IRC log of ua on 2009-03-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:22:13 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #ua

16:22:13 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc

16:22:15 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:22:15 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #ua

16:22:17 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG

16:22:17 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes

16:22:18 [trackbot]

Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

16:22:18 [trackbot]

Date: 26 March 2009

16:23:18 [KFord]

Chair: Jim_Allan

16:26:48 [KFord]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0091.html

16:28:15 [KFord]

Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?

16:28:34 [KFord]

Agenda+ Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal

16:28:50 [KFord]

Agenda+ CSUN Discussion

16:29:07 [KFord]

Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/

16:29:19 [KFord]

Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/

16:29:30 [KFord]

Agenda+ Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/

16:29:45 [KFord]

Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/

16:30:00 [KFord]

Agenda+ overflow http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0087.html

16:30:12 [KFord]

Agenda+ MaxLength and screen readers

16:30:53 [KFord]

zakim, save agenda

16:31:00 [Zakim]

ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf

16:33:07 [KFord]

rrs agent, make minutes

16:33:23 [KFord]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:33:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord

16:35:43 [KFord]

zakim, save agenda

16:35:43 [Zakim]

ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf

16:37:56 [KFord]

zakim, help

16:37:56 [Zakim]

Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.

16:37:58 [Zakim]

Some of the commands I know are:

16:38:00 [Zakim]

xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx

16:38:03 [Zakim]

if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted

16:38:05 [Zakim]

xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx

16:38:07 [Zakim]

I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx

16:38:10 [Zakim]

xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group

16:38:12 [Zakim]

xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx

16:38:14 [Zakim]

who's here? - lists the participants on the phone

16:38:17 [Zakim]

who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted

16:38:20 [Zakim]

mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)

16:38:22 [Zakim]

unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#

16:38:25 [Zakim]

is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present

16:38:28 [Zakim]

list conferences - reports the active conferences

16:38:29 [Zakim]

this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx

16:38:31 [Zakim]

excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel

16:38:32 [Zakim]

I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $

16:48:15 [jeanne]

jeanne has joined #ua

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rrsagent, make logs public

16:54:30 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:54:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne

16:55:39 [KFord]

zakim, save agenda

16:55:39 [Zakim]

ok, KFord, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf

16:56:18 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started

16:56:25 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

16:56:36 [KFord]

zakim microsoft is kford

16:57:44 [KFord]

Regrets: Henny_Swan

16:58:00 [KFord]

zakim, who's here?

16:58:00 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Microsoft]

16:58:01 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot

16:59:08 [sharper]

sharper has joined #ua

16:59:31 [jeanne]

zakim, code?

16:59:31 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne

16:59:40 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:00:57 [sharper]

present+ Harper_Simon

17:01:20 [KFord]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-agenda.rdf

17:01:28 [KFord]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:01:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html KFord

17:01:39 [JR]

JR has joined #ua

17:01:45 [mhakkinen]

mhakkinen has joined #ua

17:01:47 [JR]

zakim, code?

17:01:47 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR

17:02:25 [Zakim]

+??P9

17:02:29 [sharper]

zakim, ??P9 is sharper

17:02:29 [Zakim]

+sharper; got it

17:03:23 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

17:03:37 [JR]

zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR

17:03:37 [Zakim]

+JR; got it

17:03:38 [KFord]

zakim, who's here?

17:03:38 [Zakim]

On the phone I see kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR

17:03:39 [Zakim]

On IRC I see mhakkinen, JR, sharper, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KFord, trackbot

17:04:38 [Zakim]

+Mark_Hakkinen

17:04:41 [KFord]

present+kford

17:05:39 [Zakim]

-Mark_Hakkinen

17:06:36 [KFord]

zakim take up item 1

17:07:13 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:07:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne

17:07:17 [JR]

Scribe: JR

17:07:17 [KFord]

zakim list agenda

17:07:36 [Zakim]

+Mark_Hakkinen

17:07:48 [KFord]

zakim, take up first item

17:07:48 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up first item', KFord

17:07:51 [JR]

Zakim, take up agendum 1

17:07:51 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord]

17:08:23 [JR]

KF: I'm still waiting for JB to make me offical...

17:08:40 [JR]

KF: JA is asking me to be more active in running meetings

17:08:57 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:08:57 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

17:08:58 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:08:59 [Zakim]

2. Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal [from KFord]

17:09:01 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:09:01 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Consensus on alt http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal" taken up [from KFord]

17:09:23 [JR]

JS: I have extended the attendance survey

17:09:48 [JR]

KF: We started on the alt concensus - overall WAI feedback to HTML5

17:10:05 [JR]

KF: What feedback do we have? SHould figure it out today

17:10:24 [JR]

KF: Any thoughts

17:10:44 [JR]

JS: I like what you were saying Kelly about it being too complicated

17:10:55 [JR]

JS: I've been asking people about that

17:11:17 [JR]

MH: Question...has this doc been sent to HTML5 yet?

17:11:30 [JR]

KF: My understanding...it has not been sent yet

17:11:42 [JR]

KF: WAI-CG asking for WAI feedback first

17:11:58 [JR]

JR: KF is correct

17:12:55 [JR]

KF: So do we think we can stand behind this?

17:13:26 [JR]

JR: Not perfect but I can stand behind it

17:14:55 [JR]

MH: bottom line?

17:15:50 [JR]

JR,JS: Some form of alt is required

17:17:01 [JR]

JR: But still may not meet HTML5's hope for validity without alt

17:17:29 [JR]

MH: Bug me: absence of something is said to be indicator of the image

17:18:08 [JR]

MH: I'd like to see role required to resoundingly say image is an image

17:18:59 [jeanne]

JR: It was a difficult discussion because some said that whatever we did had to be backwards compatible. If we made "role" required, it would break every image on the Web.

17:19:05 [JR]

MH: Understood

17:19:46 [jeanne]

JR: The absence of a value for alt was the crux of the problem, that there wasn't a way to show whether it was missing from being ignored or whether it was a decorative image

17:20:35 [JR]

KF: My perspective...assuming a lot of intelligent people...but I'm not comfortable

17:21:14 [JR]

KF: IN HTML4 I know what I have to do

17:22:08 [JR]

KF: For accessibility

17:22:56 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

17:24:31 [JR]

KF: I would be ok with 1) use alt="meaningful" and 2) use role="presentation" along with alt=""

17:24:38 [JR]

MH: I'd support that

17:25:35 [JR]

KF: clarify 2) is a warning

17:26:13 [jeanne]

JR: alt is still required, and if alt="" then also use role = "presentation"

17:27:14 [jeanne]

JR: alt="" cannot have two means - 1) I want validity and don't care about accessibility OR 2) I care about accessibiliy and this image is decorative.

17:27:44 [jeanne]

KF: I have a concern that role="presentation" may be removed from the DOM and lost.

17:27:50 [JR]

KF: There is concern with role=presentation

17:28:00 [JR]

KF: We could take this up later

17:28:08 [jeanne]

KF: We can take that up as part of ARIA last call discussion.

17:30:17 [JR]

JR: Points out the need for repetitive alt if author wants to use labelled-by

17:30:45 [JR]

KF: That's my concern...going to aria forces users to have latest and greatest

17:32:14 [JR]

JA: Process for commenting?

17:32:26 [JR]

JR: Indiv or group.

17:32:36 [JR]

JA: Suggestions wanted?

17:32:46 [JR]

JR: Yes

17:33:43 [JR]

JA: Ofk so could we vote on UA proposals next week

17:34:43 [JR]

KF: Two actions 1) communicate to CG - we do not have concensus, we will be looking at alternatives

17:35:04 [JR]

KF: One alternative could be not concensus form UAAG

17:35:34 [JR]

KF: We owe them a mail before wed. that KF will do

17:35:52 [KFord]

Action: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG.

17:35:52 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - kford

17:36:31 [JR]

Action JR: Formulate simplified version with alt still required

17:36:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-163 - Formulate simplified version with alt still required [on Jan Richards - due 2009-04-02].

17:36:49 [jeanne]

action: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG

17:36:49 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-164 - Communicate current alt opinion to CG [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-04-02].

17:36:54 [KFord]

Action: kford update CG on alt status

17:36:54 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - kford

17:37:24 [JR]

KF: Other thoughts

17:37:32 [JR]

MH: Will send thoughts to list

17:37:46 [JR]

MH: Concerned with less capable device fallback

17:39:14 [JR]

MH: How much ARIA support

17:39:34 [JR]

KF: Firefox, IE8, Safari, not sure about Opera

17:39:52 [JR]

KF: HTML5 itslef...bits and pieces in all browsers

17:40:17 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:40:17 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

17:40:18 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:40:19 [Zakim]

3. CSUN Discussion [from KFord]

17:40:22 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:40:22 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "CSUN Discussion" taken up [from KFord]

17:40:53 [JR]

KF: Most of JA's thoughts in post

17:41:06 [JR]

JA: Henny wanted to know where slides are?

17:41:20 [JR]

JS: I could send PDF to group then figure out how to post

17:41:30 [JR]

JA: Thought presentation went well

17:41:46 [JR]

JA: Tough week for me, but went well - got thoughts across

17:42:15 [JR]

JA: Heard some people say "onerous"...but not constructive...

17:42:30 [JR]

JA: But maybe we can have another drfat out by end of May

17:42:45 [JR]

KF: Anyone we should target for recruitment?

17:42:54 [JR]

JS: I had a lot of followup

17:45:45 [JR]

JS: Mentions Microsoft, Mozilla, NVDA, Apple

17:46:28 [JR]

JS: Also spoke with someone who was on TEITAC

17:46:42 [JR]

JA: I got some other contacts

17:47:03 [JR]

KF: Anything we can do to recruit them would be great.

17:47:26 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:47:26 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

17:47:27 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:47:28 [Zakim]

4. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from KFord]

17:47:32 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:47:32 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from KFord]

17:48:08 [JR]

KF: Let's leave survey to next week

17:48:17 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:48:17 [Zakim]

agendum 4 closed

17:48:18 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:48:20 [Zakim]

5. Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ [from KFord]

17:48:23 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:48:23 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/" taken up [from KFord]

17:48:45 [JR]

KF: Jim sent some thoughts.

17:49:16 [JR]

JA: I just thought there were a bunch of concepts we could use..."primary, secondary interfaces"...

17:49:41 [JR]

JA: Couple things to communicate to web security people...they should reference UAAG as well as just WCAG

17:49:55 [JR]

JA: Other than that, just some definitional concerns

17:50:03 [JR]

JA: One was level of alerts

17:50:33 [JR]

JA: e.g., Caution alrets, danger alerts....how to communicate these

17:50:49 [JR]

KF: Sounds good

17:51:36 [JR]

JA: I think we can use this to make our GL better and give them some stuff too

17:51:48 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:51:48 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

17:51:49 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:51:50 [Zakim]

6. Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/ [from KFord]

17:51:53 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:51:53 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Current editors draft actions and comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/" taken up [from KFord]

17:52:14 [JR]

KF: THing to note is that we did release a draft...any feedback yet?

17:52:19 [JR]

JS: Not sure

17:52:43 [JR]

KF: please evangelize this draft...blogs...social networking etc.

17:53:07 [JR]

KF: UAAG still important...we need to get the word out

17:53:17 [JR]

KF: We need to succeed

17:53:40 [JR]

JS: Agree+much greater interest than in the past

17:53:47 [JR]

JS: No feedback yet

17:53:58 [JR]

Zakim, close this item

17:53:58 [Zakim]

agendum 6 closed

17:53:59 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:54:00 [Zakim]

7. WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ [from KFord]

17:54:02 [JR]

Zakim, take up next item

17:54:02 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "WAI-ARIA last call review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/" taken up [from KFord]

17:54:15 [JR]

KF: Date moved to April ??

17:54:43 [JR]

KF: Prob we'll ask a couple people at next call

17:54:47 [JR]

JA: I volunteer

17:55:02 [JR]

KF: I'm willing to look as well

17:55:19 [JR]

KF: Mark?

17:55:29 [JR]

MH: Yes

17:55:57 [JR]

Action JA: and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA

17:55:57 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-165 - And JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [on Jim Allan - due 2009-04-02].

17:56:40 [JR]

KF: Let's move rest to next week

17:57:06 [Zakim]

-Mark_Hakkinen

17:57:07 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

17:57:28 [Zakim]

-JR

17:57:30 [Zakim]

-kford

17:57:32 [Zakim]

-sharper

17:57:38 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:57:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne

17:59:59 [jeanne]

present+ Jim_Allan, Jan_Richards, Mark_Hakkinen, Jeanne_Spellman

18:00:38 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:00:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne

18:00:53 [jeanne]

zakim, bye

18:00:53 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jeanne, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen, Jim_Allan

18:00:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

18:05:58 [jeanne]

rrsagent, bye

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-actions.rdf :

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: kford communicate current alt opinion to CG. [1]

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-35-52

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JR to Formulate simplified version with alt still required [2]

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-31

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: KF to communicate current alt opinion to CG [3]

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-49

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: kford update CG on alt status [4]

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-36-54

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JA to and JA and MH to come up with inital LC comments on ARIA [5]

18:05:58 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-ua-irc#T17-55-57