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15:36:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-irc
15:36:21 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:36:21 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:45:00 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #css
15:48:42 <glazou> hi MikeSmith 
15:49:07 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
15:49:36 <MikeSmith> glazou: konban wa
15:55:23 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:30 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:55:51 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:56:12 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
15:56:12 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:56:25 <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger
15:56:34 <dsinger_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:50 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute dsinger
15:56:50 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:57:01 <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger into your IRC client
15:57:09 <fantasai> dsinger_: then Zakim will recognize you
15:57:15 <dsinger_> Zakim, i am dsinger
15:57:15 <Zakim> ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
15:57:17 <Zakim> +glazou
15:57:37 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
15:57:37 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
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15:59:14 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou
15:59:21 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
15:59:39 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
15:59:39 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
15:59:42 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:00:18 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
16:00:30 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:56 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:00:56 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:01:04 <dsinger_> Can we discuss the sophia agenda briefly?
16:01:10 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:01:26 <dsinger_> T u
16:01:31 <glazou> np
16:01:34 <Zakim> +plinss
16:01:48 <glazou> I only forgot to add it on the agenda but that was on the list
16:02:05 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:02:15 <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
16:02:24 <Zakim> +??P13
16:02:29 <emilyw> emilyw has joined #css
16:02:31 <fantasai> Zakim, ??P13 is me
16:02:32 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:03:10 <glazou> ok emilyw 
16:05:14 <dsinger_> Chris asks why agenda is member only but minutes are public
16:06:09 <dsinger_> Admin is member only, tech is public
16:06:25 <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
16:06:29 <ChrisL> scribe: chris
16:06:33 <ChrisL> chair: daniel
16:06:34 <Zakim> +Bert
16:06:56 <Zakim> +Howcome
16:07:12 <ChrisL> topic: agenda - member or public
16:07:31 <ChrisL> dg: chris suggests sending agenda to the public list
16:07:37 <ChrisL> bb: why? no advantage
16:08:21 <ChrisL> dd: agenda almost always public. any member -specific stuff is rare and can be discussed separately
16:08:43 <dsinger_> I think the current arr. Is odd but right
16:08:48 <ChrisL> pl: can post the agenda minus the dial in numbers to the public list
16:09:01 <ChrisL> db: publ;ic may have useful feedback
16:09:10 <fantasai> dg: no, not dial in numbers, just topics
16:09:13 <ChrisL> mg: if agenda is early enough
16:09:52 <ChrisL> bb: don't want to do this, writing for the public takes to much time. unecessary
16:10:01 <ChrisL> dg: specific example?
16:10:10 <ChrisL> bb: want to hide spelling mistakes
16:10:19 <glazou> s/dg/sg
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16:11:07 <fantasai> pl: how about we send the agenda to the members mailing list and send a synopsis to the public mailing list
16:11:16 <dsinger_> Has any public asked?
16:11:19 <ChrisL> pl: how about a synopsis of agenda sent to public, plus fuller agenda to member list
16:11:37 <ChrisL> cl: dave - no
16:12:04 <dsinger_> They see the minutes
16:12:21 <ChrisL> db: how would they ask for it without knowing it exists
16:12:45 <ChrisL> dg: minor issue, no consensus to move to public agenda.
16:12:56 <dsinger_> It is work to fix, and dpes not seem worth it
16:13:02 <ChrisL> ... could take more time to sort through public feedback before meeting
16:13:17 <ChrisL> cl: ok, thanks for considering it
16:13:29 <fantasai> dg: we stay as we are for the time being
16:13:29 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
16:13:29 <ChrisL> topic: CSS2.1 Issue followup
16:13:32 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:13:43 <ChrisL> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
16:13:43 <ChrisL> Everyone had an action to read Bert's email and prepare for discussion
16:13:53 <ChrisL> ee: made comments in email
16:13:58 <dbaron> the "     apple][  {color: red}" is actually a lot more complicated than Bert said
16:14:00 <fantasai> no, actually, last week's minutes
16:14:17 <fantasai> fantasai: shouldn't this have been sent to the public mailing list?
16:14:17 <ChrisL> ee: wasn't berts comment supposed to be sent to public list?
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16:14:43 <ChrisL> db: contents of email seem reasonable but i don't see a proposal
16:14:54 <ChrisL> ... two examples look a bit complex
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16:15:19 <dbaron> complex in that they're more complicated than stated because of ()/[]/{}-matching
16:15:25 <ChrisL> bb: my preference is to not do anything
16:15:32 <ChrisL> ... this is as far as I got
16:16:23 <szilles> +1 for Judy's summary
16:16:32 <ChrisL> ee: it doesn't adress selectors.  want it to cover selectors and declaration blocks
16:16:44 <glazou> szilles: ?
16:17:02 <ChrisL> ... idea that you match brackets and quotes is clear enough without specific microparsong rules
16:17:06 <fantasai> s/selectors/at-rules/
16:17:08 <szilles> s/+1 for Judy's summary//
16:17:41 <ChrisL> ee: there is an error in the spec as we changed the wording and introduced a new issue
16:18:12 <ChrisL> ... proposal was that the part on malformed declarations was changed to stateents
16:18:21 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
16:18:28 <fantasai> There's a rule about malformed declarations
16:18:28 <ChrisL> ... should be "statements and declarations"
16:18:32 <fantasai> yea
16:19:04 <ChrisL> bb: not sure you always know if you are in a statement or not
16:19:13 <ChrisL> ee: in one if you are not in a declaration
16:19:26 <ChrisL> ..@rule is always a statement
16:19:38 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:19:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou, [Mozilla], [Microsoft], plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome
16:19:40 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:19:40 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:19:46 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:19:52 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:19:56 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:19:56 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:19:58 <ChrisL> ee: if you are in a decl skip to end of decl, else skip to end of that statement
16:20:09 <ChrisL> bb: no statements inside an @edia
16:20:17 <ChrisL> s/edia/media/
16:20:34 <fantasai> bb: they look like statements, but they aren't according to the grammar
16:21:04 <ChrisL> bb: hence the complex email, there are different types of @rules. @media and @page are different
16:21:30 <ChrisL> bb: take last example in my email
16:21:55 <ChrisL> ... you are at the top level then you see an invalid string. have not started the first statement
16:22:10 <ChrisL> ... have to assume you are unless you are clearly not eg a comment
16:22:46 <ChrisL> bb: would like it to be as simple as elika says but doubt it is that simple
16:23:03 <ChrisL> ee: only unclear case is inside @page in css3
16:23:28 <ChrisL> ... so suggest dulplicating the malfored rule for stateents, then add more detail in css3 paged media
16:23:43 <ChrisL> s/dulp/dupl/
16:23:55 <ChrisL> dg: good compromise. is it acceptable?
16:24:15 <ChrisL> bb: imples an error inside an @rule causes whole @rule to be ignored?
16:24:22 <ChrisL> ee: depends on where it occurs
16:24:30 <dbaron> I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
16:24:37 <ChrisL> ... not if the @rulke has declarations.
16:24:58 <ChrisL> ... trap points are stzatements and declarations
16:25:06 <glazou> dbaron: yes
16:25:31 <ChrisL> dg: what are the chars that are matched?
16:25:36 <glazou> s/sg/sg
16:25:37 <ChrisL> { ( "
16:25:40 <glazou> s/dg/sg
16:25:47 <fantasai> ee: brackets and quotes
16:25:50 <glazou> ChrisL: that's sylvain galineau
16:25:55 <sylvaing> yeah so content:"}" does not cause havoc
16:25:56 <dbaron> also [
16:26:01 <fantasai> and '
16:26:03 <fantasai> :)
16:26:12 <sylvaing> ()/{}/[]/""/''
16:26:23 <ChrisL> dg: any objections to elika's proposal
16:26:36 <ChrisL> (none heard)
16:26:43 <ChrisL> bb: ok lets try it
16:27:08 <fantasai> RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements (statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)
16:27:19 <ChrisL> resolution: duplicate section on malformed declarations for malformed stateents
16:27:30 <ChrisL> db:  I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
16:27:49 <ChrisL> ... make the production that covers all things that get ignored
16:27:57 <ChrisL> .... this is a rather big project
16:28:26 <ChrisL> dg: I agree in principle, on desirability and timeline
16:28:27 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html
16:28:46 <ChrisL> Topic: Issues with CSS2.1 Grammar
16:29:08 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:29:24 <ChrisL> dg: should a class be a name instead of an ident?
16:29:29 <ChrisL> db: why?
16:29:43 <ChrisL> ee: think he missed the point odf the section
16:29:52 <ChrisL> dg: and why to escape the first digit
16:30:15 <ChrisL> ee: comparing css1 and css2, think he is confused. can no longer do this
16:30:21 <ChrisL> dg: agree, not an issue
16:30:27 <ChrisL> resolved: non-issue
16:30:27 <dbaron> somebody should respond :-)
16:30:53 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:31:00 <ChrisL> action: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident  is not an issue
16:31:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Respond to yves saying why ident  is not an issue [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-04-15].
16:31:13 <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
16:31:40 <ChrisL> bb: yes, the S token is ambiguous
16:32:15 <ChrisL> bb: ok to change the grammar
16:32:34 <ChrisL> dg: so remove s* from end of import?
16:32:36 <ChrisL> bb: yes
16:33:10 <ChrisL> bert's response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:33:17 <Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:33:55 <ChrisL> pl: agree
16:34:34 <ChrisL> bb: yves says its easier if no non terminals can produce an empty string
16:34:40 <ChrisL> ... can accept that
16:34:47 <ChrisL> dg: any objection?
16:34:51 <ChrisL> (non heard)
16:35:01 <ChrisL> dg: choices in berts email seem harmless
16:35:11 <ChrisL> ... and obvious
16:35:26 <ChrisL> resolved: accept berts proposal on gramar
16:35:42 <ChrisL> action: bert make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
16:35:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html [on Bert Bos - due 2009-04-15].
16:36:15 <ChrisL> sg: do we have any outstanding 2.1 issues before publication?
16:36:30 <ChrisL> dg: no, so lets publish and update as soon as possible
16:37:01 <ChrisL> ee: bert and I will check all the edits have been made
16:37:10 <ChrisL> db: so i put an issue on the end of the list
16:37:25 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:37:34 <ChrisL> ... font-weight bolder and lighter, want to backport from css3 to css 2.1
16:37:39 <dbaron> issue 111
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16:37:57 <ChrisL> cl: is it simple to specify?
16:38:08 <ChrisL> db: yes but no proposed text yet
16:38:18 <ChrisL> bb: prefer to see actual text
16:38:23 <ChrisL> (several) yes
16:38:35 <ChrisL> db: fine to publish but there is more stuff to do
16:38:51 <ChrisL> ee: boris has some pendingf issues on anonymous tales still to come
16:39:03 <ChrisL> resolved: publish and update to css 2.1 asap
16:39:14 <fantasai> Bert, we should schedule a day to coordinate on 2.1
16:39:16 <ChrisL> topic: Fallback color on background-image
16:39:28 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0536.html
16:39:53 <ChrisL> ee: at f2f we decided I would propose text so we don't need to discuss this now
16:39:59 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html
16:40:03 <ChrisL> topic: Fallback on border-image
16:40:03 <glazou> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
16:40:46 <ChrisL> dg: wh can summarise this?
16:41:10 <ChrisL> ee: several open issues from discussions with dave hyatt, brad kempers proposal adresses all of them
16:41:18 <ChrisL> ... look at his pictures
16:41:54 <ChrisL> ... if image fails to load, layout jumps around. also layout changes depending on border-image support
16:42:09 <ChrisL> ... so want it to not affect border-width
16:42:16 <ChrisL> ... example with a jutting corner
16:42:28 <ChrisL> ... make sa lot of sense
16:43:02 <ChrisL> ... also says designers want an image where layout aligns with a given point of the image, wants to allow some overflow
16:43:24 <ChrisL> ... minor issues to discuss on mailing list, precise syntax, but we should adopt this
16:43:31 <ChrisL> hyatt anr roc in gfavour
16:43:36 <ChrisL> s/gf/f/
16:43:45 <dbaron> s/anr/and/
16:44:09 <ChrisL> dg: demoed boder image, people were scared by the nuber of arguments and this adds four more. its hard to remember
16:44:30 <ChrisL> ee: maybe a shorthand with individual properties like border-image-offset
16:44:49 <ChrisL> .. more understandable at expense of adding more properties
16:45:08 <ChrisL> dg: public wants it to be simpler and easier to understand. need to look at very carefully
16:45:19 <ChrisL> ... seems to meet web designer's wishes
16:45:36 <ChrisL> bb: what if the corerr image is wider than the box itself?
16:45:46 <ChrisL> ee: probably it gets clipped
16:46:03 <ChrisL> db: there is some rule to explain how to handle this
16:46:11 <ChrisL> ee: needs to be worked out in detsail
16:46:31 <ChrisL> dg: any objection to moving forward on this proposal
16:46:40 <ChrisL> hl: not studied in detail yet
16:47:07 <ChrisL> dg: so, do we adopt this direction and develop it further?
16:47:18 <ChrisL> ... main issue is relayout which is a big issue
16:47:27 <ChrisL> ee: hyatt raised this also
16:47:33 <ChrisL> dg: does make sense
16:47:43 <ChrisL> dg: any disagreement?
16:47:54 <ChrisL> (none heard)
16:48:11 <ChrisL> dg: several options, functional notation or shorthand
16:48:25 <fantasai> sg: I like the proposal, but usability of the syntax is a concern
16:49:23 <ChrisL> resolved: adopt this direction to avoid relayout but make the syntax easier to understand
16:51:35 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:51:52 <ChrisL> topic: next f2f in sophia
16:51:54 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009
16:52:06 <ChrisL> dg: need agenda items to help people with travel planning
16:52:14 <ChrisL> ee: pleae add topics to the wiki
16:53:05 <ChrisL> ds: no specific ones to suggest but might be difficult getting apple dev there as right before out dev conference
16:53:07 <Bert> Currently known topics: test suites, and grid/matric/template layouts
16:53:19 <ChrisL> sz: last day of japan f2f should have a list of topics
16:53:23 <ChrisL> ee: will add them
16:54:00 <ChrisL> ds: three day meeting all day?
16:54:03 <ChrisL> dg: yes
16:54:22 <ChrisL> dg: any other items?
16:54:47 <ChrisL> hl: think ing on colun break vs page break. any strong opinions?
16:54:58 <ChrisL> ee: melinda and i discussing, no opinions yet
16:55:39 <ChrisL> hl: want to bring back the column-break-{before, after, inside} rather than having this in the page properties
16:55:56 <ChrisL> sz: then you have an interaction problem
16:56:05 <ChrisL> hl: yes, needs to be defined
16:56:10 <melinda> I'm kinda leaning the same way... maybe with a shorthand to combine them...???
16:56:16 <ChrisL> s/colun/column/
16:56:59 <ChrisL> hl: yes, shorthand could be good. will propose text
16:57:06 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
16:57:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
16:57:11 <ChrisL> adjourned
16:57:13 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:57:14 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:57:14 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:57:16 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:57:16 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:57:17 <Zakim> -Howcome
16:57:20 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
16:57:33 <Zakim> -Bert
16:57:42 <Zakim> -glazou
16:58:01 <Bert> Fantasai, for the CSS 2.1 issues, any day is fine starting next Tuesday.
16:58:07 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:58:09 <Zakim> -plinss
16:58:21 <ChrisL> meeting: css wg telcon
16:58:40 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
16:58:41 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:58:43 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
16:59:07 <ChrisL> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0020.html
16:59:11 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
17:03:28 <fantasai> Bert: ok
17:03:34 <fantasai> Bert: My schedules' pretty flexible
17:03:50 <fantasai> Bert: how about I'll go through the issues list this week and update it to match the minutes
17:04:09 <fantasai> Bert: and then next Tuesday you can go through and make sure all the edits are in
17:04:19 <Bert> OK
17:04:21 <fantasai> Bert: I'll review them on Tuesday
17:04:30 <fantasai> Bert: since my timezone is later :)
17:04:42 <fantasai> Bert: and if there's any remaining issues you can fix them Wednesday before the telecon
17:04:48 <fantasai> Bert: so we can get a resolution to publish
17:05:11 <fantasai> Bert: sounds good?
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