IRC log of tagmem on 2009-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:01:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc
17:01:40 [jar]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:01:40 [Zakim]
sorry, jar, I don't know what conference this is
17:01:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jar, Zakim, Ashok, masinter, trackbot, noah, timbl
17:01:46 [jar]
zakim, this is tag
17:01:46 [Zakim]
ok, jar; that matches TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
17:01:57 [jar]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:01:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, TimBL, [IBMCambridge], alanr
17:02:12 [Zakim]
+John_Kemp
17:02:19 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
17:02:20 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:02:25 [jar]
zakim, alanr is jar
17:02:26 [Zakim]
+jar; got it
17:03:07 [jar]
scribenick: jar
17:03:48 [Zakim]
+Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:53 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, TimBL, noah, jar, John_Kemp, Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jar, Zakim, Ashok, masinter, trackbot, noah, timbl
17:03:58 [johnk]
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17:04:16 [jar]
Convened.
17:04:25 [jar]
regrets Henry, Raman
17:04:54 [jar]
future regrets - April 16 - John, Raman
17:05:08 [jar]
noah: propose to cancel 4/23
17:05:24 [johnk]
trackbot-ng, start telcom
17:05:24 [trackbot]
Sorry, johnk, I don't understand 'trackbot-ng, start telcom'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:05:26 [jar]
RESOLVED Telecon of 2009-04-23 is canceled
17:05:38 [johnk]
trackbot-ng, start telcon
17:05:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:05:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:05:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:05:43 [trackbot]
Date: 09 April 2009
17:06:25 [jar]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 26 March http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/03/26-minutes
17:07:18 [jar]
noah: Agenda review. Propose to look at pending/due action items at end of call
17:07:29 [jar]
noah: POWDER reviews due on the 27th
17:07:56 [jar]
noah: Dan interested in working this up for next week
17:08:24 [jar]
noah: Web app state WD - note has been sent to director for his approval
17:08:34 [jar]
timbl: domain lead
17:09:26 [jar]
s/domain lead/trying to figure out whether it is domain lead or director who's responsible/
17:09:50 [jar]
noah: Let's not get stuck on this [timbl & noah will figure it out]
17:10:15 [jar]
noah: Priorities discussion - Tim has contributed to it on email - please follow up
17:10:55 [jar]
noah: F2F reminders. 23-25 June, 22-24 Sept, both at MIT.
17:11:10 [jar]
... hearing no objections, this is confirmed.
17:12:25 [jar]
NOTE TO MINUTES EDITOR -- insert agendum numbers into the flow above.
17:12:29 [timbl]
The marlowe is slightly further away from MIT and from the river thanthe sonesta
17:12:44 [jar]
AGENDUM 4 - Web services resource access
17:12:49 [jar]
noah: Want to wind this up
17:13:58 [jar]
noah: Bob Freund wants us to give a heads-up ASAP if there will be an TAG issues re WS-RA
17:14:34 [Ashok]
q+
17:14:50 [jar]
noah: We saw in early drafts of WS addressing the use of XML elements to identify things, instead of URIs
17:15:22 [jar]
... Naming things in this way is counter to AWWW
17:15:56 [jar]
... Apparently TAG's note on the subject has made little difference
17:16:19 [jar]
larry: I wouldn't expect a group already moving forward with an arch we don't like to change directions
17:16:41 [jar]
... The purpose of the warning note would only be a signpost for other efforts
17:16:59 [johnk]
q+ to ask whether the effort to draft a note is small enough that we should do it anyway?
17:17:13 [jar]
noah: The question is what to do
17:17:33 [timbl]
I think we let this go for the reasons LArry mentions among others .. we have said our peice
17:18:06 [jar]
ashok: ? We might want them to spell out what would happen if one did an HTTP GET on the URI in the endpoint reference ? ... it could lead to useful stuff
17:18:56 [masinter]
q+
17:19:00 [jar]
johnk: If it's not too much effort to draft a note, couldn't we choose to raise it again?
17:19:03 [johnk]
ack johnk
17:19:03 [Zakim]
johnk, you wanted to ask whether the effort to draft a note is small enough that we should do it anyway?
17:19:17 [jar]
noah: Hard to get general agreement on such a note
17:19:29 [noah]
q?
17:19:37 [noah]
ack ashok
17:19:45 [jar]
... and there are two points, 1. How endpoints are named, 2. Duplication of HTTP
17:20:05 [timbl]
q+ to say yes, both those issues, but too big a difference i mentality for more communication to be useful.
17:20:15 [jar]
larry: More interested in how TAG deals with things like this in general, not necessarily this particular case
17:20:28 [jar]
... We shouldn't hold up webarch as a reason
17:20:42 [timbl]
q+ to say yes, both those issues, but too big a difference i mentality for more communication to be useful. -- it isn't that it violates the web arch but that it competes with it.
17:20:46 [jar]
... Better to instead say why such and such is not a good idea
17:20:55 [noah]
q?
17:21:26 [timbl]
ack timbl
17:21:26 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to say yes, both those issues, but too big a difference i mentality for more communication to be useful. and to say yes, both those issues, but too big a
17:21:30 [jar]
larry: It's appropriate for TAG to have authority to make statements, even when they're at variance with other group...
17:21:30 [Zakim]
... difference i mentality for more communication to be useful. -- it isn't that it violates the web arch but that it competes with it.
17:22:05 [noah]
q?
17:22:11 [noah]
ack next
17:22:11 [masinter]
q-
17:22:14 [jar]
timbl: On both issues, the problem is competition with URIs and HTTP. But no use spending much more time on this issue
17:22:16 [Ashok]
+1 to what Tim said
17:23:03 [jar]
noah: Any specific different proposal for something to do?
17:23:46 [masinter]
"The W3C Technical Architecture Group is disturbed by the fact that this recommendation defines mechnaisms that compete in some way with URIs and HTTP, by reimplementing other mechanisms."
17:23:57 [masinter]
"This design pattern should not be repeated."
17:23:59 [jar]
ashok: I recommend [what I said earlier]
17:25:26 [masinter]
just thinking about IAB's/IESG's ability to add notes to WG texts, even if they don't agree
17:26:11 [masinter]
even if the IETF working group don't agree
17:26:31 [jar]
timbl: I see no marginal gain to any effort of this sort
17:26:38 [masinter]
I'm thinking more about 'how TAG works' rather than this particular effort
17:27:24 [johnk]
q+
17:27:56 [timbl]
If there were a small change t the document which would fix it then we could spend effort on this, but we aren't we are saying they whole project is a bad idea compared to web arch.
17:28:00 [jar]
masinter: Interested in seeing that this kind of note-on-publication is something the TAG can do [procedurally]
17:28:09 [noah]
q+
17:28:21 [noah]
ack johnk
17:28:29 [timbl]
q+ to ashok red herring
17:29:29 [jar]
johnk: It's not about a competing architecture, but rather how it intersects web architecture [what GET does]
17:30:16 [noah]
ack noah
17:30:30 [jar]
noah: Having a competitor to HTTP/URI is very dissonant to web. But we've said this many times.
17:31:33 [jar]
timbl: Asking about GET is a red herring. People don't do GETs on service endpoints... But a different question is recommending that GET return interesting information, but that's not the issue on the table
17:31:53 [johnk]
I'm convinced enough by Tim's argument...
17:32:05 [jar]
noah: Informal preference poll
17:32:25 [jar]
... speak up if you prefer to send a note as ashok proposed
17:32:31 [jar]
(silence)
17:33:40 [jar]
. ACTION noah to write to Bob stating that there will probably not be any concerns from TAG
17:33:51 [jar]
ACTION noah to write to Bob stating that there will probably not be any concerns from TAG
17:33:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-256 - Write to Bob stating that there will probably not be any concerns from TAG [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-04-16].
17:34:30 [jar]
(TO MINUTES EDITOR: Wording could have been better... Bob who, concerns about what)
17:34:47 [jar]
AGENDUM 5: XMLVersioning-41
17:35:09 [Ashok]
Bob Freund, chair of the WS-RA WG
17:35:42 [jar]
noah: What should TAG be doing regarding language versioning?
17:35:59 [jar]
... Look for Larry's email response to Noah's summarizing email on the subject
17:36:49 [jar]
noah: The arch doc gives some advice on version identifiers (use them), but we got nervous. Story is unresolved
17:37:11 [jar]
... Anything to help the HTML community? Any revisions desired to arch doc? These are separate questions
17:38:31 [jar]
larry: These things are related. HTML is a use case that can help drive work on versioning [in arch doc or elsewhere]
17:38:56 [jar]
(TO MINUTES EDITOR: make consistent larry vs. masinter)
17:39:19 [noah]
q?
17:39:36 [jar]
larry: If no id, then no versioning. Id tells you what extensions are being used and which aren't
17:40:16 [jar]
... We were looking at the issues in the abstract. Specific cases are valuable, e.g. HTML4/HTML5.
17:40:38 [jar]
... HTML5 has come to an interesting policy
17:40:53 [jar]
... interesting to look at kinds of extensions and how they're indicated
17:40:55 [timbl]
q+
17:41:03 [jar]
larry: Willing to work on this
17:41:05 [johnk]
q+
17:41:27 [johnk]
q-
17:41:32 [jar]
timbl: A really good idea to write this up. Good to tell the story, hold off on drawing conclusions.
17:41:58 [johnk]
q+
17:42:00 [jar]
... I don't know that this can be separated from the philosophy that every browser can show every document, but ...
17:42:05 [noah]
ack timbl
17:42:05 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to ashok red herring and to
17:43:03 [jar]
johnk: Specific examples good. Volunteer to help Larry. Agree that current discussion in AWWW is vaguer than it could be. Would be good to make advice more specific based on examples
17:44:35 [jar]
noah: Time to assign people... the two volunteers are new to the TAG's work on this subject
17:45:57 [jar]
noah: To the extent HTML5 signals an extensibility architecture - can we write that down?
17:47:00 [jar]
larry: Looking at process - the HTML5 WG is trying to close issue of versioning - can we say something in the next 6 weeks? Even if not very strong? Timeliness is important.
17:47:31 [jar]
noah: I would leave decisions like that up to the volunteers
17:48:14 [jar]
larry: Happy to work with others [John/Jonathan] so we can have a good discussion next week
17:48:27 [johnk]
I have no time in the next week
17:49:15 [jar]
noah: Larry/Jonathan/John take a week to move it forward, we'll take it up then
17:49:35 [noah]
q?
17:49:41 [noah]
ack johnk
17:49:48 [jar]
larry: I'm supposed to report back to HTML WG on whether the TAG will have anything to say about this...
17:50:56 [jar]
noah: Meeting of 23rd is being UN-cancelled, but Noah not available to plan he agenda
17:51:17 [jar]
... Perhaps we can just do versioning then
17:51:23 [jar]
s/plan he/plan the/
17:51:45 [jar]
ACTION-241?
17:51:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-241 -- Larry Masinter to review TAG versioning situation and report back to TAG and HTML -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
17:51:45 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/241
17:52:01 [jar]
noah: Closing
17:52:12 [jar]
close ACTION-241
17:52:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-241 Review TAG versioning situation and report back to TAG and HTML closed
17:52:28 [jar]
close ACTION-229
17:52:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-229 Noah to respond to John Kemp proposal of Feb 17 on versioning closed
17:53:11 [jar]
close ACTION-183
17:53:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-183 Incorporate formalism into versioning compatibility strategies closed
17:53:50 [jar]
noah: John, re blog posting on versioning identifiers?
17:54:08 [jar]
johnk: Is this work part of Larry's action now?
17:54:33 [jar]
noah: Yes, but not directly... we should land in a consistent place
17:54:45 [masinter]
My proposal was to use the HTML example to lead the general discussion
17:54:49 [jar]
... Worried that having two active threads on versioning will be painful
17:55:23 [jar]
... Let's let the arch doc versioning problem sit for a while [pending other work]
17:56:39 [jar]
AGENDUM 6: contentTypeOverride-24
17:57:13 [jar]
noah: Dan was going to lead us through this. He's not here.
17:57:46 [jar]
masinter: The issue has been split off and moved to IETF. e.g. 20 messages on content sniffing this morning
17:58:17 [jar]
masinter: I sent something about this to www-tag
17:58:39 [masinter]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Apr/0020.html
18:00:01 [jar]
masinter: I summarized what I thought the nature of the argument is. How extensibility fails, how systems evolve
18:00:27 [jar]
s/20 messages/10 messages/
18:01:20 [jar]
masinter: I'm encouraging liaison at an architectural level. Revisit in 6-8 weeks
18:01:57 [jar]
ACTION noah due May 15 to schedule TAG to revisit progress in IETF/HTML liaison on content sniffing (invite Mark Not or Lisa D?)
18:01:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-257 - Due May 15 to schedule TAG to revisit progress in IETF/HTML liaison on content sniffing (invite Mark Not or Lisa D?) [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-04-16].
18:02:09 [johnk]
here's a link to the last message in the thread on that subject from HTTP WG - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2009AprJun/0183.html
18:02:33 [jar]
NOTE TO MINUTES EDITOR: fix date on last action
18:02:38 [jar]
close ACTION-233
18:02:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-233 Report back from IETF/HTML liason meeting in March regarding MIME type override closed
18:03:48 [noah]
q?
18:03:51 [jar]
noah: re ACTION-236, frag ids are being used for app state, apps are synthesizing documents...
18:04:06 [jar]
AGENDUM 7: HTML
18:04:16 [jar]
Defer until Dan can participate.
18:04:23 [jar]
AGENDUM 8:
18:04:30 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
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18:06:03 [jar]
close 240
18:06:08 [jar]
close ACTION-240
18:06:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-240 Read thread on RDFa, CURIEs and profile and summarize http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0295.html closed
18:06:36 [jar]
close ACTION-245
18:06:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-245 Noah to respond to TPAC survey saying TAG will meet Monday and Friday (half days) closed
18:06:53 [jar]
close ACTION-248
18:06:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-248 Prepare a new draft of http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/hash-in-url-20080320.html for review by the group closed
18:07:04 [jar]
(It was clear that Raman had produced his draft.)
18:07:19 [jar]
close ACTION-251
18:07:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-251 Assemble the Mar 2009 f2f minutes from the now-complete 3 daily records closed
18:07:32 [jar]
close ACTION-252
18:07:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-252 Noah to schedule discussion of Autumn TAG F2F - see minutes of 26 March 2009 closed
18:07:54 [jar]
ACTION-253 needs to stay open. Postpone to next week 4/16
18:10:04 [jar]
ACTION-255?
18:10:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-255 -- John Kemp to contact Sam to ask (a) how can the TAG be helpful (b) offer set up phone call involving Sam & 1 or 2 others -- due 2009-04-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:10:04 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/255
18:10:21 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue
18:10:26 [jar]
noah: keep open; push out.
18:11:09 [jar]
ACTION-24?
18:11:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-24 -- Tim Berners-Lee to clarify http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri , perhaps by using N3 -- due 2009-03-03 -- OPEN
18:11:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/24
18:11:26 [jar]
postpone to just before June F2F
18:11:34 [jar]
ACTION-116?
18:11:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-116 -- Tim Berners-Lee to align the tabulator internal vocabulary with the vocabulary in the rules http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to either as needed. -- due 2009-04-04 -- OPEN
18:11:34 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/116
18:11:49 [jar]
TimBL: That, I'm working on. Happy to keep being reminded every week.
18:12:57 [jar]
ACTION-201?
18:12:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW discussions -- due 2009-03-30 -- OPEN
18:12:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201
18:14:12 [jar]
jar: Probably not very good use of TAG time right now
18:14:39 [jar]
... Scheduling thing
18:14:54 [jar]
... JAR will remind Noah to schedule this
18:15:24 [jar]
noah: How about May 5.
18:15:37 [jar]
ACTION-251?
18:15:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-251 -- Noah Mendelsohn to assemble the Mar 2009 f2f minutes from the now-complete 3 daily records -- due 2009-04-02 -- CLOSED
18:15:37 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/251
18:15:57 [jar]
larry: Not done. But it still makes sense to do it.
18:16:03 [jar]
... How about 2 weeks.
18:17:23 [jar]
ADJOURNED.
18:17:30 [Zakim]
-Ashok_Malhotra
18:17:38 [Zakim]
-John_Kemp
18:17:39 [Zakim]
-noah
18:17:39 [Zakim]
-Masinter
18:17:41 [Zakim]
-jar
18:18:00 [timbl]
Well done finishing early
18:18:08 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:18:12 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
18:18:12 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc#T18-18-12
18:21:32 [noah]
Thank you Tim, though I would have been less successful in that had Dan been here to discuss the other two big items on the agenda :-). Good wishes are always appreciated in any case!
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18:35:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, TimBL, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:35:03 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:35:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were Masinter, TimBL, John_Kemp, noah, jar, Ashok_Malhotra
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