IRC log of ua on 2009-03-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:22:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:22:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc
16:22:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:22:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:22:17 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:22:17 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
16:22:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:22:18 [trackbot]
Date: 26 March 2009
16:23:18 [KFord]
Chair: Jim_Allan
16:26:48 [KFord]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0091.html
16:28:15 [KFord]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:28:34 [KFord]
Agenda+ Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
16:28:50 [KFord]
Agenda+ CSUN Discussion
16:29:07 [KFord]
Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
16:29:19 [KFord]
Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/
16:29:30 [KFord]
Agenda+ Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/
16:29:45 [KFord]
Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/
16:30:00 [KFord]
Agenda+ overflow http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0087.html
16:30:12 [KFord]
Agenda+ MaxLength and screen readers
16:30:53 [KFord]
zakim, save agenda
16:31:00 [Zakim]
ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf
16:33:07 [KFord]
rrs agent, make minutes
16:33:23 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord
16:35:43 [KFord]
zakim, save agenda
16:35:43 [Zakim]
ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf
16:37:56 [KFord]
zakim, help
16:37:56 [Zakim]
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
16:37:58 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
16:38:00 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:38:03 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:38:05 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:38:07 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:38:10 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:38:12 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:38:14 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
16:38:17 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
16:38:20 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:38:22 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:38:25 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:38:28 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:38:29 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:38:31 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
16:38:32 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $
16:48:15 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:54:23 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:30 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
16:55:39 [KFord]
zakim, save agenda
16:55:39 [Zakim]
ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf
16:56:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:56:25 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:56:36 [KFord]
zakim microsoft is kford
16:57:44 [KFord]
Regrets: Henny_Swan
16:58:00 [KFord]
zakim, who's here?
16:58:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft]
16:58:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot
16:59:08 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:59:31 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
16:59:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
16:59:40 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:00:57 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon
17:01:20 [KFord]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf
17:01:28 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord
17:01:39 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
17:01:45 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:01:47 [JR]
zakim, code?
17:01:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
17:02:25 [Zakim]
+??P9
17:02:29 [sharper]
zakim, ??P9 is sharper
17:02:29 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:03:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:03:37 [JR]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR
17:03:37 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
17:03:38 [KFord]
zakim, who's here?
17:03:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR
17:03:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mhakkinen, JR, sharper, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot
17:04:38 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:04:41 [KFord]
present+kford
17:05:39 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:06:36 [KFord]
zakim take up item 1
17:07:13 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:07:17 [JR]
Scribe: JR
17:07:17 [KFord]
zakim list agenda
17:07:36 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:07:48 [KFord]
zakim, take up first item
17:07:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up first item', KFord
17:07:51 [JR]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
17:07:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord]
17:08:23 [JR]
KF: I'm still waiting for JB to make me offical...
17:08:40 [JR]
KF: JA is asking me to be more active in running meetings
17:08:57 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:08:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
17:08:58 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:59 [Zakim]
2. Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal [from KFord]
17:09:01 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:09:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal" taken up [from KFord]
17:09:23 [JR]
JS: I have extended the attendance survey
17:09:48 [JR]
KF: We started on the alt concensus - overall WAI feedback to HTML5
17:10:05 [JR]
KF: What feedback do we have? SHould figure it out today
17:10:24 [JR]
KF: Any thoughts
17:10:44 [JR]
JS: I like what you were saying Kelly about it being too complicated
17:10:55 [JR]
JS: I've been asking people about that
17:11:17 [JR]
MH: Question...has this doc been sent to HTML5 yet?
17:11:30 [JR]
KF: My understanding...it has not been sent yet
17:11:42 [JR]
KF: WAI-CG asking for WAI feedback first
17:11:58 [JR]
JR: KF is correct
17:12:55 [JR]
KF: So do we think we can stand behind this?
17:13:26 [JR]
JR: Not perfect but I can stand behind it
17:14:55 [JR]
MH: bottom line?
17:15:50 [JR]
JR,JS: Some form of alt is required
17:17:01 [JR]
JR: But still may not meet HTML5's hope for validity without alt
17:17:29 [JR]
MH: Bug me: absence of something is said to be indicator of the image
17:18:08 [JR]
MH: I'd like to see role required to resoundingly say image is an image
17:18:59 [jeanne]
JR: It was a difficult discussion because some said that whatever we did had to be backwards compatible. If we made "role" required, it would break every image on the Web.
17:19:05 [JR]
MH: Understood
17:19:46 [jeanne]
JR: The absence of a value for alt was the crux of the problem, that there wasn't a way to show whether it was missing from being ignored or whether it was a decorative image
17:20:35 [JR]
KF: My perspective...assuming a lot of intelligent people...but I'm not comfortable
17:21:14 [JR]
KF: IN HTML4 I know what I have to do
17:22:08 [JR]
KF: For accessibility
17:22:56 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:24:31 [JR]
KF: I would be ok with 1) use alt="meaningful" and 2) use role="presentation" along with alt=""
17:24:38 [JR]
MH: I'd support that
17:25:35 [JR]
KF: clarify 2) is a warning
17:26:13 [jeanne]
JR: alt is still required, and if alt="" then also use role = "presentation"
17:27:14 [jeanne]
JR: alt="" cannot have two means - 1) I want validity and don't care about accessibility OR 2) I care about accessibiliy and this image is decorative.
17:27:44 [jeanne]
KF: I have a concern that role="presentation" may be removed from the DOM and lost.
17:27:50 [JR]
KF: There is concern with role=presentation
17:28:00 [JR]
KF: We could take this up later
17:28:08 [jeanne]
KF: We can take that up as part of ARIA last call discussion.
17:30:17 [JR]
JR: Points out the need for repetitive alt if author wants to use labelled-by
17:30:45 [JR]
KF: That's my concern...going to aria forces users to have latest and greatest
17:32:14 [JR]
JA: Process for commenting?
17:32:26 [JR]
JR: Indiv or group.
17:32:36 [JR]
JA: Suggestions wanted?
17:32:46 [JR]
JR: Yes
17:33:43 [JR]
JA: Ofk so could we vote on UA proposals next week
17:34:43 [JR]
KF: Two actions 1) communicate to CG - we do not have concensus, we will be looking at alternatives
17:35:04 [JR]
KF: One alternative could be not concensus form UAAG
17:35:34 [JR]
KF: We owe them a mail before wed. that KF will do
17:35:52 [KFord]
Action: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG.
17:35:52 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
17:36:31 [JR]
Action JR: Formulate simplified version with alt still required
17:36:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-163 - Formulate simplified version with alt still required [on Jan Richards - due 2009-04-02].
17:36:49 [jeanne]
action: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG
17:36:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-164 - Communicate current alt opinion to CG [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-04-02].
17:36:54 [KFord]
Action: kford update CG on alt status
17:36:54 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
17:37:24 [JR]
KF: Other thoughts
17:37:32 [JR]
MH: Will send thoughts to list
17:37:46 [JR]
MH: Concerned with less capable device fallback
17:39:14 [JR]
MH: How much ARIA support
17:39:34 [JR]
KF: Firefox, IE8, Safari, not sure about Opera
17:39:52 [JR]
KF: HTML5 itslef...bits and pieces in all browsers
17:40:17 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:40:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:40:18 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:40:19 [Zakim]
3. CSUN Discussion [from KFord]
17:40:22 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:40:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "CSUN Discussion" taken up [from KFord]
17:40:53 [JR]
KF: Most of JA's thoughts in post
17:41:06 [JR]
JA: Henny wanted to know where slides are?
17:41:20 [JR]
JS: I could send PDF to group then figure out how to post
17:41:30 [JR]
JA: Thought presentation went well
17:41:46 [JR]
JA: Tough week for me, but went well - got thoughts across
17:42:15 [JR]
JA: Heard some people say "onerous"...but not constructive...
17:42:30 [JR]
JA: But maybe we can have another drfat out by end of May
17:42:45 [JR]
KF: Anyone we should target for recruitment?
17:42:54 [JR]
JS: I had a lot of followup
17:45:45 [JR]
JS: Mentions Microsoft, Mozilla, NVDA, Apple
17:46:28 [JR]
JS: Also spoke with someone who was on TEITAC
17:46:42 [JR]
JA: I got some other contacts
17:47:03 [JR]
KF: Anything we can do to recruit them would be great.
17:47:26 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:47:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
17:47:27 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:47:28 [Zakim]
4. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from KFord]
17:47:32 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:47:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from KFord]
17:48:08 [JR]
KF: Let's leave survey to next week
17:48:17 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:48:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
17:48:18 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:48:20 [Zakim]
5. Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ [from KFord]
17:48:23 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:48:23 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/" taken up [from KFord]
17:48:45 [JR]
KF: Jim sent some thoughts.
17:49:16 [JR]
JA: I just thought there were a bunch of concepts we could use..."primary, secondary interfaces"...
17:49:41 [JR]
JA: Couple things to communicate to web security people...they should reference UAAG as well as just WCAG
17:49:55 [JR]
JA: Other than that, just some definitional concerns
17:50:03 [JR]
JA: One was level of alerts
17:50:33 [JR]
JA: e.g., Caution alrets, danger alerts....how to communicate these
17:50:49 [JR]
KF: Sounds good
17:51:36 [JR]
JA: I think we can use this to make our GL better and give them some stuff too
17:51:48 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:51:48 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
17:51:49 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:51:50 [Zakim]
6. Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/ [from KFord]
17:51:53 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:51:53 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/" taken up [from KFord]
17:52:14 [JR]
KF: THing to note is that we did release a draft...any feedback yet?
17:52:19 [JR]
JS: Not sure
17:52:43 [JR]
KF: please evangelize this draft...blogs...social networking etc.
17:53:07 [JR]
KF: UAAG still important...we need to get the word out
17:53:17 [JR]
KF: We need to succeed
17:53:40 [JR]
JS: Agree+much greater interest than in the past
17:53:47 [JR]
JS: No feedback yet
17:53:58 [JR]
Zakim, close this item
17:53:58 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
17:53:59 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:54:00 [Zakim]
7. WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ [from KFord]
17:54:02 [JR]
Zakim, take up next item
17:54:02 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/" taken up [from KFord]
17:54:15 [JR]
KF: Date moved to April ??
17:54:43 [JR]
KF: Prob we'll ask a couple people at next call
17:54:47 [JR]
JA: I volunteer
17:55:02 [JR]
KF: I'm willing to look as well
17:55:19 [JR]
KF: Mark?
17:55:29 [JR]
MH: Yes
17:55:57 [JR]
Action JA: and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA
17:55:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-165 - And JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [on Jim Allan - due 2009-04-02].
17:56:40 [JR]
KF: Let's move rest to next week
17:57:06 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:57:07 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
17:57:28 [Zakim]
-JR
17:57:30 [Zakim]
-kford
17:57:32 [Zakim]
-sharper
17:57:38 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:59:59 [jeanne]
present+ Jim_Allan, Jan_Richards, Mark_Hakkinen, Jeanne_Spellman
18:00:38 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:00:53 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
18:00:53 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen, Jim_Allan
18:00:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:05:58 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-actions.rdf :
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG. [1]
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-35-52
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Formulate simplified version with alt still required [2]
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-31
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG [3]
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-49
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford update CG on alt status [4]
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-54
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [5]
18:05:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-55-57