13:03:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:03:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-irc
13:03:44 <jar> z
13:03:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, this will be AWWSW
13:03:55 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM already started
13:04:03 <jar> can you hear me?
13:04:28 <Zakim> +TimBL
13:04:38 <mhausenblas> Meeting:   W3C AWWSW TF
13:04:55 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
13:05:20 <mhausenblas> Chair: Jonathan
13:05:30 <timbl_> timbl_ has joined #awwsw
13:06:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
13:06:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.643.aaaa, TimBL, +3539149aabb
13:06:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl_, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, jar286, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:06:47 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0002.html
13:07:23 <mhausenblas> Scribenick: mhausenblas
13:09:52 <timbl_> BA7059
13:10:05 <timbl_> sunday arriving around 21:00
13:11:05 <mhausenblas> Topic: Voc from Michael
13:11:06 <mhausenblas> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/
13:14:44 <timbl_> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont.n3
13:14:56 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
13:15:59 <jar> Tried to open ont.n3 in firefox with Tabulator loaded.  Not recognized.
13:16:39 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
13:16:41 <timbl_> ont.n3
13:17:56 <timbl_> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/rdf
13:18:00 <mhausenblas> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/n3
13:18:09 <timbl_> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/n3
13:21:50 <mhausenblas> is gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource ?
13:22:12 <jar> TimBL, if you asked a librarian "are you happy with this ontology" (genont)
13:22:20 <mhausenblas> the two ontlogies gen: and http-sem should be cross-referenced
13:22:32 <timbl_> F__R
13:22:36 <mhausenblas> RRBR
13:22:38 <mhausenblas> FRBR
13:22:54 <jar> Maybe they would say it wouldn't work in their world.
13:23:09 <jar> Maybe they wouldn't talk about the Bible at all.
13:23:43 <jar> ... Maybe they would only talk about it as published in a particular way.
13:24:22 <jar> TimBL: What I (TimBL) meant in the generic resources memo is obvious to me.
13:24:39 <timbl_> Yes
13:24:58 <jar> 'generic resource' is the same in the memo and in the ontology.
13:24:59 <timbl_>  gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource 
13:24:59 <mhausenblas> TRUE: gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource
13:26:25 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/jar-diagram-4.pdf
13:26:27 <jar> Thus http://rdfs.org/ns/node/22, 'generic resource', and genont:GenericResource are all the same.
13:27:30 <mhausenblas> yes, that's how I understood it
13:27:40 <jar> oops... page not found... I mean 'TimBLGenericResource' as seen at http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/html
13:27:48 <timbl_> s/temporal part/temporal version/
13:30:04 <jar> michael: Let's say "grounding" not "definition" because some people find "definition" to imply more rigor than we want to have
13:30:45 <mhausenblas> rather than has temporal part use XXX
13:30:49 <timbl_> I prefer "has temporal version" to "has temporal part"
13:31:04 <jar> TimBL quibbles with "has temporal part"
13:31:18 <timbl_> gen:timeSpecific i sthe relationship
13:31:24 <timbl_> if I understand it
13:31:37 <mhausenblas> +1 for has temporal version
13:31:46 <jar> ("temporal part" is from BFO I think)
13:32:54 <timbl_> It is clear to me that jar:hasTemporalPart owl:sameAs  gen:timeSpecific
13:33:02 <mhausenblas> http-sem:TimeInvariantResource owl:sameAs  onto-gen:TimeSpecificResource
13:33:19 <timbl_> s/it is clear/it seems/
13:33:35 <timbl_> yes
13:33:45 <jar> I'm looking for a relationship R that relates A to B where every rep of A is a rep of B, and at some time t every rep of A (at t) is a rep of B (at t), and A doesn't vary through time
13:33:56 <timbl_> agree with http-sem:TimeInvariantResource owl:sameAs  onto-gen:TimeSpecificResource
13:34:07 <jar> something like that anyhow.  
13:34:12 <jar> s/A (at t)/A/
13:34:37 <jar> OK
13:34:58 <jar> Top 2 boxes of diagram are aligned with terms in genont
13:36:36 <jar> R = genont:timeSpecific
13:37:25 <timbl_> Content-encoding
13:37:35 <timbl_> Comtent-type
13:37:55 <jar> TimBL is bothered because 'encoding' means something else to him
13:38:14 <timbl_> Please though remove the TIMBL "Fixed resource" from the jar diagram.
13:38:35 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
13:39:04 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:39:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:39:10 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
13:39:43 <jar> TimBL: 'rest representation' is not akin to 'fixed resource'
13:40:09 <jar> jar: But they're in 1-1 correspondence
13:40:39 <jar> TimBL: a fixed resource is something id'd by a URI, and is a snapshot of e.g. the persistence policy as of today
13:40:59 <jar> ... When you do fetch today, you'll get a given set of bits
13:41:05 <jar> ... The bits are not the resource
13:41:16 <jar> ... Fixed res never changes its info content
13:41:21 <jar> ... But the headers can change
13:41:59 <jar> ... Maybe the date changes
13:42:12 <jar> jar: The content-type is part of the FR's identity, yes?
13:42:30 <jar> TimBL: The rep is the http entity, is the same rep
13:42:49 <jar> jar: Are FR and rep in 1-1 correspondence?
13:42:58 <jar> TimBL: OK, yes, let's assume that
13:43:49 <jar> jar: HTTP entity = representation
13:44:00 <jar> ... There are response headers that are not entity headers
13:44:10 <timbl_> There is a 1:1 relationship between fixedresource and response. 
13:44:56 <jar> There are natural mappings in both directions
13:45:05 <jar> a FR has only one rep, thus one can map a FR to its rep
13:45:45 <jar> given any rep, one can define a FR that has that rep
13:46:26 <mhausenblas> other examples for fixed resources are: VCS, Internet Archive, microblogging posts
13:46:33 <jar> TimBL: Beware of FR assertions that might not be true
13:46:40 <mhausenblas> also: Wiki versions
13:47:35 <jar> TimBL: Style sheet may change, banner ads may change, in which case the thing isn't a FR
13:48:10 <jar> alan: If you fix a spelling mistake it's also not a FR
13:48:10 <timbl_> Specifically source code repositories mught be goo dexample so ffixed resources 
13:49:26 <timbl_> data:text/plain;Hello%20World%21
13:49:28 <jar> The resource named by the URI data:text/plain,banana  is a FR
13:49:50 <timbl_> great -- we have lots of examples, lets move on
13:50:27 <mhausenblas> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswVocabularyDependencies
13:50:42 <jar> I will add another box in the diagram for 'fixed resource', Tim
13:51:46 <timbl_> Why?
13:51:53 <timbl_> You already have one.
13:51:58 <mhausenblas> what is the relation between http:Message  and rfc2616:REsource
13:52:07 <jar> because {rest,awww}representation != fixed resource
13:53:05 <mhausenblas> http: as of in http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/
13:53:25 <jar> rfc2616 representation is by definition an rfc2616 entity
13:53:48 <jar> according to roy, every entity is a rep, but not nec. of the resource that was requested
13:54:02 <jar> e.g. entity in a 404 is not a rep of requested resource
13:54:14 <mhausenblas> ok, seems sensible
13:54:24 <timbl_> Yes
13:54:52 <timbl_> If the response if 200, then ...
13:55:12 <timbl_> the entity is a rep of the resource.
13:55:49 <jar> if response is 200, then the entity is a rep of the (state of) the resource
13:56:04 <mhausenblas> +1
13:56:30 <mhausenblas> timbl_: carries -> is ?
13:58:34 <jar> TimBL: Not all representations are HTTP.  So HTTP entity is a *subclass* of awww:representation
13:59:44 <jar> UML diagram: Arcs are relations that hold between members of the classes (boxes)
13:59:59 <timbl_> No, we change carries to a subclass relationship
14:00:15 <timbl_> a class relationship rather than an instance relationship.
14:00:26 <mhausenblas> 'Encoding of information thing' rdfs:subClassOf HTTP entity
14:00:35 <jar> JAR: I will change the arrow from entity to representation/encoding to be a subclass relation
14:01:03 <jar> s/entity/HTTP entity/
14:01:14 <mhausenblas> actually, other way round HTTP Entity is a kind of enconding ....
14:01:16 <timbl_> http:Entity subClassOf awww:Representation.
14:01:16 <jar> i.e. an HTTP is a kind of awww:representation
14:01:42 <timbl_> 'represnattion"
14:01:47 <timbl_> instead of encoding
14:02:01 <jar> alan: What's the relationship between?
14:02:39 <mhausenblas> 'is encoded as' -> 'representing'
14:02:48 <timbl_> s/Encoding/Representation/
14:03:40 <timbl_> s/is encoded as/representation/
14:03:43 <jar> hmm... that shouldn't edit the irc log...
14:03:59 <timbl_> s/is encoded as/has representation/
14:04:03 <timbl_> if you have to
14:04:12 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
14:04:23 <jar> JAR doesn't like 'awww:representation'... but may use it to respect tim's dislike of 'encoding'
14:05:03 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:05:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:05:54 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Michael to update http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem with the findings and agreements from today's meeting
14:05:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Update http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem with the findings and agreements from today's meeting [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-04-21].
14:06:01 <jar> TimBL: the intent of info res and generic resource is the same.  same concept
14:06:18 <jar> ... But you can talk about an HTTP resource, a somethingorother endpoint, but that's different
14:06:41 <timbl_> If an HTTP Resource supports POST then it is a HTTPPOstResource which is a subclass o f ServiceEndpoint, maybe.
14:08:05 <jar> michael: Do we have a connection between http-in-rdf and our diagram(s)?
14:08:21 <jar> jar: Is a 'response' the event, or is it the set of events?
14:08:56 <jar> timbl: Dan did a lot of interesting modeling of protocols, just by using links
14:08:58 <mhausenblas> TimBL: DanC did interesting modelling with HTTP 
14:09:09 <jar> ... if one message references another, then it was sent after it
14:09:40 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Query DanC re pointers for HTTP modelling
14:09:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Query
14:09:54 <jar> ... Ask Dan about it (but he may have forgotten about it)
14:10:36 <jar> jar: So a coincidentally identical sequence of bits would be a different 'response', yes? (by that notion of 'response')
14:11:45 <jar> michael: Upcoming issues with media fragments working group, also HTTPbis re sub-resources.  Should we look into the future?
14:11:51 <jar> ... I know this is coming up
14:12:42 <jar> jar: the ideal of ontology design is that you can deal with new things as they come along
14:13:40 <jar> michael: jquery is more powerful than prototype - powerful javascript library
14:13:57 <jar> ... it's a javascript ajax library, does more
14:14:27 <jar> TimBL: What is prototype?
14:14:52 <jar> michael: I assumed tabulator was using prototype...
14:17:08 <mhausenblas> http://jqueryui.com/
14:17:49 <jar> rrsagent, make logs public
14:19:16 <mhausenblas> next meeting 28 April
14:19:22 <mhausenblas> (after WWW ;)
14:19:58 <Zakim> - +3539149aabb
14:20:00 <Zakim> - +1.781.643.aaaa
14:20:04 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
14:20:09 <mhausenblas> zakim, list attendees
14:20:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.643.aaaa, TimBL, +3539149aabb, Alan_Ruttenberg
14:20:32 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is me
14:20:32 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
14:20:42 <mhausenblas> Zakim, .aabb is me
14:20:42 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named '.aabb'
14:21:03 <mhausenblas> Zakim,  +3539149aabb is me
14:21:03 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named '+3539149aabb'
14:21:16 <mhausenblas> present+ MichaelHausenblas
14:21:36 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is JonathanRees
14:21:36 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:21:46 <mhausenblas> present+ JonathanRees
14:21:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here
14:21:52 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you need to end that query with '?'
14:21:58 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
14:21:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimBL
14:21:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl_, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar, mhausenblas, trackbot
14:22:12 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:22:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:22:17 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
14:22:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.781.643.aaaa, TimBL, +3539149aabb, Alan_Ruttenberg
14:22:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
14:22:22 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
14:22:22 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-actions.rdf :
14:22:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to update http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem with the findings and agreements from today's meeting [1]
14:22:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-irc#T14-05-54
14:22:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Query DanC re pointers for HTTP modelling [2]
14:22:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-irc#T14-09-40