IRC log of owl on 2009-04-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:52:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/22-owl-irc
16:52:55 [Rinke]
Zakim, this is owl
16:52:55 [Zakim]
Rinke, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owl".
16:53:02 [Rinke]
Zakim, this will be owl
16:53:02 [Zakim]
ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:53:16 [Rinke]
RRSAgent, make records public
16:55:44 [Christine]
Christine has joined #owl
16:56:28 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
16:56:29 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:56:44 [MarkusK_]
MarkusK_ has joined #owl
16:57:04 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
16:57:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were
16:57:21 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
16:57:22 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:57:29 [IanH]
IanH has joined #owl
16:58:07 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:58:08 [Zakim]
-??P5
16:58:08 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:58:12 [IanH]
Well, in two minutes presumably
16:58:12 [Christine]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:58:12 [Zakim]
+Christine; got it
16:59:08 [Zakim]
+IanH
16:59:10 [alanr]
alanr has joined #owl
16:59:30 [Zakim]
+??P8
16:59:33 [Rinke]
zakim, ??P8 is me
16:59:33 [Zakim]
+Rinke; got it
16:59:34 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke
16:59:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
16:59:37 [Rinke]
zakim, mute me
16:59:37 [Zakim]
Rinke should now be muted
16:59:39 [IanH]
IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.04.22/Agenda
16:59:46 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:59:51 [IanH]
Zakim, this will be owlwg
16:59:51 [Zakim]
ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
17:00:01 [IanH]
RRSAgent, make records public
17:00:05 [ewallace]
ewallace has joined #owl
17:00:32 [bmotik]
bmotik has joined #owl
17:00:56 [bcuencagrau]
bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:01:13 [IanH]
ScribeNick: Christine
17:01:21 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:21 [Zakim]
I notice SW_OWL()1:00PM has restarted
17:01:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, jar, bmotik
17:01:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:01:28 [alanr]
zakim, jar is alanr
17:01:28 [Zakim]
+alanr; got it
17:01:49 [Zakim]
+bmotik.a
17:02:03 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik, bmotik.a
17:02:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:02:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aabb
17:02:20 [uli]
uli has joined #owl
17:02:28 [bmotik]
Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau
17:02:28 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau; got it
17:02:31 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
17:02:32 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:02:33 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:02:35 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau
17:02:35 [Zakim]
sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik.a'
17:02:44 [Zhe]
Zhe has joined #owl
17:02:54 [bijan]
bijan has joined #owl
17:03:00 [bcuencagrau]
bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:03:00 [zimmer]
zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me
17:03:00 [Zakim]
+zimmer; got it
17:03:08 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
17:03:08 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:03:09 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace
17:03:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:03:14 [bmotik]
-q
17:03:35 [Zakim]
+??P16
17:03:36 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, ??P16
17:03:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:03:41 [Zakim]
+??P17
17:03:42 [uli]
zakim, ??P16 is me
17:03:43 [Zakim]
+uli; got it
17:03:47 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:03:47 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:03:58 [bijan]
zakim, ??P17 is me
17:03:58 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
17:04:33 [msmith]
msmith has joined #owl
17:04:34 [pfps]
alanr: agenda amendments are in the agenda
17:04:59 [Zakim]
+msmith
17:05:16 [pfps]
minutes look OK
17:05:24 [IanH]
alanr: will take amended agenda items at appropriate place in agenda
17:05:43 [alanr]
PROPOSED accept minutes of (15 April)
17:05:46 [Christine]
Christine has joined #owl
17:05:51 [Rinke]
+1
17:05:52 [IanH]
+1
17:05:54 [pfps]
+1
17:06:00 [alanr]
RESOLVED accept minutes of (15 April)
17:06:02 [ewallace]
+1
17:06:13 [bijan]
+1
17:06:23 [Christine]
Topic: Documents and Reviewing
17:07:09 [IanH]
q+
17:07:15 [alanr]
ack IanH
17:07:51 [IanH]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Round_6#Publicity_Tracking
17:08:29 [Christine]
Ianh: send publicty please
17:08:51 [Zakim]
+Sandro
17:08:51 [alanr]
q?
17:08:53 [sandro]
sorry I'm late.....
17:09:40 [Christine]
Subtopic: LC Working Drafts
17:09:41 [Achille]
Achille has joined #owl
17:10:07 [pfps]
q+
17:10:12 [Christine]
Inah: minimise changes at this point
17:10:15 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:10:19 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
17:10:27 [bijan]
q+
17:10:36 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:10:45 [Achille]
zakim, IBM is me
17:10:45 [Zakim]
+Achille; got it
17:11:14 [alanr]
q?
17:11:23 [IanH]
q+
17:11:28 [alanr]
ack IanH
17:12:45 [IanH]
bijan: I wanted to make some changes to XML syntax
17:13:05 [IanH]
ian: do it off line and upload after LC period is over
17:13:06 [uli]
what about the tables?
17:13:49 [IanH]
alanr: accessibility audit?
17:14:00 [IanH]
bijan: will try to have it done before CR
17:14:38 [sandro]
I'm surprised an empty alt tag is preferable to a brief explanation (eg "UML diagram corresponding to grammar Foo")
17:14:56 [IanH]
alan: bijan will add an action for about 1 month out to do accessibility audit
17:15:27 [IanH]
bijan: alt tag provides replacement text; may not be needed
17:15:32 [bijan]
Action on: bijan to do accessibility audit in one month
17:15:32 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - on
17:15:35 [alanr]
q?
17:15:37 [sandro]
bijan: empty alt tags are, I think, the right thing when the diagrams provide no additional information.
17:15:41 [IanH]
alan: Bijan can report back in 1 month
17:15:50 [Christine]
Action: Bijan to about 1 month out to do accessibility audit
17:15:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-331 - About 1 month out to do accessibility audit [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-04-29].
17:16:09 [Christine]
Subtopic: First Public or Ordinary Working Drafts
17:16:12 [IanH]
alan: LC till 12 May; short period; tell people they need to comment ASAP
17:16:36 [alanr]
qrg, nf&r, primer, doc overvier, manch, datarange extension
17:16:57 [IanH]
alan: status reports on these docs
17:17:06 [Christine]
Alan: QRG ?
17:17:08 [Rinke]
NB: The Wiki frontpage needs to be updated with links to the correct versions of documents (it currently lists only the old WD's)
17:17:16 [pfps]
q+
17:17:22 [alanr]
q?
17:17:25 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:17:34 [IanH]
peter: QRG being pulled in several directions
17:17:54 [IanH]
... not sure I can see path forward
17:18:06 [bijan]
Common stuff rather than comprehensive
17:18:09 [IanH]
... recent changes going in wrong direction -- e.g., getting longer
17:18:11 [alanr]
q?
17:18:21 [Christine]
+q
17:18:27 [bijan]
I share a lot of pov with peter
17:18:35 [IanH]
Me too
17:18:48 [bijan]
I concur with Alan on reasonable layout possibility
17:18:59 [bijan]
q+ to say something on layout
17:19:03 [alanr]
q?
17:19:17 [alanr]
ack Christine
17:19:30 [IanH]
christine: what process will we use for QRG?
17:19:39 [IanH]
... many different suggestions/directions
17:19:39 [Christine]
Alanr: needs review
17:19:43 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:19:43 [Zakim]
bijan, you wanted to say something on layout
17:20:21 [IanH]
bijan: concerned that to achieve right layout may require substantive reworking of content
17:20:31 [IanH]
... at least in order to make CSS reasonable
17:20:54 [IanH]
... review of layout might be next thing to do
17:21:07 [uli]
peter, "as we TC"?
17:21:13 [baojie]
baojie has joined #owl
17:21:40 [pfps]
I'll review QRG
17:21:40 [IanH]
alan: let's have a quick review now -- Peter?
17:21:56 [IanH]
... drafts of layout may be useful
17:22:19 [IanH]
... perhaps using graffle(?) or some such
17:22:31 [IanH]
bijan: I would use CSS
17:22:38 [IanH]
... there are decent tools
17:23:04 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:23:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, uli (muted),
17:23:07 [Zakim]
... bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille
17:23:14 [bijan]
q+
17:23:24 [IanH]
alan: Peter, will you do a review?
17:23:28 [Zakim]
+baojie
17:23:28 [IanH]
peter: yes
17:23:41 [Christine]
Action: Peter review QRG
17:23:41 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Peter
17:23:41 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
17:24:05 [Christine]
Action: pfps quick review of QRG
17:24:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-332 - Quick review of QRG [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-04-29].
17:24:32 [IanH]
alan: Jie, any comments on QRG?
17:24:47 [pfps]
q+
17:24:48 [Christine]
Jie: will change table layout and links to othet docs
17:24:57 [sandro]
I'm torn by this new Link column --- I really like it for on-line usage, but it's a waste of space when printed.
17:25:05 [bijan]
display:none
17:25:11 [alanr]
q?
17:25:15 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:25:22 [sandro]
(So it falls into the camp, for me, of things to hide when printing. which Bijan had spoken against.)
17:25:25 [uli]
+1 to Sandro
17:26:25 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/
17:26:29 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide
17:26:44 [IanH]
bijan: wiki version very different from WD
17:26:44 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20081202/
17:26:57 [sandro]
bijan, that's the old one.
17:26:58 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:27:04 [bijan]
Ok! Thanks!
17:27:27 [bijan]
Sandro, so the main web page is wrong?
17:27:29 [uli]
+1 to discuss *where* we want the primer to go
17:27:50 [sandro]
No, Bijan, your point is still valid. The CSS seems totally different between the wiki and yeterday's publicaiton.
17:27:53 [uli]
q+
17:27:57 [bijan]
Yeah
17:27:58 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:27:58 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
17:27:59 [alanr]
ack uli
17:28:02 [Rinke]
But the main page is *also* wrong!
17:28:08 [bijan]
Yes :)
17:28:34 [Christine]
uli: should discuss the general directions not the details
17:28:52 [bijan]
I agree that we haven't changed our decision
17:29:01 [IanH]
q+
17:29:07 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:29:07 [Zakim]
uli was not muted, uli
17:29:12 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:29:12 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:29:26 [bijan]
I can't live with 4 pages
17:29:29 [alanr]
ack Ianh
17:29:34 [uli]
why could it be impossible to live with 2 pages?
17:29:48 [bijan]
4 pages would be a change in our decision
17:29:56 [sandro]
PROPOSED; We make QRG fit onto two pages.
17:30:58 [uli]
and we agree that the QRG doesn't need to be "complete"
17:31:01 [uli]
?
17:31:01 [bijan]
q+
17:31:09 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:31:25 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/
17:33:21 [Christine]
+q
17:33:31 [alanr]
ack Christine
17:33:40 [bijan]
I'm happy to subsume my follow up to christine's response as a review as long as that doesn't imply I've conceded on it
17:34:12 [Rinke]
I can review as well
17:34:12 [bijan]
q+
17:34:21 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:35:02 [Christine]
bijan: still disagrees appendix
17:35:05 [alanr]
q?
17:35:55 [Christine]
+q
17:36:09 [alanr]
ack Christine
17:37:33 [ewallace]
What?
17:37:34 [Christine]
+q
17:37:47 [alanr]
ack Christine
17:38:17 [IanH]
christine: why is much more work required for NF&R?
17:38:20 [bijan]
It's obviously false that NF&R is more work than all of the other documents
17:38:24 [bijan]
Easy to show
17:38:30 [alanr]
not necessary, bijan
17:38:38 [IanH]
... doesn't see need for multiple syntaxes
17:38:45 [bijan]
What's not necessary? Refuting falsehoods?
17:39:17 [ewallace]
Yes.
17:39:44 [Christine]
+q
17:39:48 [sandro]
I'm flipping through NF&R and only seeing FS.
17:39:56 [Christine]
no 2 syntaxes
17:40:07 [bijan]
I'm happy refuting or things being struck from the record. Neither seems bad.
17:40:32 [pfps]
Some LCC asked for multiple syntaxes throughout.
17:40:35 [alanr]
ack Christine
17:40:35 [sandro]
Ah..... Now I see some triples in an example.
17:40:35 [ewallace]
A couple of people asked for RDF/XML examples
17:41:08 [sandro]
eg the example in http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/#F4:_Self_Restriction does have RDF triples.
17:41:56 [bijan]
7th May is fine for me
17:42:04 [Christine]
+q
17:42:15 [alanr]
Ack christine
17:42:39 [IanH]
q+
17:42:43 [alanr]
ack IanH
17:43:02 [Rinke]
I repeat my offer to review NF&R
17:43:14 [Rinke]
by next week
17:43:19 [ewallace]
thanks Rinke
17:43:37 [Christine]
Action: Rinkr to review NF&R
17:43:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Rinkr
17:43:56 [Rinke]
Action: Rinke to review NF&R
17:43:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-333 - Review NF&R [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29].
17:43:57 [Christine]
Action: Rinke to review NF&R 7 MAy
17:43:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-334 - Review NF&R 7 MAy [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29].
17:44:56 [Christine]
* NF&R will have the record of number of reviews
17:46:33 [alanr]
q?
17:46:51 [Christine]
* we did at thesame time
17:46:53 [bijan]
q+
17:46:58 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:48:33 [Christine]
bijan: have time to work on the Primer (as editor)
17:49:38 [pfps]
just some typos to fix in DO
17:49:54 [Christine]
Ian : overview in good shape
17:50:15 [Christine]
... in LC shape
17:50:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:50:31 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:50:46 [Christine]
peter: Manchester syntax ready
17:51:11 [schneid]
schneid has joined #owl
17:52:04 [Zakim]
+??P21
17:52:10 [schneid]
zakim, ??P21 is me
17:52:10 [Zakim]
+schneid; got it
17:52:14 [schneid]
zakim, mute me
17:52:14 [Zakim]
schneid should now be muted
17:53:19 [uli]
schneid, and I thought that German trains would never get cancelled!
17:53:37 [alanr]
q?
17:54:00 [Christine]
Subtopic : Schedule going forward
17:54:13 [ewallace]
me/ is not sure we captured anything about Datarange extension doc status
17:54:17 [bijan]
q+ to ask about CR critieria
17:54:36 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:54:36 [Zakim]
bijan, you wanted to ask about CR critieria
17:55:21 [sandro]
q+
17:55:33 [msmith]
i.e., *some* test cases must precede CR
17:56:28 [alanr]
ack sandro
17:56:58 [bijan]
+1 to polish!
17:57:02 [bijan]
And to approving a slew
17:57:20 [bijan]
q+
17:57:34 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:57:42 [sandro]
sandro: Let's call the impractical tests "extra credit" like webont did.
17:57:51 [msmith]
q+
17:57:56 [alanr]
ack msmith
17:58:04 [schneid]
I think "Extra Credit" existed for some Full test cases, don't know about DL
17:58:40 [bijan]
q+
17:58:43 [schneid]
And I also think that it was very arbitrary what was extra credit and what not
17:58:57 [bijan]
q-
17:59:05 [IanH]
EC tests also existed for DL; e.g., very large sat problems
17:59:38 [bijan]
q+
17:59:48 [alanr]
ack biajn
17:59:55 [IanH]
q+
18:00:01 [IanH]
ack bijan
18:00:01 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:01:14 [alanr]
ack IanH
18:01:32 [bijan]
Yeah
18:02:09 [schneid]
One reasoner per test case? cool criterion ;-)
18:02:12 [sandro]
right -- every non-extra-credit test had to be passed by at least two reasoners.
18:03:05 [bmotik]
I don't think we need to discuss this on the call.
18:03:25 [bijan]
q+
18:04:25 [bmotik]
Can you summarize the issues?
18:05:41 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:05:42 [IanH]
q+
18:05:46 [alanr]
ack IanH
18:06:18 [IanH]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Responses_to_Last_Call_Comments
18:07:01 [Christine]
Ianh: has created a new section with new table for LC responses
18:09:06 [alanr]
PROPOSED close issue 56 with no action
18:09:07 [IanH]
+1
18:09:09 [pfps]
+1
18:09:11 [alanr]
+1
18:09:13 [ewallace]
+1
18:09:13 [Rinke]
+1
18:09:13 [schneid]
+1
18:09:16 [pfps]
+56 :-)
18:09:16 [sandro]
+1
18:09:19 [bcuencagrau]
+1
18:09:21 [MarkusK_]
+1
18:09:22 [Zhe]
+1
18:09:30 [alanr]
RESOLVED close issue 56 with no action
18:09:37 [bijan]
+1
18:09:47 [Christine]
Topic: Implementation and Test Cases
18:10:15 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
18:11:20 [msmith]
q+
18:11:32 [alanr]
ack msmith
18:11:33 [pfps]
+1 to adding to *this* table
18:12:11 [pfps]
the test results page is post-facto, the implementations page is for use now
18:12:22 [sandro]
q+
18:12:25 [alanr]
ack sandro
18:13:21 [bijan]
SHER is built on Pellet
18:13:31 [bijan]
So I don't know if it's really a separate implementation
18:13:34 [IanH]
q+
18:13:37 [bijan]
Though they have a custom EL reasoner
18:13:41 [IanH]
ack IanH
18:14:00 [bijan]
q+
18:15:13 [msmith]
+1 to no crap
18:15:23 [alanr]
q?
18:15:27 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:16:16 [alanr]
implementations listed in on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Implementations should be ones that say they will handle OWL 2
18:16:29 [sandro]
Maybe next to each implementation we can include a characterization of how much of the test suite it passes.
18:16:37 [sandro]
q+
18:16:49 [alanr]
ack sandro
18:17:16 [msmith]
or even just a link to the test results page
18:18:21 [bijan]
See uli's list o' reasoners: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/reasoners.html
18:19:22 [bijan]
q+
18:19:50 [MarkusK_]
Also see http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Category:Reasoner
18:20:55 [bijan]
If comprehensive means at least 1 test mentioning every feature I don't object. :)
18:21:25 [sandro]
*shrug*
18:21:28 [msmith]
q+ on this
18:21:34 [bijan]
q-
18:21:35 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:21:39 [alanr]
ack msmith
18:21:39 [Zakim]
msmith, you wanted to comment on this
18:22:23 [msmith]
I agree and we'll keep track of this
18:22:49 [msmith]
q+
18:22:52 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Suite_Status
18:22:55 [alanr]
ack msmith
18:23:16 [msmith]
http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out
18:24:41 [bijan]
q+
18:24:45 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:28:03 [msmith]
q+
18:28:23 [alanr]
ack msmith
18:28:49 [bijan]
And with RDF it's extra hard
18:28:54 [pfps]
Consider a FS to RDF translator that "shares tails". It would, in some sense, preserve meaning, but it is broken because it can't be reverse translated.
18:29:04 [bijan]
Or moves annotations around
18:29:55 [msmith]
Sounds good. Thanks.
18:29:55 [sandro]
I'm thinking some kind of round-trip, or a->b->b kind of testing....
18:30:07 [Zakim]
-msmith
18:30:08 [Rinke]
bye
18:30:08 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:30:08 [MarkusK_]
bye
18:30:08 [Zakim]
-bmotik
18:30:09 [uli]
bye
18:30:10 [Zakim]
-Sandro
18:30:12 [Zakim]
-MarkusK_
18:30:12 [uli]
uli has left #owl
18:30:13 [Zakim]
-alanr
18:30:13 [Zakim]
-Achille
18:30:14 [Zakim]
-baojie
18:30:15 [Zakim]
-Rinke
18:30:16 [Zakim]
-IanH
18:30:16 [bijan]
But you still need a criterion for sameness, sandro
18:30:19 [bijan]
THat's the challenge here
18:30:19 [Zakim]
-schneid
18:30:22 [Zakim]
- +3539149aaaa
18:30:23 [Zakim]
-Christine
18:30:24 [Zakim]
-bcuencagrau
18:30:26 [Zakim]
-bijan
18:30:29 [Zakim]
-uli
18:30:32 [Zakim]
-zimmer
18:30:33 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:30:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke, +3539149aaaa, bmotik, alanr, bcuencagrau, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, zimmer, uli, bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille, baojie,
18:30:37 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller], schneid
18:30:46 [alanr]
for the rdf mapping testing that a particular set of triples is produced, modulo bnode mapping
18:31:08 [alanr]
jena has an "isomorphic to" method.
18:31:12 [bijan]
For obnoxious little technical reasons (e.g., that cause roundtripping not to be guarunteed) it's obnoxious to write the test
18:31:20 [bijan]
Butyou can have some triple variation in some cases, yes?
18:31:29 [sandro]
character-by-character sameness, Bijan. That's not going to work with a->b->a, but it might with a->b1->a2->b2, where b1 and b2 have to be the same.
18:31:32 [bijan]
A proper test suite would have to allow for that
18:31:50 [bijan]
character by character doesn't work for XML even :)
18:32:08 [alanr]
on bnodes, and if in the case where there is explicit order, but structurally order doesn't matter
18:32:09 [bijan]
You could impost, maybe, a canonicalization step
18:32:20 [alanr]
I agree - test should propery test :)
18:32:35 [alanr]
s/propery/properly/
18:32:44 [bijan]
If there's non-determinism
18:33:03 [alanr]
I don't remember any in the rdf mapping other than the issue of list ordering I mention
18:33:11 [bijan]
Such that two different implementations could, at their discretion, produce different number of triples (for exmaple)
18:33:15 [alanr]
that's fs->rdf I'm talking about
18:33:21 [bijan]
then your test has to account for unionOf those answers
18:33:27 [alanr]
I don't know of any such
18:33:32 [bijan]
If not, then we don't need entailment but can use isomorphisic of the graphs
18:33:37 [bijan]
Or structural equivalence
18:33:48 [alanr]
we don
18:33:57 [alanr]
'we don't have tests for structural equivalence currently
18:34:08 [bijan]
WE don't need *tests* for st eq
18:34:09 [alanr]
and structural equiv isn't preserved in the rdf mapping
18:34:40 [bijan]
Then but you say RDF2FS2RDF=> same graph
18:35:11 [alanr]
not necessarily, because of list ordering
18:35:24 [alanr]
(at least)
18:35:31 [bijan]
Then add a list match to the isomorphism
18:35:35 [alanr]
right
18:35:41 [sandro]
I'd think translators should preserve list ordering, even though the OWL semantics don't care.
18:35:43 [bijan]
I.e., "compare rdf lists as bags"
18:36:06 [alanr]
sandro: would be nice, but not what the spec says
18:36:10 [sandro]
but that's a perfect test case (whether list ordering can be changed)
18:36:11 [bijan]
But it's that sort of thing that's needed, not logical equivalence testing (wich is far too weak)
18:36:46 [alanr]
my point about logical equivalence wasn't that it was great, but that it was something. We don't have anything yet, some something is better than nothing.
18:36:51 [sandro]
That's a shame (that the spec says list order can be changed). Ah well.
18:37:35 [alanr]
What appears worse is that it doesn't appear that you can count on the number of annotations in the structure being preserved in the fs->rdf->f2
18:37:37 [msmith]
it says set, not list
18:37:43 [bijan]
I disagree that it's something
18:37:50 [alanr]
s/f2/fs/
18:37:57 [alanr]
you would be wrong then :)
18:38:17 [alanr]
that's a hard argument to make :)
18:38:26 [sandro]
rofl
18:38:32 [bijan]
You could test for same number of bytes
18:38:34 [bijan]
That's a test
18:38:38 [bijan]
That's "something"
18:38:46 [msmith]
msmith has left #owl
18:38:54 [alanr]
not something that if it fails you know the mapping has failed
18:39:30 [alanr]
ok got to go - cheers (all in good spirit)
18:39:37 [bijan]
Ok, test for byte equality, that succeeds if your conversion succeeded
18:39:45 [bijan]
Similarly weak and pointless
18:39:53 [bijan]
And he's gone
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