15:58:19 RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:58:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-irc
15:58:19 + +0049251280aaaa
15:58:20 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:22 Zakim, this will be HTML
15:58:23 ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
15:58:23 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:58:24 Date: 09 April 2009
15:58:33 Zakim, +0049251280aaaa is me
15:58:33 +Julian; got it
15:58:36 aroben has joined #html-wg
15:58:47 +Sam
15:58:54 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:58:54 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:58:56 +Mike
15:59:17 +Masinter
15:59:32 Zakim, pick a scribe
15:59:32 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose smedero
15:59:36 aroben_ has joined #html-wg
15:59:36 +[Microsoft]
15:59:40 zakim, mi is me
15:59:40 +ChrisWilson; got it
15:59:48 well, I did scribe recently!
15:59:50 heh
15:59:55 zakim, pick a scribe
15:59:55 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
16:00:02 zakim, pick a scribe
16:00:02 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
16:00:12 this is NOT working :-)
16:00:18 zakim, pick a scribe
16:00:18 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisWilson
16:00:48 ok.
16:00:49 +Matt_May
16:01:04 scribenick: ChrisWilson
16:01:39 zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:39 On the phone I see smedero, Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May
16:01:51 Zakim, mute Mike
16:01:51 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Mike
16:02:25 Zakim, mute smedero
16:02:25 smedero should now be muted
16:02:25 sam: looks around for lachlan
16:02:26 Zakim, Mike-Mobile has MikeSmith
16:02:26 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike-Mobile'
16:02:36 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:36 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May
16:02:46 action-115?
16:02:46 ACTION-115 -- Michael(tm) Smith to set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 -- due 2009-04-07 -- OPEN
16:02:46 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/115
16:02:47 Title: ACTION-115 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:03:06 dsinger has joined #html-wg
16:03:17 q+
16:03:27 +[Apple]
16:03:28 Ms: didn't realize I had that, will need to move date out +1week
16:03:33 zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:03:33 +dsinger; got it
16:03:33 trackbot, action-115 due next week
16:03:34 ACTION-115 Set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 due date now next week
16:03:50 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:50 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple]
16:03:52 [Apple] has dsinger
16:03:57 ack, julian
16:04:29 ack julian
16:05:00 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:05:16 Regarding ACTION-103: followed up on the mailing list; J. Holsten promised a new draft soonish
16:05:39 action-105?
16:05:40 ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:05:40 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
16:05:41 Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:05:55 on ACTION-103: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Apr/0088.html
16:05:56 Title: Re: Registering the about: URI scheme from Joseph A Holsten on 2009-04-03 (public-html@w3.org from April 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:06:03 sam: I've met with Steven Pemberton and others at AC; have posted some outcomes from that discussion
16:06:14 emails didn't get linked to action item
16:06:28 sam: some idea that some extensibility capabilities would meet a lot of needs.
16:06:40 action-105?
16:06:40 ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
16:06:40 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
16:06:41 Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:06:42 Larry: would be useful if reports were linked to this action
16:06:45 sam: I'll do that.
16:06:59 +Shepazu
16:07:00 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:00 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu (muted)
16:07:02 [Apple] has dsinger
16:07:48 dsinger: I'm not confident that putting the two groups together in one room wouldn't cause chaos.
16:08:04 Zakim, who's making noise
16:08:04 I don't understand 'who's making noise', Julian
16:08:08 Zakim, who's making noise?
16:08:21 Julian, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (15%), [Apple] (34%), ChrisWilson (24%), Shepazu (9%)
16:08:34 larry: it's not clear to me that the current chaos is any worse than the chaos that would ensue
16:08:39 zakim, mute chriswilson
16:08:39 ChrisWilson should now be muted
16:08:53 dsinger: I think it would be - both groups would come to a standstill
16:09:31 divergence is distructive
16:09:42 sam: I think dsinger would like to hear confirmation that the XHTML2 group believes in the HTML design principles.
16:09:52 s/distruct/destruct/
16:10:17 sam: will take action to confirm that
16:10:18 q+ to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues
16:10:22 q+
16:10:27 I agree that agreement on design principles is highly desirable
16:10:42 ack MikeSmith
16:10:42 MikeSmith, you wanted to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues
16:10:51 q-
16:10:51 ack mike
16:11:34 sam: yes, I did talk to a number of people who were at the AC meeting, including several browser vendors and XHTML2 WG participants.
16:11:44 larry: there were ~20 people in the breakout room.
16:12:16 sam: obviously with the mail I sent yesterday, the discussion is now open to everyone (= the internets)
16:12:55 dsinger: you seem to be making progress, so I'm (hopeful? despite being skeptical?)
16:13:03 q+
16:13:12 Zakim, drop Mike
16:13:12 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike'
16:13:18 -ChrisWilson
16:13:21 ack j
16:13:35 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:13:35 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:13:37 +Mike
16:13:43 q-
16:13:47 julian: sam, where did you send that mail? (shawn answers^^)
16:14:15 zakim, mute mike
16:14:15 Mike should now be muted
16:14:47 larry: i did have a comment - I'd like to distinguish between platform and language features a little better
16:14:56 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:14:56 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu, Mike (muted)
16:14:57 larry: plugins are another way platform features get added
16:14:59 [Apple] has dsinger
16:15:12 zakim, microsoft is me
16:15:12 +ChrisWilson; got it
16:15:22 [both platform and language features, actually]
16:15:53 larry: it may very well be there are some plugin features that become platform features over time; I don't think the architecture should exclude plugins as a way features get added.
16:16:14 sam, can you repeat that?
16:16:34 sam: is the idea of plugins something that should be factored into the design principles?
16:16:37 larry: most likely
16:17:16 larry: it isn't addressed in the current design principles, but I think it would be a good thing to add
16:17:41 Zakim, unmute me
16:17:41 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:17:48 larry: your post currently only mentions browsers, but plugins add platform features too
16:17:50 Zakim, unmute Mike
16:17:50 Mike should no longer be muted
16:18:14 Mike: I don't agree at all that platform features are added via plugins.
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16:18:38 mike: core platform features are not added by third-party plugins.
16:18:47 larry:never?
16:18:56 mike: never, by definition.
16:19:11 doug: what about SVG?
16:19:17 zakim, unmute me
16:19:17 ChrisWilson was not muted, ChrisWilson
16:19:38 mike: there's an open standard for SVG, it's not
16:20:04 mike: "added" thru the plugin as a language feature, it's added because there's a standard
16:20:59 mike: it's not under the control of the plugin whether it's a language feature or not.
16:21:07 -ChrisWilson
16:21:19 [I wonder if FF extensions could be considered a plugin for these purposes... I guess it depends on the extension]
16:21:23 Zakim, who is making noise?
16:21:28 +[Microsoft]
16:21:30 zakim, microsoft is me
16:21:30 +ChrisWilson; got it
16:21:34 rubys, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (88%), Mike (29%)
16:22:16 larry: if it's a platform extension, it's okay only after it becomes a recommendation, not before?
16:22:29 Zakim, mute Mike
16:22:29 Mike should now be muted
16:23:04 doug: take the example of PDF. It could easily be implemented by a browser. Would that be a platform feature [of HTML]?
16:23:20 doug: that seems like a political not a technical distinction
16:23:38 doug: not that I'm dissing the open web [ed: yeah right]
16:23:58 I guess I don't see what it's useful for us to be trying to define what a "platform feature" is at all
16:24:40 q+ to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all
16:25:20 Hm, surely platform features are required browser behavior...there is UA behavior associated
16:25:45 language features are things like tags you put in your document so that search engines index you better
16:25:46 larry: platform/language extensibility is a good idea; I was just saying it seems to be a legitimate way of extending the web
16:26:36 doug: I tend to agree with larry. If you're going to talk about extending the web in terms of features, what's the practical way of saying "plugins are okay"?
16:27:26 q+ to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language.
16:27:45 larry: if the web platform relies on plugins, breaking plugins would break the web.
16:28:01 there is required browser behavior to enable plugins. the conformance stops at 'invoke the plugin if you have it'
16:28:24 what dsinger said.
16:28:24 doug: I don't think anyone wants to break plugins - I like me some Flash games.
16:28:56 doug: adding new features to enable plugins might put more of a burden on the language, which may or may not be a good thing - at the very least, it's a different thing.
16:29:23 larry: I wasn't suggesting that - just that new CSS, etc. functionality should take into account that plugins shouldn't get broken.
16:30:17 jgraham: notes that there are quite complex issues with plugins and parsing, scripting, etc.
16:30:32 q?
16:30:52 q+
16:31:12 doug: some of these issues are also appropriate when SVG is referenced, just due to browsing context.
16:31:45 larry: I'll raise an issue on this
16:31:57 q-
16:32:08 ack MikeSmith
16:32:08 MikeSmith, you wanted to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all
16:32:18 Zakim, unmute me
16:32:18 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:32:23 Zakim, unmute Mike
16:32:23 Mike should no longer be muted
16:32:57 mike: larry and doug seem interested in this, so I would suggest they write up a spec for this.
16:33:42 mike: maybe we shouldn't be trying to define what a platform feature is at all.
16:34:15 sam: at the AC mtg, there was some idea that the delta between SVG and, say, RDFa should be captured, because they're different (SVG requires browser impl)
16:34:36 SVG requires browser or browser plugin impl
16:34:44 ack ChrisWilson
16:34:44 ChrisWilson, you wanted to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language.
16:34:51 sam: the language may not need to anoint RDFa, but probably does SVG.
16:35:10 [RDFa doesn't *require* any extra browser support beyond putting them in the DOM, but it could benefit from it (if, for example, it takes the cure that an address is an address, and provides a map option, etc.)]
16:35:21 s/cure/cue/
16:36:13 sam: anything else on this before we move on?
16:36:57 sam: last I'd heard, it was Rob Sayre's intent to include summary and profile
16:36:59 shepazu, have not some suggestions about RDFa in text/html been predicated on having some form of namespace support in text/html parsers
16:37:16 MikeSmith: that's true
16:37:20 good point
16:38:43 sam: chris, care to say anything in advance of your one due next week on HTML extensibility?
16:39:19 -Matt_May
16:39:21 -smedero
16:39:22 -[Apple]
16:39:23 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:39:24 -Julian
16:39:26 -Sam
16:39:27 -Mike
16:39:34 -Shepazu
16:39:37 chris: just that I agree with your general sentiment that language extensibility is a good thing (based on our experience in IE), but core platform features should be in the language.
16:39:43 sam: with that, let's adjourn
16:39:45 rrsagent: draft minutes
16:39:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
16:40:18 Chair: Sam Ruby
16:40:19 -Masinter
16:41:02 adele has joined #html-wg
16:41:15 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html ChrisWilson
16:41:17 Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:47:43 s/plugin impl/plugin implementation/
16:49:35 s/Ms:/MikeSmith:/
16:50:43 (SVG doesn't necessarily require browser implementation - you could emulate much of it with script and