15:49:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:49:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-irc
15:49:13 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:49:13 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:50:51 <fantasai> wow
15:50:58 <fantasai> Skype works over this connection
15:51:01 <fantasai> I am so impressed
15:52:47 <glazou> fantasai: : so you'll be on the call?
15:52:54 <fantasai> I think so
15:53:31 <fantasai> unless the connection to w3c is significantly worse than to skype test call
15:53:56 <glazou> ok
15:54:41 <glazou> Zakim, code ?
15:54:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:55:09 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:16 <Zakim> +glazou
15:57:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:27 <glazou> Zakim: IPCaller is fantasai 
15:57:35 <glazou> Zakim, IPCaller is fantasai 
15:57:35 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
15:59:02 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:16 <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
15:59:16 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:59:51 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:00:29 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:00:59 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:14 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:01:14 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:02:19 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
16:02:19 <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
16:02:34 <Zakim> +??P20
16:02:47 <ChrisL> zakim, ??P20 is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
16:03:11 <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
16:03:53 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:03:53 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:04:25 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
16:04:30 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:04:46 <fantasai> melinda, I made a number of edits to css3-page, but I haven't checked in yet
16:05:10 <fantasai> melinda, don't have net access under linux from here, hopefully will get a chance next week
16:05:24 <melinda> fantasai, k, cool.
16:05:36 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:43 <fantasai> fantasai doesn't have email access this week
16:05:45 <melinda> fantasai, I may have a few locally that we'll need to merge in...
16:05:57 <fantasai> Topic: Agenda
16:06:01 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aabb
16:06:18 <fantasai> Topic: F2F Meeting in the Fall
16:06:30 <fantasai> glazou: deadline for 18th of March for TPAC was extended to April 2
16:06:31 <ChrisL> zakim, +47 is Howcome
16:06:32 <Zakim> +Howcome; got it
16:06:44 <fantasai> glazou: The number of groups  planning to meet is already above expectations
16:07:12 <fantasai> glazou: joint meeting with SVG Open?
16:07:24 <fantasai> chrisl: That was a fallback if the main meeting didn't go through
16:07:41 <fantasai> glazou: I guess we have to find another location for the f2f
16:08:23 <fantasai> glazou: We still have time to find another spot for the TPAC
16:08:29 <fantasai> alexmog: Why?
16:08:38 <fantasai> glazou: THere's not enough room at TPAC, too many groups
16:08:53 <fantasai> alexmog: I thought we were going to go with SVG Open because the groups we wanted to meet with weren't going to be at TPAC
16:09:26 <fantasai> chrisl: They downsized the venue
16:10:04 <fantasai> Topic: Agenda Items
16:10:11 <fantasai> glazou: I was too busy to read all the comments
16:10:25 <fantasai> glazou: Anybody have anything to add, please ask now
16:10:36 <fantasai> Bert: Is howcome's draft ready for publication or not?
16:10:45 <fantasai> Bert: GCPM or multicol?
16:10:57 <fantasai> howcome: They're not done yet, will be done next week
16:11:15 <fantasai> Bert: css3-namespaces?
16:11:22 <fantasai> fantasai: not done yet
16:11:28 <glazou> shepazu: can you be on the call ?
16:11:35 <glazou> for item 5 on agenda
16:11:54 <fantasai> glazou: anything else?
16:11:59 <fantasai> glazou: Sylvain?
16:12:03 <shepazu> sure
16:12:11 <fantasai> sylvain: We wanted to know if another CSS2.1 draft would be published soon
16:12:11 <glazou> thx
16:12:23 <fantasai> sylvain: Also wanted to know if anything about test suite will be on the agenda for June F2F
16:12:33 <fantasai> sylvain: So we know whether to budget in Arron
16:12:46 <fantasai> glazou: June F2F agenda is open for suggestions
16:12:57 <fantasai> glazou: please suggest something more detailed than just "Test Suite" 
16:13:14 <fantasai> glazou: Holiday season starts in June, so please plan your hotels earlyu
16:13:43 <fantasai> Topic: Follow-up on @import
16:13:59 <fantasai> glazou: Is this resolved? I saw Sylvain follow-up on this on the mailing list
16:14:14 <fantasai> sylvain: I believed we solved this in Tokyo
16:14:37 <fantasai> Topic: Implementation Status Reports
16:14:48 <fantasai> glazou: Mozilla and Antenna House posted detailed implementation reports to www-style
16:14:48 <ChrisL> these are for css 2.1, or for 3?
16:15:09 <melinda> Chris, both
16:15:12 <fantasai> glazou: I think David Baron has in mind some coordination among browsers 
16:15:21 <fantasai> glazou: wrt implementation of CSS features for the Web
16:15:33 <fantasai> glazou: I encourage other browser vendors to do the same
16:15:53 <fantasai> glazou: If Opera, Microsoft, Apple can send this information to www-style as well, that would be very cool
16:16:24 <fantasai> Topic: :not() and pseudo-elements
16:16:31 <fantasai> glazou: There's a clarification to make in the spec
16:16:39 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0193.html
16:16:47 <fantasai> glazou: Sylvain posted a clarification
16:16:54 <fantasai> glazou: I think David posted something else
16:16:55 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0195.html
16:17:30 <fantasai> glazou: fantasai also said that she expects a future version of Selectors to accept more in :not() than a simple selectors
16:17:37 <fantasai> glazou: Sylvain, which proposal do you prefer?
16:18:03 <Zakim> +Shepazu
16:18:12 <fantasai> glazou: I think David's proposal is more complete
16:18:21 <fantasai> sylvain: My proposal was just a clarification 
16:18:34 <fantasai> glazou: Is everyone ok with David's proposal?
16:18:39 <glazou> #The negation pseudo-class, :not(X), is a functional notation taking a simple selector (excluding the negation pseudo-
16:18:39 <glazou> #class itself) as an argument. It represents an element that is not represented by the argument.
16:18:39 <glazou> #Note: Appending a pseudo-element to a simple selector results in a selector; selectors are not valid negation pseudo
16:18:40 <glazou> #class arguments.
16:21:27 <fantasai> Peter: The note doesn't clarify that a pseudo-element by itself is not a simple selector
16:22:27 <fantasai> fantasai proposese addding a Note that says "SInce pseudo-elements are not simple selectors, they are not a valid argument to :not9)"
16:22:33 <fantasai> minus the typos :)
16:23:39 <fantasai> RESOLVED: sylvain+fantasai's proposal accepted
16:23:55 <fantasai> Topic: CSS+SVG Task Force
16:24:03 <fantasai> Shepazu to summarize
16:24:18 <fantasai> Doug: This basically started as something regarding transforms and animations
16:24:29 <fantasai> Doug: David Singer thought it would be a good idea for general coordination
16:24:43 <fantasai> Doug: It would also involve animations, transitions, other little issues that might pop up
16:24:57 <fantasai> Doug: I'm just suggesting we make a mailing list
16:25:14 <fantasai> Doug: So we don't have to keep cross-posting
16:25:34 <fantasai> glazou: Dean Jackson says he's ok with a mailing list, but not a sub-group
16:25:43 <fantasai> Doug: THere isn't really any formaility to a task force
16:25:52 <fantasai> chrisl: It's just somewhere that we can post to
16:26:06 <fantasai> Melinda: My question, this has started off as being specific to 2d-3d transforms
16:26:14 <fantasai> Melinda: but then became more general
16:26:26 <fantasai> Melinda: If it was just about transofrms, then I wouldn't want to subscribe
16:26:39 <fantasai> Melinda: If it's more general, maybe discussion of image-fit/image-scaling
16:26:47 <fantasai> Melinda: Then I need to subscribe
16:26:59 <fantasai> Melinda: Wheres' the efficiency benefit
16:27:18 <fantasai> ChrisL: It's avoiding cross-posting and diverging threads
16:27:50 <fantasai> glazou: My problem with the separate group
16:28:07 <fantasai> glazou: is that the wg memebers are supposed to keep track of everything that's going on, even if it's not of direct concern to them
16:28:27 <fantasai> Doug: My concern wrt transforms, especially
16:28:39 <fantasai> Doug: we are both working on different proposals that may end up being the same proposal
16:28:46 <fantasai> Doug: If people are sending feedback ...
16:28:56 <fantasai> Doug: The SVG WG has already gotten feedback about our trnasforms module
16:29:04 <fantasai> Doug: It's got sent to the public SVG mailing list
16:29:18 <fantasai> Doug: At what point are we going to be able to .. I'm concerned that emails going to get sent to both lists
16:29:22 <fantasai> Doug: separately
16:29:37 <fantasai> Doug: And we're not going to coordinate
16:29:51 <fantasai> Doug: For SVG group, we just can't track everything that flows throught he www-style list
16:30:37 <fantasai> ChrisL: It's much more efficient for someone from the csswg to subscribe to just the joint task force list, and not to all the svg lists
16:31:01 <fantasai> Doug: For those of us that are subscribed to both lists, it's a big savings for the SVG group so we dont' ahve to track everything
16:31:29 <fantasai> Doug: I'm sure you can have the joint mailing list shoved in a filter so it comes to your attention with CSS
16:31:42 <fantasai> Doug: Also, if you're not interested in transforms you don't have to mointor the list for the next few months
16:32:07 <fantasai> Melinda seems to be ok with this
16:32:20 <fantasai> glazou: Open mailing list, or just publicly-viewable
16:32:25 <fantasai> agreement on open
16:32:31 <fantasai> public read-write
16:33:14 <fantasai> discussion of what David thinks
16:33:25 <fantasai> Doug: For specifications like transforms and animations and things like that
16:33:34 <fantasai> Doug: That might be the default mailing list for sending comments
16:33:49 <fantasai> Doug: I can understand why csswg might not want that, but just a suggestion. SVG group is ok with that
16:34:07 <fantasai> Melinda: I think if the CSSWG agrees to establish that new mailing list, I don't see why we wouldn't want to direct comments there
16:34:17 <fantasai> Doug: We could have a wiki if we wanted, I dont' think it's necessary
16:35:20 <fantasai> discussion of names for the list
16:35:29 <sylvaing> svg-css-mafia
16:35:35 <fantasai> www-svg-css-coord
16:35:41 <fantasai> public-fx
16:36:40 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Make a joint CSS SVG task force, Doug to set it up, specs of common interest to send comments there, will be *public read-write*
16:39:11 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:39:18 <fantasai> Topic: Publishing Template Layout module
16:39:24 <fantasai> Bert: I think it's time for an update
16:39:31 <fantasai> Bert: I think I sent also the changes
16:39:40 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:39:55 <fantasai> Bert: I removed the part about tabbed layout. interesting, but not so urgent... people aren't talking about it at least
16:40:00 <fantasai> Bert: Also updated the title
16:40:08 <fantasai> Bert: That's why I want to publish it
16:40:55 <fantasai> fantasai: I thought it was called Template Layout MOdule?
16:41:11 <fantasai> RESOLVED: publish updated WD of css3-layout
16:41:25 <fantasai> Topic: Wording for Issue 24
16:41:27 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
16:42:30 <mollydotcom> mollydotcom has joined #css
16:42:36 <fantasai> It was accepted to fix the problem, but not exactly what wording iirc
16:43:42 <glazou> hi mollydotcom 
16:43:53 <mollydotcom> am I an hour off again? 
16:44:47 <fantasai> yeah
16:44:50 <glazou> yes :)
16:45:01 <fantasai> fantasai: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0091.html
16:45:10 <fantasai> fantasai: There were two woriding proposals there
16:45:11 <glazou> mollydotcom: leave the norwegian TZ :)
16:45:26 <fantasai> fantasai: We discussed them and Bert wanted to write another one that was clearer on how the two interact
16:45:58 <mollydotcom> it's the Arizona Time Zone
16:45:59 <CesarAcebal> I'm afraid I have had the same error with the hour than Molly. In Spain we are not still in Summer Time until this weekend. Sorry!
16:46:18 <glazou> np CesarAcebal 
16:46:46 <fantasai> fantasai: to answer Sylvain's question, we need to solve this issue before publishing CSS2.1 again, because we regressed the text with the last resolution
16:47:16 <Zakim> +Cesar_Acebal
16:47:27 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
16:49:44 <fantasai> Bert summarizes his email
16:51:17 <glazou> fantasai, I can't hear you
16:51:31 <fantasai> fantasai: It shouldn't be limited to selectors
16:51:40 <fantasai> fantasai: We want all statements to fall under the matching brackets rule
16:51:47 <fantasai> fantasai: including @statmeents
16:52:16 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think the reuqirement to "match" brackets and quotes is hard to understand, it's good enough for now I think
16:52:25 <fantasai> fantasai: but it needs to apply to statements and to declarations
16:52:39 <fantasai> ACTION: everyone come up with an opinion on Bert's email
16:52:39 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone
16:53:16 <fantasai> Topic: Others
16:53:18 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html
16:53:24 <fantasai> glazou, dbaron had good comments on those
16:53:33 <fantasai> see above
16:54:08 <fantasai> linked above
16:54:20 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.htmlhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.htmlhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html
16:54:25 <fantasai> er
16:55:02 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html
16:55:15 <glazou> Zakim, code ?
16:55:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
16:55:19 <glazou> mollydotcom: see above
16:56:46 <ChrisL> it seems to be the usual way to remove things, set the attribute to ""
16:56:51 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0256.html
16:57:53 <fantasai> dbaron's comment: I think this could be tossed out as a "not all requirements are
16:57:54 <fantasai> expressed in the formal grammar".  It's a nice-to-have (and perhaps
16:57:54 <fantasai> somewhat complicated to get right, so maybe not worth it), but I
16:57:54 <fantasai> don't think it's a bug in the spec.
16:58:31 <fantasai> glazou: another issue where the grammar is completed by the prose
16:58:53 <fantasai> glazou: we will always have these sort of things
16:59:08 <fantasai> glazou: not worth the time and complexity grammar to fix
16:59:13 <fantasai> peter: why not fix in css3
16:59:20 <fantasai> glazou: ok, we leave for css3.. but not 2.1
16:59:28 <fantasai> bert: which are you talking about now?
16:59:37 <fantasai> glazou: points bert at url
17:00:54 <fantasai> Bert: So far I havent' seen anything that I would like to change in the grammar
17:01:03 <fantasai> glazou: So Yves posted at least 2 issues here
17:01:12 <fantasai> glazou: Specifically about 2.1, do we want to change something?
17:01:57 <fantasai> RESOLVED: keep grammar and prose as is for 2.1, defer issue to css3
17:02:17 <glazou> ==> tracker
17:02:32 <ChrisL> adjourned
17:02:32 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:02:40 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:02:41 <Zakim> -Cesar_Acebal
17:02:43 <Zakim> -Howcome
17:02:47 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
17:02:50 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:02:53 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
17:02:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been glazou, fantasai, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, Bert, sylvaing, alexmog, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, arronei, +47.21.65.aabb, Howcome, Shepazu,
17:03:02 <Zakim> ... Cesar_Acebal
17:03:07 <Zakim> -plinss
17:03:08 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:14 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
17:03:17 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:19 <fantasai> chrisl, could you also make sure last week's minutes made it to the mailing list?
17:03:29 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:46 <fantasai> k, thanks :)
17:03:52 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:52 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:53 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, fantasai, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, Bert, sylvaing, alexmog, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, arronei, +47.21.65.aabb, Howcome, Shepazu, Cesar_Acebal
17:04:06 <plinss> ChrisL: +1.858 was me, don't know why Zakim listed me twice...
17:04:25 <mollydotcom> Bert?
17:04:29 <plinss> same for Howcome, he was +47.21
17:04:35 <Bert> Hi Molly
17:04:51 <mollydotcom> Hi! I just wanted to touch base with you regarding any web site needs
17:05:04 <mollydotcom> I sent an email, but I know you're busy - but I'm available to help
17:05:48 <Bert> Yes, I'm going to answer. I put something on line for you to look at.
17:06:14 <mollydotcom> oh good, if you could just email me now at mollyh@opera.com for that, I'll be happy to take a look!
17:06:30 <ChrisL> Meeting: CSS WG telcon
17:06:40 <ChrisL> Chair: Daniel
17:06:50 <mollydotcom> I'm trying to streamline all CSS WG related items into that address now
17:07:14 <glazou> it should be møllyh@opera.com
17:07:20 <mollydotcom> Hahaha
17:07:22 <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0204.html
17:07:38 <mollydotcom> I really wanted molly@opera.com but they couldn't do it
17:07:48 <mollydotcom> my alternative was mholzschlag@opera.com
17:07:57 <mollydotcom> so I figured mollyh was the best middle ground :)
17:08:54 <ChrisL> Regrets: Steve Zilles, David Baron, Tona Henderson, Emily Walters, David Singer
17:08:59 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL
17:10:45 <glazou> bye people
17:11:41 <mollydotcom> also has to work on slides
17:11:51 <mollydotcom> byeeee! I'll look for that email, Bert!
17:15:56 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
17:17:21 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
17:56:48 <arronei> arronei has joined #CSS
19:04:35 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
19:20:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
20:06:03 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS