IRC log of html-wg on 2009-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:54:06 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-irc
15:54:41 [rubys]: zakim, this will be html
15:55:06 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:55:12 [rubys]: zakim, this will be html
15:55:12 [Zakim]: rubys, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move html to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
15:56:04 [annevk]: Zakim, this is htmlwg
15:56:04 [Zakim]: sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'htmlwg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:56:17 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, start meeting
15:56:19 [Laura]: Laura has joined #html-wg
15:56:19 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:21 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be HTML
15:56:21 [Zakim]: trackbot, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move HTML to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
15:56:22 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:56:22 [trackbot]: Date: 23 April 2009
15:57:20 [annevk]: Zakim, this is html-wg
15:57:20 [Zakim]: sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'html-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:57:23 [pimpbot]: planet: WebKit's week - #8 <11http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>
15:57:28 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #html-wg
15:57:46 [annevk]: Zakim, this is HTML_WG
15:57:46 [Zakim]: ok, annevk; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
15:57:47 [Zakim]: + +1.218.349.aaaa - is perhaps Laura_Carlson?
15:59:08 [annevk]: Zakim, passcode?
15:59:09 [Zakim]: the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
15:59:19 [Zakim]: +Sam
15:59:40 [Zakim]: +??P9
15:59:46 [annevk]: Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:59:46 [Zakim]: +annevk; got it
16:00:18 [masinter]: masinter has joined #html-wg
16:01:45 [rubys]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:45 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk
16:02:29 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:02:30 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:02:30 [Zakim]: +Mike
16:03:40 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike
16:04:44 [rubys]: lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?
16:04:51 [Zakim]: +Shepazu
16:05:21 [annevk]: rubys, sounds fine
16:05:27 [MikeSmith]: rubys: yeah
16:05:40 [Zakim]: + +47.22.60.aabb
16:05:54 [masinter]: i can partcipate via IRC but can't dial in at the moment, sorry
16:06:15 [MikeSmith]: masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call
16:07:04 [annevk]: Zakim, who is on the call?
16:07:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb
16:07:22 [annevk]: Zakim, aabb is Leif
16:07:22 [Zakim]: +Leif; got it
16:07:34 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:07:36 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, microsoft is me
16:07:36 [Zakim]: +ChrisWilson; got it
16:07:40 [masinter]: I had an action item which I can report on; TAG discussion on versioning will continue today.
16:07:48 [rubys]: zakim, pick a scribe
16:07:48 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose annevk
16:07:48 [annevk]: Zakim, Laura_Carlson? is Laura
16:07:49 [Zakim]: +Laura; got it
16:08:09 [annevk]: scribe: annevk
16:08:23 [Zakim]: + +1.484.802.aacc
16:08:26 [rubys]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:08:37 [smedero]: Zakim, +1.484.802.aacc is me
16:08:37 [Zakim]: +smedero; got it
16:08:38 [Zakim]: rubys, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sam (4%), annevk (12%)
16:08:40 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, mute Mike
16:08:40 [Zakim]: Mike should now be muted
16:08:57 [smedero]: Zakim, mute smedero
16:08:57 [Zakim]: smedero should now be muted
16:09:03 [MikeSmith]: action-103?
16:09:03 [trackbot]: ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:09:03 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
16:09:03 [annevk]: ISSUE-54?
16:09:03 [trackbot]: ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN
16:09:03 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
16:09:03 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:09:04 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:09:34 [annevk]: SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?
16:09:47 [annevk]: AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re about URLs)
16:09:56 [annevk]: SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy
16:10:12 [annevk]: AvK: dunno about those
16:10:14 [smedero]: Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec since early April: http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/
16:10:16 [pimpbot]: Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme - GitHub (at github.com)
16:10:17 [annevk]: ISSUE-56?
16:10:17 [trackbot]: ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN
16:10:17 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
16:10:18 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:25 [annevk]: ISSUE-4?
16:10:25 [trackbot]: ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN
16:10:25 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
16:10:26 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:43 [rubys]: larry, care to comment?
16:10:49 [annevk]: DanC, any updates?
16:11:00 [masinter]: the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled again today
16:11:26 [rubys]: anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?
16:11:49 [masinter]: email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far looks like it will be productive
16:12:15 [annevk]: ISSUE-59?
16:12:15 [trackbot]: ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
16:12:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
16:12:41 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, unmute me
16:12:41 [Zakim]: sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:12:48 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, unmute Mike
16:12:48 [Zakim]: Mike should no longer be muted
16:12:56 [annevk]: Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
16:12:56 [Zakim]: +MikeSmith; got it
16:13:08 [annevk]: MS: The actions are still not completed
16:13:11 [annevk]: SR: New target?
16:13:20 [annevk]: MS: One week from now
16:13:26 [annevk]: SR: Ok
16:13:31 [annevk]: MS: Next week's call
16:13:49 [masinter]: I am out next week, unfortunately
16:13:49 [annevk]: ACTION-119?
16:13:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:13:49 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119
16:14:11 [Zakim]: +Julian
16:14:12 [annevk]: MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published; that's done
16:14:15 [annevk]: SR: sounds good
16:14:38 [annevk]: SR: I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss any?
16:14:53 [annevk]: [silence]
16:14:54 [Zakim]: +Masinter
16:15:08 [annevk]: SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future. Comments?
16:15:14 [masinter]: i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed
16:15:40 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make inutes
16:15:40 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:15:45 [masinter]: the schedule is aggressive
16:15:46 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:15:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:15:52 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, mute Mike
16:15:52 [Zakim]: MikeSmith should now be muted
16:15:56 [annevk]: LM: the schedule is aggressive
16:16:19 [annevk]: CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us into I'm in favor of
16:16:47 [annevk]: CW: it forces us into the prioritarization exercise
16:17:03 [annevk]: LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
16:17:20 [LHSilli]: LHSilli has joined #html-wg
16:17:25 [annevk]: LM: the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions
16:17:35 [annevk]: Zakim, Leif is LHSilli
16:17:35 [Zakim]: +LHSilli; got it
16:17:56 [annevk]: DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but it's worthwhile to have them.
16:18:04 [annevk]: SR: Any volunteers?
16:18:23 [annevk]: CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or writing the tests?
16:18:36 [MikeSmith]: takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the test suite
16:18:48 [MikeSmith]: dunno if he still has time to do that or not
16:18:55 [annevk]: SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything that's not required for which there are no volunteers.
16:19:11 [annevk]: DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?
16:19:13 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:19:30 [annevk]: CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating around the interwebs
16:19:34 [MikeSmith]: takkaria = Andi Sidwell
16:19:45 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, unmute Mike
16:19:45 [Zakim]: MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:19:47 [annevk]: CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for a couple of months?
16:19:54 [annevk]: DS: can we create an issue for this?
16:20:08 [annevk]: MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic
16:20:23 [Philip]: takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time in the near future for HTML stuff
16:20:38 [Philip]: (Stated in this channel, in particular)
16:20:49 [annevk]: MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the tests
16:20:55 [Philip]: and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to do the test stuff
16:21:05 [annevk]: MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsbility to decide all the basics so we could get started
16:21:53 [annevk]: AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have enough time
16:22:00 [annevk]: SR: I commend his honesty
16:22:15 [Philip]: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267
16:22:17 [annevk]: SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?
16:22:27 [Philip]: # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:
16:22:27 [Philip]: # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking iton
16:22:30 [MikeSmith]: Chair: SamRuby
16:22:38 [annevk]: DS: I don't have enough time.
16:22:43 [annevk]: DS: [missed]
16:22:50 [annevk]: SR: I hear interest from CW?
16:22:56 [annevk]: CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.
16:23:05 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:23:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:23:17 [annevk]: SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw things in?
16:23:25 [annevk]: CW: we can start there
16:23:37 [annevk]: CW: getting the tests reviewed is hard
16:23:49 [Philip]: There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial
16:24:00 [annevk]: CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
16:24:08 [MikeSmith]: q+ to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
16:24:12 [annevk]: CW: AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now
16:24:21 [annevk]: [I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]
16:24:30 [annevk]: DS: There already is a test repository right?
16:24:33 [smedero]: I thought there were also issues with the software licenses that could be used for a test
16:24:37 [annevk]: MS: yes, fairly trivial
16:24:50 [annevk]: DS: we can create a tracker product
16:25:05 [annevk]: DS: we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do something with what we have right now
16:25:16 [annevk]: DS: use the review process that we have used for SVG
16:25:25 [annevk]: DS: not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for HTML
16:25:33 [Philip]: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some test-related thoughts and links
16:25:44 [annevk]: DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to get the ball rolling
16:25:55 [annevk]: DS: put together a review process, test repository
16:26:17 [annevk]: CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and cross-document messaging
16:26:22 [smedero]: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm
16:26:36 [annevk]: CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever you want (same as CSS)
16:26:47 [smedero]: Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site
16:27:05 [masinter]: maybe there's some cross-group test?
16:27:31 [Philip]: I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the WebApps WG?
16:27:37 [smedero]: There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm
16:27:44 [smedero]: dunno if there's any cross-over....
16:27:47 [annevk]: [Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]
16:28:36 [annevk]: LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary of WGs.
16:28:53 [annevk]: CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea
16:29:03 [annevk]: DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
16:29:15 [annevk]: DS: start something up, transform it later
16:29:28 [annevk]: LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
16:29:32 [annevk]: LM: CSS on top of HTML
16:29:41 [annevk]: DS: I meant boundaries between technologies
16:29:47 [Philip]: (I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly complete list of current tests for HTML5)
16:29:57 [annevk]: [obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]
16:30:15 [masinter]: q+
16:30:23 [annevk]: DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I won't be here in two weeks.
16:30:35 [annevk]: DS: you can still discuss it because it'll be done
16:30:54 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:30:58 [rubys]: ack MikeSmith
16:30:58 [Zakim]: MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
16:30:58 [MikeSmith]: ack MikeSmith
16:31:18 [annevk]: MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases without proper review.
16:31:41 [annevk]: MS: It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking tests from anyone.
16:31:46 [gsnedders]: gsnedders has joined #html-wg
16:31:58 [annevk]: SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?
16:32:01 [Philip]: MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised repository
16:32:16 [annevk]: MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the tests independently.
16:32:36 [annevk]: MS: We have that for validator.nu too.
16:32:52 [annevk]: MS: Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
16:33:14 [annevk]: MS: Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible for fixing them is not too useful.
16:33:24 [Philip]: External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't sound good
16:33:41 [annevk]: DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to sovle a problem we don't know the bounds of
16:34:36 [annevk]: MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.
16:34:42 [annevk]: DS: I think we need a team.
16:34:50 [annevk]: MS: that's fairly hypothetical.
16:35:08 [annevk]: DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them cookies and beer.
16:35:22 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:35:23 [annevk]: MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is comitted.
16:35:44 [annevk]: DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?
16:35:45 [rubys]: ack masinter
16:37:08 [annevk]: LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure out if we can improve things.
16:37:10 [shepazu]: q+
16:37:37 [annevk]: LM: I'm soliciting folks who are interested in persuing this.
16:37:46 [annevk]: LM: and also [missed]
16:37:57 [masinter]: also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?
16:38:23 [shepazu]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
16:38:40 [annevk]: DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some overlap
16:38:42 [ChrisWilson]: I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...
16:39:03 [annevk]: DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by reference.
16:39:15 [annevk]: DS: If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
16:39:37 [annevk]: DS: the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the Window interface of the embedded object
16:39:54 [annevk]: DS: a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash
16:40:38 [annevk]: LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
16:40:52 [annevk]: LM: requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain security policies.
16:40:54 [takkaria]: whoever looks at tests might want to look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put together a few months ago
16:41:22 [annevk]: DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing
16:41:32 [annevk]: LM: I have a priliminary doc
16:41:43 [annevk]: AvK: how this affect HTML?
16:41:53 [takkaria]: oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad
16:41:56 [annevk]: LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
16:41:57 [smedero]: s/how this/how does this/
16:42:11 [annevk]: LM: existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact with plug-ins
16:43:12 [Julian]: q+
16:43:13 [annevk]: SR: anything else?
16:43:21 [shepazu]: q-
16:43:29 [rubys]: ack julian
16:43:42 [annevk]: JR: I was looking at the @profile issue.
16:43:55 [annevk]: JR: If nothing is done will it be gone from HTML5?
16:43:58 [annevk]: SR: Yes.
16:44:06 [annevk]: JR: What will be needed for this not to happen?
16:44:50 [annevk]: JR: [something about a bug]
16:45:02 [annevk]: JR: I'd be in favor of an erratum for HTML4 and a similar fix for HTML5
16:45:42 [annevk]: SR: If there is consensus for a change I'd be in favor, but I'm not sure if there is
16:45:53 [Laura]: q
16:46:00 [annevk]: SR: Anything else?
16:46:09 [annevk]: LC: does the same hold true for the summary attribute?
16:46:11 [annevk]: SR: yes
16:46:16 [gavin_]: gavin_ has joined #html-wg
16:46:45 [annevk]: SR: the deadline is not next week, but if something needs to be done we do need consensus
16:46:52 [annevk]: SR: anything else?
16:46:55 [annevk]: SR: ok, adjourned
16:46:56 [Zakim]: -ChrisWilson
16:46:57 [Zakim]: -Sam
16:46:58 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
16:46:58 [Zakim]: MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:47:00 [Zakim]: -MikeSmith
16:47:03 [Zakim]: -smedero
16:47:07 [Zakim]: -annevk
16:47:09 [Zakim]: -Laura
16:47:12 [Zakim]: -Julian
16:47:13 [Zakim]: -Masinter
16:47:14 [Zakim]: -LHSilli
16:47:17 [Zakim]: -Shepazu
16:47:18 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:47:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.218.349.aaaa, Sam, annevk, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb, ChrisWilson, Laura, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Masinter, LHSilli
16:48:27 [adele]: adele has joined #html-wg
16:48:28 [annevk]: masinter, the generated minutes exclude /me lines
16:48:35 [annevk]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:48:35 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html annevk
16:48:40 [annevk]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:49:20 [smedero]: Regrets+ DaveSinger
16:49:56 [annevk]: someone should prolly fix the minutes up a bit if we think they're useful
16:50:02 [annevk]: e.g. introduce a few topic lines
16:50:53 [annevk]: usually the topic of discourse was introduced while i was already writing things down so there was not really enough time to make it all fancy
16:53:57 [smedero]: s/partcipate/participate/
16:54:23 [smedero]: s/prioritarization/prioritization/
16:54:42 [smedero]: s/responsbility/responsibility/
16:55:01 [smedero]: s/iton/it on/
16:55:32 [smedero]: s/sovle/solve/
16:55:50 [smedero]: s/comitted/committed/
16:56:14 [smedero]: s/persuing/perusing/
16:56:32 [smedero]: s/priliminary/preliminary/
16:56:42 [smedero]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:56:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
16:58:32 [smedero]: s/rubys, sounds fine/rubys: sounds fine/
16:59:43 [annevk]: s/perusing/pursuing/
17:00:40 [Philip]: s/rubys: sounds fine/rubys, sounds fine/
17:01:18 [smedero]: ScribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final
17:01:24 [smedero]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:01:24 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
17:07:16 [smedero]: RRSAgent, bye
17:07:16 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items