19:26:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
19:26:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-ws-ra-irc
19:26:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:26:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ws-ra
19:26:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:26:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
19:26:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:26:56 <trackbot> Date: 14 April 2009
19:27:16 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
19:27:24 <Zakim> + +20756aaaa
19:27:36 <Zakim> - +20756aaaa
19:27:37 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
19:27:37 <Zakim> Attendees were +20756aaaa
19:27:39 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
19:27:44 <Geoff> Geoff has joined #ws-ra
19:27:44 <Zakim> + +1.919.349.aaaa
19:28:03 <Zakim> +Mark_Little
19:28:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:28:54 <Zakim> +Bob_Freund
19:29:26 <TRutt> TRutt has joined #ws-ra
19:29:31 <Bob> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0084.html
19:29:42 <Zakim> + +1.408.970.aabb
19:30:48 <Sumeet> Sumeet has joined #ws-ra
19:30:52 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra
19:31:14 <Zakim> + +1.703.860.aacc
19:31:20 <Zakim> +JeffM
19:31:30 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
19:31:46 <Zakim> + +0759029aadd
19:31:57 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
19:32:08 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #ws-ra
19:32:14 <Zakim> + +25669aaff
19:32:29 <Bob> zakim, aaff is katy
19:32:29 <Zakim> +katy; got it
19:32:30 <Zakim> +Wu_Chou
19:32:45 <Katy> Katy has joined #ws-ra
19:33:05 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
19:33:10 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
19:33:21 <DaveS> DaveS has joined #ws-ra
19:33:33 <DaveS> dave S here
19:33:44 <Zakim> +Yves
19:35:47 <Bob> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Apr/0084.html
19:37:24 <Bob> scribenick: li
19:37:47 <li> TOPIC: approval of agenda
19:38:27 <marklittle> do the dogs get a vote ;-) ?
19:38:41 <marklittle> rofl
19:39:15 <li> no objection to agenda
19:39:28 <li> TOPIC: approval of minutes
19:39:55 <li> no objection to minutes
19:40:27 <li> bob: no new issues at this point
19:41:34 <li> bob: please review fpwd of 5 specs in 1 week and publish comments to mailing list
19:42:38 <li> TOPIC: discuss use of wiki for proposal refinement and primers
19:43:02 <li> TOPIC: making progress 
19:44:13 <li> bob: this group is contentious and not moving toward concensus
19:44:54 <li> bob: hope to work in more friendly fashion 
19:45:17 <li> TOPIC: issues & proposals
19:45:59 <li> geoff: ok with ram's proposal
19:46:03 <Bob> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6730
19:46:18 <Bob> Topic: 6730
19:47:08 <li> 6730 accepted with no objection
19:47:54 <li> TOPIC: 6594
19:48:00 <Geoff> q+
19:48:10 <Bob> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6594
19:48:48 <Bob> ack geoff
19:49:13 <li> geoff: 6594 and others are joined together
19:49:43 <Bob> ai: Geoff to prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673
19:50:08 <Bob> ACTION: Geoff to prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673
19:50:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Prepare new proposals for 6594, 6672, and 6673 [on Geoff Bullen - due 2009-04-21].
19:50:36 <li> dug: 6594 are related to others
19:50:49 <Bob> last AI is due before next call
19:51:02 <asir> q+
19:51:14 <li> dug: 6594, 6672, and 6673 are somewhat different
19:51:32 <DaveS> q+
19:51:45 <Bob> ack asir
19:51:45 <asir> q-
19:51:58 <Bob> ack dave
19:52:24 <li> daves: 6594 3rd comment links three proposal already
19:53:29 <li> daves: dug already finish them
19:53:36 <Bob> email at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Mar/0088.html
19:54:20 <Bob> q?
19:55:22 <li> geoff: looked the joint proposal and to provide more comments by next week
19:57:07 <li> TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6413 
19:58:13 <li> geoff: raised issues and katy responded them, need to look them 
19:59:11 <li> geoff: request clarifications from katy
19:59:43 <li> katy: explain the reponses
20:01:49 <li> katy: merge part of rt into t (only fragment feature)
20:02:49 <li> AI: bob to retitle the proposal to "move fragment from rt to t"
20:02:55 <wu> q+
20:03:20 <Bob> ack wu
20:03:25 <li> wu: like to see the concrete proposal
20:04:17 <Geoff> q+
20:04:18 <li> katy: the proposal is already available from the issue
20:04:19 <Yves> fragments in T seems to not be the ideal place. (like URI fragments are not in HTTP)
20:04:45 <DaveS> q+
20:04:57 <Bob> ack geoff
20:06:32 <li> geoff: is this merge confusion? we need to discuss this decision: why only part of it instead of all?
20:06:52 <Bob> ack dave
20:07:44 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
20:07:46 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
20:08:09 <li> daves: basic fragment vs. complex fragment, take basic fragment into T, which is clear
20:08:15 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aagg
20:08:40 <li> bob: difference between ws-rt fragment and ws-man fragment
20:09:22 <li> daves: not sure, but think ws-rt fragment addresses ws-man requirement
20:09:46 <li> and grid community as well
20:10:01 <Geoff> q+
20:10:27 <li> dug: too much to move all rt into t, take a phase based approach
20:10:58 <Bob> ack geoff
20:11:04 <li> dug: only frag id in difference places
20:11:33 <Katy> q+
20:11:34 <Yves> how about creating a ws-frag spec? (if you want to extract it from RT)
20:12:03 <li> geoff: still not sure if the use cases can be solved separately by two specs, instead of using the merged one
20:12:29 <Bob> ack katy
20:12:37 <li> geoff: use cases can't be solved by rt alone?
20:12:49 <Geoff> q+
20:13:35 <li> katy: single spec (merged) will cover all cases, except a few, which can be addressed by extending merge t
20:14:49 <Geoff> that would be fine by us
20:15:09 <li> yves: separating fragment is more reusable for ws-man and grid
20:15:38 <li> katy: fragment is not in the core of t, but in a appendix
20:16:02 <wu> q+
20:16:13 <Bob> ack geoff
20:16:24 <li> daves: fragment is separated in the appendix
20:16:51 <li> geoff: don't think appendix is a good idea
20:17:48 <li> geoff: many usages of t don't need fragment, 80% don't need, 20% may need it
20:17:49 <Bob> ack wu
20:18:50 <li> wu: yves's idea is good, making it its own standard is more valuable than appendix
20:19:46 <li> dug: if fragment not in t, it may result ad-hoc solution
20:20:08 <asir> too much noise on the line
20:21:28 <li> jeffM: our goal is not just to make ws-man work, but to make ws-* work
20:22:08 <li> jeffM: we need to make decision on our goal
20:22:48 <Geoff> q+
20:23:00 <li> jeffM: packaging is not that important, but operations are
20:23:29 <Yves> fragment is relative to a resource, so it fits better alog the EPR definition, but editing ws-addr-core is close to impossible now, otherwise I agree that the content is what matters
20:23:30 <Bob> ack geo
20:23:59 <DaveS> q+
20:24:12 <Katy> q+
20:24:16 <li> geoff: basic functions in base class, more functions in subclass, not sure why changing this design decision
20:24:30 <Katy> q-
20:24:50 <Bob> ack dave
20:25:41 <li> daves: merging frag into t is to eliminate ad-hoc solutions to frag with t
20:26:38 <li> daves: don't want ws-man to redo frag with t
20:26:43 <Geoff> dave's thought is worth investigation...
20:26:44 <gpilz> +1 to daves
20:26:54 <Katy> +1 Dave
20:27:13 <li> dug: frag in t is optional, what is the pain?
20:28:15 <li> geoff: it's not completely optional, force people to reprofile ws-t in light of frag merge
20:28:25 <asir> Doug - your phone is noisy
20:29:09 <li> dug: we can make sure it's completely optional, people has to change ws-t anyway
20:29:40 <li> geoff: changing namespace does not justify greater changes
20:30:17 <Zakim> - +1.919.349.aaaa
20:30:23 <Ashok> q+
20:30:42 <Zakim> + +1.919.349.aahh
20:31:04 <asir> There are such examples in W3C
20:31:11 <asir> For instance SOAP Part 1 and Part 2
20:31:21 <li> bob: daves' proposal is to make ws-t optional but normative
20:31:22 <asir> Part 1 carries an ad for Part 2
20:32:18 <li> bob: any objection to daves' direction?
20:32:20 <Ashok> ack Ashok
20:33:09 <wu> q+
20:34:15 <Bob> ack wu
20:34:18 <asir> q+
20:34:22 <li> ashok: puting in appendix is better to avoid confusion
20:34:33 <Katy> q+
20:34:49 <li> wu: 3 specs or 2 specs
20:35:05 <li> bob: current proposal is 3
20:35:35 <li> dug: changes to ws-t is necessary, like to see mroe detail
20:35:49 <Bob> ack asir
20:36:51 <Katy> My phone keeps breaking up - I need to drop off an re-dial
20:36:52 <li> asir: frag in a separate doc means all about frag in one doc, not just appendix 
20:36:57 <Zakim> -katy
20:37:43 <Zakim> +??P10
20:37:50 <li> asir: advertisement is ok but how to formulate the normative language
20:38:00 <asir> We are okay with the precedents set by SOAP, WSDL and WS-A
20:38:02 <Katy> q+
20:38:11 <wu> q+
20:38:33 <li> daves: ws-security may help us with the normative languages
20:39:00 <Katy> Sorry - my phone breaking up again 
20:39:06 <Katy> will try to fix
20:39:21 <DaveS> q+
20:39:36 <li> wu: if we can ask other standards using ws-t to make this connection, instead of link frag to ws-t
20:39:38 <Bob> ack wu
20:39:45 <Bob> ack dave
20:39:55 <Zakim> - +1.703.860.aacc
20:40:09 <wu> q+
20:40:36 <Zakim> -??P10
20:40:43 <li> daves: ws-man using ws-t may not aware frag if frag not in the appendix
20:41:02 <Bob> ack wu
20:41:19 <asir2> asir2 has joined #ws-ra
20:41:30 <gpilz> how can we tell WSMAN what do do?
20:41:39 <DaveS> +1
20:41:42 <Bob> q+
20:41:46 <asir2> Gil - are you a member of WS-Man WG?
20:41:52 <gpilz> yes I am
20:41:55 <li> wu: ws-man can specify requirement for ws-t and frag
20:41:58 <Zakim> + +962.8.6.aaii
20:42:07 <asir2> Gil .. you are a powerful voice!
20:42:21 <li> wu: we should let users to decide which to use
20:42:48 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra
20:42:49 <gpilz> asir: loud doesn't help
20:42:51 <asir> q+
20:42:52 <li> daves: worry ws-man may choose other way, creating problems
20:43:15 <Bob> ack katy
20:43:34 <gpilz> q+
20:44:08 <Bob> ack bob
20:44:13 <li> katy: separate specs looses the context of frag spec, we need to make contexts for both ws-t and frag clear
20:45:03 <Geoff> +1 to Bob
20:45:04 <li> bob: ws-addressing is a model we can use
20:45:57 <wu> q+
20:45:59 <li> dug: having free choices is not good for ws-* 
20:46:31 <li> dug: we need to restrict composition choices
20:46:32 <Bob> ack asir
20:46:36 <wu> q-
20:47:05 <li> asir: ws-addressing and soap 1.2 are good models for multiple documents of one spec
20:47:52 <li> asir: ws-ra can influence ws-man with good values
20:47:59 <Bob> ack gpi
20:48:05 <li> asir: we should respect other bodies choice
20:48:53 <li> gil: ws-man may use ws-ra, but the schedule is up in the air
20:49:08 <DaveS> q+
20:49:24 <DaveS> q-
20:49:50 <Bob> ack yves
20:49:56 <li> gil: ws-man is just one case that may invent its own frag
20:50:57 <li> yves: ws-t is related to frag, we need to make requirement of frag clearer
20:51:39 <li> bob: more time to decide direction?
20:51:53 <asir> q+
20:52:11 <Yves> s/ws-t is related to frag/thers is a link from frag to ws-t, not the opposite/
20:52:24 <gpilz> +1 to doug
20:52:26 <Bob> ack asir
20:52:54 <gpilz> let's look at the changes to WS-T as stand-alone changes
20:53:00 <li> dug: taking stepwise change to ws-t leading to merge
20:53:26 <Katy> +q
20:53:50 <li> asir: refine requirements for frag
20:53:56 <Bob> ack katy
20:55:18 <li> katy: puting appendix on hold, but do changes on the core ws-t, is asir ok with this?
20:55:42 <li> asir: we have issues on those changes too
20:56:28 <li> katy: is it ok to incorporate dialect support, for example?
20:57:00 <li> geoff: why dialect attribute is required?
20:57:23 <li> katy: it provides a simple extension point to add frag and others
20:57:33 <asir> q+
20:58:02 <li> dug: 6712 show dialect is more than ext point
20:58:17 <Bob> ack asir
20:58:34 <li> asir: ambiguity can be resolved without 6712
20:58:59 <li> dug: element under <create> is ambiguous
20:59:28 <li> asir: one->data, more->any particle
20:59:43 <asir> and zero->null
21:00:07 <asir> s/any particle/data, any particle/
21:00:24 <li> bob: volunteers to discuss frag issue in wiki
21:00:42 <li> geoff and katy volunteered
21:01:06 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
21:01:08 <Zakim> -Mark_Little
21:01:10 <Zakim> -JeffM
21:01:15 <Zakim> -Wu_Chou
21:01:17 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
21:01:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:01:19 <Zakim> - +0759029aadd
21:01:21 <Zakim> - +1.408.970.aabb
21:01:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-ws-ra-minutes.html Yves
21:01:25 <Zakim> -Yves
21:01:28 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aagg
21:01:30 <li> bye
21:01:30 <Zakim> -Bob_Freund
21:01:50 <Bob> Li, thanks for scribing
21:02:02 <Bob> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:02:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-ws-ra-minutes.html Bob
21:02:03 <Zakim> - +962.8.6.aaii
21:02:05 <Zakim> - +1.919.349.aahh
21:02:06 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:02:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.919.349.aaaa, Mark_Little, [Microsoft], Bob_Freund, +1.408.970.aabb, +1.703.860.aacc, JeffM, Tom_Rutt, +0759029aadd, +1.408.642.aaee, +25669aaff, katy, Wu_Chou,
21:02:10 <Zakim> ... Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, +1.408.642.aagg, +1.919.349.aahh, +962.8.6.aaii
21:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-ws-ra-minutes.html Yves
22:05:20 <gpilz> gpilz has left #ws-ra
22:54:48 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra