15:54:06 RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:54:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-irc
15:54:41 zakim, this will be html
15:55:06 Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:55:12 zakim, this will be html
15:55:12 rubys, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move html to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
15:56:04 Zakim, this is htmlwg
15:56:04 sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'htmlwg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:56:17 trackbot, start meeting
15:56:19 Laura has joined #html-wg
15:56:19 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:21 Zakim, this will be HTML
15:56:21 trackbot, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move HTML to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
15:56:22 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:56:22 Date: 23 April 2009
15:57:20 Zakim, this is html-wg
15:57:20 sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'html-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:57:23 planet: WebKit's week - #8 <11http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>
15:57:28 dbaron has joined #html-wg
15:57:46 Zakim, this is HTML_WG
15:57:46 ok, annevk; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
15:57:47 + +1.218.349.aaaa - is perhaps Laura_Carlson?
15:59:08 Zakim, passcode?
15:59:09 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
15:59:19 +Sam
15:59:40 +??P9
15:59:46 Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:59:46 +annevk; got it
16:00:18 masinter has joined #html-wg
16:01:45 zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:45 On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk
16:02:29 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:02:30 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:02:30 +Mike
16:03:40 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:40 On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike
16:04:44 lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?
16:04:51 +Shepazu
16:05:21 rubys, sounds fine
16:05:27 rubys: yeah
16:05:40 + +47.22.60.aabb
16:05:54 i can partcipate via IRC but can't dial in at the moment, sorry
16:06:15 masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call
16:07:04 Zakim, who is on the call?
16:07:04 On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb
16:07:22 Zakim, aabb is Leif
16:07:22 +Leif; got it
16:07:34 +[Microsoft]
16:07:36 zakim, microsoft is me
16:07:36 +ChrisWilson; got it
16:07:40 I had an action item which I can report on; TAG discussion on versioning will continue today.
16:07:48 zakim, pick a scribe
16:07:48 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose annevk
16:07:48 Zakim, Laura_Carlson? is Laura
16:07:49 +Laura; got it
16:08:09 scribe: annevk
16:08:23 + +1.484.802.aacc
16:08:26 zakim, who is making noise?
16:08:37 Zakim, +1.484.802.aacc is me
16:08:37 +smedero; got it
16:08:38 rubys, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sam (4%), annevk (12%)
16:08:40 Zakim, mute Mike
16:08:40 Mike should now be muted
16:08:57 Zakim, mute smedero
16:08:57 smedero should now be muted
16:09:03 action-103?
16:09:03 ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:09:03 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
16:09:03 ISSUE-54?
16:09:03 ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate -- OPEN
16:09:03 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
16:09:03 Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:09:04 Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:09:34 SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?
16:09:47 AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re about URLs)
16:09:56 SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy
16:10:12 AvK: dunno about those
16:10:14 Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec since early April: http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/
16:10:16 Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme - GitHub (at github.com)
16:10:17 ISSUE-56?
16:10:17 ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN
16:10:17 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
16:10:18 Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:25 ISSUE-4?
16:10:25 ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN
16:10:25 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
16:10:26 Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:43 larry, care to comment?
16:10:49 DanC, any updates?
16:11:00 the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled again today
16:11:26 anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?
16:11:49 email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far looks like it will be productive
16:12:15 ISSUE-59?
16:12:15 ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
16:12:15 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
16:12:41 Zakim, unmute me
16:12:41 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:12:48 Zakim, unmute Mike
16:12:48 Mike should no longer be muted
16:12:56 Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
16:12:56 +MikeSmith; got it
16:13:08 MS: The actions are still not completed
16:13:11 SR: New target?
16:13:20 MS: One week from now
16:13:26 SR: Ok
16:13:31 MS: Next week's call
16:13:49 I am out next week, unfortunately
16:13:49 ACTION-119?
16:13:49 ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:13:49 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119
16:14:11 +Julian
16:14:12 MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published; that's done
16:14:15 SR: sounds good
16:14:38 SR: I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss any?
16:14:53 [silence]
16:14:54 +Masinter
16:15:08 SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future. Comments?
16:15:14 i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed
16:15:40 RRSAgent, make inutes
16:15:40 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:15:45 the schedule is aggressive
16:15:46 RRSAgent, make minutes
16:15:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:15:52 Zakim, mute Mike
16:15:52 MikeSmith should now be muted
16:15:56 LM: the schedule is aggressive
16:16:19 CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us into I'm in favor of
16:16:47 CW: it forces us into the prioritarization exercise
16:17:03 LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
16:17:20 LHSilli has joined #html-wg
16:17:25 LM: the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions
16:17:35 Zakim, Leif is LHSilli
16:17:35 +LHSilli; got it
16:17:56 DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but it's worthwhile to have them.
16:18:04 SR: Any volunteers?
16:18:23 CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or writing the tests?
16:18:36 takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the test suite
16:18:48 dunno if he still has time to do that or not
16:18:55 SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything that's not required for which there are no volunteers.
16:19:11 DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?
16:19:13 RRSAgent, make logs public
16:19:30 CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating around the interwebs
16:19:34 takkaria = Andi Sidwell
16:19:45 Zakim, unmute Mike
16:19:45 MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:19:47 CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for a couple of months?
16:19:54 DS: can we create an issue for this?
16:20:08 MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic
16:20:23 takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time in the near future for HTML stuff
16:20:38 (Stated in this channel, in particular)
16:20:49 MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the tests
16:20:55 and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to do the test stuff
16:21:05 MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsbility to decide all the basics so we could get started
16:21:53 AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have enough time
16:22:00 SR: I commend his honesty
16:22:15 http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267
16:22:17 SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?
16:22:27 # [20:33] news on the testsuite front:
16:22:27 # [20:34] I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking iton
16:22:30 Chair: SamRuby
16:22:38 DS: I don't have enough time.
16:22:43 DS: [missed]
16:22:50 SR: I hear interest from CW?
16:22:56 CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.
16:23:05 RRSAgent, make minutes
16:23:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:23:17 SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw things in?
16:23:25 CW: we can start there
16:23:37 CW: getting the tests reviewed is hard
16:23:49 There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial
16:24:00 CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
16:24:08 q+ to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
16:24:12 CW: AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now
16:24:21 [I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]
16:24:30 DS: There already is a test repository right?
16:24:33 I thought there were also issues with the software licenses that could be used for a test
16:24:37 MS: yes, fairly trivial
16:24:50 DS: we can create a tracker product
16:25:05 DS: we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do something with what we have right now
16:25:16 DS: use the review process that we have used for SVG
16:25:25 DS: not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for HTML
16:25:33 http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some test-related thoughts and links
16:25:44 DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to get the ball rolling
16:25:55 DS: put together a review process, test repository
16:26:17 CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and cross-document messaging
16:26:22 http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm
16:26:36 CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever you want (same as CSS)
16:26:47 Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site
16:27:05 maybe there's some cross-group test?
16:27:31 I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the WebApps WG?
16:27:37 There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm
16:27:44 dunno if there's any cross-over....
16:27:47 [Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]
16:28:36 LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary of WGs.
16:28:53 CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea
16:29:03 DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
16:29:15 DS: start something up, transform it later
16:29:28 LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
16:29:32 LM: CSS on top of HTML
16:29:41 DS: I meant boundaries between technologies
16:29:47 (I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly complete list of current tests for HTML5)
16:29:57 [obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]
16:30:15 q+
16:30:23 DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I won't be here in two weeks.
16:30:35 DS: you can still discuss it because it'll be done
16:30:54 q?
16:30:58 ack MikeSmith
16:30:58 MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
16:30:58 ack MikeSmith
16:31:18 MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases without proper review.
16:31:41 MS: It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking tests from anyone.
16:31:46 gsnedders has joined #html-wg
16:31:58 SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?
16:32:01 MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised repository
16:32:16 MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the tests independently.
16:32:36 MS: We have that for validator.nu too.
16:32:52 MS: Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
16:33:14 MS: Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible for fixing them is not too useful.
16:33:24 External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't sound good
16:33:41 DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to sovle a problem we don't know the bounds of
16:34:36 MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.
16:34:42 DS: I think we need a team.
16:34:50 MS: that's fairly hypothetical.
16:35:08 DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them cookies and beer.
16:35:22 q?
16:35:23 MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is comitted.
16:35:44 DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?
16:35:45 ack masinter
16:37:08 LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure out if we can improve things.
16:37:10 q+
16:37:37 LM: I'm soliciting folks who are interested in persuing this.
16:37:46 LM: and also [missed]
16:37:57 also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?
16:38:23 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
16:38:40 DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some overlap
16:38:42 I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...
16:39:03 DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by reference.
16:39:15 DS: If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
16:39:37 DS: the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the Window interface of the embedded object
16:39:54 DS: a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash
16:40:38 LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
16:40:52 LM: requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain security policies.
16:40:54 whoever looks at tests might want to look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put together a few months ago
16:41:22 DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing
16:41:32 LM: I have a priliminary doc
16:41:43 AvK: how this affect HTML?
16:41:53 oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad
16:41:56 LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
16:41:57 s/how this/how does this/
16:42:11 LM: existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact with plug-ins
16:43:12 q+
16:43:13