IRC log of rif on 2009-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-irc
14:54:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:54:05 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:06 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
14:54:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:54:08 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:54:23 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 March 2009
14:54:29 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:54:32 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:54:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:54:54 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0103.html
14:55:24 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 March RIF Telecon, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0103.html
14:56:00 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:56:05 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:56:17 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:56:29 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F13
14:56:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
14:57:00 [ChrisW]
agenda+ New XML Schema
14:57:15 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Issue-92
14:57:19 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Issue-80
14:57:25 [ChrisW]
agenda+ rdf:text
14:57:31 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Lists
14:57:43 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core-ifying SWC
14:57:49 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:58:04 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
14:59:02 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:59:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
14:59:23 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
14:59:24 [Zakim]
1. Admin [from ChrisW]
14:59:24 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
14:59:25 [Zakim]
3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]
14:59:25 [Zakim]
4. Action Review [from ChrisW]
14:59:26 [Zakim]
5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]
14:59:28 [Zakim]
6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]
14:59:31 [Zakim]
7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]
14:59:34 [Zakim]
8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]
14:59:35 [Zakim]
9. Lists [from ChrisW]
14:59:38 [Zakim]
10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]
14:59:40 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
14:59:44 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:51 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
14:59:52 [PaulVincent]
PaulVincent has joined #rif
14:59:56 [ChrisW]
Harold, I've put the new schema on the agenda
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:00:33 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:00:42 [Harold]
zakim, NRCC is me.
15:00:42 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:00:50 [Harold]
Chris, thanks.
15:01:15 [Zakim]
+Paul_Vincent
15:01:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, Paul_Vincent contains csma
15:01:48 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:01:51 [Zakim]
+ +43.12.aaaa
15:02:04 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:02:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:27 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+Jules
15:02:39 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:50 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:02:50 [Zakim]
sorry, csma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:03:09 [PaulVincent]
zakim, muteme
15:03:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'muteme', PaulVincent
15:03:16 [PaulVincent]
zakim, mute me
15:03:16 [Zakim]
Paul_Vincent should now be muted
15:03:30 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:03:39 [PaulVincent]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:39 [Zakim]
Paul_Vincent should no longer be muted
15:04:03 [ChrisW]
Scribe: PaulVincent
15:04:08 [ChrisW]
scribenick: PaulVincent
15:04:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 1
15:04:15 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:04:25 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/att-0035/03-rif-minutes.html
15:04:32 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve last week's minutes
15:04:46 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve last week's minutes
15:04:52 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:04:59 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
15:05:05 [Zakim]
1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:05:07 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:05:09 [Zakim]
3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]
15:05:10 [Zakim]
4. Action Review [from ChrisW]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]
15:05:15 [Zakim]
6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]
15:05:17 [Zakim]
7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]
15:05:19 [Zakim]
8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]
15:05:20 [Zakim]
9. Lists [from ChrisW]
15:05:23 [Zakim]
10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]
15:05:26 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:05:29 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:05:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:13 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:06:54 [PaulVincent]
OWL WG has resolved to RIF request
15:07:26 [Zakim]
+??P27
15:08:22 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:Features
15:08:27 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
15:08:53 [PaulVincent]
Axel: SPARQL discussions on proposed features in progress
15:09:13 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:09:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 3
15:09:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F13" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:03 [PaulVincent]
Chris: get reservations in ASAP
15:10:16 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 4
15:10:16 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:11:12 [josb]
disjunction and equality
15:11:57 [csma]
continued
15:11:58 [PaulVincent]
all actions continued except...
15:12:25 [csma]
continued
15:12:45 [gary]
gary has joined #rif
15:13:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:13:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:59 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:14:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:14:10 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:14:11 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:14:11 [Zakim]
3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]
15:14:12 [Zakim]
5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]
15:14:12 [Zakim]
6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]
15:14:13 [Zakim]
7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]
15:14:13 [Zakim]
8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]
15:14:15 [Zakim]
9. Lists [from ChrisW]
15:14:19 [Zakim]
10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]
15:14:19 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 5
15:14:20 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:14:23 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "New XML Schema" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:54 [PaulVincent]
Harold: finished schema but changkai not present - return to later in meeting
15:15:02 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 6
15:15:03 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Issue-92" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:15:49 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED:* To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].
15:16:01 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].
15:16:21 [Michael_Kifer]
Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
15:16:34 [sandro]
+1
15:16:38 [AxelPolleres]
+1
15:16:45 [DaveReynolds]
+1
15:17:03 [josb]
0
15:17:08 [ChrisW]
+1
15:17:10 [mdean]
+1
15:17:15 [PaulVincent]
0
15:17:24 [gary]
0
15:17:38 [Harold]
0
15:17:40 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer
15:18:22 [Michael_Kifer]
+1
15:18:42 [csma]
0
15:18:53 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].
15:19:01 [ChrisW]
action: chris to close issue 92
15:19:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-716 - Close issue 92 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-03-31].
15:19:07 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, pointer
15:19:07 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-irc#T15-19-07
15:19:37 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
15:19:37 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Issue-80" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:20:53 [DaveReynolds]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0076.html
15:20:59 [PaulVincent]
CSMA: options are from Dave's email - see agenda
15:21:47 [PaulVincent]
- From the minutes of last week [1], the only proposed resolution with only positive opinions according to the polls is the following (but Dave and Jos were not present and did not state an opinion about that option in there emails) * Option (1) would be opposed (-1) by Adrian, and option (0) by sandro; * option (2), preferred by Dave, has mildly negation opinions (0.5) from Gary and Jos, and slightly negative opinion (0.1) from Michael; * option (3), pr
15:23:32 [PaulVincent]
Proposal was: Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL
15:23:39 [josb]
I would object to 2
15:23:53 [josb]
see also the Mar 3rd minutes
15:23:56 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED:* Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL). Closing ISSUE-80 [6].
15:24:02 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL). Closing ISSUE-80 [6].
15:24:39 [AxelPolleres]
you don't mean new predicates do you?
15:25:33 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:25:34 [PaulVincent]
Christian: this is a combination of options 1 and 3
15:25:39 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:26:05 [josb]
unless someone makes a compelling case, I will object
15:26:19 [PaulVincent]
Chris: to summarize.... no I cant
15:27:00 [PaulVincent]
Dave: addition is xpath-style-no-equals
15:28:25 [PaulVincent]
Christian: proposed only from the polls last week as the least opposed solution
15:29:06 [PaulVincent]
Axel: 2 new predicates - would they be extensible or not? Christian: they would keep extensibility
15:29:58 [josb]
NO
15:30:06 [josb]
I was not there last week
15:30:13 [AxelPolleres]
wasn't there either
15:30:42 [gary]
1 is xpath-equal to 1.0 but not literal-equal
15:31:40 [csma]
option "(2)" pred:literal-equal "as is" --- literal-equal(x,y) iff literal(x) and literal(y) and x=y
15:33:04 [josb]
2009-01-01T01:00 GMT neq 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1
15:33:19 [josb]
2009-01-01T01:00 GMT not-identical 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1
15:33:27 [josb]
2009-01-01T01:00 GMT datetime-equal 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1
15:34:07 [AxelPolleres]
but they are '=', aren't they?
15:34:33 [sandro]
I think have literal-not-equals is important, not literal-not-identical.
15:35:42 [AxelPolleres]
literal-equal is currently "=" plus a value space check
15:36:15 [AxelPolleres]
so: literal-equal ( 2009-01-01T01:00 GMT 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1 ) holds
15:36:33 [AxelPolleres]
I don't know what not-identical is.
15:36:52 [ChrisW]
identical is rif:=
15:36:53 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:37:08 [ChrisW]
equality is datatype-equality e.g. with numerics and dates
15:38:39 [ChrisW]
ack AxelPolleres
15:38:41 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:literal-equal
15:44:31 [sandro]
Sandro: I *think* for owl RL we need non-identity in the value space of literals, not numeric-not-equal.
15:44:50 [josb]
q+
15:45:26 [ChrisW]
q?
15:45:27 [sandro]
chris: Dave's ruleset needs literal-non-identity
15:45:28 [ChrisW]
ack josb
15:46:47 [sandro]
literal-identical, literal-non-identical, literal-equal, literal-not-equal
15:47:07 [AxelPolleres]
literal-identical is redundant
15:47:24 [AxelPolleres]
literal-equal had promotion?
15:47:33 [josb]
yes
15:47:41 [PaulVincent]
Literal-identical is literal-identical or literal-qual with existing RIF?
15:48:53 [AxelPolleres]
literal-not-equal means unequal incl. promotion
15:49:24 [AxelPolleres]
literal-not-identical is what is now literal-not-equal in the spec
15:49:46 [sandro]
gary wants literal-equals
15:49:50 [ChrisW]
literal-not-identical: use case for OWL-RL ruleset
15:50:21 [ChrisW]
literal-identical: symmetric with above
15:50:22 [sandro]
axel: What's in the current draft as literal-equal and literal-non-equal is what we're currently talking about as literal-identical and literal-not-identical.
15:50:57 [AxelPolleres]
BUT: literal-not-equal (incl. promotion) would back up XPAths !=
15:51:04 [sandro]
chris: need to verify that OWL is using identity, not xpath-style-equality.
15:51:50 [DaveReynolds]
Jos - are you sure it is doing so for xsd:dateTimeStamp?
15:51:54 [PaulVincent]
Jos: OWL is using identity as we use in RIF
15:52:33 [sandro]
PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. true for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. false if different data type. false if either is not a literal. false if same type and different point in value space
15:52:45 [josb]
yes, it always uses identity
15:53:03 [AxelPolleres]
literal-not-identical would be jsut obtained by renaming the current http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:literal-not-equal
15:53:53 [josb]
q+
15:54:16 [sandro]
PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. false for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. true if different data type. false if either is not a literal. true if same type and different point in value space
15:54:22 [AxelPolleres]
the proposal amounts to "PROPOSED: rename pred:literal-not-equal to pred:literal-not-identical", correct?
15:54:57 [sandro]
PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. false for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. true if different data type. false if either is not a literal. true if same type and different point in value space. (THAT is, rename pred:literal-not-equal to pred:literal-not-identical.)
15:56:05 [ChrisW]
action: jos to check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset
15:56:05 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
15:56:05 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
15:56:17 [ChrisW]
action: josb to check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset
15:56:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-717 - Check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-03-31].
15:57:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:57:33 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:57:34 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:57:34 [Zakim]
3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]
15:57:35 [Zakim]
5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]
15:57:35 [Zakim]
6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]
15:57:36 [Zakim]
7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]
15:57:36 [Zakim]
8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]
15:57:38 [Zakim]
9. Lists [from ChrisW]
15:57:40 [Zakim]
10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]
15:57:41 [Zakim]
11. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:58:13 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
15:58:18 [AxelPolleres]
I don't see anything changed from the current status, except a renaming proposal from -equal to -identical
15:58:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 8
15:58:18 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "rdf:text" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:58:52 [josb]
URI?
15:58:54 [PaulVincent]
- The OWL WG would like to move rdf:text to LC [10]. What shall we do about ISSUE-86 [8] (rdf:text implies changes to SPARQL) and ISSUE-87 [9] (rdf:text re-interprets xs:string as a subtype of rdf:text)?
15:59:16 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
15:59:36 [josb]
q+
16:00:47 [josb]
q-
16:01:24 [AxelPolleres]
I didn't have a handle on it recently, sorry.
16:04:26 [AxelPolleres]
I can take an action to get up-to-date on the issues and status by one but nexty teleconf. (will be on a review meeting next week)
16:05:08 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: lots of editorial notes still in this spec
16:05:25 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: call for reviewers
16:06:26 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif
16:06:37 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:07:05 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:05 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AxelPolleres
16:07:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:10 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose josb
16:07:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:13 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jules
16:07:18 [PaulVincent]
Chris: needs to be discussed prior to closing - reviewer will be Jos
16:07:33 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to review rdf:text for RIF
16:07:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-718 - Review rdf:text for RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-03-31].
16:08:56 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-Core
16:09:10 [Harold]
http://www.jdrew.org/rif/core/wd2/absquared.rif
16:09:24 [PaulVincent]
Chair: are we on Agendum 5?
16:09:25 [Harold]
http://www.jdrew.org/rif/core/wd2/ex7CounterExample.rif
16:10:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 9
16:10:20 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "Lists" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:11:01 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists
16:11:05 [PaulVincent]
[13] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090317032509.51624560%2540kiferserv
16:11:45 [sandro]
q+
16:12:28 [ChrisW]
ack s
16:12:32 [csma]
q+
16:12:45 [josb]
seems fine
16:13:48 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: thought we wanted a list for Core e.g. with standard builtins, works with Java for PRD, and could be implemented in BLD etc with Prolog lists if desired
16:14:33 [Harold]
Sandro, we did have discussions about 'built-in' lists, but then converged to go for general lists that can be non-ground.
16:15:19 [josb]
I suppose we would not have lists in the head in Core?
16:15:26 [josb]
How could we then define append?
16:16:09 [sandro]
q?
16:16:17 [PaulVincent]
Christian: not sure that proposal is what PRD required... eg X is a list and is X empty and membership tests and counts
16:16:32 [PaulVincent]
Michael: these can all be done
16:17:02 [Harold]
Jos, append would not need to be user-definable in Core (although in BLD): we could have a concatenation built-in on top of Michael's revised list proposal.
16:17:10 [PaulVincent]
Christian: variables in lists cannot be done in PRD
16:17:41 [Gary]
variables should be ok as long as safety is respected
16:17:58 [josb]
OK, that's what I thought
16:18:04 [ChrisW]
ack c
16:18:41 [PaulVincent]
Christian: why in PRD would a list need to be a different type versus another datatype
16:21:04 [sandro]
csma was imagining lists being external, not giving in a rif ruleset.
16:21:26 [sandro]
csma: If we have no variables inside lists inside core, maybe that's equivalent.
16:22:09 [sandro]
if Seq(1 ?x ?y 3) == ?z then ....
16:24:00 [sandro]
sandro: this is equivalent to putting Function Terms in core.
16:24:16 [sandro]
kifer: true, but not if we have safety.
16:24:20 [josb]
but you need to disallow lists with vars in head
16:24:31 [PaulVincent]
Isn't this more of a regexp type of "list"?
16:24:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 10
16:24:33 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "Core-ifying SWC" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:24:39 [sandro]
gary: note that if you have trees, you'd need to recurse down to match up the variables, like unifying terms.
16:26:04 [PaulVincent]
Jos: new potential issue...
16:26:06 [josb]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0021.html
16:28:12 [PaulVincent]
Jos prefers disallow using rdfs:Resource in the rules and in RDF triples that are not of the form xxx rdf:type rdfs:Resource in the embedding
16:28:35 [ChrisW]
q?
16:28:37 [AxelPolleres]
sigh.
16:28:42 [PaulVincent]
Chris: AOB?
16:28:48 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:28:53 [Zakim]
-Michael_Kifer
16:28:54 [PaulVincent]
Chris: Adjourn
16:28:54 [Zakim]
-josb
16:28:55 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:28:56 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:28:57 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:28:57 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Harold, csma, +43.12.aaaa, josb, ChrisW, Jules, DaveReynolds, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer
16:29:05 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:29:06 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
16:29:14 [ChrisW]
Regrets: AdrianPaschke LeoraMorgenstern
16:29:19 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
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-Paul_Vincent
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-ChrisW
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-Jules
16:30:11 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Mike_Dean, Harold, csma, +43.12.aaaa, josb, ChrisW, Jules, DaveReynolds, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer
17:29:21 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
18:01:56 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
18:30:27 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
20:26:56 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif