IRC log of mediafrag on 2009-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:58:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
11:58:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
11:58:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:58:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mediafrag
11:58:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
11:58:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
11:58:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
11:58:36 [trackbot]
Date: 08 April 2009
11:59:09 [raphael]
11:59:16 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()8:00AM has now started
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11:59:33 [raphael]
Regrets: Michael, Conrad
12:00:06 [raphael]
Scribe: Silvia
12:00:11 [raphael]
scribenick: nessy
12:00:26 [Zakim]
12:00:40 [raphael]
Chair: Erik, Raphael
12:01:27 [Zakim]
12:03:21 [Zakim]
+ +329331aaaa
12:03:47 [raphael]
Present: Silvia, Raphael, Yves, Davy, Erik
12:04:18 [nessy]
Topic: ADMIN
12:04:55 [nessy]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 01st April 2009 telecon:
12:04:55 [nessy]
12:04:58 [raphael]
12:05:05 [davy]
12:05:22 [nessy]
Topic: Upcoming F2F Meeting in Barcelona:
12:05:42 [nessy]
raphael: no teleconf next week but F2F on Thu & Fri
12:05:48 [erik]
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12:05:58 [nessy]
... no teleconf the week after F2F because of WWW conf
12:06:04 [nessy]
... next teleconf is on 29th April
12:06:08 [nessy]
... any objections?
12:06:25 [nessy]
nessy: no objections
12:06:43 [jackjansen]
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12:06:49 [nessy]
raphael: this hour is more convenient for Silvia & Conrad
12:06:50 [jackjansen]
[ot] on my way...
12:06:56 [nessy]
... we keep this hour
12:07:38 [nessy]
Agenda building
12:07:39 [nessy]
12:08:03 [Zakim]
12:08:27 [nessy]
... will assume until 2pm it is reasonable to have Silvia on phone
12:08:51 [nessy]
... will make proposal to put discussion points into time slots
12:09:18 [nessy]
... a discussion on each section of the WD
12:10:34 [nessy]
nessy: suggestion to have another HTTP 2-way / 4-way discussion to get Conrad's input
12:10:46 [nessy]
... wants to be present for that
12:10:59 [nessy]
raphael: is planned and will take place in the morning
12:11:32 [nessy]
12:11:42 [Zakim]
12:11:47 [nessy]
raphael: go through section per section and distribute actions
12:11:57 [nessy]
... Introduction
12:12:54 [nessy]
nessy: volunteers to write the introduction
12:13:05 [erik]
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12:13:08 [nessy]
ACTION: nessy to write introduction
12:13:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - nessy
12:13:17 [nessy]
ACTION: silvia to write introduction
12:13:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-58 - Write introduction [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:13:43 [nessy]
raphael: discussion on order of the first three sections
12:15:15 [raphael]
Silvia: i need to revisit the framework, side conditions
12:15:24 [raphael]
... re: issue with transcoding
12:15:32 [raphael]
... this should go first
12:15:37 [jackjansen]
12:15:52 [raphael]
... and then talk about the use cases and scenarios and ultimately, the dimensions
12:15:59 [raphael]
zakim, ack jackjansen
12:15:59 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
12:16:25 [nessy]
jackjansen: if requirements move up, we need something that gets people in the right frame of mind
12:16:25 [raphael]
Jack: put the requirements first might break the flow of the reading
12:16:58 [raphael]
12:17:31 [nessy]
Silvia: most sections are still independent blocks
12:17:37 [nessy]
... we need lead-over text
12:17:55 [nessy]
... introduction will set the stage, requirements set the framework
12:18:09 [nessy]
Jack: maybe move use cases into appendix
12:18:45 [nessy]
raphael: use cases are core to the understanding or our challenges and provide motivation for the dimensions
12:19:10 [nessy]
... might be interesting to move the "requirements" up - might be renamed to "side conditions"
12:19:27 [nessy]
Jack: agrees to move up "side conditions"
12:19:32 [nessy]
... requirements are really section 5
12:20:23 [nessy]
raphael: new order is 1, 2, 4, 3, 5
12:20:48 [nessy]
.. rename 4 -> side conditions
12:20:53 [nessy]
... rename 5 -> requirements
12:20:56 [nessy]
nessy: agree
12:21:11 [nessy]
Jack: agree
12:21:16 [raphael]
12:21:51 [erik]
what about typical UC per axis (temporal/spatial/track/named) to get the reader acquainted with the problems (and special cases to appendix)?
12:22:32 [nessy]
ACTION: silvia to make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5
12:22:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-59 - Make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5 [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:22:58 [Zakim]
12:23:12 [nessy]
raphael will make structural changes to WD directly after the teleconf
12:23:25 [nessy]
... silvia can then work on it when she has time
12:24:06 [nessy]
erik: there are a lot of use cases and it may be interesting to move some to appendix
12:24:59 [raphael]
Erik: i wonder if the individual use cases should be ordered differently, following the various dimensions: time, space, track, name
12:25:13 [raphael]
Silvia: I think it is better to group them as they are, by functionality
12:25:43 [nessy]
... they make for fast reading and need to be part of the reading flow
12:26:04 [nessy]
raphael: what about moving the out-of-scope cases into a separate section
12:26:17 [nessy]
jack: I like it that the use cases are ordered by usage
12:26:37 [nessy]
.. problem is that there are so many and they slow down reading speed
12:27:00 [nessy]
... 17 different use cases may be too much detail
12:27:20 [nessy]
raphael: original charter had 2 documents - a use cases & requirements ... and a technology document
12:27:28 [nessy]
... we now have all in one document
12:27:39 [nessy]
... we can later split documents again if it is too much to read
12:27:43 [nessy]
... can discuss at F2F
12:27:47 [nessy]
... should leave it for now
12:27:57 [nessy]
... so we have the current status together in a single document
12:28:04 [nessy]
jack: ok leave it as is
12:29:11 [nessy]
nessy: agree
12:29:24 [nessy]
raphael: section 5
12:29:55 [nessy]
... replace the numbers with req-xx
12:30:02 [nessy]
... and move the table to an appendix
12:30:35 [raphael]
Raphael: replace the 1,2,3 in the fitness table by human readable labels: fit, partial, etc.
12:30:36 [nessy]
jack: instead of having the table 5.5, it makes more sense to list the types of capabilities containers have
12:31:59 [nessy]
nessy to add a note to the table & running text that we ask people for input to the table to complete it
12:32:01 [raphael]
Silvia: add also an editorial note in the main text to warn the commnity we need their input to complete this table
12:33:39 [nessy]
nessy: I will add these changes
12:33:53 [nessy]
raphael: section 6
12:33:59 [nessy]
... improved heaps
12:35:16 [nessy]
erik: if we should move stuff to appendix, we can live with that
12:35:26 [nessy]
... table in 6.3 still needs heaps of input
12:36:03 [nessy]
raphael: MPEG-7 has track references
12:37:45 [nessy]
nessy: HTML5 should be removed, since it will do whatever we define
12:40:43 [nessy]
nessy: replace "temporal URI" with "temporal URI/Ogg" to include the track addressing, to
12:41:07 [nessy]
... "Annodex" would be correct, too, but "temporal URI" is the best known spec out of this
12:42:12 [nessy]
raphael: should section 6 be moved down in the document, so we can get specifications first?
12:42:19 [nessy]
erik: I can live with that
12:42:44 [nessy]
raphael: I will move this section down and do all structural changes on document directly after the meeting before anyone else will edit again
12:43:09 [nessy]
jack: editorial suggestion - 6.2 is formatted completely different from 6.1
12:43:21 [nessy]
... formatting of 6.1 is great - could we apply it to 6.2 ?
12:43:53 [nessy]
erik: will make changes
12:44:09 [nessy]
ACTION: erik to apply changes to section 6
12:44:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-60 - Apply changes to section 6 [on Erik Mannens - due 2009-04-15].
12:44:41 [nessy]
raphael: section 7
12:45:07 [nessy]
... in section 7.3 we stop talking about fragments, but talk about sections or segments
12:45:24 [erik]
12:45:25 [nessy]
... 7.3 needs an introductory note
12:45:51 [nessy]
jack: I will create an introductory note and explain that it can be either a fragment or a query
12:46:14 [nessy]
jack: we need some standard terminology
12:46:50 [nessy]
raphael: do we call it dimensions or axes
12:47:00 [nessy]
12:47:41 [nessy]
general consensus on "dimension
12:48:12 [nessy]
jack: do we prefer "temporal" over "time" - "spatial" over "space" - "named" over "name"?
12:48:21 [nessy]
... track will stay track
12:48:21 [raphael]
12:48:35 [nessy]
... all others become "temporal", "spatial", "named"
12:48:42 [nessy]
nessy: +1
12:49:02 [nessy]
jack: I tend to use "clipping" for temporal and "cropping" for spatial
12:49:10 [nessy]
... is that a good idea or should we just use one?
12:50:14 [nessy]
nessy: "clipping" has a different implication for audio ... maybe "cutting"?
12:50:40 [nessy]
jack: but we use "audio clip"
12:50:44 [nessy]
nessy: ok, fair enough
12:51:08 [nessy]
jack: 7.4 might need more structure ... but how
12:51:31 [nessy]
... is still very incomplete
12:51:46 [nessy]
... need to continue collecting semantic issues
12:51:48 [raphael]
Semantic issue:
12:51:59 [nessy]
... restructure when we have a more complete collection
12:52:24 [nessy]
nessy: suggestion to add a note to the section explaining the need to contribute more semantic issues
12:52:28 [nessy]
jack: ok, will do
12:52:39 [nessy]
raphael: section 8
12:52:52 [nessy]
... Yves pointed out that 4-way contained errors
12:54:00 [nessy]
Yves: did not understand from temporal URI where the resolution of time-bytes happens
12:55:28 [nessy]
nessy: I will go back and read that section again and make sure the 4-way is correctly specified
12:55:41 [nessy]
ACTION: silvia and conrad to review 4-way handshake specification
12:55:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-61 - And conrad to review 4-way handshake specification [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-04-15].
12:55:52 [Yves]
and I note that there is still a discussion on the ML ;)
12:56:19 [nessy]
raphael: should reply be 204 in initial handshake for 4-way handshake
12:56:32 [nessy]
Yves: if you're sending content, then no
12:57:29 [nessy]
jack: that is missing in the specification
12:57:39 [nessy]
nessy: header is being sent in first handshake
12:57:54 [nessy]
jack: in 2-way handshake this may be missing, too - but it's more complicated
12:58:19 [nessy]
raphael: silvia & conrad - please make changes in wiki ... I will then sync the wiki with the WD myself
12:58:24 [nessy]
nessy: ok
12:58:45 [raphael]
12:58:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-55 -- Yves Lafon to change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
12:58:45 [trackbot]
12:58:48 [nessy]
rapahel: quick action review
12:59:01 [raphael]
close ACTION-55
12:59:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-55 Change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled closed
12:59:06 [raphael]
12:59:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-56 -- Yves Lafon to change the formal grammar to have unreserved characters + %-escaped ones in utf8string and _not_ a set of pchars -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
12:59:06 [trackbot]
12:59:22 [raphael]
close ACTION-56
12:59:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-56 Change the formal grammar to have unreserved characters + %-escaped ones in utf8string and _not_ a set of pchars closed
12:59:28 [nessy]
close ACTION-55
12:59:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-55 Change the formal grammar to have 'percent' spelled closed
12:59:49 [raphael]
Yves: I have just done a small modification in the ABNF synta
13:00:15 [nessy]
Yves: I added pchar to make it consistent
13:00:23 [raphael]
Jack: to move these changes in the WD
13:00:33 [raphael]
13:00:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-49 -- Yves Lafon to draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units (completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) -- due 2009-03-25 -- OPEN
13:00:33 [trackbot]
13:00:51 [nessy]
still open
13:00:57 [raphael]
close ACTION-51
13:00:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-51 Summarize the content of the wiki page to put in the main document, with few examples and a short story closed
13:01:09 [nessy]
erik finalized that
13:01:12 [raphael]
13:01:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-57 -- Jack Jansen to enter formally in the tracker the ISSUE he has found, regarding a) transcoding and b) spatial cropping -- due 2009-04-08 -- OPEN
13:01:12 [trackbot]
13:01:18 [raphael]
close ACTION-57
13:01:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-57 Enter formally in the tracker the ISSUE he has found, regarding a) transcoding and b) spatial cropping closed
13:01:24 [nessy]
jack finalized 57
13:01:41 [nessy]
Topic: AOB
13:02:06 [nessy]
raphael: we will not publish document tomorrow
13:02:16 [nessy]
... let's aim for publication on Tuesday
13:02:49 [nessy]
... would prefer making the request to publish it before the F2F because the WWW conference will delay it further otherwise
13:03:08 [nessy]
nessy: +1
13:03:35 [nessy]
raphael: thanks for attending conference and will see you next week
13:03:38 [Zakim]
13:03:39 [Zakim]
13:03:45 [Zakim]
13:03:47 [Zakim]
13:03:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
13:03:48 [Zakim]
13:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:03:50 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()8:00AM has ended
13:03:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were raphael, nessy, Yves, +329331aaaa, Erik, jackjansen
13:03:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:05:32 [raphael]
will give it a try
13:05:45 [raphael]
type: s/ok/Topic: Actions Review
13:06:13 [raphael]
s/ok/Topic: Actions Review
13:06:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:09:09 [nessy]
s/rapahel: quick action review/Topic: action review/
13:12:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:14:08 [raphael]
zakim, bye
13:14:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:15:24 [davy]
davy has joined #mediafrag
13:18:13 [raphael]
oh, you read in my mind :-)
13:18:15 [raphael]
I'm hapy
13:18:21 [raphael]
13:18:37 [raphael]
zakim, bye
13:18:47 [raphael]
RRSAgent, bye
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: nessy to write introduction [1]
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: silvia to write introduction [2]
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: silvia to make these changes and other changes to sections 1-5 [3]
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: erik to apply changes to section 6 [4]
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recorded in
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: silvia and conrad to review 4-way handshake specification [5]
13:18:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in