11:59:05 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
11:59:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc
11:59:19 zakim, room for 8 at 12z for 240m?
11:59:19 I don't understand your question, Steven.
11:59:37 zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins
11:59:37 I don't understand 'room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins', Steven
11:59:48 zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins?
11:59:50 ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)12:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:00z for 240 minutes until 1600Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
12:00:25 Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631)
12:00:33 zakim, dial steven-617
12:00:33 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:00:34 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started
12:00:35 +Steven
12:00:42 trackbot, start telcon
12:00:44 RRSAgent, make logs public
12:00:46 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
12:00:46 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:00:47 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
12:00:47 Date: 23 April 2009
12:01:12 s/Date:/Date - /
12:02:05 zakim, dial steven-617
12:02:05 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:02:21 zakim, who is here?
12:02:21 I notice Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has restarted
12:02:22 On the phone I see Steven, Roland_Merrick
12:02:23 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot
12:02:24 -Steven
12:02:25 +Steven
12:02:46 Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
12:02:46 +Roland; got it
12:02:52 +Markus
12:04:36 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
12:05:24 zakim, code?
12:05:24 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
12:05:34 +Gregory_Rosmaita
12:06:19 +McCarron
12:06:29 zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
12:06:29 +ShaneM; got it
12:06:34 can anyone hear me speaking?
12:06:43 no, steven
12:06:50 -Steven
12:06:56 zakim, dial steven-617
12:06:56 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:06:58 +Steven
12:07:17 zakim, who is here?
12:07:17 On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM
12:07:18 On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot
12:10:53 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#2009-04-23
12:11:12 Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
12:11:17 ScribeNick: oedipus
12:11:22 regrets+ Rich_S
12:11:30 Topic: Agenda Review
12:11:40 RM: each item will have 30 minutes devoted to it
12:11:55 SP: Yves will be joining us on ITS integration at 1400h UTC
12:12:03 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/meeting/2009-03-26#how_to_incorporate_ITS
12:12:04 RM: what do we need to cover with Yves
12:12:29 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration
12:12:56 SP: 3 options: inline similar to inline styling; put in head as meta info, or use XLink
12:13:14 MG: should as to use LINK element not XLink
12:13:46 MG: XLink one of many ways, so not a hard and fast requirement; do we want to do everything? has its own ruby module, translation stuff
12:14:26 MG: elements in legacy documents without changing them through external XSLT; use XPath to indicate were should be applied; referencing implementations - required to prove works
12:14:33 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport
12:14:39 SP: is ITS out of CR?
12:14:50 SM: yes, been a rec for quite some time
12:15:04 SP: if referring to existing technologies, is ok
12:15:09 RM: what is minimum we can do?
12:15:18 SP: LINK element to ITS rules
12:15:33 RM: still doesn't limit exposure - still have to understand everything in ITS
12:15:43 RM: should we be incorporating required ITS features
12:15:56 RM: what is appropriate to us
12:16:03 http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/
12:16:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/its/
12:16:13 MG: ok to just pick a sub-set
12:16:15 RM: yes
12:16:38 MG: ITS namespace has own ruby module - no link or dependency on Ruby spec itself
12:16:50 MG: should we consider switching to ITS 1.0?
12:16:57 SP: asked about this - also have own SPAN element
12:17:00 MG: correct
12:17:27 SP: requires a SPAN-like and Ruby-like element -- provided in cases where don't have them, but if available can use
12:17:39 SP: should check that interpretation with Yves
12:17:47 zakim, pointer
12:17:47 I don't understand 'pointer', oedipus
12:18:02 SM: their Ruby brought into line with Ruby Rec at some point
12:18:24 MG: couldn't find any differences - inline ruby element names and behaviors seem same as in Ruby spec
12:18:34 http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod
12:18:50 SP: fundamental question: to what extent can we sub-set this given our current functionality
12:19:03 s/SP/SM/
12:19:19 SM: are we going to incorporate ITS as part of their namespace or ours?
12:19:28 SM: my vote is: do it in their namespace
12:19:31 SP: agree
12:19:33 GJR: agree
12:19:52 SP: if just point to set of rules rather than inline, only case that arises is its:translate attribute
12:20:06 SP: propose bringing its:translate into XHTML2
12:20:13 SM: as an attribute in their namespace
12:20:15 SP: yes
12:20:34 SP: what we are missing is "translate"
12:21:16 SM: inline ITS is a sticking point -
12:21:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration
12:21:59 SM: not bring in all elements, but bring in things like "translation" referenced to their namespace
12:22:55 SP: questions: 1) does spec allow us to use our native SPAN and RUBY and dir; 2) are you ok with only external ITS; can we use LINK? what would be the Role value
12:23:11 SP: how do they do that in XLink
12:23:27 s/can we use LINK/can we use "ref" with LINK to accomplish this?
12:23:52 oooh. use CURIEs SP: could suggest its:rules "rel" value
12:24:07 SM: would have to declare its prefix vocab mapping
12:24:16 SM: also ITS namespace has to be the same
12:24:38 SP: already an ITS namespace with value rules in it
12:24:43 SP: its:rules element
12:24:49 SM: correct
12:25:02 http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/
12:25:05 SM: could show them how to annotate as RDF
12:25:13 There's no there-there right now
12:25:25 SP: no, this is more a namespace question, although there is a GRDDL version i thought i came across
12:25:40 SM: like idea of using CURIEs - use their vocabularies and have it just work
12:25:51
12:26:24
12:26:34 SP: what is missing is version info
12:26:35 s/href/ href/
12:26:57 RM: LINK in HEAD and nowhere else
12:27:06 RM: allow its:translate on one of our elements
12:27:44 SM: vocabulary concatonated to name
12:28:14 MG: can take Qname, right?
12:28:22 SP: syntaxically similar to Qname
12:28:34 a qname is a subset of curie
12:28:36 MG: MarkB - advised use of Qnames along with role values - is that right?
12:28:49 SM: interesting question
12:29:22 SM: can put anything want in quotation marks, but conforming RDFa parser not going to allow triples
12:29:38 SM: Qname doesn't map to IRI like CURIE
12:29:41 SP: ah
12:30:22 SP: P3P has reserved value for "rel" to do roughly the same thing
12:30:41 rel="p3pv1"
12:30:46 (not version info)
12:30:52 s/not/note/
12:31:09 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport
12:31:14 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport
12:31:25 http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/
12:31:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration
12:32:05 s/what would be the Role value/what would be the rel value
12:32:14 rrsagent, make minutes
12:32:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
12:32:48 SM: from implementation report and conformance language, we conform by virtue of having a native SPAN attribute
12:33:19 SM: one must be available: SPAN, RUBY; if Ruby used, declare inline, if SPAN used, use as inline element
12:33:27 SM: did provide us with module as per our request
12:33:49 SM: also support ITS in M12n?
12:34:19 Birbeck discussing QNames in @role: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/05/something-which-was-part-of-early.html
12:34:38
12:34:38 xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its"
12:34:38 xml:lang="en">
12:34:38
12:34:40 its
12:34:42
12:34:44
12:34:46
12:34:48
12:34:50
12:34:53
Grrrr
12:34:54
12:34:56
12:34:58
12:35:08 proposed questions now at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration
12:36:36 GJR: apply to XHTML2 only or to 1.2?
12:36:46 RM: first agree on framework, then retrofit
12:38:00 shane, Yves will join at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=04&day=23&hour=14&min=00&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283
12:38:09 rrsagent, make minutes
12:38:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
12:38:20 RM: other i18n issues to discuss?
12:38:51 [none logged]
12:38:59 TOPIC: Agenda Shaping
12:39:09 RM: order of agenda items: Access first?
12:39:34 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/
12:39:34 SM: clear to move Access to second LC - put out new draft this morning and updated disposition of comments
12:39:51 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/
12:39:59 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-access-lc-doc-20090415.html
12:40:06 SM: happy to let draft go to LC
12:40:28 -Steven
12:40:38 zakim, dial steven-617
12:40:38 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:40:40 +Steven
12:40:43 RM: just needs a bit of editorial tidying, but ready to go, so should start process
12:40:45 SM: yes
12:40:56 -Steven
12:41:23 zakim, dial steven-617
12:41:23 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:41:25 +Steven
12:41:34 SM: chicken and egg problem: Access refers to CURIEs CR draft; changed CURIEs so doesn't have prefixing mechanism, putting onus on host language; Access isn't a host language, so we should be ok
12:42:04 RM: assuming HCG has no problem with this tomorrow, can immediately ask for XHTML Access to go back to Last Call
12:42:09 -Steven
12:42:19 SM: should be more specific about whom we need to comment on Access
12:42:30 RM: have to address concerns brought up by PF and i18n
12:42:39 SP: some SVG stuff as well?
12:42:55 SM: no last call comment from SVG in disposition/issue tracker
12:43:21 GJR: PF has a long standing clarification request about abiility to mix targetid and targetrole in the @order attribute
12:43:34 GJR: PF wants to know if is permissible
12:44:13 zakim, dial steven-617
12:44:13 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:44:14 +Steven
12:44:44 PFWG ACTION-211 - query XHTML2 and SVG on wheter mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order is ok or problemmatic
12:45:00 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/211
12:45:05 zakim, disconnect Steven
12:45:05 Steven is being disconnected
12:45:07 -Steven
12:45:12 we got your voice mail
12:45:46 SM: in ACCESS element description must have targetrole OR targetid specified - if not present, mapping ignored
12:45:49 sorry, problems with phoen here. Trying another
12:45:55 zakim, dial steven-617
12:45:55 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:45:56 +Steven
12:46:13 SM: not permitted in Access element - can have one or the other, can't have both
12:46:49 GJR: will communicate that to PF
12:46:54 -Steven
12:46:58 oh no
12:47:15 RM: user agent must only use targetid attribute values
12:47:22 "If a targetid and a targetrole are both specified for an element, a user agent MUST only use the values from the the targetid attribute."
12:48:31 RM: have resolution from 2009-04-22 telecon to cycle Access Module back through Last Call
12:48:46 -ShaneM
12:49:08 TOPIC: CURIE
12:49:17 s/CURIE/CURIEs
12:49:22 rrsagent, make minutes
12:49:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
12:49:39 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html#curie
12:49:45 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422
12:51:45 zakim, dial steven-617
12:51:45 ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:51:46 +Steven
12:51:59 +ShaneM
12:53:33 Gregory: When I go to banking services, the forms are half declarative, and half procedural
12:53:47 ... I need a role value to express this
12:54:06 ... some people are worried this would hold up ARIA
12:54:33 Shane: Add it to the role module!
12:54:33 SM: nothing to do with ARIA - just define "form" in Role Module and be done with it
12:54:36 GJR: fine with me
12:54:55 RM: return to ARIA later;
12:55:13 SM: updated CURIE spec - removed xmlns stuff and produced new editor's draft
12:55:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422
12:55:56 SM: changes CURIE into a datatype with a defines mapping with value space
12:56:12 SM: does it poorly, but does the job - can't find a better way anyway
12:56:29 SM: may get push-back from people who feel this change is too large
12:56:42 SM: already have 1 comment to that effect
12:58:07 MG: wasn't there an email that said up to host language to perform binding, so how can one have local CURIE processor
12:58:09 SM: can't
12:58:36 s/local/generic/
12:58:36 SM: always permitted alternate prefix mapping mechanisms
12:58:52 SP: introduced to open hole to allow it to be inserted into HTML5?
12:58:59 SM: what?
12:59:03 SP: leaving it to host language
12:59:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html
12:59:35 SM: no, another objection; didn't want to use xmlns as prefix mechanism
12:59:49 MG: concerned about Role Module forcing HTML vocab to be default one
13:00:02 MG: ability to redefine vocab is separate but legitimate issue
13:00:25 SM: objection from a reviewer that didn't want to be forced to use xmlns - we thought that reasonable
13:00:33 SP: strong argument against having to go to LC again
13:00:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0081.html
13:00:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0012.html
13:00:59 SP: if reviewer still objects - can state can have 1 or the other, but not both - going back to LC won't solve that problem
13:01:06 SM: generic processor never practical
13:01:18