IRC log of eo on 2009-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:30:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:30:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/03-eo-irc
12:30:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
12:31:01 [achuter]
zakim, this will be eowg
12:31:01 [Zakim]
ok, achuter, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
12:31:08 [achuter]
rrsagent, make logs public
12:31:15 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:31:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, ??P5, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Loughborough, [IPcaller]
12:31:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, LiamMcGee, Song, hbj, Sharron, achuter, Wayne, andrew, shawn
12:31:18 [achuter]
scribe: achuter
12:31:34 [Zakim]
+ +0453649aaaa
12:31:36 [achuter]
zakim, IPCaller is me
12:31:36 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
12:31:53 [achuter]
meeting: EOWG
12:31:54 [Zakim]
+ +7.902.aabb
12:32:04 [achuter]
Chair: shawn
12:32:04 [andrew]
zakim, aabb is andrew
12:32:04 [Zakim]
+andrew; got it
12:32:17 [Song]
zakim, ??P5 is song
12:32:17 [Zakim]
+song; got it
12:32:22 [hbj]
zakim, aaaa is hbj
12:32:22 [Zakim]
+hbj; got it
12:32:48 [Zakim]
+Sharron
12:33:30 [achuter]
Present: Sharron, Shawn, Helle, Wayne, Song, Andrew, Alan, Liam
12:33:33 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:33:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, song, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Loughborough, achuter, hbj, andrew, Sharron
12:33:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, LiamMcGee, Song, hbj, Sharron, achuter, Wayne, andrew, shawn
12:34:06 [achuter]
Shawn: Would like to renew the scribing and minutes clean-up rotas
12:34:33 [achuter]
Shawn: Have done overview page for How People with Disabilities use the web
12:34:51 [achuter]
Shawn: Wayne has compiled some of our WAI-ARIA comments
12:35:16 [achuter]
Wayne: I can include remaining comments today
12:36:07 [achuter]
Sharron: I sent you compiled comments on "Improving access to government" document
12:36:17 [achuter]
Shawn: I didn't receive them
12:38:30 [achuter]
Shawn: Hopefully send out this evening comments on Government document
12:39:01 [achuter]
Shawn: Due to deadlines, pushed baack mobile Web document
12:39:06 [achuter]
Alan: No problem
12:39:28 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
12:39:29 [achuter]
Topic: How People with Disabilities use the Web., overview page
12:39:39 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: song (13%)
12:40:25 [Song]
zakim, mute me
12:40:25 [Zakim]
song should now be muted
12:41:35 [achuter]
Shawn: Purpose is to provide good place in navigation, as introduction to document, rather than having people dive right into long technical report with no WAI site navigation.
12:42:10 [achuter]
Shawn: Also aware that it now needs updating (technologies and ?).
12:42:26 [achuter]
Shawn: Finishing is covered by scope of WAI-AGE project.
12:42:35 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
12:42:35 [Zakim]
Wayne_Dick should now be muted
12:42:55 [achuter]
Shawn: People can work on it through WAI-AGE task force
12:43:19 [achuter]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/people-use-web
12:43:24 [hbj]
q
12:44:32 [achuter]
William: Mistakenly thought this was new version of main document.
12:45:02 [achuter]
Sharron: Different in that other overview pages cover whole suite of documents, but this one only a single page.
12:45:16 [achuter]
Helle: Name "Overview" is confusing.
12:45:44 [achuter]
William: Not convinced it's necessary
12:46:16 [achuter]
Andrew: Need to point to current version. Main doc has no WAI navigation and is very long.
12:46:34 [achuter]
Alan: Agree it is necessary.
12:46:53 [achuter]
Helle: Also need to mention age of document.
12:47:15 [achuter]
Helle: Started it almost a decade ago.
12:49:17 [achuter]
Helle: One of the reasons it wasn't finished was due to disagreement about the supermarket employee with cognitive disability.
12:49:30 [achuter]
Helle: Maybe we could take it out.
12:50:27 [Zakim]
-song
12:50:33 [achuter]
Shawn: Need to keep cognitive disability.
12:51:00 [Zakim]
+??P5
12:51:12 [achuter]
zakim, +??P5 is me
12:51:12 [Zakim]
sorry, achuter, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
12:51:20 [achuter]
zakim, ??P5 is me
12:51:20 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
12:53:03 [achuter]
Shawn: Link in first paragraph "How People with Disabilities Use the Web" links to main document.
12:53:50 [achuter]
Sharron: Page navigation in main doc is inadequate. Maybe could adapt the format of main document. then overview would be unnecessary.
12:54:02 [achuter]
Shawn: Andrew meant WAI site navigation.
12:54:52 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
12:54:52 [Zakim]
achuter was already muted, achuter
12:55:05 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:55:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, Shawn, Wayne_Dick (muted), Loughborough, achuter (muted), hbj, andrew, Sharron, achuter.a
12:55:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, LiamMcGee, Song, hbj, Sharron, achuter, Wayne, andrew, shawn
12:55:14 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
12:55:14 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
12:56:06 [shawn]
zakim, achuter.a is really Song
12:56:06 [Zakim]
+Song; got it
12:56:23 [shawn]
zakim, whjo is muted?
12:56:23 [Zakim]
sorry, shawn, I do not understand your question
12:56:26 [shawn]
zakim, who is muted?
12:56:26 [Zakim]
I see Wayne_Dick muted
12:56:45 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
12:56:45 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
12:57:05 [Zakim]
-Song
12:57:29 [Zakim]
+??P0
12:57:36 [shawn]
zakim, ??P0 is achuter
12:57:36 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
12:57:41 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
12:57:41 [Zakim]
achuter was already muted, achuter
12:57:49 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
12:57:49 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
12:58:02 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:58:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, Shawn, Wayne_Dick (muted), Loughborough, achuter, hbj, andrew, Sharron, achuter.a
12:58:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, LiamMcGee, Song, hbj, Sharron, achuter, Wayne, andrew, shawn
12:59:06 [shawn]
zakim, who is muted?
12:59:06 [Zakim]
I see Wayne_Dick, achuter, achuter.a muted
13:00:31 [achuter]
Shawn: Issue is that later, if we don't have overview page, we can only point people to main document.
13:00:59 [achuter]
Shawn: Which has no WAI navigation or branding.
13:03:20 [achuter]
Helle: Could split main document up into three sections. Has natural structure in three parts.
13:03:46 [achuter]
William: Strong concern about confusion between two documents.
13:05:17 [achuter]
William: Contrary to good usability practice.
13:05:44 [achuter]
q+
13:06:42 [achuter]
Alan: Could combine the main document into this one.
13:07:07 [achuter]
Shawn: Needs to be W3C Note for visibility and credibility.
13:07:12 [achuter]
ack
13:07:16 [achuter]
ack me
13:07:35 [andrew]
s/Needs to/Historically needed to/
13:09:03 [achuter]
Andrew: About whether it could be called introduction, as suggested by Sharron.
13:09:56 [Zakim]
-achuter.a
13:11:02 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:11:12 [achuter]
zakim, IPcaller is me
13:11:12 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
13:11:51 [achuter]
Shawn: Have tried removing alert message at top of page to see how it looks.
13:12:03 [achuter]
Helle: Maybe put link in title.
13:12:19 [achuter]
Andrew: Prefer not to have link in heading.
13:12:47 [achuter]
[All look at changing document online]
13:14:12 [achuter]
Shawn: Now have " Introduction to "How People with Disabilities Use the Web""
13:14:45 [achuter]
Helle: Need explanation that it is an introduction.
13:16:20 [achuter]
Sharron: Need to put it up front.
13:17:27 [achuter]
Helle: Should also describe enefits of using the Web for PWDs
13:17:52 [achuter]
Sharron: Not techniques for developers
13:18:10 [achuter]
s/ enefits/benefits
13:18:26 [achuter]
s/enefits/ benefits
13:19:21 [achuter]
Andrew: Can say "by 2010"
13:19:50 [achuter]
Shawn: Would like it for 2009 but realistically won't be ready this year.
13:21:46 [achuter]
Shawn: Main document is out of date, but contains much good information.
13:23:36 [achuter]
Sharron: Basic information is still useful for people who don't know PWDs.
13:24:10 [achuter]
Shawn: What about level of detail?
13:25:13 [achuter]
William: Left-hand panel link should be "Introduction to How PWD..."
13:25:39 [achuter]
William: Referencing section, shouldn't tell people to reference the overview page.
13:25:59 [achuter]
Shawn: Right now people shouldn't reference a working draft.
13:26:19 [achuter]
William: Nobody cares that it's an unapproved draft.
13:26:35 [achuter]
William: This is just an obstacle.
13:27:28 [LiamMcGee2]
LiamMcGee2 has joined #eo
13:27:36 [achuter]
Shawn: Is it logical to ask people to reference this overview when in practice they can link to whatver they want.
13:30:06 [Sharron]
scribe: Sharron
13:30:17 [Zakim]
-achuter.a
13:30:17 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
13:30:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, Shawn, Wayne_Dick (muted), Loughborough, achuter, hbj, andrew, Sharron
13:30:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see LiamMcGee2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Song, hbj, Sharron, achuter, Wayne, andrew, shawn
13:31:04 [Sharron]
Shawn: Any other comments on the overiview? I will post, more comments send to email list.
13:31:09 [Zakim]
-hbj
13:31:28 [Sharron]
Topic: WAI-ARIA comments
13:31:37 [Wayne]
zakim, unmute me
13:31:37 [Zakim]
Wayne_Dick should no longer be muted
13:31:42 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/comments/wai-aria-2009-04
13:32:36 [Sharron]
Shawn: We have two sets of comments, thanks Wayne for drafting the first set and the second set is the one from the teleconference and will be included in the next draft of our comments.
13:33:16 [Sharron]
...Wayne, please take us through.
13:33:36 [Sharron]
Wayne: Our comment, the editors response and our response to that.
13:34:07 [Sharron]
Wayne: You will see 3 stars for those that still need review. Let's look at those.
13:34:35 [Sharron]
...Want to make it very clear up front what the document is, who it is for, that there are related documents.
13:34:40 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
13:34:51 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Wayne_Dick (75%)
13:35:20 [Sharron]
Wayne: While editors indicated they had addressed that concern, we did not feel it was adequately described.
13:36:22 [shawn]
"WAI-ARIA is a technical specification that provides an ontology to improve the accessibility and interoperability of web content and applications. This document is primarily for developers creating custom widgets and other web application components. Please see the WAI-ARIA Overview for links to related documents for other audiences, such as the WAI-ARIA Primer that introduces developers to the accessibility problems that WAI-ARIA is intended to solve, the fundament
13:37:29 [Sharron]
Wayne: One thing, the term ontology is not defined anywhere in W3C; taxonomy is not defined in any way other than biolgy in W3C or anywhere else.
13:37:52 [Sharron]
Shawn: How about "framework" ?
13:38:12 [Sharron]
William: Taxonomy is defined in Wikipedia.
13:38:43 [Sharron]
Shawn: Are we comfortable suggesting "framework"
13:38:47 [Sharron]
Liam: Yes
13:40:27 [Sharron]
Wayne: The second comment that needs attention, we said that for consistancy with other documents, please put WAI-ARIA in title of all referencial documents. They said too awkward, did not want to do it.
13:41:10 [Sharron]
Shawn: So the wuestion is how important is it to have a short name, easy to reference, how improtant to have the acronym written out, etc. Note how we did this for WCAG.
13:41:43 [Sharron]
Liam: That is a good solution WAI ARIA...
13:42:12 [Sharron]
...for each first reference within title
13:42:58 [Sharron]
Shawn: adding a colon to create title and subtitle for each document.
13:43:13 [Sharron]
Wayne: I am for dropping 1.0
13:43:35 [Sharron]
Shawn: It is a W3C version management issue, but we can flag it for consideration.
13:45:10 [Sharron]
...anything else for headings? Back to you Wayne.
13:46:45 [Sharron]
Wayne: We think the "normative/informative" distinction needs to be made more clearly. They responded that they think it is clear.
13:47:17 [Sharron]
Shawn: We simply reiterate that it is not really clear. any further discussion needed?
13:48:18 [Sharron]
Wayne: It is not clearly referenced at all, in fact. Not clear about what is meant by "section" etc.
13:49:41 [Sharron]
Wayne: Comment 4, we said ARIA Overview should be WAI-ARIA Overview and they were unclear about whether we meant in all uses or only titles.
13:50:16 [Sharron]
...we clarified once that we meant titles, do we need furhter clarification.
13:51:13 [Sharron]
Shawn: Does anyone feel strongly one way or another about each use of ARIA. Must each use be WAI-ARIA? or just titles and first use?
13:51:42 [Sharron]
Wayne: Extra wording does confuse and distract from the content. I like to read ARIA.
13:52:23 [Sharron]
Shawn: But if you read WAI-ARIA for each and every use, you process it as one thing and it is less distracting.
13:52:35 [Sharron]
Andrew: That would certainly be my preference.
13:53:09 [Sharron]
Liam: Can use it in speech, but the written reference should consitantly be to WAI-ARIA.
13:53:46 [Sharron]
Shawn: I will then comment that we recommend WAI-ARIA throughout.
13:55:46 [Sharron]
Wayne: Next comment was "Explain jargon like "user agent" on first use. Link terms" Editor responded by linking and asked if the links were now perhaps overdone.
13:57:29 [Sharron]
Wayne: Comment 6 is closed
13:59:03 [Sharron]
...next one open is Comment 11 ""Writing rich internet applications is much more difficult than writing in HTML...
14:00:19 [Sharron]
...consider their rewrite, are we willing to accept this? "Writing rich internet applications and ensuring that they work on multiple browsers is much more difficult than writing simple HTML pages. In many cases, it is best to use existing widget libraries that have already gone through:... [extensive assistive technology testing, cross browser testing, testing to ensure that the widgets respond to desktop settings, testing to ensure that the widgets match a common
14:01:01 [Sharron]
illiam: Are the libraries instead of WAI-ARIA?
14:01:11 [Sharron]
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Sharron has joined #eo
14:02:06 [andrew]
s/illiam: Are th/William: Are th/
14:02:51 [Sharron]
Liam: Libraries that already incorporate WAI-ARIA techniques as opposed to writing them from scratch.
14:03:26 [andrew]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#aria_ex
14:03:40 [Sharron]
...It is in Section 10. We may want to suggest that it is more time consuming rather than difficult
14:04:20 [andrew]
oops - try http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#reuse_comp_lib
14:05:06 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#reuse_comp_lib
14:05:35 [LiamMcGee2]
Writing rich internet applications and ensuring that they work on multiple browsers can be much more time consuming than writing simple HTML pages. In many cases, it is best to use existing WAI-ARIA-supporting widget libraries that have already gone through...
14:06:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: existing libraries that implement WAI-ARIA
14:08:14 [Sharron]
Wayne: Nice thing about libraries, if the techniques change, the libraries are likely to pick that up sooner.
14:09:09 [Sharron]
Liam: Do we have any other than Dojo that have successfully implementd?
14:09:52 [Sharron]
Shawn: We are not comfortable with them naming a specific toolkit, so suggested a separate page listing those that support WAI-ARIA.
14:10:22 [Sharron]
...there are a few more that do and/or will by the time this is final.
14:10:44 [Sharron]
Wayne: The truth is that it is not that hard to write.
14:10:53 [Sharron]
Liam: But it is harder to standardize.
14:11:19 [Sharron]
...there are a number of toolkits and libraries that can make your life easier and will help standardize, etc
14:11:58 [Sharron]
Shawn: Do we just start then with "It is usaully better to..."
14:12:48 [Sharron]
Liam: Not always easier, can write a simple script, but sometimes better.
14:13:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: There are some instances where you can just copy the code.
14:13:45 [Sharron]
...How about "Widget libraries are avaialble that support WAI-ARIA and have already..."
14:13:59 [Sharron]
...but the point about standardizing is a good one.
14:14:52 [Sharron]
Liam: If we all standardized on the use of usage of specific keys as access keys, that would not have been good.
14:15:06 [Sharron]
...so it is tricky.
14:15:52 [Sharron]
Shawn: We want to rethink the point of this section, articulate the cases in which they don't need a library and the ones for which they do.
14:16:19 [Sharron]
Liam: For complex rich internet applications, libraries exist that have implemented WAI-ARIA techniques.
14:18:32 [Sharron]
Wayne: Do we want to add soemthing along the lines of "When you are in doubt, this is a good option"
14:19:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: I tend to avoid giving specific wording.
14:19:54 [Sharron]
* Liam - :)
14:20:37 [Sharron]
Liam: Can I check on that? Is it such a bad thing to recommend the ones who have gone through the trouble of implementing it?
14:21:09 [Sharron]
Shawn: Because it is a note, we suggest a link to a separate page that is easier to change and keep current
14:22:23 [Sharron]
...Comment 12 addresses that. We should clarify that we are happy to mention specific toolkits that implement WAI-ARIA as long as it is done in a format that can be kept current.
14:22:46 [Sharron]
Liam: Can it be a critique page a swell?
14:23:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes, perhaps a Wiki format that allows feedback about implementation.
14:23:39 [Sharron]
Wayne: I will edit this down so that it addresses next steps.
14:24:10 [Sharron]
Shawn: If there is additional information in the second round of comments, perhaps just include them here.
14:24:19 [Sharron]
...anything else for today?
14:25:05 [Sharron]
...will have updated comments to review. And egov comments from Sharron.
14:25:36 [Sharron]
...and update of How PWD use the web?
14:25:57 [Sharron]
...thanks, we are adjourned.
14:26:39 [Sharron]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:26:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/03-eo-minutes.html Sharron
14:26:47 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
14:26:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Liam, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Loughborough, achuter, andrew, Sharron
14:26:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Sharron, LiamMcGee2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Song, Wayne, andrew, shawn
14:26:53 [Zakim]
-Sharron
14:26:57 [Zakim]
-andrew
14:26:59 [Zakim]
-Wayne_Dick
14:27:03 [Zakim]
-Liam
14:27:07 [LiamMcGee2]
+44 1373 836 476
14:27:54 [Zakim]
-Loughborough
14:27:57 [Zakim]
-Shawn
14:28:55 [andrew]
andrew has left #eo
14:35:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, achuter, in WAI_EOWG()8:30AM
14:35:02 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:35:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were Liam, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Loughborough, +0453649aaaa, achuter, +7.902.aabb, andrew, song, hbj, Sharron
14:36:23 [Sharron]
Shawn, I can't seem to get detils of the survey to display...is ther a trick?
14:40:08 [shawn]
hi Sharron -- I made it public. should be available now at http://www.w3.org/2009/04/03-eo-minutes.html
14:40:13 [shawn]
(is that what you were looking for?
14:43:14 [shawn2]
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