IRC log of css on 2009-03-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:49:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:49:13 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:49:13 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:50:51 [fantasai]
15:50:58 [fantasai]
Skype works over this connection
15:51:01 [fantasai]
I am so impressed
15:52:47 [glazou]
fantasai: : so you'll be on the call?
15:52:54 [fantasai]
I think so
15:53:31 [fantasai]
unless the connection to w3c is significantly worse than to skype test call
15:53:56 [glazou]
15:54:41 [glazou]
Zakim, code ?
15:54:41 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:55:09 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:16 [Zakim]
15:57:05 [Zakim]
15:57:27 [glazou]
Zakim: IPCaller is fantasai
15:57:35 [glazou]
Zakim, IPCaller is fantasai
15:57:35 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
15:59:02 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:16 [plinss]
zakim, +1.858.216 is me
15:59:16 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:59:51 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
16:00:29 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
16:00:59 [Zakim]
16:01:01 [Zakim]
16:01:14 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:01:14 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:02:19 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
16:02:19 [Zakim]
+alexmog; got it
16:02:34 [Zakim]
16:02:47 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??P20 is me
16:02:47 [Zakim]
+ChrisL; got it
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:53 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:03:53 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:04:25 [melinda]
melinda has joined #CSS
16:04:30 [alexmog]
alexmog has joined #css
16:04:46 [fantasai]
melinda, I made a number of edits to css3-page, but I haven't checked in yet
16:05:10 [fantasai]
melinda, don't have net access under linux from here, hopefully will get a chance next week
16:05:24 [melinda]
fantasai, k, cool.
16:05:36 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:43 [fantasai]
fantasai doesn't have email access this week
16:05:45 [melinda]
fantasai, I may have a few locally that we'll need to merge in...
16:05:57 [fantasai]
Topic: Agenda
16:06:01 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aabb
16:06:18 [fantasai]
Topic: F2F Meeting in the Fall
16:06:30 [fantasai]
glazou: deadline for 18th of March for TPAC was extended to April 2
16:06:31 [ChrisL]
zakim, +47 is Howcome
16:06:32 [Zakim]
+Howcome; got it
16:06:44 [fantasai]
glazou: The number of groups planning to meet is already above expectations
16:07:12 [fantasai]
glazou: joint meeting with SVG Open?
16:07:24 [fantasai]
chrisl: That was a fallback if the main meeting didn't go through
16:07:41 [fantasai]
glazou: I guess we have to find another location for the f2f
16:08:23 [fantasai]
glazou: We still have time to find another spot for the TPAC
16:08:29 [fantasai]
alexmog: Why?
16:08:38 [fantasai]
glazou: THere's not enough room at TPAC, too many groups
16:08:53 [fantasai]
alexmog: I thought we were going to go with SVG Open because the groups we wanted to meet with weren't going to be at TPAC
16:09:26 [fantasai]
chrisl: They downsized the venue
16:10:04 [fantasai]
Topic: Agenda Items
16:10:11 [fantasai]
glazou: I was too busy to read all the comments
16:10:25 [fantasai]
glazou: Anybody have anything to add, please ask now
16:10:36 [fantasai]
Bert: Is howcome's draft ready for publication or not?
16:10:45 [fantasai]
Bert: GCPM or multicol?
16:10:57 [fantasai]
howcome: They're not done yet, will be done next week
16:11:15 [fantasai]
Bert: css3-namespaces?
16:11:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: not done yet
16:11:28 [glazou]
shepazu: can you be on the call ?
16:11:35 [glazou]
for item 5 on agenda
16:11:54 [fantasai]
glazou: anything else?
16:11:59 [fantasai]
glazou: Sylvain?
16:12:03 [shepazu]
16:12:11 [fantasai]
sylvain: We wanted to know if another CSS2.1 draft would be published soon
16:12:11 [glazou]
16:12:23 [fantasai]
sylvain: Also wanted to know if anything about test suite will be on the agenda for June F2F
16:12:33 [fantasai]
sylvain: So we know whether to budget in Arron
16:12:46 [fantasai]
glazou: June F2F agenda is open for suggestions
16:12:57 [fantasai]
glazou: please suggest something more detailed than just "Test Suite"
16:13:14 [fantasai]
glazou: Holiday season starts in June, so please plan your hotels earlyu
16:13:43 [fantasai]
Topic: Follow-up on @import
16:13:59 [fantasai]
glazou: Is this resolved? I saw Sylvain follow-up on this on the mailing list
16:14:14 [fantasai]
sylvain: I believed we solved this in Tokyo
16:14:37 [fantasai]
Topic: Implementation Status Reports
16:14:48 [fantasai]
glazou: Mozilla and Antenna House posted detailed implementation reports to www-style
16:14:48 [ChrisL]
these are for css 2.1, or for 3?
16:15:09 [melinda]
Chris, both
16:15:12 [fantasai]
glazou: I think David Baron has in mind some coordination among browsers
16:15:21 [fantasai]
glazou: wrt implementation of CSS features for the Web
16:15:33 [fantasai]
glazou: I encourage other browser vendors to do the same
16:15:53 [fantasai]
glazou: If Opera, Microsoft, Apple can send this information to www-style as well, that would be very cool
16:16:24 [fantasai]
Topic: :not() and pseudo-elements
16:16:31 [fantasai]
glazou: There's a clarification to make in the spec
16:16:39 [fantasai]
16:16:47 [fantasai]
glazou: Sylvain posted a clarification
16:16:54 [fantasai]
glazou: I think David posted something else
16:16:55 [glazou]
16:17:30 [fantasai]
glazou: fantasai also said that she expects a future version of Selectors to accept more in :not() than a simple selectors
16:17:37 [fantasai]
glazou: Sylvain, which proposal do you prefer?
16:18:03 [Zakim]
16:18:12 [fantasai]
glazou: I think David's proposal is more complete
16:18:21 [fantasai]
sylvain: My proposal was just a clarification
16:18:34 [fantasai]
glazou: Is everyone ok with David's proposal?
16:18:39 [glazou]
#The negation pseudo-class, :not(X), is a functional notation taking a simple selector (excluding the negation pseudo-
16:18:39 [glazou]
#class itself) as an argument. It represents an element that is not represented by the argument.
16:18:39 [glazou]
#Note: Appending a pseudo-element to a simple selector results in a selector; selectors are not valid negation pseudo
16:18:40 [glazou]
#class arguments.
16:21:27 [fantasai]
Peter: The note doesn't clarify that a pseudo-element by itself is not a simple selector
16:22:27 [fantasai]
fantasai proposese addding a Note that says "SInce pseudo-elements are not simple selectors, they are not a valid argument to :not9)"
16:22:33 [fantasai]
minus the typos :)
16:23:39 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: sylvain+fantasai's proposal accepted
16:23:55 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS+SVG Task Force
16:24:03 [fantasai]
Shepazu to summarize
16:24:18 [fantasai]
Doug: This basically started as something regarding transforms and animations
16:24:29 [fantasai]
Doug: David Singer thought it would be a good idea for general coordination
16:24:43 [fantasai]
Doug: It would also involve animations, transitions, other little issues that might pop up
16:24:57 [fantasai]
Doug: I'm just suggesting we make a mailing list
16:25:14 [fantasai]
Doug: So we don't have to keep cross-posting
16:25:34 [fantasai]
glazou: Dean Jackson says he's ok with a mailing list, but not a sub-group
16:25:43 [fantasai]
Doug: THere isn't really any formaility to a task force
16:25:52 [fantasai]
chrisl: It's just somewhere that we can post to
16:26:06 [fantasai]
Melinda: My question, this has started off as being specific to 2d-3d transforms
16:26:14 [fantasai]
Melinda: but then became more general
16:26:26 [fantasai]
Melinda: If it was just about transofrms, then I wouldn't want to subscribe
16:26:39 [fantasai]
Melinda: If it's more general, maybe discussion of image-fit/image-scaling
16:26:47 [fantasai]
Melinda: Then I need to subscribe
16:26:59 [fantasai]
Melinda: Wheres' the efficiency benefit
16:27:18 [fantasai]
ChrisL: It's avoiding cross-posting and diverging threads
16:27:50 [fantasai]
glazou: My problem with the separate group
16:28:07 [fantasai]
glazou: is that the wg memebers are supposed to keep track of everything that's going on, even if it's not of direct concern to them
16:28:27 [fantasai]
Doug: My concern wrt transforms, especially
16:28:39 [fantasai]
Doug: we are both working on different proposals that may end up being the same proposal
16:28:46 [fantasai]
Doug: If people are sending feedback ...
16:28:56 [fantasai]
Doug: The SVG WG has already gotten feedback about our trnasforms module
16:29:04 [fantasai]
Doug: It's got sent to the public SVG mailing list
16:29:18 [fantasai]
Doug: At what point are we going to be able to .. I'm concerned that emails going to get sent to both lists
16:29:22 [fantasai]
Doug: separately
16:29:37 [fantasai]
Doug: And we're not going to coordinate
16:29:51 [fantasai]
Doug: For SVG group, we just can't track everything that flows throught he www-style list
16:30:37 [fantasai]
ChrisL: It's much more efficient for someone from the csswg to subscribe to just the joint task force list, and not to all the svg lists
16:31:01 [fantasai]
Doug: For those of us that are subscribed to both lists, it's a big savings for the SVG group so we dont' ahve to track everything
16:31:29 [fantasai]
Doug: I'm sure you can have the joint mailing list shoved in a filter so it comes to your attention with CSS
16:31:42 [fantasai]
Doug: Also, if you're not interested in transforms you don't have to mointor the list for the next few months
16:32:07 [fantasai]
Melinda seems to be ok with this
16:32:20 [fantasai]
glazou: Open mailing list, or just publicly-viewable
16:32:25 [fantasai]
agreement on open
16:32:31 [fantasai]
public read-write
16:33:14 [fantasai]
discussion of what David thinks
16:33:25 [fantasai]
Doug: For specifications like transforms and animations and things like that
16:33:34 [fantasai]
Doug: That might be the default mailing list for sending comments
16:33:49 [fantasai]
Doug: I can understand why csswg might not want that, but just a suggestion. SVG group is ok with that
16:34:07 [fantasai]
Melinda: I think if the CSSWG agrees to establish that new mailing list, I don't see why we wouldn't want to direct comments there
16:34:17 [fantasai]
Doug: We could have a wiki if we wanted, I dont' think it's necessary
16:35:20 [fantasai]
discussion of names for the list
16:35:29 [sylvaing]
16:35:35 [fantasai]
16:35:41 [fantasai]
16:36:40 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Make a joint CSS SVG task force, Doug to set it up, specs of common interest to send comments there, will be *public read-write*
16:39:11 [Zakim]
16:39:18 [fantasai]
Topic: Publishing Template Layout module
16:39:24 [fantasai]
Bert: I think it's time for an update
16:39:31 [fantasai]
Bert: I think I sent also the changes
16:39:40 [CesarAcebal]
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16:39:55 [fantasai]
Bert: I removed the part about tabbed layout. interesting, but not so urgent... people aren't talking about it at least
16:40:00 [fantasai]
Bert: Also updated the title
16:40:08 [fantasai]
Bert: That's why I want to publish it
16:40:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: I thought it was called Template Layout MOdule?
16:41:11 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: publish updated WD of css3-layout
16:41:25 [fantasai]
Topic: Wording for Issue 24
16:41:27 [glazou]
16:42:30 [mollydotcom]
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16:42:36 [fantasai]
It was accepted to fix the problem, but not exactly what wording iirc
16:43:42 [glazou]
hi mollydotcom
16:43:53 [mollydotcom]
am I an hour off again?
16:44:47 [fantasai]
16:44:50 [glazou]
yes :)
16:45:01 [fantasai]
16:45:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: There were two woriding proposals there
16:45:11 [glazou]
mollydotcom: leave the norwegian TZ :)
16:45:26 [fantasai]
fantasai: We discussed them and Bert wanted to write another one that was clearer on how the two interact
16:45:48 [fantasai]
glazou: deferred to next week
16:45:58 [mollydotcom]
it's the Arizona Time Zone
16:45:59 [CesarAcebal]
I'm afraid I have had the same error with the hour than Molly. In Spain we are not still in Summer Time until this weekend. Sorry!
16:46:18 [glazou]
np CesarAcebal
16:46:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: to answer Sylvain's question, we need to solve this issue before publishing CSS2.1 again, because we regressed the text with the last resolution
16:47:16 [Zakim]
16:47:27 [glazou]
16:49:44 [fantasai]
Bert summarizes his email
16:51:17 [glazou]
fantasai, I can't hear you
16:51:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: It shouldn't be limited to selectors
16:51:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: We want all statements to fall under the matching brackets rule
16:51:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: including @statmeents
16:52:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think the reuqirement to "match" brackets and quotes is hard to understand, it's good enough for now I think
16:52:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: but it needs to apply to statements and to declarations
16:52:39 [fantasai]
ACTION: everyone come up with an opinion on Bert's email
16:52:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone
16:53:16 [fantasai]
Topic: Others
16:53:18 [fantasai]
16:53:24 [fantasai]
glazou, dbaron had good comments on those
16:53:33 [fantasai]
see above
16:54:08 [fantasai]
linked above
16:54:20 [fantasai]
16:54:25 [fantasai]
16:55:02 [fantasai]
16:55:15 [glazou]
Zakim, code ?
16:55:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
16:55:19 [glazou]
mollydotcom: see above
16:56:46 [ChrisL]
it seems to be the usual way to remove things, set the attribute to ""
16:56:51 [glazou]
16:57:53 [fantasai]
dbaron's comment: I think this could be tossed out as a "not all requirements are
16:57:54 [fantasai]
expressed in the formal grammar". It's a nice-to-have (and perhaps
16:57:54 [fantasai]
somewhat complicated to get right, so maybe not worth it), but I
16:57:54 [fantasai]
don't think it's a bug in the spec.
16:58:31 [fantasai]
glazou: another issue where the grammar is completed by the prose
16:58:53 [fantasai]
glazou: we will always have these sort of things
16:59:08 [fantasai]
glazou: not worth the time and complexity grammar to fix
16:59:13 [fantasai]
peter: why not fix in css3
16:59:20 [fantasai]
glazou: ok, we leave for css3.. but not 2.1
16:59:28 [fantasai]
bert: which are you talking about now?
16:59:37 [fantasai]
glazou: points bert at url
17:00:54 [fantasai]
Bert: So far I havent' seen anything that I would like to change in the grammar
17:01:03 [fantasai]
glazou: So Yves posted at least 2 issues here
17:01:12 [fantasai]
glazou: Specifically about 2.1, do we want to change something?
17:01:57 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: keep grammar and prose as is for 2.1, defer issue to css3
17:02:17 [glazou]
==> tracker
17:02:32 [ChrisL]
17:02:32 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:02:40 [Zakim]
17:02:41 [Zakim]
17:02:43 [Zakim]
17:02:47 [Zakim]
17:02:50 [Zakim]
17:02:53 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
17:02:58 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been glazou, fantasai, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, Bert, sylvaing, alexmog, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, arronei, +47.21.65.aabb, Howcome, Shepazu,
17:03:02 [Zakim]
... Cesar_Acebal
17:03:07 [Zakim]
17:03:08 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:14 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
17:03:17 [Zakim]
17:03:19 [fantasai]
chrisl, could you also make sure last week's minutes made it to the mailing list?
17:03:29 [Zakim]
17:03:46 [fantasai]
k, thanks :)
17:03:52 [Zakim]
17:03:52 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, fantasai, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, Bert, sylvaing, alexmog, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, arronei, +47.21.65.aabb, Howcome, Shepazu, Cesar_Acebal
17:04:06 [plinss]
ChrisL: +1.858 was me, don't know why Zakim listed me twice...
17:04:25 [mollydotcom]
17:04:29 [plinss]
same for Howcome, he was +47.21
17:04:35 [Bert]
Hi Molly
17:04:51 [mollydotcom]
Hi! I just wanted to touch base with you regarding any web site needs
17:05:04 [mollydotcom]
I sent an email, but I know you're busy - but I'm available to help
17:05:48 [Bert]
Yes, I'm going to answer. I put something on line for you to look at.
17:06:14 [mollydotcom]
oh good, if you could just email me now at for that, I'll be happy to take a look!
17:06:30 [ChrisL]
Meeting: CSS WG telcon
17:06:40 [ChrisL]
Chair: Daniel
17:06:50 [mollydotcom]
I'm trying to streamline all CSS WG related items into that address now
17:07:14 [glazou]
it should be mø
17:07:20 [mollydotcom]
17:07:22 [ChrisL]
17:07:38 [mollydotcom]
I really wanted but they couldn't do it
17:07:48 [mollydotcom]
my alternative was
17:07:57 [mollydotcom]
so I figured mollyh was the best middle ground :)
17:08:54 [ChrisL]
Regrets: Steve Zilles, David Baron, Tona Henderson, Emily Walters, David Singer
17:08:59 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
17:10:45 [glazou]
bye people
17:11:41 [mollydotcom]
also has to work on slides
17:11:51 [mollydotcom]
byeeee! I'll look for that email, Bert!
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