IRC log of svg on 2009-04-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:32:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
06:32:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/22-svg-irc
06:32:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:32:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:32:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:32:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
06:32:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:32:33 [trackbot]
Date: 22 April 2009
06:32:48 [jwatt]
yikes
06:33:00 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:33:08 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
06:33:20 [Zakim]
+??P1
06:33:29 [ed]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
06:33:29 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
06:33:39 [ChrisL]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0055.html
06:33:45 [Zakim]
+??P4
06:33:47 [Zakim]
+??P2
06:33:48 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
06:33:49 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:34:14 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:34:21 [anthony]
Zakim, [IP is me
06:34:21 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:34:27 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
06:34:57 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is noisy?
06:34:57 [Zakim]
I am sorry, ChrisL; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
06:35:06 [ChrisL]
zakim, you suck
06:35:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you suck', ChrisL
06:35:08 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
06:35:08 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
06:35:14 [jwatt]
(probably)
06:35:49 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:35:52 [anthony]
Chair: Erik
06:36:06 [anthony]
Topic: SVG Color
06:36:18 [anthony]
CL: I sent in some notes
06:36:31 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0057.html
06:36:41 [anthony]
CL: First thing
06:36:49 [anthony]
... was case insensitivity
06:37:07 [anthony]
... DS had complained that there was mixed casing
06:37:21 [anthony]
... AG and I explained that's how it should be specified in the color world
06:37:46 [anthony]
... I tested the mixed case RGB
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
firefox 3.1 case-insensitive
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
opera 10a case-sensitive
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
safari 4b (crash!)
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
batik 1.7 case-insensitive
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
asv3 allows rgb or RGB but not mixed case
06:38:10 [anthony]
CL: Those are my results
06:38:29 [anthony]
Zakim, unmute anthony
06:38:29 [Zakim]
anthony should no longer be muted
06:38:49 [anthony]
CL: Need someone to test a different build of Safari
06:38:59 [anthony]
... Mixed case is not allowed in ASV3
06:39:33 [anthony]
... my Corel viewer fails to run
06:39:43 [anthony]
DS: Did you test Renesis?
06:39:46 [anthony]
CL: No
06:39:59 [anthony]
... I'm trying to figure out if I should go to case insensitive
06:40:21 [anthony]
ED: In Opera we are case sensitive for anything that's an attribute
06:40:30 [anthony]
... it might be possible to change it
06:40:44 [anthony]
JW: For Mozilla, presentation attributes are placed to the style system
06:41:01 [anthony]
... which is why they are case insensitive
06:41:31 [anthony]
CL: Presumably you'd be arguing for case insensitivity because that's the way you do it?
06:41:40 [anthony]
JW: Depends if it's easy to make it that way or not
06:41:57 [anthony]
... don't really have a strong opinion on this
06:42:04 [anthony]
CL: Sounds like we have some flexibility
06:42:28 [anthony]
... I remember Doug's comment
06:43:22 [anthony]
CM: For the general issue I'd be in favor of having presentation attributes case insensitive in general
06:43:56 [anthony]
CL: I guess it'd be ok if it would be case insensitive
06:45:34 [anthony]
... I attached a test in my email
06:45:40 [anthony]
ED: I can test it in Safari
06:45:47 [anthony]
... Same color everywhere
06:45:56 [anthony]
CL: Safari is case insensitive
06:49:23 [anthony]
AG: I think it would be ok have case insensitive values, but have the correct/preferred syntax in the spec
06:53:35 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/styling.html#CaseSensitivity
06:56:57 [anthony]
CL: Opera allows lower case in the color key names
06:57:50 [anthony]
... and mixed case
06:58:06 [ChrisL]
batik allows upper case and mixed cASe in color names
06:59:30 [anthony]
CM: We can just change RGB in ICC for 1.1
06:59:55 [eseidel]
eseidel has joined #svg
07:00:43 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Add an item to the F1.1 errata that allows case insensitivity for the 'RGB' value when painting
07:00:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2525 - Add an item to the F1.1 errata that allows case insensitivity for the 'RGB' value when painting [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-04-29].
07:01:09 [anthony]
CL: The next question I had was a bout number format in ICC
07:01:13 [ChrisL]
number format in icc(name, number, bumber....)
07:01:48 [anthony]
CL: we need to discuss what number format we want
07:01:55 [anthony]
... because 1.1 only allows a float
07:02:20 [anthony]
... For attribute values that are not properties scientific notation is allowed
07:02:28 [anthony]
... I haven't done any tests on what implementations do
07:02:32 [anthony]
... but I should
07:02:53 [anthony]
CM: It is unlikely that the numbers would require scientific notation because they are so small
07:03:19 [anthony]
... each color profile defines a standard range?
07:03:24 [anthony]
CL: I don't know
07:03:54 [anthony]
... some of them allow negative colors to express out of gamut colours
07:04:03 [ChrisL]
fairly sure that some allow > 1.0 for headroom; believe trhat some cms allow negative values and others clip
07:04:16 [anthony]
CM: I think 0 to 1 makes more sense
07:04:26 [anthony]
CL: Which would be compatible with what 1.1 says
07:05:12 [anthony]
... values greater than 1 or less than 0 would be out of the profile gamut but no necessarily out of the target gamut
07:05:35 [anthony]
... I'd be fine with that
07:06:15 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: A float in the range 0 to 1 like SVG 1.1 and no Scientific notation
07:06:24 [ChrisL]
topic: conformance
07:06:28 [ChrisL]
- unconformant
07:06:28 [ChrisL]
- uses fallback colour, ignores profile in tagged images(SVG 1.1/1.2T, but not this spec)
07:06:28 [ChrisL]
- tagged image conformant
07:06:28 [ChrisL]
- uses fallback colour, honors profile in tagged images
07:06:28 [ChrisL]
- fully conformant
07:06:30 [ChrisL]
- uses icc and device colors in preference to fallback colour, honors profile in tagged images
07:06:39 [anthony]
CL: I'd like to have two conformance levels
07:06:53 [anthony]
... one is that it doesn't do the color spec
07:06:56 [anthony]
... always falls back
07:07:03 [anthony]
... the next one would be that
07:07:16 [anthony]
... it falls back but does honor the profile in tagged images
07:07:28 [anthony]
... FireFox does that already according to their release notes
07:07:43 [anthony]
... What does Opera do in terms of color profiles?
07:07:54 [anthony]
ED: I don't think it does anything useful with them at the moment
07:08:01 [anthony]
... I think that might be something we implement
07:08:12 [anthony]
CL: The other level of conformance is it does everything
07:10:13 [anthony]
... It's easier to decide to implement a spec if you already half pass. More so for encouragement
07:11:50 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: There will be two conformance levels in the Color specification
07:12:02 [anthony]
CL: Rendering intents
07:12:14 [anthony]
... we got some text from HP
07:12:24 [anthony]
... the text would fit ok, in the Primer
07:12:30 [anthony]
... it's not exactly specification text
07:12:47 [anthony]
... but is seems that, relative and absolute colormeric
07:12:54 [anthony]
... is testable
07:13:11 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-print/2008Feb/0005.html
07:13:22 [anthony]
... but perceptual is harder
07:13:25 [anthony]
... to test
07:15:39 [anthony]
http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/PublishingAndPrintingWithSVG/index.html#S8.3.2
07:20:18 [anthony]
... We might be able to do some tests in the test suite
07:20:39 [anthony]
... apparently many profiles only include a single rendering intent type
07:20:48 [anthony]
... the specification needs to specify what to do in that case
07:21:33 [anthony]
ED: We should probably take this to email
07:21:50 [anthony]
Topic: SVG Compositing
07:22:02 [anthony]
ED: Anything to report
07:22:08 [anthony]
AG: I think it's ready to publish
07:22:22 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/master/
07:24:01 [ChrisL]
please ensure that normative and informative references are called out separately
07:27:20 [ed]
needs to run master2publish, doesn't have a publish subdir
07:30:22 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Get the master2publish script working for the modules
07:30:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2526 - Get the master2publish script working for the modules [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-29].
07:31:27 [anthony]
Topic: SVG Integration
07:32:11 [shepazu]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
07:32:14 [anthony]
DS: So far I don't have much on it
07:32:57 [anthony]
... I basically took the embedding document and I gave them each a set of feature definitions
07:34:06 [anthony]
... I don't know if we should put something about CSS in there or not
07:34:16 [anthony]
... do you think that would be affected?
07:34:26 [anthony]
... I think it's orthogonal
07:34:48 [shepazu]
Feature Definitions: declarative animation, external reference, link traversal, script execution, interaction
07:34:59 [anthony]
... There is something in HTML5 and you have an iFrame and set it to seamless
07:35:09 [anthony]
... it will inherit the CSS from the parent document
07:35:17 [anthony]
... I should probably reference that
07:35:22 [anthony]
... Each of these things
07:35:30 [anthony]
... which what I'm calling feature definitions
07:35:40 [anthony]
... I should put in the feature stings for all of these
07:35:46 [anthony]
... if you look through the section
07:35:57 [anthony]
... I give a definition for what the feature is
07:36:00 [anthony]
... and I give a table
07:36:10 [anthony]
... and a little explanation of it
07:36:20 [anthony]
... I have a bunch of referencing mode
07:36:30 [anthony]
... and I talk about how each feature applies
07:37:32 [anthony]
... That's are the most complete section I have
07:37:39 [anthony]
... there other sections to come
07:37:59 [anthony]
... I slightly worked my original image
07:38:25 [anthony]
s/worked/re-worked/
07:38:39 [anthony]
... I took sections out of SVG Tiny 1.2 or SVG 1.1 as appropriate
07:38:49 [anthony]
... to specify how to make extensions to SVG
07:39:10 [anthony]
... I intend on talking about foreign name spaces
07:39:51 [anthony]
... I also talk about encoding
07:39:57 [anthony]
... XML and non-XML
07:40:23 [anthony]
... Sections 5 and 6 is where I intend on putting the list of element definitions
07:40:29 [anthony]
... I'll have a table which will have an element name
07:40:55 [anthony]
... it will have pointers to either SVG 1.1 or SVG Tiny 1.2
07:41:02 [anthony]
... to the definitions of the elements
07:41:17 [anthony]
... and hopefully we will have a list of attributes that can go on the element
07:41:22 [ChrisL]
q+
07:41:27 [anthony]
... I will have the same thing for attributes
07:41:39 [anthony]
CM: So will this be the Union of the specs or the modules?
07:41:47 [anthony]
DS: This will point to any relevant spec
07:42:01 [anthony]
CM: And the intention that this is a place that you can go to
07:42:11 [anthony]
CL: What about when we have modules that are not in Rec?
07:42:49 [anthony]
DS: If this goes to Recommendation, we continuously publish an errata for this
07:42:59 [anthony]
... it would be multiple editions
07:43:05 [anthony]
CL: Wouldn't really be an errata
07:43:15 [anthony]
DS: I plan on this being part of the Core for SVG 2.0
07:50:37 [anthony]
... I've also been looking at CDF to see what their strategy is
07:53:06 [anthony]
... There are some parameters that are defined in CDF that have to do with SVG like whether animation activates
07:53:13 [anthony]
... that really should be defined in SVG
07:53:24 [anthony]
... and that might go into this integration spec
07:53:43 [ChrisL]
ack c
07:55:45 [ChrisL]
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum21/11870.htm
07:57:08 [anthony]
Topic: Favicon
07:57:36 [anthony]
ED: I allowed Opera to use SVG for Favicons
07:58:04 [anthony]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon
07:58:19 [anthony]
CL: Lets assume you do something similar in SVG
07:58:44 [anthony]
ED: What I was thinking of was including the icon in the document itself
07:58:50 [anthony]
... that would allow script access
07:59:19 [anthony]
DS: I would say, it should be in secure animation mode
07:59:23 [anthony]
... that would allow animation
07:59:27 [anthony]
... just not external references
07:59:31 [ChrisL]
<use role="shortcut icon" xlink:href="#myFav" ....>
07:59:34 [anthony]
... so I could use that here
08:00:54 [ed]
<xhtml:link rel="shortcut icon" href="#myFav"/>
08:04:07 [ChrisL]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon
08:04:33 [ChrisL]
<svg role="accessible: no" ....>
08:05:57 [anthony]
... they are only normative as so far as, they can be referenced normative
08:06:11 [anthony]
Topic: Parameters
08:06:15 [shepazu]
http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html
08:06:25 [ChrisL]
issue-2265?
08:06:25 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2265 -- Consider adding a parameter referencing and defaulting mechanism -- RAISED
08:06:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2265
08:06:42 [anthony]
DS: I considered it
08:06:46 [anthony]
... and this is what I came up with
08:06:57 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/howto-favicon
08:07:01 [anthony]
... I had the idea of being able to get at the parameters somehow
08:08:01 [anthony]
... most of this material would be in the primer
08:08:07 [anthony]
... for the button it works pretty well
08:09:23 [anthony]
... as you scroll down you see the parameters are used for position
08:10:19 [anthony]
... in my proposal any attribute could take a IRI with parameters
08:11:40 [anthony]
... the ref element has an 'id' a 'param' and a 'default' value
08:11:45 [anthony]
... so if you have no parameter at all
08:11:53 [anthony]
... that's what it will default to
08:12:12 [anthony]
... there are two open questions
08:12:25 [anthony]
... do you think making IRIs to work in this way would be a problem?
08:13:05 [anthony]
CL: if an IRI already has mean that is similar to this how does it work?
08:14:02 [anthony]
ED: What about the references that take a string at the moment?
08:14:35 [anthony]
DS: I made it so that there could be a child default value
08:15:22 [anthony]
... this would allow <tref> to work with parameterisation
08:15:34 [anthony]
... the actual value could always be the child
08:15:46 [anthony]
... it matches the 'param' and sets it as it's child value
08:16:07 [anthony]
... and the way you reference a paint when the paint is a ref is that it takes the string value of the first child
08:16:22 [anthony]
... so get rid of default and the value would always be the child content
08:16:33 [anthony]
CM: Would you have a modified DOM?
08:16:49 [anthony]
DS: Haven't decided if it would modify the DOM or if it would be an animated value
08:17:36 [anthony]
CM: I would find it strange if it mutated the document
08:18:28 [anthony]
CL: When you look in the DOM do you see the modified or the original, or both
08:19:25 [anthony]
... security exploit?
08:19:43 [anthony]
DS: So it can be set using a URI or a param element
08:20:00 [anthony]
... but if you supply the param element it overrides the URI string
08:20:59 [anthony]
... I came to the conclusion that what if I wanted someone to allow someone certain content. I pass someone a link to my goods with a certain URL
08:21:21 [anthony]
... and they override the URI to put their own links in
08:21:41 [anthony]
... so I think they are serving adds for me but they are serving adds for someone else
08:22:34 [anthony]
... I think the URI should override anything the params say
08:22:52 [anthony]
CL: Do you have to de-reference anything?
08:22:57 [anthony]
DS: No
08:23:17 [anthony]
CL: If you had to de-reference it, I could give you a redirect 301
08:23:51 [anthony]
DS: I thought about extending the Window or Default View interface to have a list of parameters
08:24:03 [anthony]
... no spec has a list of what the parameters are
08:24:43 [anthony]
... it would be a list of all the name value pairs
08:26:27 [Zakim]
-jwatt
08:26:29 [Zakim]
-ed
08:26:32 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
08:26:34 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
08:26:37 [Zakim]
-anthony
08:26:49 [Zakim]
-heycam
08:26:50 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:26:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, ed, heycam, [IPcaller], anthony, ChrisL, jwatt
08:27:01 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
08:27:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
08:27:09 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:27:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/22-svg-minutes.html anthony
08:28:52 [jwatt]
err
08:29:01 [jwatt]
I didn't mean to hang up there
08:29:03 [jwatt]
sorry
08:29:25 [ChrisL]
its ok, we finished
08:29:29 [jwatt]
stupid skype got confused with me trying to change my audio input
08:29:32 [jwatt]
ok
08:29:35 [jwatt]
cool
09:29:14 [heycam]
heycam has joined #svg
11:51:09 [heycam]
hey anthony, yt?
11:52:21 [heycam]
i'm going to check in some changes to the compositing spec for it to work with the build scripts
12:53:07 [heycam]
close action-2526
12:53:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-2526 Get compositing spec publication script working closed