15:55:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:55:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/01-css-irc
15:55:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #css
15:55:41 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:55:41 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:56:39 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:46 <Zakim> +??P7
15:57:08 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:57:10 <Zakim> +plinss
15:57:28 <fantasai> zakim, ??p7 is me
15:57:28 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
15:57:37 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
15:57:58 <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
15:57:58 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
15:58:00 <Zakim> +glazou
15:58:52 <dsinger> Is this co-ed student services?
15:59:39 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:59:49 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (44%), glazou (16%)
15:59:51 <dsinger> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:59:54 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
15:59:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
16:00:02 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (9%), glazou (5%)
16:00:23 <glazou> fantasai, we have a lot of noise coming from your phone
16:00:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:33 <anne> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:00:33 <Zakim> +anne; got it
16:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
16:01:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:05 <sylvaing> Zakim, 1.206.324 is sylvaing
16:01:07 <Zakim> sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named '1.206.324'
16:01:16 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:01:17 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:01:17 <fantasai> glazou, ok muted
16:01:18 <sylvaing> Zakim, +1.206.324.aaaa is sylvaing
16:01:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, dsinger (muted), plinss, glazou, anne, +1.206.324.aaaa, [Microsoft]
16:01:24 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:01:24 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, Zakim, RRSAgent, arronei, sylvaing, CesarAcebal, glazou, myakura, MikeSmith, jdaggett, anne, plinss_, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, plinss, fantasai, Hixie, trackbot
16:01:44 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:01:57 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:02:13 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:02:13 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:03:26 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
16:03:29 <Zakim> + +98567aabb
16:04:06 <CesarAcebal> Zakim, +98567aabb is CesarAcebal
16:04:06 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
16:05:24 <Zakim> +Howcome
16:05:47 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:06:04 <glazou> ScribeNick glazou
16:06:12 <anne> scribe: glazou
16:06:31 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
16:06:36 <glazou> plinss: additions to agenda ? howcome I got your note ?
16:06:46 <fantasai> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
16:06:48 <glazou> fantasai: brad kemper's proposal for border-image
16:06:50 <dsinger> Steve z and i reached agreement
16:07:21 <dsinger> Later in call if time...
16:07:22 <glazou> agenda item 1 : test case selector issue
16:07:23 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0002.html
16:07:33 <dbaron> I haven't read Brad Kemper's proposal yet; it didn't work very well when catching up on my email on the airplane...
16:07:39 <glazou> plinss: had a chance to read the thread ?
16:07:58 <glazou> glazou: I did
16:08:01 <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
16:08:24 <glazou> glazou: Bert summarized the issue, XML cannot make an attribute start with a digit
16:08:34 <glazou> anne: yes, impossible
16:08:40 <sylvaing> invalid, even
16:08:50 <glazou> anne: it's even invalid in html as well
16:08:56 <anne> (that was arron)
16:09:03 <glazou> s/anne/arron
16:09:27 <glazou> arron: I totally agree the case is an invalid case but we have a problem where we cannot test invalid scenarios
16:09:33 <glazou> arron: this has to be valid xhtml
16:09:51 <glazou> arronei: so how do you test invalid scenarios
16:10:05 <glazou> arronei: how do you test an attribute starting with hyphen, valid scenario ?
16:10:12 <glazou> anne: you can't 
16:10:24 <glazou> arronei: the spec needs to change to remove this restrictions or ...
16:10:29 <glazou> dbaron: the rule is testable
16:10:37 <glazou> dbaron: you can test with another rule
16:10:55 <glazou> arronei: still, you can't test an attribute starting with an hyphen
16:11:01 <glazou> dbaron: find another language where it is allowed
16:11:06 <glazou> arronei: test suite is xhtml
16:11:11 <fantasai> dbaron: or don't worry about it
16:11:21 <glazou> dbaron: we're looking in interoperable implems in languages applying to css
16:11:43 <glazou> arronei: I understand but how do you test that hyphen scenario ? which language ?
16:11:50 <glazou> dbaron:  we don't test it, untestable requirement
16:12:07 <glazou> dbaron: we can test that it's an accepted selector with another valid selector in same rule
16:12:19 <glazou> dbaron: just like p, :not(p)
16:12:27 <glazou> arronei: but we cannot prove which selector matched
16:12:35 <fantasai> dbaron: just like p:not(p), wher eyou can't prove that it doesn't match anything
16:12:35 <glazou> arronei: no way to prove that
16:12:40 <glazou> thx fantasai 
16:12:57 <glazou> arronei: then you have an ambiguous testcase
16:13:13 <glazou> dbaron: in theory an implem could harcode the response and pass CSS test suite
16:13:29 <glazou> anne: 2 tests with one having two selectors ina  rule and another with only one
16:13:42 <glazou> arronei: dependency issue
16:13:50 <glazou> arronei: we end up with a dependency chain
16:13:51 <fantasai> dbaron: but that implementation doesn't remotely implement CSS
16:13:53 <glazou> anne: not a problem
16:14:19 <glazou> anne: at least with html5 you can have attribute with a leading dash
16:14:29 <glazou> anne: I think digits too
16:14:44 <glazou> arronei: that would handle the valid case
16:14:54 <glazou> arronei: the invalid has probably no good way of testing
16:15:19 <glazou> sylvaing: you never really select because it's alrady dropped
16:15:30 <glazou> sylvaing: spec says there is syntax error
16:15:31 <mollydotcom> mollydotcom has joined #css
16:15:39 <glazou> anne:  you can match using an escape
16:15:47 <glazou> plinss: perfectly valid css if you escape
16:16:00 <glazou> plinss: should still not match siince the attr is not in the DOM
16:16:09 <glazou> arronei: we need a markup language allowing that attribute
16:16:30 <glazou> anne: two pbs : syntax error and limitations of markup
16:16:42 <glazou> arronei: with html5 we should be able to test
16:16:55 <glazou> anne: I was more objecting with the way it cannot start with a digit
16:17:11 <glazou> anne: section 5 says the selector is dropped
16:17:27 <glazou> dbaron: chapter 5 says it should not match
16:17:36 <glazou> dbaron: the syntactic requirement sentence ?
16:17:40 <glazou> dbaron: yes
16:17:46 <glazou> dbaron:  not about matching
16:17:52 <glazou> arronei: the entire chapter is about that
16:18:01 <glazou> dbaron: and about the syntax of selectors
16:18:07 <glazou> arronei: syntax is in chapter 4
16:18:09 <glazou> dbaron:  not entirely
16:18:14 <glazou> arronei: I see
16:18:20 <glazou> arronei: I'm ok with that
16:18:33 <glazou> arronei: the way I need to deal with this is with html5
16:18:41 <glazou> arronei: can we submit this as html5...
16:18:54 <glazou> anne: in this case it's a syntax-level requirement
16:19:16 <glazou> anne: not required on same page yet
16:19:22 <glazou> arronei: error handling is important
16:19:47 <glazou> dbaron: then there's already one test you failed so we catched the issue
16:19:57 <glazou> arronei: I was discorrelating the chapters
16:20:10 <glazou> arronei: if we fail that error case then according to ch5 you should not select either
16:20:41 <glazou> arronei: if you fail error case in ch4 then you have to create the case to see what failed ? because of P or attribute selector ?
16:20:50 <glazou> arronei: does it make sense to have in test suite ?
16:20:57 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:21:03 <glazou> fantasai: it's good to avoid dependencies on other chapters of the spec
16:21:17 <glazou> fantasai: here we are trying to capture a case related to another part of spec
16:21:23 <dbaron> fantasai: ... if it's easy to do without going out of your way
16:21:24 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:21:28 <glazou> fantasai: why you failed is an implementor's job
16:21:30 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:21:38 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:21:38 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:21:43 <glazou> fantasai: I don' think we should really break things down
16:22:15 <glazou> fantasai: there's a limit to our efforts breaking things down
16:22:24 <glazou> fantasai: does not need to happen in the test suite
16:22:37 <glazou> arronei: I think for this case we're in agreement
16:22:43 <glazou> arronei: I was in disagreement before
16:22:50 <glazou> arronei: ok, I'll remove this test case
16:23:05 <glazou> arronei: I need to dig in we have other similar cases like that one
16:23:14 <glazou> arronei: I'll see if html5 works for cases
16:23:31 <glazou> fantasai: we don't need to test cases that are not going to happen in real markup docs
16:23:34 <dbaron> After "Attribute values must be identifiers or strings." we could add "(Otherwise, the selector is not valid CSS 2.1.)"
16:23:37 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:23:39 <glazou> arronei: I disagree with that
16:23:45 <glazou> glazou: I disagree too
16:23:49 <anne> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:23:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, plinss, glazou, anne, sylvaing, arronei, [Mozilla], CesarAcebal, Howcome, Melinda_Grant, [Apple]
16:23:51 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:23:51 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:24:36 <glazou> arronei: we need to test every single part of spec, period
16:24:46 <glazou> arronei: that needs to happen, otherwise we're not done
16:24:58 <glazou> arronei: we need to test everything in the spec or we miss coverage
16:25:18 <glazou> fantasai: in this case it'll be fine to note we were not able to test because of technology
16:25:35 <glazou> sylvaing: limit yourselved to *ml markup because UA use that
16:25:42 <sylvaing> that was anne
16:25:49 <glazou> arronei: there could be other UA
16:25:52 <glazou> s/sylvaing/anne
16:26:03 <glazou> fantasai: in that case the implem will need its own test suite
16:26:23 <glazou> arronei: it's trying to implement CSS with their own markup, they do not care
16:26:44 <glazou> fantasai: we don't need to worry about it, that's their problem, they can contribute their own format of the test suite
16:27:24 <glazou> arronei: but if we have a markup language that is compatible accross vendors, then I can test most of these scenarios
16:27:38 <glazou> arronei: if I can create tests in html5, is that a problem ?
16:27:43 <glazou> melinda, fantasai yes
16:27:47 <glazou> melinda: too early on
16:27:55 <glazou> anne: but the parsing rules are a decade old
16:27:58 <glazou> anne: older than css
16:28:08 <glazou> arronei: a limited number of cases: 6 or 7
16:28:24 <glazou> arronei: nothing in the 17,000 cases list
16:28:30 <glazou> melinda: I have a problem with that
16:28:46 <glazou> anne: most browsers do html5, not an issue
16:29:10 <glazou> fantasai: we can add them to the list of tests and see
16:29:16 <glazou> fantasai: might have to index by hand
16:29:24 <glazou> Zakim: shhhhttttt
16:29:32 <glazou> fantasai: problem is automatic indexing
16:29:43 <glazou> fantasai: we can have a hand process for these ones
16:29:56 <anne> (there's only 10-20 tests or so that need special syntax)
16:29:59 <glazou> arronei: I think we have a solution here for the initial issue
16:30:04 <anne> (which HTML5 allows)
16:30:08 <sylvaing> naming convention for html5 testcases so the build scripts can handle them separately ?
16:30:11 <glazou> arronei: most issues related to chapters 4 and 5
16:30:19 <glazou> howcome: so what's the solution
16:30:23 <glazou> arronei: remove the case
16:30:33 <glazou> arronei: pursue the html5 possibility
16:30:36 <glazou> howcome: sounds good
16:30:41 <fantasai> I suggest a different file extension
16:30:57 <glazou> arronei: one other issue is a test suite issue
16:31:01 <fantasai> that way the build scripts will ignore them, and we can tell the makefile to just copy it
16:31:12 <sylvaing> if that's sufficient, that's great
16:31:17 <glazou> arronei: another invalid case with invalid markup because of invalid attr, the version attr on html
16:31:21 <glazou> arronei: seems like a dtd bug
16:31:27 <glazou> howcome: url ?
16:31:48 <glazou> arronei: the version attr is valid for transitional
16:31:53 <glazou> anne: some other attrs ?
16:32:05 <glazou> arronei: wrt the attr() notation
16:32:14 <glazou> arronei:  the test fails 
16:32:22 <glazou> arronei: I am testing all attrs in html4 spec
16:32:33 <glazou> arronei: because the dtd does not contain the version attr
16:32:33 <dbaron> There's a version attribute?
16:32:41 <glazou> ??:drop it
16:32:42 <anne> yeah
16:32:47 <anne> s/??/anne/
16:32:49 <glazou> melinda: html only case ?
16:32:51 <glazou> arronei: yes
16:33:10 <glazou> glazou: report to html WG
16:33:29 <arronei> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.3
16:33:44 <glazou> anne: they won't care
16:33:53 <glazou> arronei: not sure it's important
16:34:04 <glazou> anne:  just drop the test
16:34:13 <sylvaing> DTD -> "Don't Test DOCTYPES"
16:34:17 <glazou> LOL
16:34:34 <glazou> arronei: ok with dropping it but it's such a great area
16:34:53 <glazou> anne: well ok
16:35:13 <glazou> arronei: only known attrs defined in html
16:35:25 <glazou> anne: there are a bunch of invalid attrs too
16:35:47 <glazou> melinda: worth lokking with html wg if it's intentional 
16:35:52 <glazou> s/lokking/looking
16:35:58 <glazou> arronei: these tests are marked html only
16:36:06 <glazou> melinda: xhtml as well ?
16:36:16 <glazou> arronei: deprecated attrs are html only
16:36:24 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:36:29 <glazou> arronei: odd case
16:36:40 <glazou> melinda: maybe not worth keeping it
16:37:10 <glazou> arronei: will ping html wg and we'll see
16:37:18 <glazou> arronei: the issue is external to us
16:37:38 <glazou> arronei: other issues with our tests ?
16:37:51 <glazou> anne: regarding the normalization thing, there is a problem too
16:37:58 <glazou> anne: not sure it has to be tested in the css test suite
16:38:08 <glazou> arronei: I'll take a look at that, you have a pointer ?
16:38:39 <glazou> melinda: I noticed the validator throws a warning for not having encoding
16:38:49 <glazou> melinda: do we want to accept that ?
16:39:05 <glazou> fantasai: we can add to build script and rely on http headers
16:39:14 <glazou> s/and/or
16:39:23 <anne> s/there is a problem too/there would be a DOM problem too most likely/
16:39:27 <glazou> melinda: the warning occurs even if the http header is here
16:39:34 <glazou> fantasai: ok, we can add to build script
16:39:57 <glazou> fantasai: I prefer keeping the template unchanged
16:40:03 <glazou> melinda: good answer
16:40:19 <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai add UTF-8 header to build scripts
16:40:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Add UTF-8 header to build scripts [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-04-08].
16:40:27 <glazou> howcome: multicol issue ? I have to run
16:40:38 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:40:44 <glazou> plinss: yes
16:41:02 <glazou> plinss: new draft ?
16:41:15 <glazou> howcome: yes, what we decided at ftf to use page properties to force column breaks
16:41:26 <glazou> howcome: not elegant but will work w/o having to create new props
16:41:37 <glazou> howcome: also about margin collapsing but almost same spec
16:41:44 <glazou> howcome: draft since previous century
16:41:57 <glazou> howcome: we have 3 probably 4 implems so it's about time
16:42:03 <glazou> howcome: all comments have been resolved
16:42:07 <glazou> howcome: time to move to LC
16:42:16 <glazou> howcome: fantasai suggested long LC 8 weeks
16:42:42 <glazou> melinda: we don't have a way to contain content to a page, important concern to me
16:42:45 <glazou> howcome: uh ?
16:43:02 <glazou> melinda: page break avoid in column scenario, we don't have any control on that
16:43:09 <glazou> howcome: the spec does not say anything about that
16:43:20 <glazou> howcome: adds a new keyword on two new properties to force column break
16:43:30 <glazou> melinda: changes definitions of page-break-inside ?
16:43:38 <glazou> howcome: means both
16:43:40 <glazou> melinda: how ?
16:43:47 <glazou> howcome: this is an old change, a year ago
16:44:00 <glazou> howcome: not column break inside properties, reusing page break
16:44:09 <glazou> melinda: disagreed during last ftf
16:44:23 <glazou> fantasai: a column box cannot break across pages
16:44:40 <glazou> fantasai: a block that cannot rbeak across columns cannot break across pages
16:44:55 <glazou> howcome: you never really have control on that
16:45:02 <glazou> melinda: but I want that control
16:45:16 <glazou> howcome: somebody, alex?, could not see use cases for that
16:45:24 <glazou> melinda: I responsed to that statement
16:45:53 <glazou> fantasai: the way to solve this is to create a new keyword that avoids breaking across pages
16:45:55 <glazou> melinda: fine
16:46:14 <glazou> melinda: feeling not ok with long LC without that
16:46:20 <glazou> howcome: no we did not discuss that
16:46:25 <glazou> melinda:  that's in the logs
16:46:32 <glazou> howcome: we did not touch the draft in that area
16:46:44 <glazou> melinda: let's look at current page-break-inside:avoid 
16:46:49 <glazou> howcome: paged media draft
16:46:53 <glazou> fantasai: we discussed it
16:47:13 <glazou> fantasai: we chose to apply to both column and pages
16:47:40 <glazou> melinda: still disagreeing
16:47:50 <glazou> fantasai: I prefer authors think about it
16:48:01 <glazou> melinda: fine, but we don't have anecessary control here
16:48:09 <glazou> melinda: I understand but that's all we have
16:48:21 <glazou> howcome: you are right but we're not discussing the before after properties
16:48:36 <glazou> howcome: I was happy to put in column-break-inside as well
16:48:48 <glazou> howcome: that was the consensus ; happy to put it in again
16:48:54 <glazou> howcome: continue in LC period
16:49:04 <fantasai> I don't want a separate property here. If we need to add a keyword, we should add a keyword
16:49:05 <glazou> melinda: we need as a WG to make one more change
16:49:17 <glazou> melinda: are we expecting two LCs on this
16:49:20 <glazou> howcome:  no one
16:49:35 <glazou> howcome: one new kwd to represent that case ?
16:49:39 <glazou> melinda: wonderful
16:49:53 <dbaron> page-break-inside: avoid-page ?
16:49:58 <glazou> melinda: I am saying there are multiple cases
16:50:11 <glazou> melinda: we need independant controls for the column and the page cases
16:50:23 <glazou> howcome: more comfortable well maybe not
16:50:40 <glazou> howcome: I'm ok with having avoid kwd apply to both
16:50:49 <glazou> melinda: as long as we have extra control, ok
16:50:54 <glazou> howcome: we can add two kwds
16:51:14 <glazou> fantasai: no use case for avoid column
16:51:17 <sylvaing> if my recollection is right, alex was worried about possible contradictions in some scenarios i.e. column-break:avoid and page-break:auto
16:51:20 <glazou> howcome: yes we do
16:51:23 <glazou> fantasai: no we don't
16:51:33 <Zakim> -anne
16:51:47 <glazou> szilles: avoid column would necessarily avoid break pages
16:51:49 <glazou> howcome: right
16:51:57 <glazou> melinda: fine
16:52:02 <glazou> fantasai: fine
16:52:06 <glazou> szilles: property name ?
16:52:14 <glazou> szilles: confusion with page-break-inside
16:52:22 <glazou> szilles: I would say avoid says just page
16:52:30 <glazou> szilles: and column says column and page
16:52:36 <glazou> fantasai: discussion already happened
16:52:40 <glazou> howcome: when ?
16:52:43 <glazou> fantasai: ftf
16:53:21 <glazou> howcome: I'm getting old, my memory is bad ;-)
16:53:25 <glazou> howcome: put it in ?
16:53:32 <glazou> melinda: wonderful
16:53:39 <glazou> fantasai: ask molly if she has suggestion
16:53:50 <glazou> melinda: we can change name in LC period
16:53:57 <glazou> melinda: great to add functionailty
16:54:02 <glazou> plinss: mark at risk ?
16:54:10 <glazou> howcome: note we're not sure about the name of the kwd
16:54:26 <glazou> melinda: if we have also implems we can test both otherwise we'll have to remove the column breaking one
16:54:40 <glazou> szilles: another reason to use another name or the colimn breaking thing
16:54:45 <glazou> howcome: avoid-all ?
16:55:10 <glazou> melinda: it may or may not apply to table cells
16:55:18 <glazou> fantasai: avoid-page for now and call for suggestions
16:55:25 <glazou> howcome: another issue here
16:55:32 <glazou> howcome: things in addition to page
16:55:40 <glazou> plinss: we're running out of time
16:55:50 <glazou> plinss: we agreed to add functionnality back in
16:55:57 <glazou> plinss: agreement to move to LC ?
16:56:17 <glazou> szilles: if avoid does both column and page and column is at risk then avoid will disappear
16:56:40 <glazou> melinda: howcome and fantasai should come up with a proposal for next week
16:56:47 <Zakim> -Howcome
16:56:55 <glazou> ACTION howcome fantasai : come up with proposal for multicol
16:56:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Fantasai : come up with proposal for multicol [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2009-04-08].
16:57:06 <glazou> agenda item ARIA review
16:57:11 <plinss> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/
16:57:18 <fantasai> My proposal is page-break-inside: auto | avoid | avoid-page-break
16:57:20 <glazou> plinss: deadline is april 17th
16:57:49 <glazou> plinss: please everyone with interest in it review it, do we want to discuss it a s a group ?
16:58:20 <glazou> glazou: depends on the reviews themselves
16:58:23 <glazou> plinss: yes
16:58:31 <glazou> plinss: mailing list for comments
16:58:33 <plinss> send comments to: public-pfwg-comments@w3.org
16:58:52 <glazou> glazou: comments to css wg first or directly there ?
16:58:57 <glazou> plinss: no strong opinion
16:59:13 <glazou> fantasai: there cc wg
16:59:18 <glazou> plinss: fair enough
16:59:41 <glazou> plinss: I hope we don't enter controversy, please make sure you don't represent the WG
16:59:45 <glazou> agenda item TP
16:59:59 <glazou> plinss: we need to give an answer
17:00:01 <glazou> plinss: so ?
17:00:05 <dsinger> we surely should meet.  
17:00:23 <glazou> szilles: we discussed it, meet with SVG when they meet
17:00:30 <glazou> dbaron: what other WG said or Chris ?
17:00:37 <glazou> glazou: headr nothing from them
17:00:46 <glazou> plinss: SVG was not going to be there, I think
17:00:47 <glazou> szilles: yes
17:00:53 <glazou> szilles:  a month earlier
17:01:06 <glazou> fantasai: HTML and Webapps at TPAC
17:01:15 <dsinger> what does "tech plenary" mean when major techs like SVG, CSS, don't meet?
17:01:16 <glazou> szilles: nobody said that, I don't know
17:01:52 <glazou> szilles: ping them ?
17:02:46 <glazou> glazou: said yes on TPAC questionnaire for thu/fri
17:02:55 <glazou> glazou: to leave us the door open
17:03:01 <glazou> plinss: ok
17:03:13 <glazou> plinss: if html and webapps we will attend
17:03:19 <glazou> szilles: yes
17:03:36 <glazou> szilles: and a separate meeting with SVG
17:03:46 <glazou> glazou: not both ?
17:03:47 <dsinger> we should encourage them to attend tpac in that case
17:03:48 <glazou> szilles:  no
17:03:56 <glazou> szilles: the biggest bang for the buck
17:04:00 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:04:03 <dsinger> We have a CSS f2f in Sophia Wed-Fri 24-26 June, right?  I was starting on hotel and travel as that is peak season in the cote d'azur. I plan to arrive Wed. afternoon (from a 3G meeting in Sweden).
17:04:34 <glazou> 3-5
17:04:55 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:04:56 <glazou> dsinger: sigh will probably not be able to do it
17:04:56 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
17:04:58 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:05:01 <Zakim> -arronei
17:05:02 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:05:03 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:05:04 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:04 <Zakim> -plinss
17:05:06 <fantasai> Bert?
17:05:23 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:06:07 <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Upcoming_F2Fs doesn't have the SVG WG's plans
17:06:22 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has left #css
17:07:27 <glazou> fantasai: you have a script to turn the IRC minutes into something readable ?
17:07:32 <shepazu> dbaron, they aren't settled yet, but I will put up a page about SVG Open, and we could discuss it at tomorrow's SVG WG telcon if that would help
17:07:38 <glazou> hi shepazu 
17:07:44 <Zakim> -glazou
17:07:45 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:46 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, fantasai, glazou, anne, arronei, sylvaing, David_Baron, CesarAcebal, Howcome, Melinda_Grant, SteveZ
17:07:47 <shepazu> hi, glazou 
17:10:21 <glazou> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/01-css-minutes.html glazou
17:10:56 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
17:12:04 <shepazu> does anyone here have a good idea about how to make a mobile-friendly stylesheet for a site?  I'm thinking that if I just drop my blog's sidebar down below the content area, that should suffice... but should I use media rules, or screen dimensions, or something else to switch on?
17:14:46 <glazou> shepazu: you want a rendering w/o horizontal scrollbar ?
17:15:31 <shepazu> glazou: I guess something like that would suffice... it's a WordPress blog, pretty narrow
17:15:42 <glazou> looking for url
17:15:45 <shepazu> http://www.schepers.cc/
17:17:39 <glazou> shepazu: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/minimo/components/ssr/smallScreen.css
17:17:47 <glazou> that's my small screen rendering CSS sheet
17:18:45 <shepazu> thanks, glazou!  I figured someone on the CSS WG might know how to do it :)
17:19:11 <glazou> yeah, when opera released SSR long ago, I did the same in ten minutes or so
17:19:27 <glazou> ok, they also have a bit of media queries in it but the basis is that sheet
17:19:50 <glazou> I need to run, bye doug
17:20:36 <shepazu> later, glazou 
18:45:59 <fantasai> shepazu: I wrote an article on ALA about that awhile ago, btw
18:46:16 <fantasai> shepazu: it's probably one of the first hits for my name
18:50:36 <shepazu> fantasai: yes, I found that :)  but I wondered if it was up to date
18:52:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
19:01:52 <fantasai> shepazu: on the specifics of triggering handheld rendering in Opera, probably not
19:02:22 <fantasai> shepazu: most of the rest is probably general enough not to be outdated
19:20:36 <shepazu> ok, thanks, fantasai 
19:24:18 <fantasai> anyway, I'm offline til Friday
19:24:22 <fantasai> laters