:58:36 [markus]
12:58:36 [oedipus]
SM: always permitted alternate prefix mapping mechanisms
12:58:52 [oedipus]
SP: introduced to open hole to allow it to be inserted into HTML5?
12:58:59 [oedipus]
SM: what?
12:59:03 [oedipus]
SP: leaving it to host language
12:59:21 [Roland]
12:59:35 [oedipus]
SM: no, another objection; didn't want to use xmlns as prefix mechanism
12:59:49 [oedipus]
MG: concerned about Role Module forcing HTML vocab to be default one
13:00:02 [oedipus]
MG: ability to redefine vocab is separate but legitimate issue
13:00:25 [oedipus]
SM: objection from a reviewer that didn't want to be forced to use xmlns - we thought that reasonable
13:00:33 [oedipus]
SP: strong argument against having to go to LC again
13:00:42 [markus]
13:00:50 [Roland]
13:00:59 [oedipus]
SP: if reviewer still objects - can state can have 1 or the other, but not both - going back to LC won't solve that problem
13:01:06 [oedipus]
SM: generic processor never practical
13:01:18 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:01:28 [Roland]
Includes: " I don't see how you can get out of CR to PR, looking at your implementation report. At this stage, I'm now asking Sean, my AC rep, to oppose such a transition."
13:01:52 [oedipus]
SM: should finish collecting tests into a "test suite"
13:02:06 [oedipus]
SM: do we need a "test suite"?
13:02:24 [oedipus]
SM: for CURIEs? think we have one anyway -- just point to RDFa and be done with it
13:02:31 [oedipus]
SM: could identify sub-set of relevant tests
13:02:50 [oedipus]
RM: wasn't there a concern about a feature that RDFa doesn't use
13:03:12 [oedipus]
SM: datatype, which isn't a feature; a lot of CURIE features not used by RDFa -- allow alternate prefix mapping mechanisms, etc.
13:03:20 [oedipus]
SM: no default prefix
13:03:37 [oedipus]
SM: if CURIE starts with a colon, don't define meaning for that in RDFa
13:03:48 [oedipus]
SM: or a CURIE without a colon - in car, can't check
13:04:02 [oedipus]
SM: MarkB had deemed those "reserved values"
13:04:25 [oedipus]
MG: so what if CURIE does start with colon?
13:04:51 [oedipus]
SP: prefix without colon - section 7 in RDFa "Module" defines how work with CURIEs with rules
13:06:10 [oedipus]
SP: can leave out prefix according to CURIE document
13:06:34 [oedipus]
SM: should say "for each of those, host languages may define a rule or mechanism to establish default prefix"
13:07:02 [oedipus]
SP: "when prefix omitted from CURIE" doesn't cover the colon question
13:07:36 [oedipus]
SP: if just put colon in front, use default prefix
13:07:38 [oedipus]
SM: right
13:07:40 [oedipus]
SP: got it
13:08:22 [oedipus]
SM: agree that there are aspects of CURIE that RDFa does not use; isn't requirement that test suites be comprhensive, but all features of spec have to be used in 2 independent implementations
13:08:34 [oedipus]
SM: we need to decide if satisfied criteria
13:08:47 [oedipus]
SM: but that doesn't necessarily require a test suite
13:09:34 [oedipus]
SP: have usage in RDFa, OWL
13:09:55 [oedipus]
RM: aren't talking about implementations of those languages are we?
13:10:11 [oedipus]
SP: can point to implementations of RDFa as implementation of CURIEs
13:10:13 [oedipus]
SM: agree
13:10:17 [oedipus]
SP: have a dozen of those
13:10:50 [oedipus]
RM: markup languages include: OWL
13:10:58 [oedipus]
SM: OWL WG said won't use CURIEs
13:11:12 [oedipus]
RM: including OWL is a bit of a stretch then
13:11:15 [oedipus]
SM: yes
13:11:44 [oedipus]
SM: rolled their own rather than reuse CURIEs
13:12:09 [Roland]
13:12:12 [oedipus]
RM: Last Call WD - 20 April 2009 - should send feedback
13:12:34 [oedipus]
SM: part of SemWeb activity, which is origins of CURIEs so makes sense for us to eat our own dog food
13:13:08 [oedipus]
RM: strange that didn't request feedback specifically from us since working on similar mechanism
13:13:26 [oedipus]
RM: can we get comment from RDFa task force?
13:14:38 [oedipus]
ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2
13:14:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30].
13:14:40 [oedipus]
13:14:45 [oedipus]
13:14:54 [oedipus]
13:15:00 [oedipus]
13:15:03 [oedipus]
13:15:07 [oedipus]
13:15:11 [oedipus]
13:15:28 [oedipus]
RM: doesn't seem like a coordinated approach within SemWeb
13:15:42 [oedipus]
SM: CURIEs useful in SPRQL
13:16:00 [oedipus]
SM: way to view CURIEs is as datatype with some requirements on host language
13:16:12 [oedipus]
SP: just like a URI
13:17:07 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
13:17:09 [oedipus]
13:17:22 [oedipus]
13:17:44 [alessio]
zakim, code?
13:17:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio
13:18:15 [Zakim]
13:18:24 [oedipus]
RM: comment date is 12 May 2009 - need to be expeditious
13:18:33 [Roland]
13:18:34 [Zakim]
13:18:43 [Zakim]
13:18:47 [Roland]
13:18:48 [alessio]
zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
13:18:48 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:18:57 [Roland]
Comment By 12 May 2009
13:18:58 [oedipus]
SP: if don't use CURIEs what do they use?
13:19:05 [oedipus]
RM: their own solution
13:19:17 [oedipus]
SM: which is VERY similar to CURIE, but with further restrictions
13:19:36 [oedipus]
SM: called "abreviated IRIs"
13:20:06 [oedipus]
from W3 front page blurb: "OWL 2 (a compatible extension of OWL 1) consists of 13 documents (7 technical, 4 instructional, and 2 group Notes)"
13:21:56 [oedipus]
OWL comment action item:
13:22:33 [oedipus]
SM: is DAISY using CURIEs?
13:22:38 [oedipus]
MG: yes
13:23:20 [oedipus]
GJR: on list for ARIA 2.0 - support for CURIEs to point to external resources
13:23:39 [Zakim]
13:23:41 [Zakim]
13:23:59 [oedipus]
SP: can mention RIF - RIF core and RIF collection/dialect
13:24:05 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:24:16 [oedipus]
s/SP: can mention RIF/RM: can mention RIF/
13:24:16 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here
13:24:16 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
13:24:20 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here?
13:24:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM.a
13:24:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot
13:24:25 [oedipus]
RM: other implementations?
13:24:31 [ShaneM]
zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM
13:24:31 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
13:24:38 [oedipus]
GJR: ARIA use pending status of CURIE document
13:24:54 [oedipus]
SM: Markus, have a pointer?
13:25:02 [oedipus]
MG: not public info yet
13:25:16 [oedipus]
SM: need something to point to - could be email from you to
13:25:42 [oedipus]
RM: easiest to send email to public-xhtml2 with pointers to code in that mail
13:26:24 [oedipus]
ACTION - Markus: send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2
13:26:24 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - -
13:26:34 [oedipus]
ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2
13:26:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [on Markus Gylling - due 2009-04-30].
13:28:40 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: request CURIE to be transitioned from CR to PR
13:28:49 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:28:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:28:56 [oedipus]
trackbot, pointer
13:28:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to for help
13:29:12 [Zakim]
13:29:19 [oedipus]
13:29:24 [oedipus]
rrsagent, stop log
13:29:24 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:29:27 [oedipus]
rrsagent, stop
13:37:34 [oedipus]
ARIA 2.0 CURIE Support Issue Tracker entry:
13:37:39 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:37:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:37:42 [oedipus]
rrsagent, stop
13:42:39 [Zakim]
13:42:43 [ShaneM]
it occured to me that xhtml 1.2, xhtml 2, and xhtml modularization 2 also all use CURIEs
13:42:59 [ShaneM]
oh - and XHTML Role and XHTML Access and RDFa of course...
13:45:48 [YvesS]
YvesS has joined #xhtml
13:46:06 [oedipus]
13:46:38 [oedipus]
13:47:39 [oedipus]
SM: does aria's roles allow CURIEs?
13:48:42 [oedipus]
"The applicable ARIA role is the concrete ARIA role whose name is matched by the first token in the sequence of tokens in the role attribute value which matches, on case-sensitive comparison, the name of any concrete ARIA role."
13:48:42 [oedipus]
"A concrete ARIA role is any of the role types described above except abstract roles (roles for which isAbstract is true) and the roles imported from the Role Module, that is those that are introduced in sections 4.4.6 and 4.4.7"
13:49:17 [oedipus]
13:49:39 [alessio]
13:49:55 [oedipus]
An implementing host language will provide an attribute with the following characteristics:
13:49:55 [oedipus]
* The attribute name MUST be role;
13:49:55 [oedipus]
* The attribute value MUST allow a space-separated sequence of whitespace-free substrings;
13:49:55 [oedipus]
* The appearance of the name literal of any concrete ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax; and
13:49:55 [oedipus]
* If the name literal of a concrete ARIA role appears as one of the substrings in the space-separated list in the role attribute, the role MUST be processed in accordance with this specification.
13:51:11 [oedipus]
SM: essentially CURIE-type mechanism by another name
13:51:51 [oedipus]
ARIA 1.0 "Following the Namespaces Recommendation [XML-NAMES], the namespace name for these attributes has no value. The names of these attributes do not have a prefix offset by a colon; in the terms of namespaces they are unprefixed attribute names. The ECMAScript binding of the DOM interface getAttributeNS for example, treats an empty string ("") as representing this condition, so that both getAttribute("aria-busy") and getAttributeNS("", "aria-busy") acces
13:52:17 [oedipus]
RM: request transition for CURIE, make LC comments to OWL2 to try and get consistency in SemWeb area
13:52:31 [Steven]
Yves, we are ready when you are
13:52:44 [Steven]
13:52:47 [YvesS]
ok, I'm getting there.
13:53:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.945.aaaa
13:53:54 [oedipus]
13:54:12 [oedipus]
zakim, +1.303.945.aaaa is Yves_S
13:54:12 [Zakim]
+Yves_S; got it
13:54:41 [oedipus]
SM: should announce in RDFa implementation that DAISY uses RDFa
13:54:58 [oedipus]
MG: will go public with first draft before summer - nothing to look at at this point
13:55:11 [Steven]
s/RDFa implementation/
13:55:17 [oedipus]
MG: except for source code repository
13:55:34 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:55:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:56:02 [oedipus]
TOPIC: ITS Integration Discussion with YvesS
13:56:15 [oedipus]
13:56:50 [oedipus]
background: the WG has identified at least 3 questions for Yves:
13:56:51 [oedipus]
13:56:51 [oedipus]
o does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module?
13:56:51 [oedipus]
o is external ITS support alone sufficient?
13:56:51 [oedipus]
o can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD?
13:57:13 [oedipus]
1. does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module?
13:57:13 [oedipus]
2. is external ITS support alone sufficient?
13:57:13 [oedipus]
3. can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD?
13:57:42 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Reuse of XHTML's Native SPAN element or ruby module?
13:58:01 [oedipus]
SM: want to integrate ITS into XHTML2 - wanted to get info straight from source's mouth
13:58:23 [oedipus]
SM: can we use native XHTML span to satisfy ITS?
13:58:26 [oedipus]
Yves: correct
13:58:31 [oedipus]
SM: what about Ruby module
13:58:40 [oedipus]
Yves: if aligned with ITS
13:58:47 [oedipus]
SM: ITS copied ours, so should be ok
13:58:54 [oedipus]
Subtopic: LINK versus XLink
13:59:15 [oedipus]
SM: can we use LINK with "rel" to link to ITS rules document
13:59:47 [oedipus]
Yves: good question; as long as documented properly, shouldn't be an issue; don't see any conflict; processor just needs to know what to do with LINK
14:00:13 [oedipus]
SM: have other groups identified value that want to use for "rel" attribute
14:00:28 [oedipus]
s/SM: want to integrate/SP: want to integrate
14:00:40 [oedipus]
s/SM: can we use native/SP: can we use native
14:00:54 [oedipus]
s/SM: ITS copied ours/SP: ITS copied ours
14:01:08 [oedipus]
s/SM: can we use LINK/SP: can we use LINK/
14:01:29 [oedipus]
SM: want to have "rel" attribute that states HREF pointing at is an ITS rule
14:01:49 [oedipus]
Yves: XHTML2 WG should come up with value for "rel" attribute - we will follow your lead
14:02:00 [oedipus]
SP: preference is to use a CURIE
14:02:03 [ShaneM]
XHTML2 WG Gets to blaze the trail again!
14:02:11 [oedipus]
14:02:28 [oedipus]
SP: since rulename is its:rules therefore rel="its:rules"
14:02:42 [oedipus]
SP: any objection to using CURIE?
14:02:48 [oedipus]
Yves: don't forsee problem
14:03:05 [oedipus]
SM: is HTML5 group going to accomodate ITS?
14:03:09 [oedipus]
Yves: yes
14:03:11 [oedipus]
SP: how?
14:03:16 [oedipus]
Yves: explicit links
14:03:23 [ShaneM]
HTML5 would not like use to use a colon
14:03:33 [oedipus]
SP: if have to interoperate with their value, shouldn't be a CURIE, but keyword value
14:03:54 [ShaneM]
14:03:59 [oedipus]
SM: if that is part of target audience, i agree -- if try to use CURIE, have vocabulary prefix issue to deal with, so prefer rel="its:rules"
14:04:01 [ShaneM]
rel="itsRules" maybe
14:04:29 [oedipus]
SM: without colon - then HTML5 can't complain about colon
14:04:41 [oedipus]
SM: want maximum number of people to take advantage of and use ITS
14:04:47 [oedipus]
SM: need consistent behavior model
14:04:58 [oedipus]
Subtopic: ITS Rule Versioning
14:05:10 [oedipus]
SP: do rules documents state version?
14:05:33 [oedipus]
Yves: yes - describe way external tool can handle ITS document
14:05:45 [oedipus]
SP: not worried that LINK wouldn't say which version pointing to?
14:06:01 [oedipus]
Yves: no - customized tools is end goal
14:06:13 [oedipus]
SP: don't want to have to change documents because of new version of ITS rules
14:06:30 [oedipus]
SP: if allow LINK rel="itsRules" is that sufficient?
14:06:36 [oedipus]
Yves: yes, provided can do the lookup
14:06:53 [oedipus]
Subtopic: its:translate
14:07:19 [oedipus]
SP: want to use its:translate, but already have own "dir" - can just use "translate" attribute
14:07:36 [oedipus]
Yves: that is fine; map existing data categories/atttributes using ITS rules
14:07:53 [oedipus]
SP: in its rules, can say attribute "dir" is same as its "dir"
14:07:59 [ShaneM]
how about <span translate="whatever" dir="ltr">lala</span> ? instead of its:translate?
14:08:12 [oedipus]
Yves: yes
14:08:36 [oedipus]
SP: no problem importing its:translate - do you have preference if reuse yours or include a native XHTML translate attribute
14:08:51 [oedipus]
Yves: use ITS
14:09:03 [oedipus]
SP: not allergic to foreign namespaces
14:09:51 [oedipus]
Yves: can map it
14:10:04 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:10:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:10:17 [oedipus]
SP: thank you VERY much Yves for your attendance
14:10:37 [oedipus]
Yves: HTML5 comment on question of value - suggest use "itsRules"
14:10:52 [Zakim]
14:10:53 [oedipus]
Yves: will keep XHTML2 WG updated on negotiations with HTML WG
14:11:29 [oedipus]
SM: create ITS module for XHTML2 spec that indicates bringing in itsRules attribute add to Common or Text module?
14:11:43 [oedipus]
MG: inheritable, so that is reason to put in common
14:11:59 [oedipus]
RM: text module
14:12:34 [oedipus]
MG: 2 questions: ITS module and should it be in Common or Text Attribute collection
14:12:47 [oedipus]
MG: where to put it is the ultimate question
14:12:57 [oedipus]
SM: if add to existing module, i'd add to i18n module
14:13:08 [oedipus]
[general agreement on wisdom of this]
14:13:20 [oedipus]
SM: adds internationalization collection to the common collection
14:13:33 [Steven]
14:13:35 [Zakim]
14:13:36 [oedipus]
SP: translate attribute marked as an issue in that very section
14:13:50 [oedipus]
SM: for XHTML2, use i18n module
14:13:51 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:13:51 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:13:53 [Zakim]
14:14:10 [oedipus]
SM: architectual question: should i18n module always include ITS in M12n 2.0
14:14:28 [oedipus]
SM: bring in rel="itsRule" and itsTranslate?
14:14:35 [oedipus]
SM: i think the answer is yes
14:14:43 [oedipus]
RM: don't see reason to say "no" at the moment
14:14:47 [Steven]
14:15:01 [oedipus]
14:15:05 [oedipus]
14:15:27 [oedipus]
SP: why not put i18n and bi-directional text together in same module?
14:15:29 [oedipus]
SM: and ruby?
14:15:43 [oedipus]
SP: no, ruby has own attribute collection - referenced by indirection
14:16:13 [oedipus]
SM: not a bad suggestion to collapse into i18n module, but don't want to consume f2f time on that editorial issue
14:16:37 [Steven]
s/SM: and ruby/RM: and ruby?/
14:17:26 [Zakim]
14:17:54 [oedipus]
RM: ITS use in LINK element with appropriate "rel" value
14:18:17 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:18:17 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:18:19 [Zakim]
14:18:32 [oedipus]
RM: investigate collation of ITS, ruby and bi-directionality into an expanded i18n module
14:19:43 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Issues 7659 (AnneVK comments)
14:19:45 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:19:59 [oedipus]
SM: issued at when stopped last time - hypertext attribute selection
14:20:13 [oedipus]
Subtopic: hypertext attribute selection
14:20:24 [oedipus]
SM: Anne asks why are needed at all
14:20:59 [oedipus]
s/hypertext attribute selection/hypertext attribute module
14:21:12 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:21:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:22:05 [oedipus]
SP: hreflang doesn't solve problem - if multiple language versions of link and send dutch link to you who use russian, should get russian version
14:22:28 [oedipus]
SP: hreflang not a new facilllity; always in HTML4
14:22:37 [oedipus]
SP: problem - doesn't do anything - no better than comment
14:22:57 [oedipus]
SP: if claim it is dutch than it better be "nl" - if don't want to do, then don't
14:23:26 [oedipus]
GJR: hreflang is useful for accessibility because it prepares the Assitive techonology to make the appropriate natural language switch
14:24:06 [oedipus]
GJR: hreflang identifies natural language for natural language processing
14:24:38 [oedipus]
SP: 2 problems: 1. not garunteed to be interoperable (will break if move URLs if web server doesn't use same method of specifying URLs
14:25:06 [oedipus]
SP: 2. no way to garuntee that is possible - know at least 1 server where one can have several resources linked via URL but not to sub-resources
14:25:14 [oedipus]
RM: content creator's choice whether or not to do that
14:25:29 [oedipus]
RM: could make them available as choice or through content-negotiation
14:25:48 [oedipus]
SP: hreflang doesn't break content negotiation
14:26:12 [oedipus]
SP: hreflang offers extra functionality - if don't want to use, don't have to, but is useful functionality for some use cases
14:27:02 [oedipus]
SP: example: if have on homepage links to different versions of homepage, this allows me to check if they are really there -- allows one to check links to ensure that what is supposed to be the dutch version is the dutch version
14:27:46 [oedipus]
GJR: also good trigger to switch natural langauge for TTS, charsets for screen magnification, especially in absence of natural language declaration in document being referred to
14:28:03 [oedipus]
RM: document benefits and extra functionality
14:28:08 [Steven]
14:28:42 [oedipus]
"This attribute specifies the primary language of the resource designated by href. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of language ranges with optional accept parameters, as defined in section 14.4 of [RFC2616] as the field value of the Accept-Language request header."
14:28:42 [oedipus]
"In its simplest case, this is just a language code, such as "nl", but it may also contain variant specifications such as "en-gb"."
14:29:18 [oedipus]
RM: doesn't address why would use in concert with content negotiation
14:29:25 [oedipus]
SP: current text isn't sufficient?
14:29:42 [oedipus]
RM: don't think we cover value statement very well as currently written
14:29:59 [oedipus]
example from document:
14:30:06 [oedipus]
<p href=""
14:30:06 [oedipus]
14:30:06 [oedipus]
The press release in French
14:30:06 [oedipus]
14:30:24 [oedipus]
RM: no complimentary documents that goes with XHTML2 that addresses how to use these things together
14:30:34 [oedipus]
RM: will lose this if don't put into document
14:31:05 [oedipus]
GJR: i have an action item to create a wiki page for Role BP; i could do the same for hreflang and content negotiation
14:31:21 [oedipus]
RM: need "motivating examples"
14:31:56 [oedipus]
SP: could put same example with <a hreflang="nl">Press Release in Dutch</a>
14:32:22 [oedipus]
GJR: wouldn't you want <a hreflang="nl" xml:lang="nl">Dutch for "this page in dutch</a>
14:32:45 [oedipus]
RM: content negotiation methods - match against what UAs do today
14:33:02 [oedipus]
SP: if want to say this is version in french, so available to someone who wants french
14:33:30 [oedipus]
RM: if all want to do is get what matches browser, don't have to worry; if want to give user option to choose language, then use hreflang
14:34:23 [oedipus]
ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples
14:34:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-30].
14:35:53 [oedipus]
GJR: make sure to address xml:lang in conjunction with hreflang and content negotiation
14:36:11 [oedipus]
RM: done on hreflang for now?
14:36:25 [oedipus]
SP: brief comment at end - target is CSS issue with pointer to old spec
14:36:30 [oedipus]
SM: answer is "no it is not"
14:36:32 [oedipus]
SP: right
14:36:53 [oedipus]
SM: bi-directional text verbiage has typo i need to correct
14:37:01 [oedipus]
14:37:17 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Edit
14:37:33 [oedipus]
SM: Quote element doesn't have default presentation, whereas "edit" has one
14:38:14 [oedipus]
RM: comment from DocBook about not having default presentation in quote
14:38:29 [oedipus]
SP: reping CSS WG - ascertain if changed mind
14:38:53 [oedipus]
RM: want to have consistency for content creators across languages
14:39:07 [oedipus]
SP: can undo decision - is in current form due to comment and request
14:39:19 [oedipus]
SM: have to revisit the issue anyway
14:39:28 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Embedding Attribute Module and @type
14:39:37 [oedipus]
SM: question is why need @type at all
14:40:00 [oedipus]
SM: purpose of @type is so i can indicate to UA what types of resources are available that i want to use for my document
14:40:19 [oedipus]
SM: UA should then determine intersection of what author wants and internal capabilities and serve the "best" one
14:40:38 [oedipus]
SM: author in control of document and resources therein
14:41:03 [oedipus]
RM: what about things embedded from elsewhere? don't necesarily have control over embedded content
14:41:10 [oedipus]
SP: always been in HTML
14:41:16 [oedipus]
RM: don't need old baggage
14:41:30 [oedipus]
SM: some old baggage is useful and we have tightened usage
14:42:20 [oedipus]
SM: @type allows me to serve image in SVG, PNG, JPG, and GIF - as author, want cascade: SVG, PNG, JPG or GIF depending on UA capabilities
14:42:39 [oedipus]
SP: if don't want to use it, don't use it, full stop
14:42:57 [oedipus]
SP: allows for more author control - increases author's power, doesn't decrease it
14:43:10 [oedipus]
SM: what should http-accept header report
14:43:24 [alessio]
provides a more stable object fallback
14:44:12 [oedipus]
RM: don't have image module
14:44:14 [ShaneM]
14:44:25 [oedipus]
RM: first example uses NL - ok
14:44:42 [oedipus]
SP: why arent' attributes applied directly to a list
14:44:58 [oedipus]
SM: why do you need detail is comment
14:45:15 [oedipus]
SM: if change to UL should solve problem
14:45:25 [oedipus]
SP: <ul role="navigation"> right?
14:45:27 [oedipus]
SM: sure
14:45:43 [oedipus]
SM: don't call "LABEL" but "CAPTION"
14:45:52 [oedipus]
MG: no LABEL element anymore
14:46:05 [oedipus]
GJR: suggested use of LEGEND instead of CAPTION
14:46:18 [oedipus]
SM: TITLE or CAPTION - different semantics
14:47:13 [oedipus]
GJR: use old fieldset, legend. label model, freed from forms - irrelevant due to XForms module, so reuse LEGEND as generic labeller
14:47:21 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Why Need OBJECT?
14:47:29 [oedipus]
SM: something has to take PARAM
14:47:51 [oedipus]
GJR: trying to get HTML5 to consider PARAM for EACH media-specific element
14:48:12 [oedipus]
Subtopic: XHTML Scripting Module
14:48:41 [oedipus]
SM: complaint that it was being dropped; we have decided to chop XML Events into event, handler and script
14:49:26 [oedipus]
Subtopic: XForms
14:49:43 [oedipus]
SM: don't understand "useable by everyone" forms instead
14:49:51 [oedipus]
SP: send pointer to XForms in HTML tutorial
14:51:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Issue-7656, Comments from Neil Katin
14:52:03 [oedipus]
RM: some of these complaints/comments have been obsoleted by events
14:52:10 [oedipus]
SM: most of them
14:52:18 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:52:42 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Example for hreftype
14:52:51 [oedipus]
SM: will check to ensure that hreftype example is correct
14:53:05 [oedipus]
Subtopic: Definition of Access
14:53:13 [oedipus]
SM: editorial complaint
14:53:25 [oedipus]
RM: shouldn't be problem - ripped out Access and made it its own module
14:53:28 [oedipus]
SM: right
14:54:15 [oedipus]
Subtopic: bidi text
14:54:20 [oedipus]
comment: "(bidi text) there are two section definitions that are malformed: Inheritance of text direction information and 15.1.4. 15.1.2. The effect of style sheets on bidirectionality"
14:54:40 [oedipus]
SP: in HTML4 could only say deleted somewhere and inserted somewhere else -
14:54:47 [oedipus]
14:55:07 [oedipus]
GJR: proposed a for/id relationship for INS and DEL in Editing Module
14:55:57 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:56:46 [oedipus]
14:56:59 [oedipus]
14:57:44 [oedipus]
GJR: lingering question: "is <DEL id="blah1">dig</DEL> <INS for="blah1">dog</INS> best practice, or is d<DEL id="blah1">i</DEL><INS for="blah1">o</INS>g permissible, and is it any of our business? "
14:58:25 [Zakim]
14:58:44 [Steven]
Roland: I find it hard to get excited about this
14:59:41 [Steven]
Roland: Further down it shows a reply, and mentions the edit="moved"
15:00:40 [Steven]
Roland: Are there any more of these issues?
15:00:44 [Steven]
Shane: Lots
15:01:08 [Steven]
... such as 82 issues in "incoming"
15:01:19 [oedipus]
i/Roland: I find/ScribeNick+ Steven
15:01:51 [Zakim]
15:01:58 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:02:06 [oedipus]
SP: meant to be new working group when renamed XHTML2
15:02:15 [oedipus]
SP: HTML5 WG didn't take over our XML issues
15:02:27 [oedipus]
SP: we (XHTML2) retained issues from old working group
15:02:41 [oedipus]
SP: done our best to work with them, go to LC, and let them comment on that
15:02:54 [oedipus]
RM: should delete or mark incomplete in issues list
15:03:05 [oedipus]
RM: can close one-by-one, but need to do SOMETHING with them
15:03:06 [Steven]
15:03:11 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:03:24 [oedipus]
RM: new ones since group re-chartered?
15:03:37 [oedipus]
SP: would be in incoming bucket
15:03:44 [oedipus]
SM: only 1 issue since rechartered
15:03:56 [oedipus]
SM: about editorial error in CURIE spec which i think i fixed
15:04:08 [oedipus]
RM: comments on XML Events get to issue tracker?
15:04:48 [oedipus]
old issue tracking system on XML Events:;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:05:26 [oedipus]
shane's tracker "XMLEvents has 6 messages"
15:07:03 [Roland]
15:07:26 [oedipus]
Errata for XML Events: An Events Syntax for XML
15:07:50 [oedipus]
comment: In "B. Schema Implementation" the third sentence reads: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Proposed Recommendation." This should read: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Recommendation."
15:08:20 [oedipus]
SM: don't remember seeing it in issue tracker, but can put it there
15:08:46 [oedipus]
SM: didn't imagine us doing an update to XML Events 1
15:08:58 [oedipus]
RM: should we ever need to, this is something we should address at same time
15:09:21 [oedipus]
RM: should keep track in relation to XML Events 1 - if do need to PER XML Events 1, then would address all errata on that document
15:09:31 [oedipus]
SM: i'll get it into the tracker
15:10:02 [oedipus]
Subtopic: How Do We Make the Issue Tracking System Useful?
15:10:15 [oedipus]
SM: use issue tracker effectively for new work (last call comments, etc.)
15:10:33 [oedipus]
SM: in the past, have tracked comments from last call or PR review - works to extent we use it
15:10:47 [oedipus]
SM: do have a lot of old baggage and unprocessed stuff in old tracking system
15:11:01 [oedipus]
SM: can take all of unprocessed stuff and mark obsolete
15:11:24 [oedipus]
RM: proposed resolution: All items in issue tracking system dated prior to new charter be closed as no longer relevant
15:11:39 [oedipus]
SM: will that fly?
15:12:17 [oedipus]
SP: can argue it reasonably; old group's charter ended and new group chartered (XHTML2) - did best to process as many comments from previous group as could and are now staring tracking afresh
15:12:32 [oedipus]
SP: TBL did say this is going to be a new group with a new charter and new chair
15:12:50 [oedipus]
SM: going to create a bucket called "old" -- everything that isn't in a certain state will be included
15:13:01 [oedipus]
SM: if closed, leave where is - already dealt with and useful for pointers
15:13:17 [oedipus]
SM: if implemented, done it, but haven't reissued public draft since effecting changes
15:13:30 [oedipus]
SM: if marked "suspended" we were holding for later processing
15:13:56 [oedipus]
SM: anything not in "suspended", "implemented" or "closed" will be obsoleted
15:14:07 [oedipus]
RM: charter start date?
15:14:20 [oedipus]
RM: end date 31 December 2009
15:15:02 [oedipus]
SP: date of charter 2007-02-02
15:15:18 [oedipus]
SM: anything before 2007?
15:15:20 [oedipus]
SP: yes
15:15:22 [oedipus]
RM: yes
15:15:24 [oedipus]
GJR: yes
15:15:26 [oedipus]
AC: yes
15:16:29 [oedipus]
SM: should we inform users that comment tabled, please re-review and re-submit if necessary
15:16:45 [oedipus]
RM: let's ascertain how many there are to deal with
15:16:50 [oedipus]
SP: [counting]
15:18:05 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLVED: All items in issue tracker dated prior to issuance of new XHTML2 Charter (2007-02) will be closed as no longer relevant
15:19:00 [oedipus]
SM: more general question: 259 messages that are "open", but 135 are in the "trash" - spam not yet marked as closed
15:22:22 [oedipus]
SM: rather than doing in "real time" will go through and remove the extraneous "crust"
15:22:35 [oedipus]
SP: if only 80, can do quick pass over them
15:22:45 [oedipus]
SP: can we chop it down even further?
15:22:58 [oedipus]
RM: shane, take a pass, post a list, and will revisit if we need resolution
15:23:37 [oedipus]
ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition
15:23:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30].
15:23:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:25:55 [oedipus]
TOPIC: D - a single element to indicate dialogue
15:25:56 [Zakim]
15:26:13 [ShaneM]
15:26:40 [Zakim]
15:26:57 [oedipus]
SP: elements for structural portions of document; semantics indicated by attributes (why added role)
15:27:07 [oedipus]
SP: in case of D, looks like adding semantics
15:27:15 [oedipus]
SP: can't we use a role="dialogue"
15:27:25 [oedipus]
GJR: would role="dialogue" be applied to Q
15:27:45 [Tina]
If we are not indicating semantics with elements, then why are we indicating semantics with /some/ elements?
15:28:15 [oedipus]
GJR: Q inappropriate because when including dialogue, one is not quoting, but speaking in the character's voice
15:28:34 [oedipus]
15:28:58 [oedipus]
"3. D provides a clear and necessary semantic marker in a generic/foundational declarative markup language -- it provides a declarative means of identifying text as dialogue, rather than leaving indications of dialogue embedded in prose to be indicated with "naked" quotation marks, character entity values or unicode values such as " or u0022 or u0027, and so on) nor can one rely on extremely spotty implementation of the :before and :after pseudo-elements to g
15:29:26 [oedipus]
RM: dialogue in my understanding involves multiple parties
15:29:35 [oedipus]
GJR: monolog would be subsumed into dialogue
15:32:05 [oedipus]
15:32:09 [alessio]
...what about d role="monolog"?
15:32:31 [oedipus]
RM: could we make this a property of P or SPAN?
15:32:39 [oedipus]
MG: yep
15:33:09 [oedipus]
what about this use case:
15:33:10 [oedipus]
15:33:10 [oedipus]
15:33:10 [oedipus]
15:33:10 [oedipus]
<dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd>
15:33:10 [oedipus]
15:33:12 [oedipus]
15:33:43 [Tina]
Can't that be solved by pulling in another namespace specifically created for, say, plays etc?
15:33:50 [oedipus]
"since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: conversation, dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content, transcript "
15:34:12 [oedipus]
SM: not convinced D/dialogue is a semantic structure
15:34:55 [oedipus]
RM: INS/DEL kept only in text; use other attributes (including role) to annotate
15:35:04 [oedipus]
RM: content model on wiki page is horrendous
15:35:29 [oedipus]
"Note: If it is decided that two distinct elements are needed -- one for inline use and one for block use -- then the simplest solution would be to use D inline (since it would be used quite often in a document instance) and DB or DBLOCK for block use. Since dialogue is dialogue, however, it would be preferable to have a single element to declaratively mark dialogue, and leave the rest to native structural elements and stylesheets. Therefore, throughout this
15:35:34 [oedipus]
RM: what is rationale?
15:35:46 [oedipus]
"Rationale: XHTML2 currently lacks an element that can clearly mark text as dialogue. The use of Q is not an option for this use case, as the characters aren't being quoted, they are engaging in a conversation. Since a dialogue element would be used quite often, the shortest element name is the best element name for the semantic concept of "dialogue". "
15:38:17 [oedipus]
15:38:33 [oedipus]
RM: represents fact that individual is uttering statement
15:38:57 [oedipus]
GJR: provides a means to represent text that is expressed by an individual or group of individuals
15:39:25 [oedipus]
RM: perhaps should make distinction --
15:40:10 [oedipus]
15:40:10 [oedipus]
15:40:10 [oedipus]
15:40:10 [oedipus]
<dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd>
15:40:10 [oedipus]
15:40:10 [oedipus]
15:40:45 [oedipus]
RM: don't think D would be right thing there - DL for scene
15:40:51 [oedipus]
RM: what if in argument or debate?
15:41:10 [oedipus]
RM: generic D would be much more about annotating a section
15:41:16 [oedipus]
RM: D doesn't carry semantics for me there
15:41:33 [oedipus]
"when used as a block level element, there needs to be a child element of D which can declaratively mark part of the text as not being dialog, such as stage directions, cues, description of non-verbal action, and so on; in the following example, ND ("not dialogue"), has been used and is being proposed to fill this need"
15:41:48 [oedipus]
<d role="transcript>
15:41:48 [oedipus]
15:41:48 [oedipus]
15:41:48 [oedipus]
15:41:48 [oedipus]
<dd>Did you have any conversation with Brothman to the effect that
15:41:49 [oedipus]
this information was going to the Russians?</dd>
15:41:51 [oedipus]
15:41:53 [oedipus]
15:41:55 [oedipus]
15:41:57 [oedipus]
<dd>I remember once he asked me if the Amtorg people l1ked what
15:42:00 [oedipus]
they were getting.</dd>
15:42:01 [oedipus]
15:42:03 [oedipus]
15:42:06 [oedipus]
15:42:07 [oedipus]
<dd>Did you ever identify yourself to him as one who had worked for
15:42:10 [oedipus]
the Amtorg?</dd>
15:42:12 [oedipus]
15:42:13 [oedipus]
15:42:15 [oedipus]
15:42:17 [oedipus]
<dd>No, I never had. I was introduced to him as his Communist Party
15:42:19 [oedipus]
superior, and he was to give me dues and information.</dd>
15:42:22 [oedipus]
15:42:23 [oedipus]
15:42:25 [oedipus]
15:42:27 [oedipus]
<dd>Did he give you his Communist Party dues?</dd>
15:42:29 [oedipus]
15:42:31 [oedipus]
15:42:33 [oedipus]
15:42:35 [oedipus]
<dd>Yes, he did.</dd>
15:42:37 [oedipus]
15:42:39 [oedipus]
15:42:42 [oedipus]
15:42:43 [oedipus]
<dd>On how many occasions, would you say?</dd>
15:42:45 [oedipus]
15:42:47 [oedipus]
15:42:49 [oedipus]
15:42:51 [oedipus]
<dd>That would be hard to say. It wasn't every week, but it might be
15:42:53 [oedipus]
roughly every month.</dd>
15:42:56 [oedipus]
15:42:57 [oedipus]
15:42:59 [oedipus]
15:43:01 [oedipus]
DL Should Give Structure to, Not Generically Indicate, Dialogue
15:43:03 [oedipus]
RM: investigate what people are actually saying -- all about speech
15:44:13 [oedipus]
<h>Kane Found in Love Den with <em class="em-quote">Dancer</em></h>
15:44:49 [oedipus]
em-quote would be a :before and :after psuedo-element to indicate quotation nesting
15:45:15 [Roland]
<u role="to-be-said">Hi</u> <q role="actually-said">Hello</q>
15:46:08 [markus]
Id be in favor of supporting inline D with the rationale to avoid misuse of Q, and wait for (along Tinas suggestion above) a future dedicated module under XHTMLMOD2 for "real" block level markup of plays etc.
15:46:29 [markus]
... Steven: you cant attac rdf/a to unicode quotes
15:46:37 [markus]
15:47:13 [oedipus]
MG: idea with D is can ascribe from whom dialogue originates
15:47:43 [oedipus]
RM: Q says "this is what was actually said" - what does D do?
15:48:20 [Steven]
The rule was for deciding how to introduce new elements
15:48:32 [Steven]
we left old elements mostly untouched
15:48:47 [Steven]
for 'mindshare' reasons
15:48:56 [oedipus]
GJR: D proposal has role/type proposed for D
15:49:23 [oedipus]
SP: understand use case, but feel that if our current markup extensibility methods are not able to handle this case, then somehow we failed
15:49:57 [oedipus]
SP: next time someone comes along with a semantic element idea, what do we do? extensibility has to be considered before new elements are added
15:50:18 [oedipus]
SP: how to fix this? semantic mechanism so that anyone can add semantic info to document
15:50:25 [oedipus]
SP: if not sufficient, what is wrong with model?
15:50:40 [oedipus]
RM: agree with Steven -- concentrate on problem statement
15:51:04 [Zakim]
15:51:07 [oedipus]
RM: if agree on problem statement, can explore what we can do within XHTML2's over-arching philosophy -- if run into problems, then can consider new element
15:51:21 [oedipus]
GJR: semantically there IS a difference betwen a quote and dialogue
15:52:28 [Zakim]
15:52:41 [oedipus]
RM: role="maleProtoganist"
15:53:54 [oedipus]
RM: take GJR's use cases and investigate if can solve them with existing technologies native to XHTML
15:54:35 [oedipus]
RM: content model is scary
15:54:59 [oedipus]
GJR: next steps?
15:55:10 [oedipus]
RM: rationale is most important bit;
15:55:44 [oedipus]
"5. since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: * conversation; * dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content); * transcript "
15:55:57 [oedipus]
RM: concentrate on problems then propose solutions
15:56:10 [oedipus]
15:56:15 [oedipus]
RM: any urgent business
15:56:30 [oedipus]
SP: need to ensure roadmap reflects reality
15:56:41 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Next Steps on XHTML2
15:56:49 [oedipus]
RM: goal is to get new draft out in May 2009
15:57:01 [oedipus]
RM: can we create draft for publication in may?
15:57:18 [oedipus]
MG: how does this correlate with PLH's induced discussions with SamRuby?
15:57:42 [oedipus]
SP: have to carry on according to charter whilst addressed in w3c channels - wouldn't be addressed until end of year
15:58:08 [oedipus]
RM: editors comfortable with may 2009 for publishable draft?
15:58:12 [oedipus]
RM: what help needed?
15:58:16 [oedipus]
SM: ready to publish now
15:58:31 [oedipus]
SP: WG task -- assign and read sections
15:58:38 [oedipus]
MG: what about XForms?
15:58:51 [oedipus]
SP: just reference XForms - import XForms 1.1 with the following elements
15:59:00 [oedipus]
SP: ok if in working draft as is
15:59:37 [oedipus]
SP: XForms WG discussed attribute names yesterday - going to deprecate old attribute names and introduce new - old content will still work, but XHTML2 can go ahead and just use new attributes
15:59:41 [oedipus]
RM: implications?
15:59:56 [oedipus]
SP: clashes with XForms attributes -- target, for example
16:00:05 [oedipus]
RM: is there a definitive list?
16:00:18 [oedipus]
SP: thought solved for XML Events 2, need to check XForms
16:00:34 [oedipus]
SP: will post pointer to XForms minutes
16:00:39 [oedipus]
SP: very accomodating
16:00:58 [oedipus]
RM: schedule another vFtF soon
16:01:14 [Zakim]
16:01:16 [Zakim]
16:01:21 [Zakim]
16:01:24 [Zakim]
16:01:25 [Roland]
Roland has left #xhtml
16:01:25 [Zakim]
16:01:27 [oedipus]
RM: will discuss logistics of next virtual face2face at next week's regular XHTML2 WG telecon
16:01:33 [Zakim]
16:01:34 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended
16:01:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Yves_S
16:01:37 [ShaneM]
there are now 45 issues that are !Implemented
16:01:55 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:03:48 [oedipus]
chair: Roland_Merrick
16:03:53 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:06:00 [oedipus]
meeting: XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face
16:06:04 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:07:04 [oedipus]
meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face
16:07:06 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:08:13 [oedipus]
meeting- XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
16:08:15 [oedipus]
meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face
16:08:17 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:27:02 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [1]
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [2]
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [3]
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [4]
16:27:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in