06:31:28 RRSAgent has joined #svg 06:31:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-irc 06:31:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 06:31:32 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 06:31:32 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now 06:31:33 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 06:31:33 Date: 20 April 2009 06:31:52 GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started 06:31:59 +Doug_Schepers 06:32:59 +[IPcaller] 06:33:06 Zakim, [IP is me 06:33:06 +anthony; got it 06:33:56 +[IPcaller] 06:34:03 Zakim, [ is me 06:34:03 +ed_; got it 06:35:40 ChrisL has joined #svg 06:36:36 + +1.339.524.aaaa 06:36:44 heycam has joined #svg 06:36:56 zakim, +1 is me 06:36:56 +ChrisL; got it 06:44:53 +??P4 06:46:36 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0046.html 06:46:39 Chair: Cameron 06:46:43 Scribe: anthony 06:47:13 Topic: 1.2T list-of-string data type issue 06:47:15 Zakim, who is on the call? 06:47:15 On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed_, ChrisL, ??P4 06:47:23 http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.monash.edu.au 06:48:01 CM: Pointing out there's a problem with list-of-strings 06:48:41 Zakim, who is noisy? 06:48:41 I am sorry, ed_; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now 06:48:49 need to disallow spaces in strings 06:48:55 zakim, wakey wakey 06:48:55 I don't understand 'wakey wakey', ChrisL 06:49:07 zakim, who is noisy? 06:49:07 I am sorry, ChrisL; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now 06:49:44 CM: I have some overdue action in looking at this syntax 06:49:51 ... I can solve this at the same time 06:50:04 CL: Do you say any character minus the following? 06:50:13 ... for Unicode 06:50:24 ... I need to have a string that doesn't have commas? 06:50:34 ... is that what I wanted for colour profiles? 06:50:38 ED: I think so 06:50:39 SpacelessAndCommalessValues ::= [^, ]* 06:50:42 ... I'm not sure 06:50:44 that's valid EBNF afaik 06:50:47 cheers 06:50:50 ED: You probably want to escape those 06:51:00 DS: There are also certain values 06:51:08 ... because we don't control them 06:51:13 ... they have to be base separated 06:51:24 s/base/space/ 06:51:31 CL: We should probably disallow them 06:51:36 ... instead of allowing them 06:51:49 ... because if we move to separated lists, we don't what to end up with commas 06:51:54 ... in the middle of a string 06:52:06 DS: We were moving towards having commas 06:52:26 CL: For Tiny we should tighten it to disallow commas in the middle of a string 06:52:37 ... and we have semicolons? 06:52:46 ... maybe we should disallow those? 06:52:55 DS: I think they are already disallowed? 06:53:01 lists of lists 06:53:06 CL: I thought we had list of lists that used semicolons? 06:53:18 CM: List of points for a the animation attributes 06:53:48 CL: Any syntactic characters we shouldn't allow 06:53:54 ... maybe it's too much 06:54:19 CM: So I'll look at cleaning that up when I get to the action 06:54:54 ... The second part of the email asks about allow listing content types 06:55:14 CL: Some content types like video audio take the codec as the content type 06:55:32 ... so we do need to be able to separate them 06:55:36 DS: Like semicolon 06:56:30 CM: When writing these media types without parameters you could probably do it without spaces 06:56:42 DS: I think people are likely to put a space in 06:56:54 http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html WAVE and AVI Codec Registries 06:57:06 CM: I don't think it's likely we can put it all in one list type 06:57:13 DS: We should document these cases 06:57:17 AG: Wiki them 06:57:32 CM: So I'll look into that at the same time 06:57:40 CL: The examples in the RFC do include space 06:57:50 ... but after the semicolon in all the examples 06:58:04 CM: They might allow all sorts of things inside quotes 06:58:07 "Video codecs within the AVI Registry are identified by AVI Codec IDs. 06:58:07 The AVI Codec ID value is a FourCC encoding. A FourCC is 32-bits long 06:58:07 and represents a (case-sensitive) four-character (i.e., ASCII) code 06:58:07 value. These codecs may be referenced within the IANA namespace as 06:58:07 "video/vnd.avi; codec=XXX", where XXX represents a valid AVI Codec ID 06:58:08 (e.g., the WAVE Format ID of "SCRN" is referenced within the IANA 06:58:09 namespace by "video/vnd.avi; codec=SCRN"). 06:58:11 " 06:58:40 CL: I think that means it's for ASCII characters 06:58:42 ... those ones 06:59:30 CM: Ok, I'll reply to the email and tell Peter we will deal with it in due course 07:00:17 Topic: Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox 07:00:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html 07:00:41 CL: We should clearly test when the viewBox doesn't start with 0 0 07:00:48 ... I have done markers like this 07:00:54 ... which are centered on the origin 07:00:58 ... but you have set the clipping 07:01:06 ED: I discussed this with JWatt 07:01:16 ... and it's suppose to clip to View Port 07:01:31 ... Opera and FireFox are currently clipping to the viewBox 07:01:37 ... not the View Port 07:01:38 which is wrong 07:01:48 CM: So the difference being aspect ratio conversion 07:01:59 ED: The View Port is typically bigger than the viewBox 07:02:08 ... I did write up a couple of test cases 07:02:13 ... JWatt had one as well 07:02:22 ... I could try to convert that to the W3C template 07:02:25 ... and commit those 07:02:35 CL: We could duplicate the test and add his modification 07:02:50 CM: Is there any problem with just taking the test? 07:03:50 CL: He can't modify the test 07:04:05 ... we should keep paint-marker-01f 07:04:33 ... duplicate it and add changes 07:06:14 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax 07:06:44 Topic: 1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again) 07:06:52 DS: In CSS they have rules for spaces 07:06:54 CL: What they say in CSS that is if you don't quote multiple spaces it will collaps it 07:06:58 DS: Could we say that for our lists that if you want to have characters that are commas 07:07:01 ... colons or spaces you have to quote the string? 07:07:03 CM: You mean double quotes? 07:07:05 DS: Double or single 07:07:08 CM: Backslash 07:07:18 ... double quotes could be away around that 07:07:43 ... we could have a different type of list of strings that allows quotes around values 07:08:09 ... it might be that the more restrictive types for the URIs don't need the quotes 07:08:16 ... maybe that would be the extent of the lists 07:09:03 Topic: Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again) 07:10:15 ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge 07:10:15 Created ACTION-2519 - Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-04-27]. 07:12:23 SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword 07:12:28 Topic: SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword 07:12:51 CM: Don't know exactly what's being pointed out - because I haven't read it yet 07:12:56 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html 07:13:01 CL: If you look at that 07:13:04 ... and view source 07:13:48 ... has "" 07:14:04 ... The way around it is to remove the word mobile 07:14:39 ED: I think the script that generates the harness has two options 07:14:55 just remove the word "mobile" next time we regenerate the tests 07:15:09 CL: Next time we refresh it we will take the word out 07:17:08 ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated 07:17:08 Created ACTION-2520 - Reply to Helder's email saying that we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-04-27]. 07:17:24 Topic: SVG 1.1 Second Edition update 07:17:29 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/ 07:17:46 CL: The link doesn't have all the files needed 07:17:54 CM: Not all the chapters are being built yet 07:18:00 ... I wanted to point out 07:18:09 ... that I've updated the list of editors 07:18:16 ... the criteria I used was 07:18:53 ... include the former editors, people that have added errata text, and people that are editing the spec files 07:19:00 +[IPcaller] 07:19:44 ... Oliver has made an errata entry 07:20:06 ... so I thought that was a reasonable criteria for adding editors to the 1.1F 2nd spec 07:20:25 that's here: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/ 07:20:30 JW: I''m fine with being added 07:20:34 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html 07:20:36 CL: In the data types chapter 07:20:51 ... would you mind sorting that so the list of types are in alphabetical order 07:21:05 ... like they are in Tiny 1.2 07:21:20 AG: That should definitely be changed 07:22:32 ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical 07:22:32 Created ACTION-2521 - Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-04-27]. 07:22:34 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDataTypes isn't ordered 07:23:03 CM: What I've plan to do is once the rest of chapters are being generated properly 07:23:10 ... I'll do some diffs with the original 1.1F 07:23:19 ... and then we can start putting in the Errata 07:23:34 DS: So the thing that Chris is doing is changing the RNG or the Output? 07:23:51 CL: I'm changing the master types.html 07:24:01 DS: Just wanted to make sure changes wouldn't be overridden 07:24:21 CM: Perhaps I'll ping Oliver and see if cares about the editors list 07:25:34 Topic: ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference 07:25:38 ISSUE-2266? 07:25:38 ISSUE-2266 -- Correct Role Module Reference -- RAISED 07:25:38 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266 07:26:02 DS: Simply a typo 07:26:11 ... just needs to be changed 07:26:16 CL: Are you going to fix it then? 07:26:19 DS: I could do 07:26:31 ... do we need to issue an errata for this? 07:26:36 CL: I believe so 07:27:56 CM: Hearing no objections we should issue an errata 07:28:14 RESOLUTION: We will create an errata for ISSUE-2266 07:28:29 ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266 07:28:29 Created ACTION-2522 - Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266 [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-04-27]. 07:28:38 Topic: Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG Tiny 1.2 07:28:46 http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au 07:30:19 CM: Pointing out that in 1.1 there is some restriction in element order that doesn't exist in 1.2T 07:30:47 CL: Over time we thought it was good practice to have those things at the top 07:31:00 ... there is not practical draw back to having a description at the end for example 07:31:38 ... if we require it to be at the beginning then I think you'll find UAs will allow it to go anywhere 07:31:50 ED: I don't mind removing the restriction in the DTD 07:32:06 ... as long as the spec says it's better to put it at the top 07:32:22 DS: I think it's reasonable to tell people that as a practice 07:32:25 ... put it at the top 07:32:31 ... because it helps for readability 07:32:51 ... but doesn't effect the processing 07:33:03 ... do we say what happens if we have more than one title or description? 07:33:06 ED: Yes we do 07:33:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements 07:33:24 ED: [reads out part of spec] 07:33:47 JW: Could we strongly encourage that it should be the first child elements of the elements it's the title of? 07:34:08 CL: Why do you think it's good to have it at the top? 07:35:01 JW: When used as a tool tip. You have your target of the mouse over, you're basically looking up the all the elements of the parent to 07:35:06 ... find the title 07:35:27 CL: Some UAs might be impacted 07:36:01 ... they could construct a pointer to it when they see it, rather than do tree manipulation for every mouse over 07:36:29 CM: So if the title is not the first child then you definitely wont show the tool tip? 07:37:11 JW: There issues as some of it is implemented in Java script 07:37:22 ... and there would be problems changing it 07:38:17 CM: Would you want the text to say that if it's not the first child then the UA doesn't have to render it? 07:38:37 DS: We went in that direction in Tiny 1.2 07:39:19 CL: We started moving towards moving to have a tooltip element in Full 1.2 07:39:38 DS: Anthony suggested to have an attribute on title to indicate what the title did 07:40:10 s/attribute/role/ 07:41:33 DS: Can't remember if it was put in there as an example in the spec 07:43:18 close ACTION-2521 07:43:18 ACTION-2521 Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical closed 07:43:42 ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it 07:43:42 Created ACTION-2523 - Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27]. 07:43:57 [[In order to honor authorial intent, it is strongly recommended that when, and only when, the appropriate 'role' attribute value is present, user agents display the text content of the applicable 'title' and 'desc' elements in a highly visible manner supported by the user agent, such as in a tooltip or status bar, when the pointing device is hovered over the described element or elements, or when the described element is given focus (e.g., through keyboard or 07:44:07 ACTION-2523: and remove the restriction on child element order from the DTD 07:44:07 ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it notes added 07:45:58 CM: Something you might want to port back to 1.1? 07:46:04 DS: Seems relevant 07:46:12 ... but 1.1 doesn't have the role attribute 07:46:51 Topic: Allowable presentation attributes 07:46:57 http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au 07:47:38 CM: In Full 1.1 they are limited 07:48:02 CL: People argued that the DTD should be used to validate properties on an element 07:48:43 ... I think that any property should be able to placed on any element 07:48:52 DS: Was this fixed in 1.2T? 07:48:56 CL: Yes 07:49:26 DS: I would consider it to be a feature of a validator that which properties don't apply to the element 07:49:41 CL: To my mind that's not a validator but an optimiser 07:49:53 ... based what is actually there 07:50:01 ... separate for validation 07:50:06 ... it's an authoring tool 07:51:45 https://launchpad.net/scour 07:53:56 CM: Couple of questions about Tiny 07:54:49 ... I think at one point we were toying with the idea that display controlled how title was used 07:54:55 ... I'm not sure if it was because of that 07:55:05 ... the media properties were put on those 07:55:12 ... it doesn't seem very useful 07:55:27 CL: Yes, it doesn't seem very useful 07:55:34 CM: Could issue an errata 07:55:44 CL: I don't really have an opion 07:55:55 ... it doesn't really hurt, but at the same time it's not a good idea 07:56:55 CM: The next question I have is why are only media properties allowed on 07:57:07 ... Should we issue an errata? 07:57:18 i hadn't really twigged before that 'media' was all properties that don't conflict with smil "fill" 08:04:31 ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the questions in the email sent 08:04:31 Created ACTION-2524 - Create an errata to address the questions in the email sent [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27]. 08:06:45 http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html 08:15:28 -ed_ 08:15:30 -ChrisL 08:15:36 -??P4 08:15:48 -anthony 08:15:49 -Doug_Schepers 08:15:49 -[IPcaller] 08:15:50 GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended 08:15:51 Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], anthony, ed_, +1.339.524.aaaa, ChrisL 08:16:02 Zakim, bye 08:16:02 Zakim has left #svg 08:16:11 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:16:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html anthony 08:16:32 oops 08:16:37 guess I'm [IPcaller] then 08:25:14 ah, there you go 08:25:20 jwatt - what's your skype nick? 08:26:05 anthony: jonathanwatt 09:06:19 heycam has joined #svg 11:07:21 ed_work has joined #svg 11:15:00 ed_work has joined #svg 12:17:34 trackbot, close ACTION-2519 12:17:34 ACTION-2519 Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge closed