16:26:05 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:26:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc 16:26:07 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:26:07 Zakim has joined #ua 16:26:09 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:26:09 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes 16:26:10 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:26:10 Date: 09 April 2009 16:27:04 Chair: Jim_Allan 16:30:11 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 16:30:11 Agenda+ Follow-up on alt discussion 16:30:11 Agenda+ Survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090331/ 16:30:11 Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ 16:30:11 Agenda+ Update scribing schedule 16:31:08 zakim, save agenda 16:31:15 ok, kford, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-agenda.rdf 16:31:34 rrsagent, make logs public 16:39:16 rrsagent, make minutes 16:39:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 16:41:38 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-agenda.rdf 16:41:46 rrsagent, make minutes 16:41:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 16:43:20 rrsagent, make logs public 16:45:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 16:57:41 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:57:47 +[Microsoft] 16:58:01 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:58:01 +kford; got it 16:58:53 jeanne has joined #ua 17:00:26 zakim, code? 17:00:26 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:00:37 +Jeanne 17:00:59 JR has joined #ua 17:01:46 zakim, code? 17:01:47 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR 17:01:54 +??P15 17:02:09 zakim, ??P15 17:02:14 zakim, ??P15 is really JR 17:02:18 I don't understand '??P15', JR 17:02:18 +JR; got it 17:02:48 +allanj 17:04:08 Regrets: Simon Harper 17:05:21 Scribe: kford 17:05:58 zakim, close item 1 17:05:58 agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed 17:06:00 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:06:01 2. Follow-up on alt discussion [from kford] 17:06:22 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:06:25 scribe: allanj 17:06:50 KF: review ALT CG call 17:07:14 ...time spent on @labeledby 17:07:25 ...reviewed UA concerns 17:07:46 ...feedback - situations where ALT does not work 17:08:25 ... - @labeledby and other new stuff could give richer feedback than @alt to users 17:09:46 + +1.203.091.aaaa 17:09:48 KF: need more documentation on how the options should work 17:10:25 Henny has joined #ua 17:10:28 ...proposal as written doesn't cover machine generated @alt 17:10:48 KF: inclined to support current proposal 17:11:11 ...multiple ways to provide short replacement 17:11:38 ...recommend UAWG support 17:11:56 ...proposal is right long term proposal, because 17:12:10 q+ 17:12:15 - must have some short description 17:12:33 - technology moves forward 17:13:23 JR: To clarify, accessibility is only in WCAG. Your code would still be valid. 17:13:36 JR: That is accessibility supported. 17:13:37 q+ 17:13:43 ack jr 17:14:25 KF: that's OK, can have valid HTML but still be inaccessible for other reasons 17:15:04 ack kford 17:15:32 ...if author goes beyond @alt and uses @labeledby understands accessibility 17:16:09 jeanne2 has joined #ua 17:20:08 not able to listen to the call, but will comment that if the alt proposal goes forward, it needs to at least comment on some of the concerns and that best practices and techniques should address implications for thin device browsers (that dont support ARIA) and older tech. 17:22:01 zakim, close item 2 17:22:01 agendum 2, Follow-up on alt discussion, closed 17:22:02 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:22:03 3. Survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090331/ [from kford] 17:23:52 Glossary Proposal - equivalent (for content) 17:24:37 group needs to resolve issues, tabling for this week. 17:24:50 Glossary Proposal - events and scripting, event handler, event type 17:25:27 4 accepts, one change to clean up last sentence. 17:25:58 Any objections to change? 17:26:01 None heard. 17:26:45 proposed: events and scripting, event handler, event type 17:26:47 User agents often perform a task when an event having a particular "event type" occurs, including user interface events, changes to content, loading of content, and requests from the operating environment. Some markup languages allow authors to specify that a script, called an event handler, be executed when an event of a given type occurs. An event handler is explicitly associated with an... 17:26:48 ...element through scripting, markup or the DOM. 17:26:59 Glossary Proposal - focus, content focus, user interface focus, current focus 17:26:59 action: JS to update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed. 17:26:59 Created ACTION-171 - Update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 17:27:52 Resolved: new definition: events and scripting, event handler, event type 17:27:54 User agents often perform a task when an event having a particular "event type" occurs, including user interface events, changes to content, loading of content, and requests from the operating environment. Some markup languages allow authors to specify that a script, called an event handler, be executed when an event of a given type occurs. An event handler is explicitly associated with an... 17:27:56 ...element through scripting, markup or the DOM. 17:28:29 Glossary Proposal - explicit user request 17:33:03 Some discussion around MH changes of I do not like the term mistake in this content. Assigning blame to the user for poor UI or accessibility induced errors should be avoided. 17:33:03 Proposed: 17:33:03 Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes" to a prompt instead of "no." In this 17:33:03 document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request. 17:33:13 group likes changes. 17:33:32 discussion of kford comment on why rendered content is excluded. 17:33:42 if mistake is gone, I like it too. 17:35:25 kford: I think we should delete the rendered content. 17:35:54 jeanne has joined #ua 17:36:39 Some disucssion from JR on some media players. 17:37:32 JR: would could throw some of our recognized language in this definition. 17:38:43 explicit user request 17:38:45 Any user interaction by the user through the user agent user interface, the focus, or the selection. User requests are made, for example, through user agent user interface controls and keyboard bindings. 17:38:47 Some examples of explicit user requests include when the user selects "New viewport," responds "yes" to a prompt in the user agent's user interface, configures the user agent to behave in a certain way, or changes the selection or focus with the keyboard or pointing device. Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes"... 17:38:49 ...to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request. 17:39:39 JA: Any issues with this definition? 17:39:47 None heard. 17:40:01 Resolved: Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes" to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request. 17:40:01 ok with me 17:40:41 Resolved: explicit user request 17:40:43 Any user interaction by the user through the user agent user interface, the focus, or the selection. User requests are made, for example, through user agent user interface controls and keyboard bindings. 17:40:45 Some examples of explicit user requests include when the user selects "New viewport," responds "yes" to a prompt in the user agent's user interface, configures the user agent to behave in a certain way, or changes the selection or focus with the keyboard or pointing device. Note: Users can make errors when interacting with the user agent. For example, a user may inadvertently respond "yes"... 17:40:46 ...to a prompt instead of "no." In this document, this type of error is still considered an explicit user request. 17:40:47 action: JS to update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request". 17:40:48 Created ACTION-172 - Update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request". [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 17:40:49 Glossary Proposal - focus, content focus, user interface focus, current focus 17:44:56 JR: there is a lot going on here. A lot is talking about how you do focus. 17:45:26 JA: Seems like 1,2 and 3 are defining. And then other text that explains a lot and seems more like a technique document. 17:46:11 Action: JA clean up focus definition. 17:46:11 Created ACTION-173 - Clean up focus definition. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-04-16]. 17:48:19 Action: KFord review current draft to ensure caret concepts are covered. 17:48:19 Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord 17:48:51 Action: KF review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered. 17:48:51 Created ACTION-174 - Review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered. [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-04-16]. 17:49:07 Glossary Proposal - graphical 17:50:13 Resolved: graphical 17:50:13 Information (including text, colors, graphics, images, and animations) rendered for visual consumption. 17:50:56 Glossary Proposal - highlight 17:51:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 17:51:10 action: JS to update the definition of graphical with the new definition 17:51:10 Created ACTION-175 - Update the definition of graphical with the new definition [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 17:51:28 resolved: highlight 17:51:30 To emphasize through the user interface. For example, user agents highlight which content is selected or focused. Graphical highlight mechanisms include dotted boxes, underlining, and reverse video. Synthesized speech highlight mechanisms include alterations of voice pitch and volume ("speech prosody"). 17:51:37 Glossary Proposal - image 17:53:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 17:55:59 any objections to: image 17:56:01 Pictorial content that is not moving. See also the definition of animation. 17:56:15 -JR 17:56:50 Resolved: image 17:56:52 Pictorial content that is not moving. See also the definition of animation. 17:56:56 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:57:01 action: JS to update the glossary with definition of "highlight" 17:57:02 Created ACTION-176 - Update the glossary with definition of "highlight" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 17:57:27 action: JS to update glossary with the definition of "image" 17:57:27 Created ACTION-177 - Update glossary with the definition of "image" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 17:57:59 Glossary Proposal - important elements 18:00:25 MH: Can we go back to image. 18:00:56 MH: Things can change in an image that's not moving. An example is walk don't walk in a light. 18:02:08 Pictorial content that is static (i.e.not moving or changing). See also the definition of animation. 18:02:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 18:02:58 Resolved: Image 18:03:00 Pictorial content that is static (i.e.not moving or changing). See also the definition of animation. 18:03:01 Group likes new definition. 18:03:49 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results#xq25 18:04:40 Back to important elements. 18:05:17 Had no proposal in survey. 18:06:15 JA: This was about large important structural elements i.e. headings and such that AT supports today. 18:06:48 MH: This should be about navigationally significant elements. 18:07:18 elements significant for navigation 18:07:38 JA: Opera has had this for a while. What do you call it. 18:07:57 HS: talked about Opera navigate by heading. 18:08:13 HS: I will ask around how we talk about this at Opera. 18:09:18 MH: Going back historically to what we should have done in PW Webspeak, user had predefined structure points like headings or I want a class of items like divs. 18:09:29 q+ 18:10:06 MH: I think ARIA does some of this. 18:12:14 KF: navigation by heading, shouldn't be up to AT alone. ATs create a unique viewport. UA may also need to provide this navigation. 18:12:36 ...this is a tough challenge 18:13:03 ...AT should also do this thing. 18:13:44 ...if 'you' are creating a viewport, 'you' need to understand the requirements 18:15:43 KF: ARIA has concept of landmarks (structurally significant), author, UA, or AT could provide keybinding 18:16:07 ...JAWS provided navigation by landmark 18:16:31 MH reads list of ARIA landmarks. 18:17:37 JA: This keyboard navigation is important for the basic keyboard user. 18:17:51 JA: You shouldn't need a screen reader. 18:20:00 KF: very difficult for UA to know what the AT is doing to the viewport. 18:20:20 ...viewport navigation needs to be improved. 18:20:57 ...interaction problems between UA and AT 18:21:34 ...if UA provides heading navigation, as does AT, but AT user turns off heading navigation 18:22:03 ...what should UA do if the move to next heading keystroke is hit 18:22:30 MH: discusses Webspeak model of navigation configuration 18:23:04 KF: Opera has impressive keyboard navigation model. 18:24:14 JA: This is similar to speech and acronym processing. 18:24:57 JA: Author could define one thing, screen reader has a second and speech synthesizer could have a third. 18:25:44 Issue: Think about interactions between user agents and AT around viewport creation and responsibilities. 18:25:44 Created ISSUE-35 - Think about interactions between user agents and AT around viewport creation and responsibilities. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/35/edit . 18:26:24 JA: Guideline 4.7.2 talks about structured navigation. 18:26:44 JA: It is currently at AAA. I'm not sure I like it at that level. 18:28:34 action: JS to edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements" 18:28:34 Created ACTION-178 - Edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-04-16]. 18:29:36 Present+ Jeanne Mark Jan Kelly Henny 18:29:45 rrsagent, make minutes 18:29:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 18:30:45 -kford 18:30:46 -Mark_Hakkinen 18:30:47 - +1.203.091.aaaa 18:30:50 -Jeanne 18:30:55 -allanj 18:30:57 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:30:58 Attendees were kford, Jeanne, JR, allanj, +1.203.091.aaaa, Mark_Hakkinen 18:32:03 rrsagent, make minutes 18:32:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-minutes.html kford 18:32:33 zakim, please part 18:32:33 Zakim has left #ua 18:33:21 fyi my opera help calls them "short cut keys" 18:34:24 rrsagent, please part 18:34:24 I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-actions.rdf : 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to update glossary definition of equivalent (for content) with the edits Mark proposed. [1] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-26-59-1 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of "explicit user request". [2] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-40-47 18:34:24 ACTION: JA clean up focus definition. [3] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-46-11 18:34:24 ACTION: KFord review current draft to ensure caret concepts are covered. [4] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-48-19 18:34:24 ACTION: KF review current draft to see if caret concepts are covered. [5] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-48-51 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to update the definition of graphical with the new definition [6] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-51-10 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to update the glossary with definition of "highlight" [7] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-57-01 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to update glossary with the definition of "image" [8] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T17-57-27 18:34:24 ACTION: JS to edit 4.7.2 to add an editor's note to review the definition of "important elements" [9] 18:34:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-ua-irc#T18-28-34