IRC log of css on 2009-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:36:13 [RRSAgent]
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15:36:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-irc
15:36:21 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:36:21 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:45:00 [MikeSmith]
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15:48:42 [glazou]
hi MikeSmith
15:49:07 [Lachy]
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15:49:36 [MikeSmith]
glazou: konban wa
15:55:23 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:30 [Zakim]
+dsinger
15:55:51 [dsinger_]
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15:56:12 [dsinger_]
Zakim, mute me
15:56:12 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:56:25 [fantasai]
dsinger_: type /nick dsinger
15:56:34 [dsinger_]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:50 [dsinger_]
Zakim, mute dsinger
15:56:50 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger_, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:57:01 [fantasai]
dsinger_: type /nick dsinger into your IRC client
15:57:09 [fantasai]
dsinger_: then Zakim will recognize you
15:57:15 [dsinger_]
Zakim, i am dsinger
15:57:15 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
15:57:17 [Zakim]
+glazou
15:57:37 [dsinger_]
Zakim, mute me
15:57:37 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
15:57:59 [MikeSmith]
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15:59:14 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou
15:59:21 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
15:59:39 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
15:59:39 [Zakim]
+David_Baron; got it
15:59:42 [sylvaing]
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16:00:18 [melinda]
melinda has joined #CSS
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:56 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:00:56 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:01:04 [dsinger_]
Can we discuss the sophia agenda briefly?
16:01:10 [ChrisL]
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16:01:26 [dsinger_]
T u
16:01:31 [glazou]
np
16:01:34 [Zakim]
+plinss
16:01:48 [glazou]
I only forgot to add it on the agenda but that was on the list
16:02:05 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:02:15 [Zakim]
+Melinda_Grant
16:02:24 [Zakim]
+??P13
16:02:29 [emilyw]
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16:02:31 [fantasai]
Zakim, ??P13 is me
16:02:32 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:03:10 [glazou]
ok emilyw
16:05:14 [dsinger_]
Chris asks why agenda is member only but minutes are public
16:06:09 [dsinger_]
Admin is member only, tech is public
16:06:25 [ChrisL]
scribenick: chrisl
16:06:29 [ChrisL]
scribe: chris
16:06:33 [ChrisL]
chair: daniel
16:06:34 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:06:56 [Zakim]
+Howcome
16:07:12 [ChrisL]
topic: agenda - member or public
16:07:31 [ChrisL]
dg: chris suggests sending agenda to the public list
16:07:37 [ChrisL]
bb: why? no advantage
16:08:21 [ChrisL]
dd: agenda almost always public. any member -specific stuff is rare and can be discussed separately
16:08:43 [dsinger_]
I think the current arr. Is odd but right
16:08:48 [ChrisL]
pl: can post the agenda minus the dial in numbers to the public list
16:09:01 [ChrisL]
db: publ;ic may have useful feedback
16:09:10 [fantasai]
dg: no, not dial in numbers, just topics
16:09:13 [ChrisL]
mg: if agenda is early enough
16:09:52 [ChrisL]
bb: don't want to do this, writing for the public takes to much time. unecessary
16:10:01 [ChrisL]
dg: specific example?
16:10:10 [ChrisL]
bb: want to hide spelling mistakes
16:10:19 [glazou]
s/dg/sg
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16:11:07 [fantasai]
pl: how about we send the agenda to the members mailing list and send a synopsis to the public mailing list
16:11:16 [dsinger_]
Has any public asked?
16:11:19 [ChrisL]
pl: how about a synopsis of agenda sent to public, plus fuller agenda to member list
16:11:37 [ChrisL]
cl: dave - no
16:12:04 [dsinger_]
They see the minutes
16:12:21 [ChrisL]
db: how would they ask for it without knowing it exists
16:12:45 [ChrisL]
dg: minor issue, no consensus to move to public agenda.
16:12:56 [dsinger_]
It is work to fix, and dpes not seem worth it
16:13:02 [ChrisL]
... could take more time to sort through public feedback before meeting
16:13:17 [ChrisL]
cl: ok, thanks for considering it
16:13:29 [fantasai]
dg: we stay as we are for the time being
16:13:29 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
16:13:29 [ChrisL]
topic: CSS2.1 Issue followup
16:13:32 [szilles]
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16:13:43 [ChrisL]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
16:13:43 [ChrisL]
Everyone had an action to read Bert's email and prepare for discussion
16:13:53 [ChrisL]
ee: made comments in email
16:13:58 [dbaron]
the " apple][ {color: red}" is actually a lot more complicated than Bert said
16:14:00 [fantasai]
no, actually, last week's minutes
16:14:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: shouldn't this have been sent to the public mailing list?
16:14:17 [ChrisL]
ee: wasn't berts comment supposed to be sent to public list?
16:14:41 [arronei]
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16:14:43 [ChrisL]
db: contents of email seem reasonable but i don't see a proposal
16:14:54 [ChrisL]
... two examples look a bit complex
16:14:56 [howcome]
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16:15:19 [dbaron]
complex in that they're more complicated than stated because of ()/[]/{}-matching
16:15:25 [ChrisL]
bb: my preference is to not do anything
16:15:32 [ChrisL]
... this is as far as I got
16:16:23 [szilles]
+1 for Judy's summary
16:16:32 [ChrisL]
ee: it doesn't adress selectors. want it to cover selectors and declaration blocks
16:16:44 [glazou]
szilles: ?
16:17:02 [ChrisL]
... idea that you match brackets and quotes is clear enough without specific microparsong rules
16:17:06 [fantasai]
s/selectors/at-rules/
16:17:08 [szilles]
s/+1 for Judy's summary//
16:17:41 [ChrisL]
ee: there is an error in the spec as we changed the wording and introduced a new issue
16:18:12 [ChrisL]
... proposal was that the part on malformed declarations was changed to stateents
16:18:21 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
16:18:28 [fantasai]
There's a rule about malformed declarations
16:18:28 [ChrisL]
... should be "statements and declarations"
16:18:32 [fantasai]
yea
16:19:04 [ChrisL]
bb: not sure you always know if you are in a statement or not
16:19:13 [ChrisL]
ee: in one if you are not in a declaration
16:19:26 [ChrisL]
..@rule is always a statement
16:19:38 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:19:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou, [Mozilla], [Microsoft], plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome
16:19:40 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:19:40 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:19:46 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:19:52 [Zakim]
-dsinger
16:19:56 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:19:56 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:19:58 [ChrisL]
ee: if you are in a decl skip to end of decl, else skip to end of that statement
16:20:09 [ChrisL]
bb: no statements inside an @edia
16:20:17 [ChrisL]
s/edia/media/
16:20:34 [fantasai]
bb: they look like statements, but they aren't according to the grammar
16:21:04 [ChrisL]
bb: hence the complex email, there are different types of @rules. @media and @page are different
16:21:30 [ChrisL]
bb: take last example in my email
16:21:55 [ChrisL]
... you are at the top level then you see an invalid string. have not started the first statement
16:22:10 [ChrisL]
... have to assume you are unless you are clearly not eg a comment
16:22:46 [ChrisL]
bb: would like it to be as simple as elika says but doubt it is that simple
16:23:03 [ChrisL]
ee: only unclear case is inside @page in css3
16:23:28 [ChrisL]
... so suggest dulplicating the malfored rule for stateents, then add more detail in css3 paged media
16:23:43 [ChrisL]
s/dulp/dupl/
16:23:55 [ChrisL]
dg: good compromise. is it acceptable?
16:24:15 [ChrisL]
bb: imples an error inside an @rule causes whole @rule to be ignored?
16:24:22 [ChrisL]
ee: depends on where it occurs
16:24:30 [dbaron]
I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
16:24:37 [ChrisL]
... not if the @rulke has declarations.
16:24:58 [ChrisL]
... trap points are stzatements and declarations
16:25:06 [glazou]
dbaron: yes
16:25:31 [ChrisL]
dg: what are the chars that are matched?
16:25:36 [glazou]
s/sg/sg
16:25:37 [ChrisL]
{ ( "
16:25:40 [glazou]
s/dg/sg
16:25:47 [fantasai]
ee: brackets and quotes
16:25:50 [glazou]
ChrisL: that's sylvain galineau
16:25:55 [sylvaing]
yeah so content:"}" does not cause havoc
16:25:56 [dbaron]
also [
16:26:01 [fantasai]
and '
16:26:03 [fantasai]
:)
16:26:12 [sylvaing]
()/{}/[]/""/''
16:26:23 [ChrisL]
dg: any objections to elika's proposal
16:26:36 [ChrisL]
(none heard)
16:26:43 [ChrisL]
bb: ok lets try it
16:27:08 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements (statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)
16:27:19 [ChrisL]
resolution: duplicate section on malformed declarations for malformed stateents
16:27:30 [ChrisL]
db: I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
16:27:49 [ChrisL]
... make the production that covers all things that get ignored
16:27:57 [ChrisL]
.... this is a rather big project
16:28:26 [ChrisL]
dg: I agree in principle, on desirability and timeline
16:28:27 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html
16:28:46 [ChrisL]
Topic: Issues with CSS2.1 Grammar
16:29:08 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:29:24 [ChrisL]
dg: should a class be a name instead of an ident?
16:29:29 [ChrisL]
db: why?
16:29:43 [ChrisL]
ee: think he missed the point odf the section
16:29:52 [ChrisL]
dg: and why to escape the first digit
16:30:15 [ChrisL]
ee: comparing css1 and css2, think he is confused. can no longer do this
16:30:21 [ChrisL]
dg: agree, not an issue
16:30:27 [ChrisL]
resolved: non-issue
16:30:27 [dbaron]
somebody should respond :-)
16:30:53 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:31:00 [ChrisL]
action: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue
16:31:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-138 - Respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-04-15].
16:31:13 [sylvaing]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:31:40 [ChrisL]
bb: yes, the S token is ambiguous
16:32:15 [ChrisL]
bb: ok to change the grammar
16:32:34 [ChrisL]
dg: so remove s* from end of import?
16:32:36 [ChrisL]
bb: yes
16:33:10 [ChrisL]
bert's response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:33:17 [Bert]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:33:55 [ChrisL]
pl: agree
16:34:34 [ChrisL]
bb: yves says its easier if no non terminals can produce an empty string
16:34:40 [ChrisL]
... can accept that
16:34:47 [ChrisL]
dg: any objection?
16:34:51 [ChrisL]
(non heard)
16:35:01 [ChrisL]
dg: choices in berts email seem harmless
16:35:11 [ChrisL]
... and obvious
16:35:26 [ChrisL]
resolved: accept berts proposal on gramar
16:35:42 [ChrisL]
action: bert make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:35:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-139 - Make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html [on Bert Bos - due 2009-04-15].
16:36:15 [ChrisL]
sg: do we have any outstanding 2.1 issues before publication?
16:36:30 [ChrisL]
dg: no, so lets publish and update as soon as possible
16:37:01 [ChrisL]
ee: bert and I will check all the edits have been made
16:37:10 [ChrisL]
db: so i put an issue on the end of the list
16:37:25 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:37:34 [ChrisL]
... font-weight bolder and lighter, want to backport from css3 to css 2.1
16:37:39 [dbaron]
issue 111
16:37:39 [dsinger]
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16:37:57 [ChrisL]
cl: is it simple to specify?
16:38:08 [ChrisL]
db: yes but no proposed text yet
16:38:18 [ChrisL]
bb: prefer to see actual text
16:38:23 [ChrisL]
(several) yes
16:38:35 [ChrisL]
db: fine to publish but there is more stuff to do
16:38:51 [ChrisL]
ee: boris has some pendingf issues on anonymous tales still to come
16:39:03 [ChrisL]
resolved: publish and update to css 2.1 asap
16:39:14 [fantasai]
Bert, we should schedule a day to coordinate on 2.1
16:39:16 [ChrisL]
topic: Fallback color on background-image
16:39:28 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0536.html
16:39:53 [ChrisL]
ee: at f2f we decided I would propose text so we don't need to discuss this now
16:39:59 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html
16:40:03 [ChrisL]
topic: Fallback on border-image
16:40:03 [glazou]
http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
16:40:46 [ChrisL]
dg: wh can summarise this?
16:41:10 [ChrisL]
ee: several open issues from discussions with dave hyatt, brad kempers proposal adresses all of them
16:41:18 [ChrisL]
... look at his pictures
16:41:54 [ChrisL]
... if image fails to load, layout jumps around. also layout changes depending on border-image support
16:42:09 [ChrisL]
... so want it to not affect border-width
16:42:16 [ChrisL]
... example with a jutting corner
16:42:28 [ChrisL]
... make sa lot of sense
16:43:02 [ChrisL]
... also says designers want an image where layout aligns with a given point of the image, wants to allow some overflow
16:43:24 [ChrisL]
... minor issues to discuss on mailing list, precise syntax, but we should adopt this
16:43:31 [ChrisL]
hyatt anr roc in gfavour
16:43:36 [ChrisL]
s/gf/f/
16:43:45 [dbaron]
s/anr/and/
16:44:09 [ChrisL]
dg: demoed boder image, people were scared by the nuber of arguments and this adds four more. its hard to remember
16:44:30 [ChrisL]
ee: maybe a shorthand with individual properties like border-image-offset
16:44:49 [ChrisL]
.. more understandable at expense of adding more properties
16:45:08 [ChrisL]
dg: public wants it to be simpler and easier to understand. need to look at very carefully
16:45:19 [ChrisL]
... seems to meet web designer's wishes
16:45:36 [ChrisL]
bb: what if the corerr image is wider than the box itself?
16:45:46 [ChrisL]
ee: probably it gets clipped
16:46:03 [ChrisL]
db: there is some rule to explain how to handle this
16:46:11 [ChrisL]
ee: needs to be worked out in detsail
16:46:31 [ChrisL]
dg: any objection to moving forward on this proposal
16:46:40 [ChrisL]
hl: not studied in detail yet
16:47:07 [ChrisL]
dg: so, do we adopt this direction and develop it further?
16:47:18 [ChrisL]
... main issue is relayout which is a big issue
16:47:27 [ChrisL]
ee: hyatt raised this also
16:47:33 [ChrisL]
dg: does make sense
16:47:43 [ChrisL]
dg: any disagreement?
16:47:54 [ChrisL]
(none heard)
16:48:11 [ChrisL]
dg: several options, functional notation or shorthand
16:48:25 [fantasai]
sg: I like the proposal, but usability of the syntax is a concern
16:49:23 [ChrisL]
resolved: adopt this direction to avoid relayout but make the syntax easier to understand
16:51:35 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:51:52 [ChrisL]
topic: next f2f in sophia
16:51:54 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009
16:52:06 [ChrisL]
dg: need agenda items to help people with travel planning
16:52:14 [ChrisL]
ee: pleae add topics to the wiki
16:53:05 [ChrisL]
ds: no specific ones to suggest but might be difficult getting apple dev there as right before out dev conference
16:53:07 [Bert]
Currently known topics: test suites, and grid/matric/template layouts
16:53:19 [ChrisL]
sz: last day of japan f2f should have a list of topics
16:53:23 [ChrisL]
ee: will add them
16:54:00 [ChrisL]
ds: three day meeting all day?
16:54:03 [ChrisL]
dg: yes
16:54:22 [ChrisL]
dg: any other items?
16:54:47 [ChrisL]
hl: think ing on colun break vs page break. any strong opinions?
16:54:58 [ChrisL]
ee: melinda and i discussing, no opinions yet
16:55:39 [ChrisL]
hl: want to bring back the column-break-{before, after, inside} rather than having this in the page properties
16:55:56 [ChrisL]
sz: then you have an interaction problem
16:56:05 [ChrisL]
hl: yes, needs to be defined
16:56:10 [melinda]
I'm kinda leaning the same way... maybe with a shorthand to combine them...???
16:56:16 [ChrisL]
s/colun/column/
16:56:59 [ChrisL]
hl: yes, shorthand could be good. will propose text
16:57:06 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
16:57:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
16:57:11 [ChrisL]
adjourned
16:57:13 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
16:57:14 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
16:57:14 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:57:16 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:57:16 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:57:17 [Zakim]
-Howcome
16:57:20 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
16:57:33 [Zakim]
-Bert
16:57:42 [Zakim]
-glazou
16:58:01 [Bert]
Fantasai, for the CSS 2.1 issues, any day is fine starting next Tuesday.
16:58:07 [Zakim]
-fantasai
16:58:09 [Zakim]
-plinss
16:58:21 [ChrisL]
meeting: css wg telcon
16:58:40 [Zakim]
-Melinda_Grant
16:58:41 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:58:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
16:59:07 [ChrisL]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0020.html
16:59:11 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
17:03:28 [fantasai]
Bert: ok
17:03:34 [fantasai]
Bert: My schedules' pretty flexible
17:03:50 [fantasai]
Bert: how about I'll go through the issues list this week and update it to match the minutes
17:04:09 [fantasai]
Bert: and then next Tuesday you can go through and make sure all the edits are in
17:04:19 [Bert]
OK
17:04:21 [fantasai]
Bert: I'll review them on Tuesday
17:04:30 [fantasai]
Bert: since my timezone is later :)
17:04:42 [fantasai]
Bert: and if there's any remaining issues you can fix them Wednesday before the telecon
17:04:48 [fantasai]
Bert: so we can get a resolution to publish
17:05:11 [fantasai]
Bert: sounds good?
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