IRC log of mediaann on 2009-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:24:54 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:25:03 [fsasaki]
meeting: mawg
07:25:06 [fsasaki]
chair: daniel
07:25:10 [fsasaki]
scribe: tbd
07:25:18 [fsasaki]
07:25:41 [shepazu]
trackbot, start telcon
07:25:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:25:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be MAWG
07:25:46 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MAWG()3:00AM scheduled to start 25 minutes ago
07:25:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Annotations Working Group Teleconference
07:25:47 [trackbot]
Date: 16 April 2009
07:29:28 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG()3:00AM has now started
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07:35:35 [Zakim]
07:36:26 [vrodrgue2]
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07:36:52 [vrodrgue2]
I am vroddon2 in skype
07:37:17 [Zakim]
07:38:17 [Zakim]
07:38:36 [Zakim]
07:38:38 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG()3:00AM has ended
07:38:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, Felix
07:39:10 [daniel]
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07:42:07 [daniel]
felix, can you hear our voices ?
07:42:16 [fsasaki]
very hard to hear
07:47:03 [shepazu]
XMP also has broad support on deployed devices
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like cameras, videocams, etc.
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07:58:34 [daniel]
canonical processes discussion proposed by Venonique
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08:07:59 [daniel]
dave is talking about some issues and questions on UC&Req document.
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scribe: wbailer
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dave: cross site scripting is an security issue for metadata access
08:11:08 [wbailer]
... mention that this is an issue, work on solution with other WGs
08:11:24 [wbailer]
dave: issue: are annotations timed or not?
08:12:21 [wbailer]
... applys to different type of metadata: content description, rights, etc.
08:12:54 [ruben]
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08:12:57 [wbailer]
... metadata global to media item might be sufficient to start, but time-dependent metadata needs to be considered
08:13:05 [daniel]
yeah, felix, the whether is very nice
08:13:08 [daniel]
08:13:16 [wbailer]
joakim: what is the media object? is a fragment a media object
08:13:32 [wbailer]
joakim: needs to be defined
08:14:08 [wbailer]
felix: this is an issue, do we need to solve it? could timed text approach be used for that
08:14:51 [wbailer]
dave: time reference should be supported in api
08:15:17 [wbailer]
joakim: doesn't media fragments solve that? uri describes fragment
08:15:27 [wbailer]
joakim: bring up question in joined section
08:15:30 [fsasaki]
felix: media fragments group mechanism might be helpful here
08:16:19 [wbailer]
dave: use case "Access via web client to metadata in heterogeneous formats"
08:16:42 [wbailer]
... to which collection do the queries refer to?
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08:18:09 [vmalais];%20charset=utf-8
08:19:13 [wbailer]
dave: specify what goes along the arrows in the diagram in section3
08:20:38 [wbailer]
ACTION: felix to clarify arrow + descriptions for the diagram in section 3 of UC & req dcouments
08:20:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-101 - Clarify arrow + descriptions for the diagram in section 3 of UC & req dcouments [on Felix Sasaki - due 2009-04-23].
08:22:21 [wbailer]
florian: uc 5.4 refers accessing the api from a search engine
08:23:45 [wbailer]
joakim: check if attributes mentioned in attributes are covered by properties in mapping table
08:24:25 [wbailer]
ACTION: veroniqueM to update canonical processes use cases
08:24:25 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - veroniqueM
08:24:53 [wbailer]
ACTION: vmalais to update canonical processes use cases
08:24:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-102 - Update canonical processes use cases [on Véronique Malaisé - due 2009-04-23].
08:26:04 [daniel]
coffee break
08:26:37 [daniel]
and get back to the MXM discussion...
09:00:13 [wbailer]
topic: mxm introduction
09:01:23 [wbailer]
wonsuk presents short overview of mpeg extensible middleware
09:01:59 [wbailer]
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09:04:39 [daniel]
resume the meeting with MXM introduction by Wonsuk
09:12:50 [vmalais]
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09:17:16 [wbailer]
wonsuk believes there is synergy between implementation of generic metadata engine in mxm and mawg
09:22:02 [wbailer]
joakim: define basic set of entities and their mappings to different formats
09:22:19 [wbailer]
... in future, further formats could be added
09:23:41 [wbailer]
... define basic set of entities
09:23:56 [wbailer]
veronique: from which formats to take definition of these entities
09:24:15 [wbailer]
joakim: entities are internal to ontology
09:26:13 [wbailer]
... few, generic entities should be sufficient
09:26:43 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: people will map to other formats - what to map to?
09:27:23 [wbailer]
florian: a defined reference is necessary
09:28:36 [wbailer]
florian: group and classify properties
09:29:27 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: how are entities from different formats related
09:29:34 [wbailer]
... define metamodel?
09:29:54 [wbailer]
ruben: define minimum set of core terms
09:30:16 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: went through this discussion => ebu core
09:31:28 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: europeana: reduce to 15 elements, then enriched
09:32:22 [wbailer]
veronique: start with core set, xmp also has core set going back to DC + enrichments
09:32:40 [wbailer]
ruben: ID3 is good example for basic metadata set
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09:33:28 [wbailer]
joakim: publish set of general entities, make people think in terms of these entities
09:34:28 [wbailer]
dave: we'd all like a metadata system with clear semantics, widely used
09:34:36 [wbailer]
... don't know how to get it
09:34:58 [wbailer]
veronique: enforcing a format is not possible, mapping is the only option
09:35:22 [wbailer]
florian: mapping always means loss of information
09:35:55 [wbailer]
victor: mapping using semantic technologies can provide richer mapping than other apporaches
09:36:23 [wbailer]
... if set of entities is published in w3c recommendation people might be encouraged to use it
09:36:46 [wbailer]
florian: problem is different semantics in enrichment of standards
09:37:15 [wbailer]
... build simple core ontology, can be extended to build complex annotation
09:38:13 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: kind of combination of dc and mpeg-7 reflects interest of people in wg, but not of interest
09:38:25 [fsasaki]
+1 to a simple set of properties
09:38:39 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: unthinkable combination
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09:40:08 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: we have even not agreed on which format to use for describing mappings
09:40:46 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: most search engines make search based on brute force
09:41:04 [wbailer]
veronique: there are swoogle type of search engines
09:41:25 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: even if there's an api for mapping different formats- will it be used
09:43:19 [wbailer]
joakim: assemble domain knowledge, not filter it
09:43:49 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: work would be simple if all formats would be described already in rdf
09:44:10 [wbailer]
joakim: thought that 1:1 mapping of properties makes work easier
09:44:41 [wbailer]
veronique: adding entities and their relations would mean defining another ontology
09:45:01 [wbailer]
joakim: grouping properties like in xmp
09:45:56 [wbailer]
florian: define ontology, provide browsing properties without the need to understand owl
09:46:30 [wbailer]
veronique: develop ontology for grouping, avoid define another metadata format
09:47:03 [wbailer]
dave: no reason to prefer certain format, define properties and mappings to existing formats
09:47:11 [wbailer]
... not really defining a new ontology
09:47:39 [wbailer]
... not saying that tags we are mapping to are equivalent
09:50:23 [wbailer]
veronique: do people agree to define basic set of terms?
09:50:37 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: set of basic terms or superset?
09:51:02 [wbailer]
dave: subset of what you reasonable want and expect to get
09:51:04 [fsasaki]
+1 to dave
09:51:28 [wbailer]
joakim: isn't that just dublinc core?
09:51:41 [wbailer]
veronqiue: is this really all we want?
09:51:56 [wbailer]
florian: in an image, one wants to annotate content
09:52:51 [wbailer]
ruben: doing better and more precise might be understand as just another ontology
09:53:48 [wbailer]
felix: what we're doing is developing dc for media
09:53:58 [wbailer]
... not bad to refer to dc
09:54:11 [wbailer]
... mappings to other formats not availble yet
09:54:45 [wbailer]
... lots of mappings available for dc elements in mapping table, getting thinner for other elements
09:55:04 [wbailer]
felix: concern that group is doing too much and progressing too slow
09:55:27 [wbailer]
... doing something simple for v1 and more complex for v2 might be a useful approach
09:56:03 [wbailer]
daniel: make first basic version, gather feedback and improve based on feedback
09:56:24 [wbailer]
daniel reminds of wg charter
09:56:50 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: in a simple approach, we define a list of terms (might be some as dc or xmp)
09:57:08 [wbailer]
... let's see if we agree on list of terms
09:57:32 [wbailer]
... define list of entities and mapping, including mapping dc and xmp to that list
09:57:46 [wbailer]
joakim: everyone agrees?
09:58:13 [wbailer]
no disagreement
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09:58:27 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: subclasses could be useful
09:58:38 [wbailer]
florian: would increase semantic expressiveness
09:59:25 [wbailer]
topic: review of mapping table
10:02:12 [wbailer]
joakim: level of conformance of implementations to be defined
10:02:41 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: implementation cannot mean change implementations
10:02:56 [wbailer]
joakim: have several levels of conformance?
10:03:22 [daniel]
implementation volunteering (in this room): Joakim, Wonsuk, Werner
10:04:04 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: api for mapping = conformance
10:04:47 [wbailer]
joakim: what about proprietary formats of service provideers
10:04:58 [wbailer]
10:05:52 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: format should not be used as data model
10:06:31 [wbailer]
joakim: there are specific formats in business domains
10:06:44 [wbailer]
... use this in generic deployment environment
10:07:16 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: boundaries between delivery channels are disappearing
10:07:44 [wbailer]
... don't want to reinvent how to describe broadcast content
10:08:55 [wbailer]
dave: if there is a recommendation of comment set, why would broadcasters not use it?
10:09:12 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: broadcasters would keep their formats and use mappings
10:09:51 [wbailer]
dave: if there's a recommendation for set of properties, they would try to conform (in their formats)
10:11:52 [wbailer]
florian: common set of entities is needed for querying across several formats
10:14:42 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: content provider would not implement for mapping
10:14:51 [wbailer]
veronique: at least not large providers
10:17:19 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: we should not reject any particular type of metadata
10:18:21 [wbailer]
... for the time being we have a restricted set of formats for which we have defined mappings
10:18:37 [wbailer]
... everyone should be able to map their format
10:19:29 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: restrictions may come from the way the api is writter
10:19:36 [wbailer]
10:20:02 [wbailer]
veronique: skos might not be sufficient for describing the mappings
10:21:49 [wbailer]
ruben: if the internal format is hidden to the user, why standardise the mappings?
10:22:04 [wbailer]
... api only is visible
10:22:25 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: like dc, this would mean publishing list of terms
10:22:47 [wbailer]
florian: why should mapping rules be standardised?
10:23:38 [wbailer]
ruben: mapping can be useful, but can be informative
10:24:06 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: mapping is mechanism to discover the set of entities
10:24:21 [wbailer]
... but mappings need not be normative
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10:25:19 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: simple list of properties is not incompatible with more complex ontology
10:25:54 [wbailer]
felix: simple approach is good
10:26:10 [wbailer]
... description of relation to other formats is very valuable
10:26:23 [wbailer]
... continue review of mappings
10:27:16 [wbailer]
veronique: would api be implementation of mappings?
10:27:54 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: is there need for an api?
10:28:16 [wbailer]
... if format in which to publish information is defined
10:28:42 [wbailer]
felix: api is useful for making mapping testable
10:30:00 [wbailer]
joakim: does that require solving data type issue of return values?
10:30:22 [wbailer]
felix, dave: not necessary for making testable assertions
10:31:10 [wonsuk]
10:31:46 [wbailer]
veronique: list of terms, when to define?
10:31:49 [wbailer]
joakim: now
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10:36:02 [wbailer]
joakim: column with names of entities will be added to mapping table
10:36:20 [wbailer]
... then review and agree on format reviews
10:37:23 [wbailer]
veronique: are mappings one way or bidirectional?
10:37:33 [wbailer]
dave: one way only
10:38:04 [wbailer]
victor: refine mappings, specify transitivity, conditions under which properties are equivalent, etc
10:38:14 [wbailer]
... precising the relationship further
10:38:43 [wbailer]
... cardinalities
10:39:03 [wbailer]
.. priorities in case of several mappings
10:39:30 [wbailer]
joakim: refining further would be necessary for supporting setting scenario
10:39:50 [wbailer]
dave: setting raises problem of value ranges of different formats
10:40:30 [wbailer]
joakim: future version of mapping table with refined semantics
10:44:26 [wbailer]
dave: choose terms that can be read from many formats
10:44:49 [wbailer]
jean-pierre: there might be terms that are useful but not (yet) widely supported
10:45:51 [wbailer]
rrsagent, make logs public
10:45:59 [wbailer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:45:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wbailer
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\me sais hi from Indianapolis
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13:26:49 [joakim]
hi we are back!
13:27:02 [joakim]
Wonsuk will scribe
13:27:35 [joakim]
Felix can you here us speak?
13:28:31 [dsinger]
the idea is that we take the spreadsheet and attempt to identify the top 12 or so attributes we believe should be in the 'common schema'
13:28:58 [dsinger]
we go around the table, each person names about 12 that they like, and we see where we are in agreement, and haggle about the rest
13:29:03 [wonsuk]
topic: review mapping table
13:40:45 [fsasaki]
Felix: pasting mine into IRC: 10 dc:identifier, 6 dc:creator, 7 dc:date, 4 dc:contributor, 11 dc:language, 13 dc:rights, 16 dc:subject, 17 dc:title, 12 dc:publisher, 18 dc:type, 27 xmp:Rating, 82 xmp:videoFrameSize
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13:46:33 [wbailer]
thanks, Felix, Dave has entered your choice into his sheet
13:46:42 [fsasaki]
thank you
13:52:44 [wonsuk]
dave: added Support Level and Cumulative votes to the sheet
13:56:05 [wonsuk]
s/Support Level/Formats Supporting/
13:59:37 [wonsuk]
victor: dc:rights and xmpDM:copyright is different information
14:00:54 [wonsuk]
wbailer: difference btw dc:rights and xmpDM:copyright is not clear
14:04:11 [wonsuk]
wbailer: xmp:Identifier is better more identifier than dc:identifier
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14:10:08 [wonsuk]
scribe: wonsuk
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14:53:45 [wonsuk]
Dave: Added Initial Identification to wiki
14:53:52 [wonsuk]
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15:21:45 [dsinger]
we're tentatively scheduling, separately from fragments, for June 25-26 in Stockholm
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