16:22:13 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:22:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc 16:22:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:22:15 Zakim has joined #ua 16:22:17 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:22:17 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes 16:22:18 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:22:18 Date: 26 March 2009 16:23:18 Chair: Jim_Allan 16:26:48 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0091.html 16:28:15 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 16:28:34 Agenda+ Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal 16:28:50 Agenda+ CSUN Discussion 16:29:07 Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ 16:29:19 Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ 16:29:30 Agenda+ Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/ 16:29:45 Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ 16:30:00 Agenda+ overflow http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0087.html 16:30:12 Agenda+ MaxLength and screen readers 16:30:53 zakim, save agenda 16:31:00 ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf 16:33:07 rrs agent, make minutes 16:33:23 rrsagent, make minutes 16:33:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord 16:35:43 zakim, save agenda 16:35:43 ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf 16:37:56 zakim, help 16:37:56 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 16:37:58 Some of the commands I know are: 16:38:00 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 16:38:03 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 16:38:05 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 16:38:07 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 16:38:10 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 16:38:12 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 16:38:14 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 16:38:17 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 16:38:20 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 16:38:22 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 16:38:25 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 16:38:28 list conferences - reports the active conferences 16:38:29 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 16:38:31 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 16:38:32 I last learned something new on $Date: 2009/03/26 18:06:25 $ 16:48:15 jeanne has joined #ua 16:54:23 rrsagent, make logs public 16:54:30 rrsagent, make minutes 16:54:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 16:55:39 zakim, save agenda 16:55:39 ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf 16:56:18 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:56:25 +[Microsoft] 16:56:36 zakim microsoft is kford 16:57:44 Regrets: Henny_Swan 16:58:00 zakim, who's here? 16:58:00 On the phone I see [Microsoft] 16:58:01 On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot 16:59:08 sharper has joined #ua 16:59:31 zakim, code? 16:59:31 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 16:59:40 +Jeanne 17:00:57 present+ Harper_Simon 17:01:20 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf 17:01:28 rrsagent, make minutes 17:01:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord 17:01:39 JR has joined #ua 17:01:45 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:01:47 zakim, code? 17:01:47 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR 17:02:25 +??P9 17:02:29 zakim, ??P9 is sharper 17:02:29 +sharper; got it 17:03:23 +[IPcaller] 17:03:37 zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR 17:03:37 +JR; got it 17:03:38 zakim, who's here? 17:03:38 On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR 17:03:39 On IRC I see mhakkinen, JR, sharper, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot 17:04:38 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:04:41 present+kford 17:05:39 -Mark_Hakkinen 17:06:36 zakim take up item 1 17:07:13 rrsagent, make minutes 17:07:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:07:17 Scribe: JR 17:07:17 zakim list agenda 17:07:36 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:07:48 zakim, take up first item 17:07:48 I don't understand 'take up first item', KFord 17:07:51 Zakim, take up agendum 1 17:07:51 agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord] 17:08:23 KF: I'm still waiting for JB to make me offical... 17:08:40 KF: JA is asking me to be more active in running meetings 17:08:57 Zakim, close this item 17:08:57 agendum 1 closed 17:08:58 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:08:59 2. Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal [from KFord] 17:09:01 Zakim, take up next item 17:09:01 agendum 2. "Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal" taken up [from KFord] 17:09:23 JS: I have extended the attendance survey 17:09:48 KF: We started on the alt concensus - overall WAI feedback to HTML5 17:10:05 KF: What feedback do we have? SHould figure it out today 17:10:24 KF: Any thoughts 17:10:44 JS: I like what you were saying Kelly about it being too complicated 17:10:55 JS: I've been asking people about that 17:11:17 MH: Question...has this doc been sent to HTML5 yet? 17:11:30 KF: My understanding...it has not been sent yet 17:11:42 KF: WAI-CG asking for WAI feedback first 17:11:58 JR: KF is correct 17:12:55 KF: So do we think we can stand behind this? 17:13:26 JR: Not perfect but I can stand behind it 17:14:55 MH: bottom line? 17:15:50 JR,JS: Some form of alt is required 17:17:01 JR: But still may not meet HTML5's hope for validity without alt 17:17:29 MH: Bug me: absence of something is said to be indicator of the image 17:18:08 MH: I'd like to see role required to resoundingly say image is an image 17:18:59 JR: It was a difficult discussion because some said that whatever we did had to be backwards compatible. If we made "role" required, it would break every image on the Web. 17:19:05 MH: Understood 17:19:46 JR: The absence of a value for alt was the crux of the problem, that there wasn't a way to show whether it was missing from being ignored or whether it was a decorative image 17:20:35 KF: My perspective...assuming a lot of intelligent people...but I'm not comfortable 17:21:14 KF: IN HTML4 I know what I have to do 17:22:08 KF: For accessibility 17:22:56 +Jim_Allan 17:24:31 KF: I would be ok with 1) use alt="meaningful" and 2) use role="presentation" along with alt="" 17:24:38 MH: I'd support that 17:25:35 KF: clarify 2) is a warning 17:26:13 JR: alt is still required, and if alt="" then also use role = "presentation" 17:27:14 JR: alt="" cannot have two means - 1) I want validity and don't care about accessibility OR 2) I care about accessibiliy and this image is decorative. 17:27:44 KF: I have a concern that role="presentation" may be removed from the DOM and lost. 17:27:50 KF: There is concern with role=presentation 17:28:00 KF: We could take this up later 17:28:08 KF: We can take that up as part of ARIA last call discussion. 17:30:17 JR: Points out the need for repetitive alt if author wants to use labelled-by 17:30:45 KF: That's my concern...going to aria forces users to have latest and greatest 17:32:14 JA: Process for commenting? 17:32:26 JR: Indiv or group. 17:32:36 JA: Suggestions wanted? 17:32:46 JR: Yes 17:33:43 JA: Ofk so could we vote on UA proposals next week 17:34:43 KF: Two actions 1) communicate to CG - we do not have concensus, we will be looking at alternatives 17:35:04 KF: One alternative could be not concensus form UAAG 17:35:34 KF: We owe them a mail before wed. that KF will do 17:35:52 Action: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG. 17:35:52 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 17:36:31 Action JR: Formulate simplified version with alt still required 17:36:31 Created ACTION-163 - Formulate simplified version with alt still required [on Jan Richards - due 2009-04-02]. 17:36:49 action: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG 17:36:49 Created ACTION-164 - Communicate current alt opinion to CG [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-04-02]. 17:36:54 Action: kford update CG on alt status 17:36:54 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 17:37:24 KF: Other thoughts 17:37:32 MH: Will send thoughts to list 17:37:46 MH: Concerned with less capable device fallback 17:39:14 MH: How much ARIA support 17:39:34 KF: Firefox, IE8, Safari, not sure about Opera 17:39:52 KF: HTML5 itslef...bits and pieces in all browsers 17:40:17 Zakim, close this item 17:40:17 agendum 2 closed 17:40:18 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:40:19 3. CSUN Discussion [from KFord] 17:40:22 Zakim, take up next item 17:40:22 agendum 3. "CSUN Discussion" taken up [from KFord] 17:40:53 KF: Most of JA's thoughts in post 17:41:06 JA: Henny wanted to know where slides are? 17:41:20 JS: I could send PDF to group then figure out how to post 17:41:30 JA: Thought presentation went well 17:41:46 JA: Tough week for me, but went well - got thoughts across 17:42:15 JA: Heard some people say "onerous"...but not constructive... 17:42:30 JA: But maybe we can have another drfat out by end of May 17:42:45 KF: Anyone we should target for recruitment? 17:42:54 JS: I had a lot of followup 17:45:45 JS: Mentions Microsoft, Mozilla, NVDA, Apple 17:46:28 JS: Also spoke with someone who was on TEITAC 17:46:42 JA: I got some other contacts 17:47:03 KF: Anything we can do to recruit them would be great. 17:47:26 Zakim, close this item 17:47:26 agendum 3 closed 17:47:27 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:47:28 4. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from KFord] 17:47:32 Zakim, take up next item 17:47:32 agendum 4. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from KFord] 17:48:08 KF: Let's leave survey to next week 17:48:17 Zakim, close this item 17:48:17 agendum 4 closed 17:48:18 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:48:20 5. Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ [from KFord] 17:48:23 Zakim, take up next item 17:48:23 agendum 5. "Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/" taken up [from KFord] 17:48:45 KF: Jim sent some thoughts. 17:49:16 JA: I just thought there were a bunch of concepts we could use..."primary, secondary interfaces"... 17:49:41 JA: Couple things to communicate to web security people...they should reference UAAG as well as just WCAG 17:49:55 JA: Other than that, just some definitional concerns 17:50:03 JA: One was level of alerts 17:50:33 JA: e.g., Caution alrets, danger alerts....how to communicate these 17:50:49 KF: Sounds good 17:51:36 JA: I think we can use this to make our GL better and give them some stuff too 17:51:48 Zakim, close this item 17:51:48 agendum 5 closed 17:51:49 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:51:50 6. Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/ [from KFord] 17:51:53 Zakim, take up next item 17:51:53 agendum 6. "Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/" taken up [from KFord] 17:52:14 KF: THing to note is that we did release a draft...any feedback yet? 17:52:19 JS: Not sure 17:52:43 KF: please evangelize this draft...blogs...social networking etc. 17:53:07 KF: UAAG still important...we need to get the word out 17:53:17 KF: We need to succeed 17:53:40 JS: Agree+much greater interest than in the past 17:53:47 JS: No feedback yet 17:53:58 Zakim, close this item 17:53:58 agendum 6 closed 17:53:59 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:54:00 7. WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ [from KFord] 17:54:02 Zakim, take up next item 17:54:02 agendum 7. "WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/" taken up [from KFord] 17:54:15 KF: Date moved to April ?? 17:54:43 KF: Prob we'll ask a couple people at next call 17:54:47 JA: I volunteer 17:55:02 KF: I'm willing to look as well 17:55:19 KF: Mark? 17:55:29 MH: Yes 17:55:57 Action JA: and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA 17:55:57 Created ACTION-165 - And JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [on Jim Allan - due 2009-04-02]. 17:56:40 KF: Let's move rest to next week 17:57:06 -Mark_Hakkinen 17:57:07 -Jim_Allan 17:57:28 -JR 17:57:30 -kford 17:57:32 -sharper 17:57:38 rrsagent, make minutes 17:57:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:59:59 present+ Jim_Allan, Jan_Richards, Mark_Hakkinen, Jeanne_Spellman 18:00:38 rrsagent, make minutes 18:00:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:00:53 zakim, bye 18:00:53 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen, Jim_Allan 18:00:53 Zakim has left #ua 18:05:58 rrsagent, bye 18:05:58 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-actions.rdf : 18:05:58 ACTION: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG. [1] 18:05:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-35-52 18:05:58 ACTION: JR to Formulate simplified version with alt still required [2] 18:05:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-31 18:05:58 ACTION: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG [3] 18:05:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-49 18:05:58 ACTION: kford update CG on alt status [4] 18:05:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-54 18:05:58 ACTION: JA to and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [5] 18:05:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-55-57