IRC log of svg on 2009-04-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:31:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-irc
06:31:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:31:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:31:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now
06:31:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:31:33 [trackbot]
Date: 20 April 2009
06:31:52 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
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+Doug_Schepers
06:32:59 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:33:06 [anthony]
Zakim, [IP is me
06:33:06 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:33:56 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:34:03 [ed_]
Zakim, [ is me
06:34:03 [Zakim]
+ed_; got it
06:35:40 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
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+ +1.339.524.aaaa
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heycam has joined #svg
06:36:56 [ChrisL]
zakim, +1 is me
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+ChrisL; got it
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+??P4
06:46:36 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0046.html
06:46:39 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
06:46:43 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:47:13 [anthony]
Topic: 1.2T list-of-string data type issue
06:47:15 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
06:47:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed_, ChrisL, ??P4
06:47:23 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.monash.edu.au
06:48:01 [anthony]
CM: Pointing out there's a problem with list-of-strings
06:48:41 [ed_]
Zakim, who is noisy?
06:48:41 [Zakim]
I am sorry, ed_; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
06:48:49 [ChrisL]
need to disallow spaces in strings
06:48:55 [ChrisL]
zakim, wakey wakey
06:48:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'wakey wakey', ChrisL
06:49:07 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is noisy?
06:49:07 [Zakim]
I am sorry, ChrisL; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
06:49:44 [anthony]
CM: I have some overdue action in looking at this syntax
06:49:51 [anthony]
... I can solve this at the same time
06:50:04 [anthony]
CL: Do you say any character minus the following?
06:50:13 [anthony]
... for Unicode
06:50:24 [anthony]
... I need to have a string that doesn't have commas?
06:50:34 [anthony]
... is that what I wanted for colour profiles?
06:50:38 [anthony]
ED: I think so
06:50:39 [heycam]
SpacelessAndCommalessValues ::= [^, ]*
06:50:42 [anthony]
... I'm not sure
06:50:44 [heycam]
that's valid EBNF afaik
06:50:47 [ChrisL]
cheers
06:50:50 [anthony]
ED: You probably want to escape those
06:51:00 [anthony]
DS: There are also certain values
06:51:08 [anthony]
... because we don't control them
06:51:13 [anthony]
... they have to be base separated
06:51:24 [anthony]
s/base/space/
06:51:31 [anthony]
CL: We should probably disallow them
06:51:36 [anthony]
... instead of allowing them
06:51:49 [anthony]
... because if we move to separated lists, we don't what to end up with commas
06:51:54 [anthony]
... in the middle of a string
06:52:06 [anthony]
DS: We were moving towards having commas
06:52:26 [anthony]
CL: For Tiny we should tighten it to disallow commas in the middle of a string
06:52:37 [anthony]
... and we have semicolons?
06:52:46 [anthony]
... maybe we should disallow those?
06:52:55 [anthony]
DS: I think they are already disallowed?
06:53:01 [ChrisL]
lists of lists
06:53:06 [anthony]
CL: I thought we had list of lists that used semicolons?
06:53:18 [anthony]
CM: List of points for a the animation attributes
06:53:48 [anthony]
CL: Any syntactic characters we shouldn't allow
06:53:54 [anthony]
... maybe it's too much
06:54:19 [anthony]
CM: So I'll look at cleaning that up when I get to the action
06:54:54 [anthony]
... The second part of the email asks about allow listing content types
06:55:14 [anthony]
CL: Some content types like video audio take the codec as the content type
06:55:32 [anthony]
... so we do need to be able to separate them
06:55:36 [anthony]
DS: Like semicolon
06:56:30 [anthony]
CM: When writing these media types without parameters you could probably do it without spaces
06:56:42 [anthony]
DS: I think people are likely to put a space in
06:56:54 [ChrisL]
http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html WAVE and AVI Codec Registries
06:57:06 [anthony]
CM: I don't think it's likely we can put it all in one list type
06:57:13 [anthony]
DS: We should document these cases
06:57:17 [anthony]
AG: Wiki them
06:57:32 [anthony]
CM: So I'll look into that at the same time
06:57:40 [anthony]
CL: The examples in the RFC do include space
06:57:50 [anthony]
... but after the semicolon in all the examples
06:58:04 [anthony]
CM: They might allow all sorts of things inside quotes
06:58:07 [ChrisL]
"Video codecs within the AVI Registry are identified by AVI Codec IDs.
06:58:07 [ChrisL]
The AVI Codec ID value is a FourCC encoding. A FourCC is 32-bits long
06:58:07 [ChrisL]
and represents a (case-sensitive) four-character (i.e., ASCII) code
06:58:07 [ChrisL]
value. These codecs may be referenced within the IANA namespace as
06:58:07 [ChrisL]
"video/vnd.avi; codec=XXX", where XXX represents a valid AVI Codec ID
06:58:08 [ChrisL]
(e.g., the WAVE Format ID of "SCRN" is referenced within the IANA
06:58:09 [ChrisL]
namespace by "video/vnd.avi; codec=SCRN").
06:58:11 [ChrisL]
"
06:58:40 [anthony]
CL: I think that means it's for ASCII characters
06:58:42 [anthony]
... those ones
06:59:30 [anthony]
CM: Ok, I'll reply to the email and tell Peter we will deal with it in due course
07:00:17 [anthony]
Topic: Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox
07:00:28 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html
07:00:41 [anthony]
CL: We should clearly test when the viewBox doesn't start with 0 0
07:00:48 [anthony]
... I have done markers like this
07:00:54 [anthony]
... which are centered on the origin
07:00:58 [anthony]
... but you have set the clipping
07:01:06 [anthony]
ED: I discussed this with JWatt
07:01:16 [anthony]
... and it's suppose to clip to View Port
07:01:31 [anthony]
... Opera and FireFox are currently clipping to the viewBox
07:01:37 [anthony]
... not the View Port
07:01:38 [ChrisL]
which is wrong
07:01:48 [anthony]
CM: So the difference being aspect ratio conversion
07:01:59 [anthony]
ED: The View Port is typically bigger than the viewBox
07:02:08 [anthony]
... I did write up a couple of test cases
07:02:13 [anthony]
... JWatt had one as well
07:02:22 [anthony]
... I could try to convert that to the W3C template
07:02:25 [anthony]
... and commit those
07:02:35 [anthony]
CL: We could duplicate the test and add his modification
07:02:50 [anthony]
CM: Is there any problem with just taking the test?
07:03:50 [anthony]
CL: He can't modify the test
07:04:05 [anthony]
... we should keep paint-marker-01f
07:04:33 [anthony]
... duplicate it and add changes
07:06:14 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax
07:06:44 [anthony]
Topic: 1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again)
07:06:52 [anthony]
DS: In CSS they have rules for spaces
07:06:54 [anthony]
CL: What they say in CSS that is if you don't quote multiple spaces it will collaps it
07:06:58 [anthony]
DS: Could we say that for our lists that if you want to have characters that are commas
07:07:01 [anthony]
... colons or spaces you have to quote the string?
07:07:03 [anthony]
CM: You mean double quotes?
07:07:05 [anthony]
DS: Double or single
07:07:08 [anthony]
CM: Backslash
07:07:18 [anthony]
... double quotes could be away around that
07:07:43 [anthony]
... we could have a different type of list of strings that allows quotes around values
07:08:09 [anthony]
... it might be that the more restrictive types for the URIs don't need the quotes
07:08:16 [anthony]
... maybe that would be the extent of the lists
07:09:03 [anthony]
Topic: Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again)
07:10:15 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge
07:10:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2519 - Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-04-27].
07:12:23 [anthony]
SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword
07:12:28 [anthony]
Topic: SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword
07:12:51 [anthony]
CM: Don't know exactly what's being pointed out - because I haven't read it yet
07:12:56 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html
07:13:01 [anthony]
CL: If you look at that
07:13:04 [anthony]
... and view source
07:13:48 [anthony]
... has "<meta name="keywords" content="W3C SVG 1.1 Test Suite testsuite mobile"/>"
07:14:04 [anthony]
... The way around it is to remove the word mobile
07:14:39 [anthony]
ED: I think the script that generates the harness has two options
07:14:55 [ChrisL]
just remove the word "mobile" next time we regenerate the tests
07:15:09 [anthony]
CL: Next time we refresh it we will take the word out
07:17:08 [anthony]
ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
07:17:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2520 - Reply to Helder's email saying that we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-04-27].
07:17:24 [anthony]
Topic: SVG 1.1 Second Edition update
07:17:29 [anthony]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
07:17:46 [anthony]
CL: The link doesn't have all the files needed
07:17:54 [anthony]
CM: Not all the chapters are being built yet
07:18:00 [anthony]
... I wanted to point out
07:18:09 [anthony]
... that I've updated the list of editors
07:18:16 [anthony]
... the criteria I used was
07:18:53 [anthony]
... include the former editors, people that have added errata text, and people that are editing the spec files
07:19:00 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
07:19:44 [anthony]
... Oliver has made an errata entry
07:20:06 [anthony]
... so I thought that was a reasonable criteria for adding editors to the 1.1F 2nd spec
07:20:25 [heycam]
that's here: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
07:20:30 [anthony]
JW: I''m fine with being added
07:20:34 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html
07:20:36 [anthony]
CL: In the data types chapter
07:20:51 [anthony]
... would you mind sorting that so the list of types are in alphabetical order
07:21:05 [anthony]
... like they are in Tiny 1.2
07:21:20 [anthony]
AG: That should definitely be changed
07:22:32 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical
07:22:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2521 - Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-04-27].
07:22:34 [heycam]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDataTypes isn't ordered
07:23:03 [anthony]
CM: What I've plan to do is once the rest of chapters are being generated properly
07:23:10 [anthony]
... I'll do some diffs with the original 1.1F
07:23:19 [anthony]
... and then we can start putting in the Errata
07:23:34 [anthony]
DS: So the thing that Chris is doing is changing the RNG or the Output?
07:23:51 [anthony]
CL: I'm changing the master types.html
07:24:01 [anthony]
DS: Just wanted to make sure changes wouldn't be overridden
07:24:21 [anthony]
CM: Perhaps I'll ping Oliver and see if cares about the editors list
07:25:34 [anthony]
Topic: ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference
07:25:38 [anthony]
ISSUE-2266?
07:25:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2266 -- Correct Role Module Reference -- RAISED
07:25:38 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266
07:26:02 [anthony]
DS: Simply a typo
07:26:11 [anthony]
... just needs to be changed
07:26:16 [anthony]
CL: Are you going to fix it then?
07:26:19 [anthony]
DS: I could do
07:26:31 [anthony]
... do we need to issue an errata for this?
07:26:36 [anthony]
CL: I believe so
07:27:56 [anthony]
CM: Hearing no objections we should issue an errata
07:28:14 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will create an errata for ISSUE-2266
07:28:29 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266
07:28:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2522 - Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266 [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-04-27].
07:28:38 [anthony]
Topic: Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG Tiny 1.2
07:28:46 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au
07:30:19 [anthony]
CM: Pointing out that in 1.1 there is some restriction in element order that doesn't exist in 1.2T
07:30:47 [anthony]
CL: Over time we thought it was good practice to have those things at the top
07:31:00 [anthony]
... there is not practical draw back to having a description at the end for example
07:31:38 [anthony]
... if we require it to be at the beginning then I think you'll find UAs will allow it to go anywhere
07:31:50 [anthony]
ED: I don't mind removing the restriction in the DTD
07:32:06 [anthony]
... as long as the spec says it's better to put it at the top
07:32:22 [anthony]
DS: I think it's reasonable to tell people that as a practice
07:32:25 [anthony]
... put it at the top
07:32:31 [anthony]
... because it helps for readability
07:32:51 [anthony]
... but doesn't effect the processing
07:33:03 [anthony]
... do we say what happens if we have more than one title or description?
07:33:06 [anthony]
ED: Yes we do
07:33:08 [ed_]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements
07:33:24 [anthony]
ED: [reads out part of spec]
07:33:47 [anthony]
JW: Could we strongly encourage that it should be the first child elements of the elements it's the title of?
07:34:08 [anthony]
CL: Why do you think it's good to have it at the top?
07:35:01 [anthony]
JW: When used as a tool tip. You have your target of the mouse over, you're basically looking up the all the elements of the parent to
07:35:06 [anthony]
... find the title
07:35:27 [anthony]
CL: Some UAs might be impacted
07:36:01 [anthony]
... they could construct a pointer to it when they see it, rather than do tree manipulation for every mouse over
07:36:29 [anthony]
CM: So if the title is not the first child then you definitely wont show the tool tip?
07:37:11 [anthony]
JW: There issues as some of it is implemented in Java script
07:37:22 [anthony]
... and there would be problems changing it
07:38:17 [anthony]
CM: Would you want the text to say that if it's not the first child then the UA doesn't have to render it?
07:38:37 [anthony]
DS: We went in that direction in Tiny 1.2
07:39:19 [anthony]
CL: We started moving towards moving to have a tooltip element in Full 1.2
07:39:38 [anthony]
DS: Anthony suggested to have an attribute on title to indicate what the title did
07:40:10 [anthony]
s/attribute/role/
07:41:33 [anthony]
DS: Can't remember if it was put in there as an example in the spec
07:43:18 [ChrisL]
close ACTION-2521
07:43:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-2521 Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical closed
07:43:42 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it
07:43:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2523 - Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].
07:43:57 [shepazu]
[[In order to honor authorial intent, it is strongly recommended that when, and only when, the appropriate 'role' attribute value is present, user agents display the text content of the applicable 'title' and 'desc' elements in a highly visible manner supported by the user agent, such as in a tooltip or status bar, when the pointing device is hovered over the described element or elements, or when the described element is given focus (e.g., through keyboard or
07:44:07 [heycam]
ACTION-2523: and remove the restriction on child element order from the DTD
07:44:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it notes added
07:45:58 [anthony]
CM: Something you might want to port back to 1.1?
07:46:04 [anthony]
DS: Seems relevant
07:46:12 [anthony]
... but 1.1 doesn't have the role attribute
07:46:51 [anthony]
Topic: Allowable presentation attributes
07:46:57 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au
07:47:38 [anthony]
CM: In Full 1.1 they are limited
07:48:02 [anthony]
CL: People argued that the DTD should be used to validate properties on an element
07:48:43 [anthony]
... I think that any property should be able to placed on any element
07:48:52 [anthony]
DS: Was this fixed in 1.2T?
07:48:56 [anthony]
CL: Yes
07:49:26 [anthony]
DS: I would consider it to be a feature of a validator that which properties don't apply to the element
07:49:41 [anthony]
CL: To my mind that's not a validator but an optimiser
07:49:53 [anthony]
... based what is actually there
07:50:01 [anthony]
... separate for validation
07:50:06 [anthony]
... it's an authoring tool
07:51:45 [shepazu]
https://launchpad.net/scour
07:53:56 [anthony]
CM: Couple of questions about Tiny
07:54:49 [anthony]
... I think at one point we were toying with the idea that display controlled how title was used
07:54:55 [anthony]
... I'm not sure if it was because of that
07:55:05 [anthony]
... the media properties were put on those
07:55:12 [anthony]
... it doesn't seem very useful
07:55:27 [anthony]
CL: Yes, it doesn't seem very useful
07:55:34 [anthony]
CM: Could issue an errata
07:55:44 [anthony]
CL: I don't really have an opion
07:55:55 [anthony]
... it doesn't really hurt, but at the same time it's not a good idea
07:56:55 [anthony]
CM: The next question I have is why are only media properties allowed on <image>
07:57:07 [anthony]
... Should we issue an errata?
07:57:18 [ChrisL]
i hadn't really twigged before that 'media' was all properties that don't conflict with smil "fill"
08:04:31 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the questions in the email sent
08:04:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2524 - Create an errata to address the questions in the email sent [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].
08:06:45 [shepazu]
http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html
08:15:28 [Zakim]
-ed_
08:15:30 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
08:15:36 [Zakim]
-??P4
08:15:48 [Zakim]
-anthony
08:15:49 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
08:15:49 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
08:15:50 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:15:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], anthony, ed_, +1.339.524.aaaa, ChrisL
08:16:02 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
08:16:02 [Zakim]
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08:16:11 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:16:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html anthony
08:16:32 [jwatt]
oops
08:16:37 [jwatt]
guess I'm [IPcaller] then
08:25:14 [anthony]
ah, there you go
08:25:20 [anthony]
jwatt - what's your skype nick?
08:26:05 [jwatt]
anthony: jonathanwatt
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12:17:34 [ed_work]
trackbot, close ACTION-2519
12:17:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-2519 Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge closed