15:58:19 RRSAgent has joined #html-wg 15:58:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-irc 15:58:19 + +0049251280aaaa 15:58:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:58:22 Zakim, this will be HTML 15:58:23 ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started 15:58:23 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference 15:58:24 Date: 09 April 2009 15:58:33 Zakim, +0049251280aaaa is me 15:58:33 +Julian; got it 15:58:36 aroben has joined #html-wg 15:58:47 +Sam 15:58:54 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile 15:58:54 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 15:58:56 +Mike 15:59:17 +Masinter 15:59:32 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:59:32 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose smedero 15:59:36 aroben_ has joined #html-wg 15:59:36 +[Microsoft] 15:59:40 zakim, mi is me 15:59:40 +ChrisWilson; got it 15:59:48 well, I did scribe recently! 15:59:50 heh 15:59:55 zakim, pick a scribe 15:59:55 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam 16:00:02 zakim, pick a scribe 16:00:02 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam 16:00:12 this is NOT working :-) 16:00:18 zakim, pick a scribe 16:00:18 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisWilson 16:00:48 ok. 16:00:49 +Matt_May 16:01:04 scribenick: ChrisWilson 16:01:39 zakim, who is on the call? 16:01:39 On the phone I see smedero, Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May 16:01:51 Zakim, mute Mike 16:01:51 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Mike 16:02:25 Zakim, mute smedero 16:02:25 smedero should now be muted 16:02:25 sam: looks around for lachlan 16:02:26 Zakim, Mike-Mobile has MikeSmith 16:02:26 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike-Mobile' 16:02:36 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:02:36 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May 16:02:46 action-115? 16:02:46 ACTION-115 -- Michael(tm) Smith to set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 -- due 2009-04-07 -- OPEN 16:02:46 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/115 16:02:47 Title: ACTION-115 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 16:03:06 dsinger has joined #html-wg 16:03:17 q+ 16:03:27 +[Apple] 16:03:28 Ms: didn't realize I had that, will need to move date out +1week 16:03:33 zakim, [apple] has dsinger 16:03:33 +dsinger; got it 16:03:33 trackbot, action-115 due next week 16:03:34 ACTION-115 Set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 due date now next week 16:03:50 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:03:50 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple] 16:03:52 [Apple] has dsinger 16:03:57 ack, julian 16:04:29 ack julian 16:05:00 +Cynthia_Shelly 16:05:16 Regarding ACTION-103: followed up on the mailing list; J. Holsten promised a new draft soonish 16:05:39 action-105? 16:05:40 ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN 16:05:40 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105 16:05:41 Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 16:05:55 on ACTION-103: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Apr/0088.html 16:05:56 Title: Re: Registering the about: URI scheme from Joseph A Holsten on 2009-04-03 (public-html@w3.org from April 2009) (at lists.w3.org) 16:06:03 sam: I've met with Steven Pemberton and others at AC; have posted some outcomes from that discussion 16:06:14 emails didn't get linked to action item 16:06:28 sam: some idea that some extensibility capabilities would meet a lot of needs. 16:06:40 action-105? 16:06:40 ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN 16:06:40 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105 16:06:41 Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 16:06:42 Larry: would be useful if reports were linked to this action 16:06:45 sam: I'll do that. 16:06:59 +Shepazu 16:07:00 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:07:00 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu (muted) 16:07:02 [Apple] has dsinger 16:07:48 dsinger: I'm not confident that putting the two groups together in one room wouldn't cause chaos. 16:08:04 Zakim, who's making noise 16:08:04 I don't understand 'who's making noise', Julian 16:08:08 Zakim, who's making noise? 16:08:21 Julian, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (15%), [Apple] (34%), ChrisWilson (24%), Shepazu (9%) 16:08:34 larry: it's not clear to me that the current chaos is any worse than the chaos that would ensue 16:08:39 zakim, mute chriswilson 16:08:39 ChrisWilson should now be muted 16:08:53 dsinger: I think it would be - both groups would come to a standstill 16:09:31 divergence is distructive 16:09:42 sam: I think dsinger would like to hear confirmation that the XHTML2 group believes in the HTML design principles. 16:09:52 s/distruct/destruct/ 16:10:17 sam: will take action to confirm that 16:10:18 q+ to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues 16:10:22 q+ 16:10:27 I agree that agreement on design principles is highly desirable 16:10:42 ack MikeSmith 16:10:42 MikeSmith, you wanted to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues 16:10:51 q- 16:10:51 ack mike 16:11:34 sam: yes, I did talk to a number of people who were at the AC meeting, including several browser vendors and XHTML2 WG participants. 16:11:44 larry: there were ~20 people in the breakout room. 16:12:16 sam: obviously with the mail I sent yesterday, the discussion is now open to everyone (= the internets) 16:12:55 dsinger: you seem to be making progress, so I'm (hopeful? despite being skeptical?) 16:13:03 q+ 16:13:12 Zakim, drop Mike 16:13:12 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike' 16:13:18 -ChrisWilson 16:13:21 ack j 16:13:35 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile 16:13:35 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 16:13:37 +Mike 16:13:43 q- 16:13:47 julian: sam, where did you send that mail? (shawn answers^^) 16:14:15 zakim, mute mike 16:14:15 Mike should now be muted 16:14:47 larry: i did have a comment - I'd like to distinguish between platform and language features a little better 16:14:56 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:14:56 On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu, Mike (muted) 16:14:57 larry: plugins are another way platform features get added 16:14:59 [Apple] has dsinger 16:15:12 zakim, microsoft is me 16:15:12 +ChrisWilson; got it 16:15:22 [both platform and language features, actually] 16:15:53 larry: it may very well be there are some plugin features that become platform features over time; I don't think the architecture should exclude plugins as a way features get added. 16:16:14 sam, can you repeat that? 16:16:34 sam: is the idea of plugins something that should be factored into the design principles? 16:16:37 larry: most likely 16:17:16 larry: it isn't addressed in the current design principles, but I think it would be a good thing to add 16:17:41 Zakim, unmute me 16:17:41 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:17:48 larry: your post currently only mentions browsers, but plugins add platform features too 16:17:50 Zakim, unmute Mike 16:17:50 Mike should no longer be muted 16:18:14 Mike: I don't agree at all that platform features are added via plugins. 16:18:22 Stevef has joined #html-wg 16:18:38 mike: core platform features are not added by third-party plugins. 16:18:47 larry:never? 16:18:56 mike: never, by definition. 16:19:11 doug: what about SVG? 16:19:17 zakim, unmute me 16:19:17 ChrisWilson was not muted, ChrisWilson 16:19:38 mike: there's an open standard for SVG, it's not 16:20:04 mike: "added" thru the plugin as a language feature, it's added because there's a standard 16:20:59 mike: it's not under the control of the plugin whether it's a language feature or not. 16:21:07 -ChrisWilson 16:21:19 [I wonder if FF extensions could be considered a plugin for these purposes... I guess it depends on the extension] 16:21:23 Zakim, who is making noise? 16:21:28 +[Microsoft] 16:21:30 zakim, microsoft is me 16:21:30 +ChrisWilson; got it 16:21:34 rubys, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (88%), Mike (29%) 16:22:16 larry: if it's a platform extension, it's okay only after it becomes a recommendation, not before? 16:22:29 Zakim, mute Mike 16:22:29 Mike should now be muted 16:23:04 doug: take the example of PDF. It could easily be implemented by a browser. Would that be a platform feature [of HTML]? 16:23:20 doug: that seems like a political not a technical distinction 16:23:38 doug: not that I'm dissing the open web [ed: yeah right] 16:23:58 I guess I don't see what it's useful for us to be trying to define what a "platform feature" is at all 16:24:40 q+ to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all 16:25:20 Hm, surely platform features are required browser behavior...there is UA behavior associated 16:25:45 language features are things like tags you put in your document so that search engines index you better 16:25:46 larry: platform/language extensibility is a good idea; I was just saying it seems to be a legitimate way of extending the web 16:26:36 doug: I tend to agree with larry. If you're going to talk about extending the web in terms of features, what's the practical way of saying "plugins are okay"? 16:27:26 q+ to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language. 16:27:45 larry: if the web platform relies on plugins, breaking plugins would break the web. 16:28:01 there is required browser behavior to enable plugins. the conformance stops at 'invoke the plugin if you have it' 16:28:24 what dsinger said. 16:28:24 doug: I don't think anyone wants to break plugins - I like me some Flash games. 16:28:56 doug: adding new features to enable plugins might put more of a burden on the language, which may or may not be a good thing - at the very least, it's a different thing. 16:29:23 larry: I wasn't suggesting that - just that new CSS, etc. functionality should take into account that plugins shouldn't get broken. 16:30:17 jgraham: notes that there are quite complex issues with plugins and parsing, scripting, etc. 16:30:32 q? 16:30:52 q+ 16:31:12 doug: some of these issues are also appropriate when SVG is referenced, just due to browsing context. 16:31:45 larry: I'll raise an issue on this 16:31:57 q- 16:32:08 ack MikeSmith 16:32:08 MikeSmith, you wanted to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all 16:32:18 Zakim, unmute me 16:32:18 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:32:23 Zakim, unmute Mike 16:32:23 Mike should no longer be muted 16:32:57 mike: larry and doug seem interested in this, so I would suggest they write up a spec for this. 16:33:42 mike: maybe we shouldn't be trying to define what a platform feature is at all. 16:34:15 sam: at the AC mtg, there was some idea that the delta between SVG and, say, RDFa should be captured, because they're different (SVG requires browser impl) 16:34:36 SVG requires browser or browser plugin impl 16:34:44 ack ChrisWilson 16:34:44 ChrisWilson, you wanted to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language. 16:34:51 sam: the language may not need to anoint RDFa, but probably does SVG. 16:35:10 [RDFa doesn't *require* any extra browser support beyond putting them in the DOM, but it could benefit from it (if, for example, it takes the cure that an address is an address, and provides a map option, etc.)] 16:35:21 s/cure/cue/ 16:36:13 sam: anything else on this before we move on? 16:36:57 sam: last I'd heard, it was Rob Sayre's intent to include summary and profile 16:36:59 shepazu, have not some suggestions about RDFa in text/html been predicated on having some form of namespace support in text/html parsers 16:37:16 MikeSmith: that's true 16:37:20 good point 16:38:43 sam: chris, care to say anything in advance of your one due next week on HTML extensibility? 16:39:19 -Matt_May 16:39:21 -smedero 16:39:22 -[Apple] 16:39:23 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:39:24 -Julian 16:39:26 -Sam 16:39:27 -Mike 16:39:34 -Shepazu 16:39:37 chris: just that I agree with your general sentiment that language extensibility is a good thing (based on our experience in IE), but core platform features should be in the language. 16:39:43 sam: with that, let's adjourn 16:39:45 rrsagent: draft minutes 16:39:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 16:40:18 Chair: Sam Ruby 16:40:19 -Masinter 16:41:02 adele has joined #html-wg 16:41:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:41:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html ChrisWilson 16:41:17 Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org) 16:47:43 s/plugin impl/plugin implementation/ 16:49:35 s/Ms:/MikeSmith:/ 16:50:43 (SVG doesn't necessarily require browser implementation - you could emulate much of it with script and (which people have done already, to some extent), or lots and lots of coloured
s) 16:51:10 Philip: or VML, which seems more common 16:51:22 that is, SVG rendered in VML 16:51:26 Indeed 16:52:25 so I still don't see a clear distinction between that and e.g. RDFa which can be emulated with scripts and current HTML parsers creating attributes with localNames like "xmlns:dc" and so on 16:52:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:52:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 16:52:39 Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org) 16:52:55 rrsagent, make log public 16:53:54 ScribeOptions: -final 16:54:12 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:54:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 16:54:13 Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org) 16:54:43 ScribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:54:49 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:54:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 16:54:50 Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org) 16:55:41 rrsagent, bye 16:55:41 I see no action items