IRC log of html-wg on 2009-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:09:23 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-html-wg-irc
16:09:24 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 1
16:09:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1, publication, closed
16:09:26 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:09:27 [Zakim]
2. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
16:09:29 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up item 2
16:09:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "review tracker" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:09:47 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:09:47 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:48 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:09:51 [anne]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:09:55 [ChrisWilson]
tracker: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
16:09:56 [pimpbot]
Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:19 [masinter]
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16:10:20 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:10:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, anne, Cynthia_Shelly, Mike
16:10:22 [anne]
scribe: anne
16:10:29 [anne]
chair: ChrisWilson
16:10:31 [MikeSmith]
trackbot, start meeting
16:10:32 [masinter]
zakim, call masinter
16:10:32 [Zakim]
I am sorry, masinter; I do not know a number for masinter
16:10:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:10:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be HTML
16:10:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:10:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:10:36 [trackbot]
Date: 16 April 2009
16:10:42 [anne]
Topic: Publication
16:10:51 [anne]
AvK: I was wondering about the status publication.
16:11:00 [anne]
RS: Now html5-diff is done I think we should ask MS.
16:11:03 [anne]
CW: Ok.
16:11:09 [ChrisWilson]
created an action-119 on mike to publish diffs and spec
16:11:51 [Zakim]
+Masinter
16:11:52 [anne]
MS: I think we can do it Tuesday
16:12:00 [anne]
CW: Great!
16:12:20 [masinter]
action-111?
16:12:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-111 -- Sam Ruby to work on process issues re: summary -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:12:20 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/111
16:12:21 [ChrisWilson]
reviewing tracker:
16:12:21 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-111 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:12:55 [anne]
Topic: Sam Ruby's actions
16:12:59 [Julian]
q+
16:13:04 [ChrisWilson]
ack j
16:13:10 [MikeSmith]
agenda?
16:13:15 [anne]
SR: for ACTION-111 and ACTION-99 there was little interest on the topics so I plan on closing them
16:13:30 [anne]
JR: I'm interested in the profile attribute. What kind of input are you looking for?
16:13:42 [ChrisWilson]
s/closing them/closing them if there's no interest within three weeks
16:14:03 [anne]
SR: Robert Sayre was supposed to writing text for this and that is three months ago now.
16:14:05 [MikeSmith]
agenda+ public-pfwg-comments list / facilitating ARIA comment submission/discussion
16:14:11 [masinter]
action-99?
16:14:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-99 -- Sam Ruby to review @profile -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:14:11 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/99
16:14:12 [anne]
SR: Losing hope that this works out.
16:14:13 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-99 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:14:21 [anne]
JR: Can I write spec text?
16:14:25 [anne]
SR: Not sure if that's sufficient.
16:14:41 [rubys]
s/is three/is approaching three/
16:14:41 [anne]
SR: Though if there's hope we can get consensus on that, sure
16:15:01 [anne]
LM: The action items are very informative
16:15:15 [anne]
SR: There's extensive discussion on the mailing list
16:15:21 [anne]
LM: I guess those aren't linked
16:15:37 [anne]
SR: We're missing sufficient interest
16:16:01 [anne]
LM: I'm not sure it's clear to everyone that that's the critical path
16:16:04 [anne]
SR: I'll make it clear
16:16:08 [anne]
LM: That's great then
16:16:15 [anne]
CW: I'm fine with that; move on?
16:16:18 [anne]
SR: Ok
16:16:24 [ChrisWilson]
action-103?
16:16:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:16:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
16:16:26 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:16:29 [Julian]
q+
16:16:30 [masinter]
there's lots of interest in the features, need to be clear to the people that are interested in the feature that this is the criticla path
16:16:34 [ChrisWilson]
ack j
16:16:53 [masinter]
julian: there has not been a new draft submitted yet
16:16:54 [anne]
Topic: about URL scheme
16:17:00 [anne]
JR: no draft has been submitted
16:17:09 [anne]
CW: I believe LH was travelling and just got back
16:17:15 [anne]
CW: I'll ping him
16:17:16 [Julian]
s/no draft/no new draft/
16:17:44 [masinter]
action-105?
16:17:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:17:45 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
16:17:46 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:17:55 [anne]
Julian, they coordinate
16:18:06 [anne]
Topic: XHTML2 + HTML
16:18:19 [anne]
SR: I think the ball is in the court of Steven Pemberton and co
16:18:30 [anne]
SR: So I'm pushing this back a couple of weeks
16:18:32 [masinter]
again, emails discussing this action are not linked from action, is this a tracker problem?
16:18:33 [anne]
CW: Ok
16:18:44 [ChrisWilson]
action-108
16:18:46 [ChrisWilson]
action-108?
16:18:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-108 -- Larry Masinter to report back on the TAG's work on versioning wrt HTML -- due 2009-04-16 -- OPEN
16:18:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/108
16:18:47 [anne]
masinter, are there emails?
16:18:50 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-108 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:18:55 [anne]
Topic: TAG work on versioning
16:19:07 [anne]
LM: topic scheduled for the next meeting
16:19:15 [ChrisWilson]
action-105 +1week
16:19:25 [anne]
LM: any thoughts on what the TAG could do that would be useful?
16:20:18 [anne]
LM: the current draft from the TAG regarding a general framework might not always apply cleanly to HTML
16:20:31 [anne]
CW: I would like to understand what the TAG thinks, what they'd recommend
16:20:36 [anne]
CW: for versioning in HTML
16:20:43 [anne]
LM: specifically?
16:21:00 [anne]
CW: Right now I feel like there's a lot of discussion regarding versioning and patterns around versioning
16:21:16 [anne]
CW: there's probably a feeling that the patterns don't necessarily apply to HTML
16:21:20 [masinter]
This is the topic for the next TAG call today
16:21:26 [anne]
CW: wanting to have one HTML; those two things are in conflict
16:21:35 [anne]
CW: I believe that versioning is a really good thing in any language
16:21:44 [anne]
CW: that's not a general consensus here, certainly
16:21:52 [anne]
LM: what qualities of versioning do you think is missing?
16:22:01 [anne]
LM: what is that you don't have that you want?
16:22:11 [anne]
LM: need more elaboration of the problem
16:22:30 [anne]
CW: I want it to be clear that when I answer that question the "you" is Chris Wilson and not the HTML WG
16:23:04 [anne]
CW: the general problem with how we define HTML today; if HTML5 becomes a Rec and we realize we did something poorly we will cause rampant compatibility problems if we change implementations
16:23:39 [anne]
CW: there are a whole bunch of versioning mechanism that will address that but also cause their own problems
16:24:09 [anne]
CW: e.g. create a whole new element or feature
16:24:38 [masinter]
I think the general idea of 'versioning' is that you include some indicator of version in the current language that will allow current processors to deal appropriately with future languages and recognize that they don't understand or can process appropriately this future content. The main thing is to categorize or predict the kinds of future content that current implementations should avoid or react to in some appropriate way. What are
16:24:38 [masinter]
those categories?
16:24:40 [anne]
CW: or specify very specific versions e.g. 5.0.3
16:24:58 [anne]
CW: somewhere in between would work
16:25:18 [ChrisWilson]
^ "somewhere in that spectrum will be our solution"
16:25:25 [anne]
sorry
16:25:38 [anne]
s/somewhere in between would work/somewhere in that spectrum will be our solution/
16:25:56 [anne]
LM: The difficult thing is figuring out what changes we want to allow for.
16:26:23 [anne]
LM: E.g. we indicate the current version in the document and current and future implementations will react differently to that somehow
16:26:52 [masinter]
giving you a flavor of the general approach, and hoping to use HTML versioning as a good example
16:27:01 [anne]
CW: Having the TAG consider the whole spectrum of strategies and providing feedback on what would be best would be good
16:27:36 [anne]
LM: What's versioning anyway? Provide a indicator of the version in the document and future implementations will react to that in a certain way.
16:28:03 [anne]
LM: Some extensions might require plug-ins, some might not require browser implementations at all.
16:28:20 [anne]
CW: I'm happy to listen to other people
16:28:23 [masinter]
Using Raman's deconstruction of features as "platform features" vs "language features"
16:28:50 [anne]
CW: I think the idea of not having a version is the idea that HTML is lasting platform
16:29:07 [masinter]
Version indicators in HTML have included DOCTYPE, namespaces, adding new elements, attributes, new APIs, Javascript indicators of versions, MIME types, ....
16:29:15 [anne]
CW: The idea of writing HTML in 2035 and having it still be usable in implementations of 2020
16:29:22 [anne]
CW: I don't think that will work
16:29:24 [masinter]
are there more kind of 'version indicators' or things that current processors can recognize?
16:30:04 [anne]
CW: I meant that the other way around
16:30:24 [masinter]
content written at time X should be usable in browsers built at X+Y, and also the converse
16:30:35 [anne]
CW: I.e. writing content in 2020 still being usable in 2035 without having to implement lots of versions of HTML
16:30:48 [anne]
CW: I think that's the goal of some people however I'm sceptical that it's going to work
16:31:08 [anne]
CW: However large and smart the group is I don't think they can foresee all implications
16:31:17 [jgraham]
Content written in 1995 still works in 2009
16:32:01 [anne]
LM: [...] that older readers can still read from newer writers in some way
16:32:14 [anne]
LM: i.e. current readers deal with future content; that's hard
16:32:27 [anne]
LM: the other way, future readers can read current content
16:32:50 [anne]
AvK: why is that needed? content from 95 still works in 2009?
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16:33:13 [anne]
LM: that's because you have doctype switching
16:33:23 [anne]
AvK: ok, that's from 99, since then we haven't done anything like that
16:34:34 [anne]
AvK: I would find it interesting if the TAG looked at this from a historical perspective rather than a framework perspective. E.g. look at CSS and HTML in more detail
16:35:43 [anne]
CW: in 2005 we were still able to play with doctype switching
16:35:46 [masinter]
standards mode vs. quirks mode history is really useful
16:35:57 [anne]
CW: in 2006 we switched things and got more issues
16:36:06 [masinter]
is this written up somewhere? this is really useful
16:36:21 [anne]
CW: we get the same ability to switch things based on HTML5 nodes
16:36:34 [anne]
masinter, http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ has info on DOCTYPE switching
16:36:35 [pimpbot]
Title: Activating Browser Modes with Doctype (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
16:37:18 [anne]
AvK: fyi: IE is quite different from all other browsers here. In other browsers quirks mode is just a fixed amount of differences
16:37:49 [ChrisWilson]
agreed: IE has a higher bar for compatibility version-over-version than other browsers.
16:37:55 [masinter]
thanks, this is very helpful
16:38:05 [anne]
CW: do you feel you have enough to go on?
16:38:16 [anne]
LM: we have an agenda but I wanted to explicitly ask this group
16:38:33 [anne]
LM: it's important that the TAG does things that are useful for the W3C WGs; not sure that's always been the history
16:38:46 [anne]
SR: do we have a new date?
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16:38:52 [anne]
CW: I assume next week
16:38:56 [anne]
LM: I can report next week
16:39:06 [anne]
CW: ok
16:39:23 [anne]
LM: I see this as an ongoing conversation
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16:40:03 [ChrisWilson]
action-114?
16:40:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-114 -- Cynthia Shelly to report progress on ARIA TF -- due 2009-04-16 -- OPEN
16:40:03 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/114
16:40:05 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-114 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:40:08 [anne]
Topic: ARIA TF
16:40:46 [anne]
CS: Meeting two weeks; next one tomorrow; making slow progress. People are making progress on the various action items.
16:41:02 [anne]
CS: Waiting for someone from Opera and Apple. Pretty sure about Opera, less confident about Apple.
16:41:17 [anne]
CS: Maybe push this report of three weeks so I can report after the meeting?
16:41:19 [anne]
CW: ok
16:41:25 [ChrisWilson]
action-115
16:41:28 [ChrisWilson]
action-115?
16:41:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-115 -- Michael(tm) Smith to set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 -- due 2009-04-16 -- OPEN
16:41:28 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/115
16:41:30 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-115 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:41:46 [anne]
Topic: TPAC 2009 WBS form
16:41:49 [anne]
MS: still not done
16:42:09 [anne]
AvK: wasn't there a deadline?
16:42:11 [MikeSmith]
action-115 due tomorrow
16:42:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-115 Set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 due date now tomorrow
16:42:12 [anne]
MS: internal use
16:42:20 [anne]
CW: I replied weeks ago that we did want to have a meeting
16:42:28 [anne]
CW: was enough interest on the telcon back then
16:42:43 [anne]
CW: so we met that deadline
16:43:15 [ChrisWilson]
any other items?
16:43:26 [anne]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:43:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-html-wg-minutes.html anne
16:43:41 [Zakim]
-anne
16:44:16 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, take up agendum 3
16:44:16 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "public-pfwg-comments list / facilitating ARIA comment submission/discussion" taken up [from MikeSmith]
16:44:32 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close agendum 2
16:44:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2, review tracker, closed
16:44:33 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:44:34 [Zakim]
3. public-pfwg-comments list / facilitating ARIA comment submission/discussion [from MikeSmith]
16:53:59 [adele]
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16:56:23 [MikeSmith]
action: Michael(tm) to talk with Michael Cooper and PFWG about possibility of better facilitating comments on ARIA spec
16:56:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-120 - Talk with Michael Cooper and PFWG about possibility of better facilitating comments on ARIA spec [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-04-23].
16:56:57 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:56:58 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:56:58 [Zakim]
-Julian
16:56:59 [Zakim]
-ChrisWilson
16:56:59 [Zakim]
-Sam
16:57:01 [Zakim]
-Masinter
16:57:01 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:57:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, anne, Cynthia_Shelly, Mike, Masinter
16:57:08 [ChrisWilson]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-html-wg-minutes.html ChrisWilson
16:57:09 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 16 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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planet: Couches in Browsers <11http://www.toolness.com/wp/?p=580>
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