IRC log of ua on 2009-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:26:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:26:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc
16:26:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:26:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:26:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
16:26:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:26:10 [trackbot]
Date: 09 April 2009
16:27:04 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan
16:30:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:30:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Follow-up on alt discussion
16:30:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090331/
16:30:11 [kford]
Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/
16:30:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Update scribing schedule
16:31:08 [kford]
zakim, save agenda
16:31:15 [Zakim]
ok, kford, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-agenda.rdf
16:31:34 [kford]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:39:16 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
16:41:38 [kford]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-agenda.rdf
16:41:46 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
16:43:20 [kford]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:45:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
16:57:41 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:47 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:58:01 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:58:01 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:58:53 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:26 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:00:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:00:37 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:00:59 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
17:01:46 [JR]
zakim, code?
17:01:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
17:01:54 [Zakim]
+??P15
17:02:09 [JR]
zakim, ??P15
17:02:14 [JR]
zakim, ??P15 is really JR
17:02:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P15', JR
17:02:18 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
17:02:48 [Zakim]
+allanj
17:04:08 [kford]
Regrets: Simon Harper
17:05:21 [kford]
Scribe: kford
17:05:58 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:05:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:06:00 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:06:01 [Zakim]
2. Follow-up on alt discussion [from kford]
17:06:22 [mhakkinen]
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17:06:25 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
17:06:50 [AllanJ]
KF: review ALT CG call
17:07:14 [AllanJ]
...time spent on @labeledby
17:07:25 [AllanJ]
...reviewed UA concerns
17:07:46 [AllanJ]
...feedback - situations where ALT does not work
17:08:25 [AllanJ]
... - @labeledby and other new stuff could give richer feedback than @alt to users
17:09:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.203.091.aaaa
17:09:48 [AllanJ]
KF: need more documentation on how the options should work
17:10:25 [Henny]
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17:10:28 [AllanJ]
...proposal as written doesn't cover machine generated @alt
17:10:48 [AllanJ]
KF: inclined to support current proposal
17:11:11 [AllanJ]
...multiple ways to provide short replacement
17:11:38 [AllanJ]
...recommend UAWG support
17:11:56 [AllanJ]
...proposal is right long term proposal, because
17:12:10 [JR]
q+
17:12:15 [AllanJ]
- must have some short description
17:12:33 [AllanJ]
- technology moves forward
17:13:23 [kford]
JR: To clarify, accessibility is only in WCAG. Your code would still be valid.
17:13:36 [kford]
JR: That is accessibility supported.
17:13:37 [kford]
q+
17:13:43 [JR]
ack jr
17:14:25 [AllanJ]
KF: that's OK, can have valid HTML but still be inaccessible for other reasons
17:15:04 [kford]
ack kford
17:15:32 [AllanJ]
...if author goes beyond @alt and uses @labeledby understands accessibility
17:16:09 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
17:20:08 [mhakkinen]
not able to listen to the call, but will comment that if the alt proposal goes forward, it needs to at least comment on some of the concerns and that best practices and techniques should address implications for thin device browsers (that dont support ARIA) and older tech.
17:22:01 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:22:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Follow-up on alt discussion, closed
17:22:02 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:22:03 [Zakim]
3. Survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090331/ [from kford]
17:23:52 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - equivalent (for content)
17:24:37 [kford]
group needs to resolve issues, tabling for this week.
17:24:50 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - events and scripting, event handler, event type
17:25:27 [kford]
4 accepts, one change to clean up last sentence.
17:25:58 [kford]
Any objections to change?
17:26:01 [kford]
None heard.
17:26:45 [AllanJ]
proposed: events and scripting, event handler, event type
17:26:47 [AllanJ]
User agents often perform a task when an event having a particular "event type" occurs, including user interface events, changes to content, loading of content, and requests from the operating environment. Some markup languages allow authors to specify that a script, called an event handler, be executed when an event of a given type occurs. An event handler is explicitly associated with an...
17:26:48 [AllanJ]
...element through scripting, markup or the DOM.
17:26:59 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - focus, content focus, user interface focus, current focus
17:26:59 [jeanne2]
action: JS to update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed.
17:26:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-171 - Update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
17:27:52 [AllanJ]
Resolved: new definition: events and scripting, event handler, event type
17:27:54 [AllanJ]
User agents often perform a task when an event having a particular "event type" occurs, including user interface events, changes to content, loading of content, and requests from the operating environment. Some markup languages allow authors to specify that a script, called an event handler, be executed when an event of a given type occurs. An event handler is explicitly associated with an...
17:27:56 [AllanJ]
...element through scripting, markup or the DOM.
17:28:29 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - explicit user request
17:33:03 [kford]
Some discussion around MH changes of I do not like the term mistake in this content. Assigning blame to the user for poor UI or accessibility induced errors should be avoided.
17:33:03 [kford]
Proposed:
17:33:03 [kford]
Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes" to a prompt instead of "no." In this
17:33:03 [kford]
document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request.
17:33:13 [kford]
group likes changes.
17:33:32 [kford]
discussion of kford comment on why rendered content is excluded.
17:33:42 [mhakkinen]
if mistake is gone, I like it too.
17:35:25 [kford]
kford: I think we should delete the rendered content.
17:35:54 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:36:39 [kford]
Some disucssion from JR on some media players.
17:37:32 [kford]
JR: would could throw some of our recognized language in this definition.
17:38:43 [AllanJ]
explicit user request
17:38:45 [AllanJ]
Any user interaction by the user through the user agent user interface, the focus, or the selection. User requests are made, for example, through user agent user interface controls and keyboard bindings.
17:38:47 [AllanJ]
Some examples of explicit user requests include when the user selects "New viewport," responds "yes" to a prompt in the user agent's user interface, configures the user agent to behave in a certain way, or changes the selection or focus with the keyboard or pointing device. Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes"...
17:38:49 [AllanJ]
...to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request.
17:39:39 [kford]
JA: Any issues with this definition?
17:39:47 [kford]
None heard.
17:40:01 [AllanJ]
Resolved: Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes" to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request.
17:40:01 [mhakkinen]
ok with me
17:40:41 [AllanJ]
Resolved: explicit user request
17:40:43 [AllanJ]
Any user interaction by the user through the user agent user interface, the focus, or the selection. User requests are made, for example, through user agent user interface controls and keyboard bindings.
17:40:45 [AllanJ]
Some examples of explicit user requests include when the user selects "New viewport," responds "yes" to a prompt in the user agent's user interface, configures the user agent to behave in a certain way, or changes the selection or focus with the keyboard or pointing device. Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes"...
17:40:46 [AllanJ]
...to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request.
17:40:47 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request".
17:40:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-172 - Update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request". [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
17:40:49 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - focus, content focus, user interface focus, current focus
17:44:56 [kford]
JR: there is a lot going on here. A lot is talking about how you do focus.
17:45:26 [kford]
JA: Seems like 1,2 and 3 are defining. And then other text that explains a lot and seems more like a technique document.
17:46:11 [kford]
Action: JA clean up focus definition.
17:46:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-173 - Clean up focus definition. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-04-16].
17:48:19 [kford]
Action: KFord review current draft to ensure caret concepts are covered.
17:48:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
17:48:51 [kford]
Action: KF review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered.
17:48:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-174 - Review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered. [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-04-16].
17:49:07 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - graphical
17:50:13 [kford]
Resolved: graphical
17:50:13 [kford]
Information (including text, colors, graphics, images, and animations) rendered for visual consumption.
17:50:56 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - highlight
17:51:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
17:51:10 [jeanne]
action: JS to update the definition of graphical with the new definition
17:51:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-175 - Update the definition of graphical with the new definition [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
17:51:28 [AllanJ]
resolved: highlight
17:51:30 [AllanJ]
To emphasize through the user interface. For example, user agents highlight which content is selected or focused. Graphical highlight mechanisms include dotted boxes, underlining, and reverse video. Synthesized speech highlight mechanisms include alterations of voice pitch and volume ("speech prosody").
17:51:37 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - image
17:53:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
17:55:59 [AllanJ]
any objections to: image
17:56:01 [AllanJ]
Pictorial content that is not moving. See also the definition of animation.
17:56:15 [Zakim]
-JR
17:56:50 [AllanJ]
Resolved: image
17:56:52 [AllanJ]
Pictorial content that is not moving. See also the definition of animation.
17:56:56 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:57:01 [jeanne]
action: JS to update the glossary with definition of "highlight"
17:57:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-176 - Update the glossary with definition of "highlight" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
17:57:27 [jeanne]
action: JS to update glossary with the definition of "image"
17:57:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-177 - Update glossary with the definition of "image" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
17:57:59 [kford]
Glossary Proposal - important elements
18:00:25 [kford]
MH: Can we go back to image.
18:00:56 [kford]
MH: Things can change in an image that's not moving. An example is walk don't walk in a light.
18:02:08 [AllanJ]
Pictorial content that is static (i.e.not moving or changing). See also the definition of animation.
18:02:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
18:02:58 [AllanJ]
Resolved: Image
18:03:00 [AllanJ]
Pictorial content that is static (i.e.not moving or changing). See also the definition of animation.
18:03:01 [kford]
Group likes new definition.
18:03:49 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results#xq25
18:04:40 [kford]
Back to important elements.
18:05:17 [kford]
Had no proposal in survey.
18:06:15 [kford]
JA: This was about large important structural elements i.e. headings and such that AT supports today.
18:06:48 [kford]
MH: This should be about navigationally significant elements.
18:07:18 [mhakkinen]
elements significant for navigation
18:07:38 [kford]
JA: Opera has had this for a while. What do you call it.
18:07:57 [kford]
HS: talked about Opera navigate by heading.
18:08:13 [kford]
HS: I will ask around how we talk about this at Opera.
18:09:18 [kford]
MH: Going back historically to what we should have done in PW Webspeak, user had predefined structure points like headings or I want a class of items like divs.
18:09:29 [kford]
q+
18:10:06 [kford]
MH: I think ARIA does some of this.
18:12:14 [AllanJ]
KF: navigation by heading, shouldn't be up to AT alone. ATs create a unique viewport. UA may also need to provide this navigation.
18:12:36 [AllanJ]
...this is a tough challenge
18:13:03 [AllanJ]
...AT should also do this thing.
18:13:44 [AllanJ]
...if 'you' are creating a viewport, 'you' need to understand the requirements
18:15:43 [AllanJ]
KF: ARIA has concept of landmarks (structurally significant), author, UA, or AT could provide keybinding
18:16:07 [AllanJ]
...JAWS provided navigation by landmark
18:16:31 [kford]
MH reads list of ARIA landmarks.
18:17:37 [kford]
JA: This keyboard navigation is important for the basic keyboard user.
18:17:51 [kford]
JA: You shouldn't need a screen reader.
18:20:00 [AllanJ]
KF: very difficult for UA to know what the AT is doing to the viewport.
18:20:20 [AllanJ]
...viewport navigation needs to be improved.
18:20:57 [AllanJ]
...interaction problems between UA and AT
18:21:34 [AllanJ]
...if UA provides heading navigation, as does AT, but AT user turns off heading navigation
18:22:03 [AllanJ]
...what should UA do if the move to next heading keystroke is hit
18:22:30 [AllanJ]
MH: discusses Webspeak model of navigation configuration
18:23:04 [AllanJ]
KF: Opera has impressive keyboard navigation model.
18:24:14 [kford]
JA: This is similar to speech and acronym processing.
18:24:57 [kford]
JA: Author could define one thing, screen reader has a second and speech synthesizer could have a third.
18:25:44 [kford]
Issue: Think about interactions between user agents and AT around viewport creation and responsibilities.
18:25:44 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-35 - Think about interactions between user agents and AT around viewport creation and responsibilities. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/35/edit .
18:26:24 [kford]
JA: Guideline 4.7.2 talks about structured navigation.
18:26:44 [kford]
JA: It is currently at AAA. I'm not sure I like it at that level.
18:28:34 [jeanne]
action: JS to edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements"
18:28:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-178 - Edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16].
18:29:36 [kford]
Present+ Jeanne Mark Jan Kelly Henny
18:29:45 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
18:30:45 [Zakim]
-kford
18:30:46 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
18:30:47 [Zakim]
- +1.203.091.aaaa
18:30:50 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:30:55 [Zakim]
-allanj
18:30:57 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:30:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, Jeanne, JR, allanj, +1.203.091.aaaa, Mark_Hakkinen
18:32:03 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford
18:32:33 [kford]
zakim, please part
18:32:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:33:21 [mhakkinen]
fyi my opera help calls them "short cut keys"
18:34:24 [kford]
rrsagent, please part
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-actions.rdf :
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed. [1]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-26-59-1
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request". [2]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-40-47
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA clean up focus definition. [3]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-46-11
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KFord review current draft to ensure caret concepts are covered. [4]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-48-19
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered. [5]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-48-51
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update the definition of graphical with the new definition [6]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-51-10
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update the glossary with definition of "highlight" [7]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-57-01
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update glossary with the definition of "image" [8]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-57-27
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements" [9]
18:34:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T18-28-34