IRC log of ws-ra on 2009-04-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:26:51 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:26:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:26:53 [Zakim]
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19:26:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:26:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
19:26:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:26:56 [trackbot]
Date: 14 April 2009
19:27:16 [Zakim]
WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
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+ +20756aaaa
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- +20756aaaa
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WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
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Attendees were +20756aaaa
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WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
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+ +1.919.349.aaaa
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19:29:31 [Bob]
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+ +1.408.970.aabb
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+ +1.703.860.aacc
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+ +0759029aadd
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+ +1.408.642.aaee
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+ +25669aaff
19:32:29 [Bob]
zakim, aaff is katy
19:32:29 [Zakim]
+katy; got it
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19:33:21 [DaveS]
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19:33:33 [DaveS]
dave S here
19:33:44 [Zakim]
19:35:47 [Bob]
19:37:24 [Bob]
scribenick: li
19:37:47 [li]
TOPIC: approval of agenda
19:38:27 [marklittle]
do the dogs get a vote ;-) ?
19:38:41 [marklittle]
19:39:15 [li]
no objection to agenda
19:39:28 [li]
TOPIC: approval of minutes
19:39:55 [li]
no objection to minutes
19:40:27 [li]
bob: no new issues at this point
19:41:34 [li]
bob: please review fpwd of 5 specs in 1 week and publish comments to mailing list
19:42:38 [li]
TOPIC: discuss use of wiki for proposal refinement and primers
19:43:02 [li]
TOPIC: making progress
19:44:13 [li]
bob: this group is contentious and not moving toward concensus
19:44:54 [li]
bob: hope to work in more friendly fashion
19:45:17 [li]
TOPIC: issues & proposals
19:45:59 [li]
geoff: ok with ram's proposal
19:46:03 [Bob]
19:46:18 [Bob]
Topic: 6730
19:47:08 [li]
6730 accepted with no objection
19:47:54 [li]
TOPIC: 6594
19:48:00 [Geoff]
19:48:10 [Bob]
19:48:48 [Bob]
ack geoff
19:49:13 [li]
geoff: 6594 and others are joined together
19:49:43 [Bob]
ai: Geoff to prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673
19:50:08 [Bob]
ACTION: Geoff to prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673
19:50:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-57 - Prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673 [on Geoff Bullen - due 2009-04-21].
19:50:36 [li]
dug: 6594 are related to others
19:50:49 [Bob]
last AI is due before next call
19:51:02 [asir]
19:51:14 [li]
dug: 6594, 6672, and 6673 are somewhat different
19:51:32 [DaveS]
19:51:45 [Bob]
ack asir
19:51:45 [asir]
19:51:58 [Bob]
ack dave
19:52:24 [li]
daves: 6594 3rd comment links three proposal already
19:53:29 [li]
daves: dug already finish them
19:53:36 [Bob]
email at
19:54:20 [Bob]
19:55:22 [li]
geoff: looked the joint proposal and to provide more comments by next week
19:57:07 [li]
19:58:13 [li]
geoff: raised issues and katy responded them, need to look them
19:59:11 [li]
geoff: request clarifications from katy
19:59:43 [li]
katy: explain the reponses
20:01:49 [li]
katy: merge part of rt into t (only fragment feature)
20:02:49 [li]
AI: bob to retitle the proposal to "move fragment from rt to t"
20:02:55 [wu]
20:03:20 [Bob]
ack wu
20:03:25 [li]
wu: like to see the concrete proposal
20:04:17 [Geoff]
20:04:18 [li]
katy: the proposal is already available from the issue
20:04:19 [Yves]
fragments in T seems to not be the ideal place. (like URI fragments are not in HTTP)
20:04:45 [DaveS]
20:04:57 [Bob]
ack geoff
20:06:32 [li]
geoff: is this merge confusion? we need to discuss this decision: why only part of it instead of all?
20:06:52 [Bob]
ack dave
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20:07:46 [Zakim]
- +1.408.642.aaee
20:08:09 [li]
daves: basic fragment vs. complex fragment, take basic fragment into T, which is clear
20:08:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.642.aagg
20:08:40 [li]
bob: difference between ws-rt fragment and ws-man fragment
20:09:22 [li]
daves: not sure, but think ws-rt fragment addresses ws-man requirement
20:09:46 [li]
and grid community as well
20:10:01 [Geoff]
20:10:27 [li]
dug: too much to move all rt into t, take a phase based approach
20:10:58 [Bob]
ack geoff
20:11:04 [li]
dug: only frag id in difference places
20:11:33 [Katy]
20:11:34 [Yves]
how about creating a ws-frag spec? (if you want to extract it from RT)
20:12:03 [li]
geoff: still not sure if the use cases can be solved separately by two specs, instead of using the merged one
20:12:29 [Bob]
ack katy
20:12:37 [li]
geoff: use cases can't be solved by rt alone?
20:12:49 [Geoff]
20:13:35 [li]
katy: single spec (merged) will cover all cases, except a few, which can be addressed by extending merge t
20:14:49 [Geoff]
that would be fine by us
20:15:09 [li]
yves: separating fragment is more reusable for ws-man and grid
20:15:38 [li]
katy: fragment is not in the core of t, but in a appendix
20:16:02 [wu]
20:16:13 [Bob]
ack geoff
20:16:24 [li]
daves: fragment is separated in the appendix
20:16:51 [li]
geoff: don't think appendix is a good idea
20:17:48 [li]
geoff: many usages of t don't need fragment, 80% don't need, 20% may need it
20:17:49 [Bob]
ack wu
20:18:50 [li]
wu: yves's idea is good, making it its own standard is more valuable than appendix
20:19:46 [li]
dug: if fragment not in t, it may result ad-hoc solution
20:20:08 [asir]
too much noise on the line
20:21:28 [li]
jeffM: our goal is not just to make ws-man work, but to make ws-* work
20:22:08 [li]
jeffM: we need to make decision on our goal
20:22:48 [Geoff]
20:23:00 [li]
jeffM: packaging is not that important, but operations are
20:23:29 [Yves]
fragment is relative to a resource, so it fits better alog the EPR definition, but editing ws-addr-core is close to impossible now, otherwise I agree that the content is what matters
20:23:30 [Bob]
ack geo
20:23:59 [DaveS]
20:24:12 [Katy]
20:24:16 [li]
geoff: basic functions in base class, more functions in subclass, not sure why changing this design decision
20:24:30 [Katy]
20:24:50 [Bob]
ack dave
20:25:41 [li]
daves: merging frag into t is to eliminate ad-hoc solutions to frag with t
20:26:38 [li]
daves: don't want ws-man to redo frag with t
20:26:43 [Geoff]
dave's thought is worth investigation...
20:26:44 [gpilz]
+1 to daves
20:26:54 [Katy]
+1 Dave
20:27:13 [li]
dug: frag in t is optional, what is the pain?
20:28:15 [li]
geoff: it's not completely optional, force people to reprofile ws-t in light of frag merge
20:28:25 [asir]
Doug - your phone is noisy
20:29:09 [li]
dug: we can make sure it's completely optional, people has to change ws-t anyway
20:29:40 [li]
geoff: changing namespace does not justify greater changes
20:30:17 [Zakim]
- +1.919.349.aaaa
20:30:23 [Ashok]
20:30:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.349.aahh
20:31:04 [asir]
There are such examples in W3C
20:31:11 [asir]
For instance SOAP Part 1 and Part 2
20:31:21 [li]
bob: daves' proposal is to make ws-t optional but normative
20:31:22 [asir]
Part 1 carries an ad for Part 2
20:32:18 [li]
bob: any objection to daves' direction?
20:32:20 [Ashok]
ack Ashok
20:33:09 [wu]
20:34:15 [Bob]
ack wu
20:34:18 [asir]
20:34:22 [li]
ashok: puting in appendix is better to avoid confusion
20:34:33 [Katy]
20:34:49 [li]
wu: 3 specs or 2 specs
20:35:05 [li]
bob: current proposal is 3
20:35:35 [li]
dug: changes to ws-t is necessary, like to see mroe detail
20:35:49 [Bob]
ack asir
20:36:51 [Katy]
My phone keeps breaking up - I need to drop off an re-dial
20:36:52 [li]
asir: frag in a separate doc means all about frag in one doc, not just appendix
20:36:57 [Zakim]
20:37:43 [Zakim]
20:37:50 [li]
asir: advertisement is ok but how to formulate the normative language
20:38:00 [asir]
We are okay with the precedents set by SOAP, WSDL and WS-A
20:38:02 [Katy]
20:38:11 [wu]
20:38:33 [li]
daves: ws-security may help us with the normative languages
20:39:00 [Katy]
Sorry - my phone breaking up again
20:39:06 [Katy]
will try to fix
20:39:21 [DaveS]
20:39:36 [li]
wu: if we can ask other standards using ws-t to make this connection, instead of link frag to ws-t
20:39:38 [Bob]
ack wu
20:39:45 [Bob]
ack dave
20:39:55 [Zakim]
- +1.703.860.aacc
20:40:09 [wu]
20:40:36 [Zakim]
20:40:43 [li]
daves: ws-man using ws-t may not aware frag if frag not in the appendix
20:41:02 [Bob]
ack wu
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20:41:30 [gpilz]
how can we tell WSMAN what do do?
20:41:39 [DaveS]
20:41:42 [Bob]
20:41:46 [asir2]
Gil - are you a member of WS-Man WG?
20:41:52 [gpilz]
yes I am
20:41:55 [li]
wu: ws-man can specify requirement for ws-t and frag
20:41:58 [Zakim]
+ +962.8.6.aaii
20:42:07 [asir2]
Gil .. you are a powerful voice!
20:42:21 [li]
wu: we should let users to decide which to use
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20:42:49 [gpilz]
asir: loud doesn't help
20:42:51 [asir]
20:42:52 [li]
daves: worry ws-man may choose other way, creating problems
20:43:15 [Bob]
ack katy
20:43:34 [gpilz]
20:44:08 [Bob]
ack bob
20:44:13 [li]
katy: separate specs looses the context of frag spec, we need to make contexts for both ws-t and frag clear
20:45:03 [Geoff]
+1 to Bob
20:45:04 [li]
bob: ws-addressing is a model we can use
20:45:57 [wu]
20:45:59 [li]
dug: having free choices is not good for ws-*
20:46:31 [li]
dug: we need to restrict composition choices
20:46:32 [Bob]
ack asir
20:46:36 [wu]
20:47:05 [li]
asir: ws-addressing and soap 1.2 are good models for multiple documents of one spec
20:47:52 [li]
asir: ws-ra can influence ws-man with good values
20:47:59 [Bob]
ack gpi
20:48:05 [li]
asir: we should respect other bodies choice
20:48:53 [li]
gil: ws-man may use ws-ra, but the schedule is up in the air
20:49:08 [DaveS]
20:49:24 [DaveS]
20:49:50 [Bob]
ack yves
20:49:56 [li]
gil: ws-man is just one case that may invent its own frag
20:50:57 [li]
yves: ws-t is related to frag, we need to make requirement of frag clearer
20:51:39 [li]
bob: more time to decide direction?
20:51:53 [asir]
20:52:11 [Yves]
s/ws-t is related to frag/thers is a link from frag to ws-t, not the opposite/
20:52:24 [gpilz]
+1 to doug
20:52:26 [Bob]
ack asir
20:52:54 [gpilz]
let's look at the changes to WS-T as stand-alone changes
20:53:00 [li]
dug: taking stepwise change to ws-t leading to merge
20:53:26 [Katy]
20:53:50 [li]
asir: refine requirements for frag
20:53:56 [Bob]
ack katy
20:55:18 [li]
katy: puting appendix on hold, but do changes on the core ws-t, is asir ok with this?
20:55:42 [li]
asir: we have issues on those changes too
20:56:28 [li]
katy: is it ok to incorporate dialect support, for example?
20:57:00 [li]
geoff: why dialect attribute is required?
20:57:23 [li]
katy: it provides a simple extension point to add frag and others
20:57:33 [asir]
20:58:02 [li]
dug: 6712 show dialect is more than ext point
20:58:17 [Bob]
ack asir
20:58:34 [li]
asir: ambiguity can be resolved without 6712
20:58:59 [li]
dug: element under <create> is ambiguous
20:59:28 [li]
asir: one->data, more->any particle
20:59:43 [asir]
and zero->null
21:00:07 [asir]
s/any particle/data, any particle/
21:00:24 [li]
bob: volunteers to discuss frag issue in wiki
21:00:42 [li]
geoff and katy volunteered
21:01:06 [Zakim]
21:01:08 [Zakim]
21:01:10 [Zakim]
21:01:15 [Zakim]
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21:01:19 [Zakim]
- +0759029aadd
21:01:21 [Zakim]
- +1.408.970.aabb
21:01:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
21:01:25 [Zakim]
21:01:28 [Zakim]
- +1.408.642.aagg
21:01:30 [li]
21:01:30 [Zakim]
21:01:50 [Bob]
Li, thanks for scribing
21:02:02 [Bob]
rrsagent, generate minutes
21:02:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Bob
21:02:03 [Zakim]
- +962.8.6.aaii
21:02:05 [Zakim]
- +1.919.349.aahh
21:02:06 [Zakim]
WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:02:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.919.349.aaaa, Mark_Little, [Microsoft], Bob_Freund, +1.408.970.aabb, +1.703.860.aacc, JeffM, Tom_Rutt, +0759029aadd, +1.408.642.aaee, +25669aaff, katy, Wu_Chou,
21:02:10 [Zakim]
... Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, +1.408.642.aagg, +1.919.349.aahh, +962.8.6.aaii
21:03:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
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