12:52:38 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
12:52:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-irc
12:52:45 Zakim has joined #xhtml
12:52:52 rrsagent, make log public
12:53:06 Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF
12:53:13 Chair: Roland
12:54:47 zakim, room for 8 at 13:00z for 240 mins?
12:54:49 ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
12:55:00 Roland has joined #xhtml
12:55:39 agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
12:55:51 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
12:55:57 ScribeNick: oedipus
12:56:03 rrsagent, make minutes
12:56:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
12:56:10 code is CONF4
12:56:24 26634
12:56:36 Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF4 (26634)
12:56:59 Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started
12:57:01 +Roland_Merrick
12:57:17 Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
12:57:17 +Roland; got it
12:57:33 +Gregory_Rosmaita
12:57:35 -Gregory_Rosmaita
12:57:35 +Gregory_Rosmaita
12:58:17 mgylling has joined #xhtml
12:59:40 + +46.7.06.02.aaaa
12:59:58 previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html
13:00:10 zakim, aaaa is Markus
13:00:10 +Markus; got it
13:00:16 rrsagent, make minutes
13:00:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:00:30 zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:30 ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:32 +Steven
13:01:40 TOPIC: Agenda Review
13:01:56 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26
13:02:40 4 XHTML2 items: the P content model, Navigation (nl in or out?), Semantics and Elements versus Attributes, how to incorportate ITS
13:02:55 RM: start with news from the A.C. meeting once reach critical mass
13:03:08 alessio has joined #xhtml
13:03:16 SP: would very much like to report, but want shane and mark to be here when i do
13:03:57 RM: brief update on PER
13:04:20 zakim, who is here?
13:04:20 On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven
13:04:21 On IRC I see alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
13:05:33 +??P17
13:05:41 MG: Shane said he'd be late yesterday
13:05:48 zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
13:05:48 +Alessio; got it
13:05:49 zakim, ??P17 is Alessio
13:05:49 I already had ??P17 as Alessio, alessio
13:06:17 rrsagent, make minutes
13:06:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:06:53 scribe's note: [steven ping outliers]
13:07:43 minutes from last regularly scheduled meeting: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-xhtml-minutes.html
13:08:06 rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:08:46 RM: brief update with PER?
13:08:50 TOPIC: PER Update
13:09:34 SP: didn't make friday deadline due to AC meetings; have to get fiinished; still moritorium this week on publishing due to AC meeting, should be published next week, if all goes according to plan
13:09:45 RM: just matter of questoinnaires?
13:10:21 SP: PER has to be voted upon; extra administrivia - creating detailed questionnaires with pointers (creating now - have to go out simultaneously with PER anouncement)
13:10:26 RM: that's all we need do?
13:10:28 SP: yes
13:10:37 RM: any other administrivia?
13:10:57 scribe's note: deafining silence
13:12:27 GJR: in response to feedback and discussion at last virtual f2f i have updated the "for" attribute proposal
13:12:28 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
13:12:37 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:13:11 GJR: changes: proposed for Text Attributes collection, not Core collection
13:14:10 1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be repurposed and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels;
13:14:10 2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for: ABBR, D (the single letter "dialogue" element), DFN;
13:14:10 3. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of binding a quotation, contained in the Q element, and a corresponding CITE declaration which identifies the source of the quote;
13:14:11 4. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of marking text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as illustrated below;
13:14:13 +McCarron
13:14:21 zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
13:14:21 +ShaneM; got it
13:14:37 rrsagent, make minutes
13:14:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:15:18 TOPIC: News & Notes - AC Meeting Report
13:15:32 SP: much of AC meeting, but not all, in sphere of HTML5 and XHTML2
13:16:40 SP: started monday morning with panel - XHTML2 side represented by myself and ben adida (made cross-continental day trip); neutral people: Larry McMaster from Adobe; and HTML5 people represented mainly by David Baron
13:17:19 SP: nothing much to report about it; Hegeret was chair; put questions to panel; people in audience put questions as well -- no demos, just Q&A
13:17:24 RM: link to AC minutes?
13:17:58 http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes.html
13:18:07 http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes#item02
13:18:09 http://www.w3.org/2009/03/22-ac-minutes
13:18:13 http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-ac-minutes
13:19:21 SP: Chaals McN web standards oriented; Larry MM neutral; Sam Ruby co-chair of HTML WG; David Baron works for Mozilla, very much HTML5er; Henry Thompson, Ben Adida and myself (Steven Pemberton)
13:19:57 SP: at least 2 negative comments from audience: Daniel Glazman (not there physically but on IRC) - very anti-XHTML2
13:21:01 SP: Arun (represents mozilla) - need to ask why against XHTML2 in W3C? don't think mozilla is anti-XHTML2, but hard to separate personal opinions from corporate agendas; aim is to close down XHTML2
13:21:21 SP: good feedback after panel; lots of red herrings being spread in discussion; tried to expose falicies
13:21:40 SP: after that meeting had breakout groups - about 20 in XHTML2 breakout group
13:22:13 SP: not minuted in IRC, hand-made minutes - trying to find if up in w3c space yet
13:23:02 SP: 2 breakout groups: 1st day: discuss issues (extended panel) - on second day, discussion on what to do with situation
13:23:51 SP: second breakout more interesting; discussion unencumbered by knowledge of what XHTML2 is all about; Raman and Charlie Wiecha of IBM knes about XHTML2, but rest of participants very shallow knowledge
13:24:22 Tina has joined #xhtml
13:24:25 SP: asked who is using 2 technologies; one person said, "since HTML5 seeks to make all pages conformant to HTML5, HTML5 is what people use
13:24:44 SP: explained modularization and the packaging of modules to create XHTML2
13:25:10 SP: because our charter has always been modularization, modules are deliverables; XHTML2 is a collectoin
13:25:39 SP: Arun surprised that there are big companies using XHTML and XForms
13:26:11 SP: meeting concluded with agreement that Sam Ruby and Steven Pemberton should work on merging HTML5 and XHTML2
13:26:52 SP: made it very clear in meeting that these aren't 2 slightly different markup languages, because underlying MVC architecture in XHTML2, that is laacking in HTMl5; would have to get HTML5 WG to accept that architecture so 2 can be merged
13:27:11 q+
13:28:24 SP: if choice between merging and not merging, think should keep separate unless agree to accept XForms and extensibility
13:29:57 SP: SamR and i can discuss to ascertain options
13:30:08 SP: in conclusion, think that we are now in stronger position
13:30:44 SP: 2 things can happen: HTML5 people reject collaboration or we do merge and HTML5 people required to take our approaches on board (m12n, MVC, etc.)
13:30:56 SP: either of those 2 choices much better than shutting down XHTML2
13:31:03 q?
13:31:22 SP: SamRuby is new co-chair of HTML5 - very positive interaction with him
13:31:52 SP: Sam Ruby wants to work together, but a lot of work to herd that enourmous herd of cats in HTML WG
13:32:33 SP: doubt that core HTML5 people will accept collaboration
13:32:41 zakim, code?
13:32:41 the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
13:33:08 GJR: did sam mention the initative at mozilla to produce a rival spec to HTML5?
13:33:08 http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b
13:33:08 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665
13:34:14 +??P15
13:34:28 RM: take more stable to have third version of HTML5
13:34:47 RM: pragmatic - how to achieve a deliverable
13:34:51 Zakim, P15 is Tina
13:34:51 sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
13:34:55 SP: wasn't mentioned
13:35:04 zakim, +??P15 is Tina
13:35:04 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'
13:35:09 zakim, ??P15 is Tina
13:35:09 +Tina; got it
13:35:14 Thank ye
13:35:16 rrsagent, make minutes
13:35:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:35:19 Zakim, mute me
13:35:19 Tina should now be muted
13:35:54 GJR: previous pointers: Rob Sayre of IBM is producing a new draft which is hixie's draft minus new inventions plus all the stuff that was removed
13:36:18 RM: will be taking features from HTML5 spec and adding them on; means of incrementally deploying HTML5
13:36:19 http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978
13:36:26 GJR: being deployed by fiat now
13:36:29 Zakim, unmute me
13:36:29 Tina should no longer be muted
13:36:41 SM: more socially acceptable
13:37:11 RM: extensibility already being done by implementation by fiat of HTML5
13:37:31 SP: one discussion at AC meeting in first day's breakout group was lack of extensibility
13:37:48 SP: consensus of breakout group was extensibility needs to be supported
13:37:51 q+
13:38:01 SP: from POV of merging, extensibility essential
13:38:14 SP: long discussions about extensibility and what needs to be able to be done
13:38:30 SM: agreed upon definition of term "extensibility"?
13:39:23 SP: no definition or agreement on what would fall under rubric of extensibility; put forward strong view that people should be able to add own elements and attributes in standard way to foster new forms; cited XBL as example
13:39:34 SP: when i trace minutes for breakout groups will post link
13:39:38 ack oed
13:40:14 GJR: from WAI/PF's point of view extensibility and namespacing is essential, otherwise we will end up with ARIA 1.0 hard coded into HTML5, but we are already working on ARIA 2.0
13:41:05 GJR: WAI/PF needs to retain control over ARIA's vocabulary and definitions
13:41:22 SP: some people surprised that ARIA sprang from XHTML Role Module
13:41:54 SP: good to have BenA there on first day; would be wrong to give XML serialization to a group of people who fundamentally oppose and disllike XML/XHTML
13:41:59 -ShaneM
13:42:10 s/would be/Ben stated that it would be/
13:42:13 rrsagent, make minutes
13:42:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:42:29 RM: return to this later - have a few comments
13:42:46 SP: worth watching discussion on AC forum; have to be on AC to contribute
13:43:03 GJR: one could always use www-archive for comments pointed at AC
13:43:25 SP: encouraged by meeting; interested in how the rest of the HTML WG responds to combining 2 groups
13:43:34 RM: should consider ramifications for XHTML
13:43:58 SP: LarryMM suggested i co-chair with Sam - not feasible
13:46:46 +ShaneM
13:46:56 s/not feasible/not my idea of fun at the moment :-)/
13:46:57 RM: first 2 topics also being worked on by HTML5
13:47:07 TOPIC: The P content model
13:47:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
13:47:28 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout1/results
13:47:32 RM: HTML5 doing much of what we are doing with P - placing limitations on it
13:47:54 Zakim, mute me
13:47:54 Tina should now be muted
13:47:57 SP: pasted pointer to breakout session described above into IRC
13:48:07 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:48:19 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout2/results
13:48:23 rrsagent, make minutes
13:48:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:48:38 SP: day 2 hasn't been posted yet - Sam Ruby making minutes
13:49:25 -ShaneM
13:49:48 +ShaneM
13:50:03 TH (from cited post): "I would argue that common concept of a paragraph is quite different
13:50:03 from that we currently use in the XHTML draft, and that we should
13:50:03 change it so that it reflect the way a paragraph is normally understood
13:50:03 by authors, namely the way it is currently defined in the XHTML 1.*
13:50:03 series languages."
13:50:47 TH (via post): "Note that I do not in any way claim there are no need to render, for instance, a paragraph on the side of, or even around, a table. What I am saying is that the structure of a paragraph does not admit itself to contain a table, a pre, or even a blockquote. A list is an edge case, but should we allow this I suggest the creation of an inline list element type."
13:51:06 RM: P content model as defined in present draft cause anyone a problem
13:51:38 SP: background: when originally designing text part of XHTML2, had a number of comments about the P content model not matching what perception of P is
13:52:12 SP: P defined in HTML4x too simple - could not embed images or table in paragraph; request was for things embedded in P be part of content model
13:52:50 SP: current content model of P is an attempt to do that - represent as much as possible the context of the paragraph, but also attempt to avoid P nested in P - P nested in TABLE cannot have child P
13:53:15 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
13:53:46 from current Editor's draft: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent the concept of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text. Note however that they may not contain directly nested p elements."
13:53:52 (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
13:54:20 GJR notes he has proposal to deprecate TABLE for layout/style as BLOCKQUOTE for that use was deprecated in HTML4x
13:55:22 SP: always been opinion of this WG; don't explicitly say "deprecated", but agree that TABLEs are TABLEs and stylesheets should be used for layout
13:55:51 SP: proposed TABLE role="presentation" doesn't undo the damage, in fact almost encourages it
13:55:59 GJR: strong agreement - wrong approach
13:56:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html
13:57:19 AC: no presentation - OBJECT should be used to embed video, audio, or presentation
13:57:42 AC: more like a user-modality for TABLE - agree with SP and GJR that layout tables should be banned
13:59:36 SP: understand TH's point of view - current model allows one to represent data in that way; there are also those who belive that a P can have an embeded table or list - content doesn't change because child of P - styling up to stylesheets; neither POV is disallowed - accomodates both- up to author to decide what to use
13:59:49 TH (from post) "But frankly I feel we have a problem. When humans communicate we do so by agreeing on the of words - and various other things outside the scope of this comment - so that when I say banana, you know its not an orange of which I speak."
14:00:12 zakim, who is here
14:00:12 ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
14:00:16 zakim, who is here?
14:00:16 On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven, Alessio, Tina (muted), ShaneM
14:00:18 On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot
14:00:25 tina?
14:00:29 I am, but noise in office
14:00:44 tina, can you explain your proposed changes to P content model
14:00:57 oedipus: certainly. We keep the one currently in use for HTML.
14:01:12 RM: would like more examples - if want P element with example and discussion of this issue - could do this way (compatible with past) or new way
14:01:37 SP: TH wants to exclude people who believe P is something different than what she is proposing
14:01:53 RM: irritating when have to change prose into a list
14:02:25 RM: if write normal english: ingredients are: a) , b), c), but cannot style as list because is prose list
14:02:33 RM: that is standard natural language usage
14:03:10 ingredients are: a; b; c.
14:03:14 s/a) , b), c), / a) ; b) ; c);/
14:03:19 rrsagent, make minutes
14:03:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:03:32 SP: including a list in P is perfectly valid
14:03:39 RM: examples would help
14:04:24 SP: opened a book "a case in point is blogs:" followed by list of 10 items; i content that in natural language usage that is a single paragraph, but HTML doesn't allow the list to be part of the P
14:04:46 GJR: agree - whether list is prose or formatted as list, belongs to the P and should be inside the P
14:04:53 +1
14:04:56 A suggestion, as quoted from me, above would be to allow lists - possibly inline lists - but exclude other use.
14:05:05 RM: alternative: leave as is, insert 2 examples, and note asking for feedback
14:05:46 ACTION - Gregory: draft example of P with prose list and structural list
14:05:46 Sorry, couldn't find user - -
14:05:59 ACTION: Gregory - draft example of P with prose list and structural list
14:05:59 Created ACTION-65 - - draft example of P with prose list and structural list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02].
14:06:59 tina, could you provide examples of other uses of P?
14:07:16 or a list of what you would exclude from the P content model?
14:07:19 No, I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, in particular if we are speaking merging the two WGs - HTML 5 design principles, if memory serve, insist on backward compatibility. Until it decided whether to merge or not the discussion is moot.
14:07:39 RM: only one causing difficulty with P content model is TABLE
14:08:07 RM: list, blockquote, pre and table
14:08:13 (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
14:08:16 GJR: why blockquote and not blockcode?
14:08:30 SP: blockcode is part of content model
14:08:44 RM: what is normative? DTD or spec?
14:08:51 SM: spec always wins
14:09:03 RM: where spec doesn't include blockcode, bug in DTD
14:09:12 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p
14:09:18 SM: no DTD for XHTML2
14:09:26 SP: not from DTD but modulariztion code
14:09:40 RM: still looking at what we pointed to originally
14:09:48 RM: list, blockquote, pre and TABLE
14:10:00 SP: english text is wrong - should also include blockcode
14:10:19 SP: module text at top is definitive version
14:10:45 RESOLVED: fix XHTML2 prose to include blockcode
14:11:05 SM: shouldn't be in text
14:11:08 SP: plus 1 to that
14:11:20 GJR: following wiser heads like a lemming
14:11:29 SM: no other element describes content model in prose
14:11:47