IRC log of rif on 2009-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:54 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:53:54 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-irc

14:54:04 [ChrisW]

zakim, this will be rif

14:54:05 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

14:54:06 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

14:54:08 [ChrisW]

zakim, clear agenda

14:54:08 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:54:23 [ChrisW]

Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 March 2009

14:54:29 [ChrisW]

Chair: Chris Welty

14:54:32 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:54:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

14:54:54 [ChrisW]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0103.html

14:55:24 [ChrisW]

ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 March RIF Telecon, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0103.html

14:56:00 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:56:05 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Admin

14:56:17 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Liason

14:56:29 [ChrisW]

agenda+ F2F13

14:56:34 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Action Review

14:57:00 [ChrisW]

agenda+ New XML Schema

14:57:15 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Issue-92

14:57:19 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Issue-80

14:57:25 [ChrisW]

agenda+ rdf:text

14:57:31 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Lists

14:57:43 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Core-ifying SWC

14:57:49 [ChrisW]

agenda+ AOB

14:58:04 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rif

14:59:02 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

14:59:23 [ChrisW]

zakim, list agenda

14:59:23 [Zakim]

I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:

14:59:24 [Zakim]

1. Admin [from ChrisW]

14:59:24 [Zakim]

2. Liason [from ChrisW]

14:59:25 [Zakim]

3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]

14:59:25 [Zakim]

4. Action Review [from ChrisW]

14:59:26 [Zakim]

5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]

14:59:28 [Zakim]

6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]

14:59:31 [Zakim]

7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]

14:59:34 [Zakim]

8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]

14:59:35 [Zakim]

9. Lists [from ChrisW]

14:59:38 [Zakim]

10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]

14:59:40 [Zakim]

11. AOB [from ChrisW]

14:59:44 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

14:59:51 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

14:59:52 [PaulVincent]

PaulVincent has joined #rif

14:59:56 [ChrisW]

Harold, I've put the new schema on the agenda

15:00:16 [Zakim]

+[NRCC]

15:00:33 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:00:42 [Harold]

zakim, NRCC is me.

15:00:42 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:00:50 [Harold]

Chris, thanks.

15:01:15 [Zakim]

+Paul_Vincent

15:01:48 [ChrisW]

zakim, Paul_Vincent contains csma

15:01:48 [Zakim]

+csma; got it

15:01:51 [Zakim]

+ +43.12.aaaa

15:02:04 [josb]

josb has joined #rif

15:02:27 [ChrisW]

zakim, ibm is temporarily me

15:02:27 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

15:02:30 [Zakim]

+Jules

15:02:39 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:02:50 [csma]

zakim, mute me

15:02:50 [Zakim]

sorry, csma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:03:09 [PaulVincent]

zakim, muteme

15:03:10 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'muteme', PaulVincent

15:03:16 [PaulVincent]

zakim, mute me

15:03:16 [Zakim]

Paul_Vincent should now be muted

15:03:30 [Zakim]

+??P22

15:03:39 [PaulVincent]

zakim, unmute me

15:03:39 [Zakim]

Paul_Vincent should no longer be muted

15:04:03 [ChrisW]

Scribe: PaulVincent

15:04:08 [ChrisW]

scribenick: PaulVincent

15:04:15 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 1

15:04:15 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:04:25 [ChrisW]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/att-0035/03-rif-minutes.html

15:04:32 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: approve last week's minutes

15:04:46 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: approve last week's minutes

15:04:52 [ChrisW]

zakim, list agenda

15:04:59 [Zakim]

I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:

15:05:05 [Zakim]

1. Admin [from ChrisW]

15:05:07 [Zakim]

2. Liason [from ChrisW]

15:05:09 [Zakim]

3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]

15:05:10 [Zakim]

4. Action Review [from ChrisW]

15:05:13 [Zakim]

5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]

15:05:15 [Zakim]

6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]

15:05:17 [Zakim]

7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]

15:05:19 [Zakim]

8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]

15:05:20 [Zakim]

9. Lists [from ChrisW]

15:05:23 [Zakim]

10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]

15:05:26 [Zakim]

11. AOB [from ChrisW]

15:05:29 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:05:40 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:06:13 [AxelPolleres]

AxelPolleres has joined #rif

15:06:54 [PaulVincent]

OWL WG has resolved to RIF request

15:07:26 [Zakim]

+??P27

15:08:22 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:Features

15:08:27 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif

15:08:53 [PaulVincent]

Axel: SPARQL discussions on proposed features in progress

15:09:13 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

15:09:18 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 3

15:09:18 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "F2F13" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:10:03 [PaulVincent]

Chris: get reservations in ASAP

15:10:16 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 4

15:10:16 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:11:12 [josb]

disjunction and equality

15:11:57 [csma]

continued

15:11:58 [PaulVincent]

all actions continued except...

15:12:25 [csma]

continued

15:12:45 [gary]

gary has joined #rif

15:13:27 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:13:27 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:13:59 [Zakim]

+Gary_Hallmark

15:14:10 [ChrisW]

zakim, list agenda

15:14:10 [Zakim]

I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:

15:14:11 [Zakim]

2. Liason [from ChrisW]

15:14:11 [Zakim]

3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]

15:14:12 [Zakim]

5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]

15:14:12 [Zakim]

6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]

15:14:13 [Zakim]

7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]

15:14:13 [Zakim]

8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]

15:14:15 [Zakim]

9. Lists [from ChrisW]

15:14:19 [Zakim]

10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]

15:14:19 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 5

15:14:20 [Zakim]

11. AOB [from ChrisW]

15:14:23 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "New XML Schema" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:14:54 [PaulVincent]

Harold: finished schema but changkai not present - return to later in meeting

15:15:02 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 6

15:15:03 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Issue-92" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:15:49 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED:* To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].

15:16:01 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].

15:16:21 [Michael_Kifer]

Michael_Kifer has joined #rif

15:16:34 [sandro]

+1

15:16:38 [AxelPolleres]

+1

15:16:45 [DaveReynolds]

+1

15:17:03 [josb]

0

15:17:08 [ChrisW]

+1

15:17:10 [mdean]

+1

15:17:15 [PaulVincent]

0

15:17:24 [gary]

0

15:17:38 [Harold]

0

15:17:40 [Zakim]

+Michael_Kifer

15:18:22 [Michael_Kifer]

+1

15:18:42 [csma]

0

15:18:53 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: To keep the separation between preds, funcs, and individuals, but pred, func, external symbols can have multiple arities. Closing ISSUE-92 [5].

15:19:01 [ChrisW]

action: chris to close issue 92

15:19:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-716 - Close issue 92 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-03-31].

15:19:07 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, pointer

15:19:07 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-irc#T15-19-07

15:19:37 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 7

15:19:37 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "Issue-80" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:20:53 [DaveReynolds]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0076.html

15:20:59 [PaulVincent]

CSMA: options are from Dave's email - see agenda

15:21:47 [PaulVincent]

- From the minutes of last week [1], the only proposed resolution with only positive opinions according to the polls is the following (but Dave and Jos were not present and did not state an opinion about that option in there emails) * Option (1) would be opposed (-1) by Adrian, and option (0) by sandro; * option (2), preferred by Dave, has mildly negation opinions (0.5) from Gary and Jos, and slightly negative opinion (0.1) from Michael; * option (3), pr

15:23:32 [PaulVincent]

Proposal was: Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL

15:23:39 [josb]

I would object to 2

15:23:53 [josb]

see also the Mar 3rd minutes

15:23:56 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED:* Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL). Closing ISSUE-80 [6].

15:24:02 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: Have xpath-style-equals, xpath-style-not-equals, AND pred:literal-not-equal for non-identical-literals (eg for OWL RL). Closing ISSUE-80 [6].

15:24:39 [AxelPolleres]

you don't mean new predicates do you?

15:25:33 [DaveReynolds]

q+

15:25:34 [PaulVincent]

Christian: this is a combination of options 1 and 3

15:25:39 [AxelPolleres]

q+

15:26:05 [josb]

unless someone makes a compelling case, I will object

15:26:19 [PaulVincent]

Chris: to summarize.... no I cant

15:27:00 [PaulVincent]

Dave: addition is xpath-style-no-equals

15:28:25 [PaulVincent]

Christian: proposed only from the polls last week as the least opposed solution

15:29:06 [PaulVincent]

Axel: 2 new predicates - would they be extensible or not? Christian: they would keep extensibility

15:29:58 [josb]

NO

15:30:06 [josb]

I was not there last week

15:30:13 [AxelPolleres]

wasn't there either

15:30:42 [gary]

1 is xpath-equal to 1.0 but not literal-equal

15:31:40 [csma]

option "(2)" pred:literal-equal "as is" --- literal-equal(x,y) iff literal(x) and literal(y) and x=y

15:33:04 [josb]

2009-01-01T01:00 GMT neq 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1

15:33:19 [josb]

2009-01-01T01:00 GMT not-identical 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1

15:33:27 [josb]

2009-01-01T01:00 GMT datetime-equal 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1

15:34:07 [AxelPolleres]

but they are '=', aren't they?

15:34:33 [sandro]

I think have literal-not-equals is important, not literal-not-identical.

15:35:42 [AxelPolleres]

literal-equal is currently "=" plus a value space check

15:36:15 [AxelPolleres]

so: literal-equal ( 2009-01-01T01:00 GMT 2009-01-01T02:00 GMT+1 ) holds

15:36:33 [AxelPolleres]

I don't know what not-identical is.

15:36:52 [ChrisW]

identical is rif:=

15:36:53 [DaveReynolds]

q+

15:37:08 [ChrisW]

equality is datatype-equality e.g. with numerics and dates

15:38:39 [ChrisW]

ack AxelPolleres

15:38:41 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:literal-equal

15:44:31 [sandro]

Sandro: I *think* for owl RL we need non-identity in the value space of literals, not numeric-not-equal.

15:44:50 [josb]

q+

15:45:26 [ChrisW]

q?

15:45:27 [sandro]

chris: Dave's ruleset needs literal-non-identity

15:45:28 [ChrisW]

ack josb

15:46:47 [sandro]

literal-identical, literal-non-identical, literal-equal, literal-not-equal

15:47:07 [AxelPolleres]

literal-identical is redundant

15:47:24 [AxelPolleres]

literal-equal had promotion?

15:47:33 [josb]

yes

15:47:41 [PaulVincent]

Literal-identical is literal-identical or literal-qual with existing RIF?

15:48:53 [AxelPolleres]

literal-not-equal means unequal incl. promotion

15:49:24 [AxelPolleres]

literal-not-identical is what is now literal-not-equal in the spec

15:49:46 [sandro]

gary wants literal-equals

15:49:50 [ChrisW]

literal-not-identical: use case for OWL-RL ruleset

15:50:21 [ChrisW]

literal-identical: symmetric with above

15:50:22 [sandro]

axel: What's in the current draft as literal-equal and literal-non-equal is what we're currently talking about as literal-identical and literal-not-identical.

15:50:57 [AxelPolleres]

BUT: literal-not-equal (incl. promotion) would back up XPAths !=

15:51:04 [sandro]

chris: need to verify that OWL is using identity, not xpath-style-equality.

15:51:50 [DaveReynolds]

Jos - are you sure it is doing so for xsd:dateTimeStamp?

15:51:54 [PaulVincent]

Jos: OWL is using identity as we use in RIF

15:52:33 [sandro]

PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. true for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. false if different data type. false if either is not a literal. false if same type and different point in value space

15:52:45 [josb]

yes, it always uses identity

15:53:03 [AxelPolleres]

literal-not-identical would be jsut obtained by renaming the current http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:literal-not-equal

15:53:53 [josb]

q+

15:54:16 [sandro]

PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. false for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. true if different data type. false if either is not a literal. true if same type and different point in value space

15:54:22 [AxelPolleres]

the proposal amounts to "PROPOSED: rename pred:literal-not-equal to pred:literal-not-identical", correct?

15:54:57 [sandro]

PROPOSED: include literal-not-identical in DTB. false for two literals that map to the same point in the value space. true if different data type. false if either is not a literal. true if same type and different point in value space. (THAT is, rename pred:literal-not-equal to pred:literal-not-identical.)

15:56:05 [ChrisW]

action: jos to check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset

15:56:05 [trackbot]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos

15:56:05 [trackbot]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)

15:56:17 [ChrisW]

action: josb to check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset

15:56:17 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-717 - Check impact of pred:literal-not-identical to OWL-RL ruleset [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-03-31].

15:57:33 [ChrisW]

zakim, list agenda

15:57:33 [Zakim]

I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:

15:57:34 [Zakim]

2. Liason [from ChrisW]

15:57:34 [Zakim]

3. F2F13 [from ChrisW]

15:57:35 [Zakim]

5. New XML Schema [from ChrisW]

15:57:35 [Zakim]

6. Issue-92 [from ChrisW]

15:57:36 [Zakim]

7. Issue-80 [from ChrisW]

15:57:36 [Zakim]

8. rdf:text [from ChrisW]

15:57:38 [Zakim]

9. Lists [from ChrisW]

15:57:40 [Zakim]

10. Core-ifying SWC [from ChrisW]

15:57:41 [Zakim]

11. AOB [from ChrisW]

15:58:13 [Gary]

Gary has joined #rif

15:58:18 [AxelPolleres]

I don't see anything changed from the current status, except a renaming proposal from -equal to -identical

15:58:18 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 8

15:58:18 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "rdf:text" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:58:52 [josb]

URI?

15:58:54 [PaulVincent]

- The OWL WG would like to move rdf:text to LC [10]. What shall we do about ISSUE-86 [8] (rdf:text implies changes to SPARQL) and ISSUE-87 [9] (rdf:text re-interprets xs:string as a subtype of rdf:text)?

15:59:16 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec

15:59:36 [josb]

q+

16:00:47 [josb]

q-

16:01:24 [AxelPolleres]

I didn't have a handle on it recently, sorry.

16:04:26 [AxelPolleres]

I can take an action to get up-to-date on the issues and status by one but nexty teleconf. (will be on a review meeting next week)

16:05:08 [PaulVincent]

Sandro: lots of editorial notes still in this spec

16:05:25 [PaulVincent]

Sandro: call for reviewers

16:06:26 [AxelPolleres]

AxelPolleres has left #rif

16:06:37 [AxelPolleres]

AxelPolleres has joined #rif

16:07:05 [ChrisW]

zakim, pick a victim

16:07:05 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AxelPolleres

16:07:10 [ChrisW]

zakim, pick a victim

16:07:10 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose josb

16:07:13 [ChrisW]

zakim, pick a victim

16:07:13 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jules

16:07:18 [PaulVincent]

Chris: needs to be discussed prior to closing - reviewer will be Jos

16:07:33 [ChrisW]

action: sandro to review rdf:text for RIF

16:07:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-718 - Review rdf:text for RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-03-31].

16:08:56 [Harold]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-Core

16:09:10 [Harold]

http://www.jdrew.org/rif/core/wd2/absquared.rif

16:09:24 [PaulVincent]

Chair: are we on Agendum 5?

16:09:25 [Harold]

http://www.jdrew.org/rif/core/wd2/ex7CounterExample.rif

16:10:20 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 9

16:10:20 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "Lists" taken up [from ChrisW]

16:11:01 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists

16:11:05 [PaulVincent]

[13] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090317032509.51624560%2540kiferserv

16:11:45 [sandro]

q+

16:12:28 [ChrisW]

ack s

16:12:32 [csma]

q+

16:12:45 [josb]

seems fine

16:13:48 [PaulVincent]

Sandro: thought we wanted a list for Core e.g. with standard builtins, works with Java for PRD, and could be implemented in BLD etc with Prolog lists if desired

16:14:33 [Harold]

Sandro, we did have discussions about 'built-in' lists, but then converged to go for general lists that can be non-ground.

16:15:19 [josb]

I suppose we would not have lists in the head in Core?

16:15:26 [josb]

How could we then define append?

16:16:09 [sandro]

q?

16:16:17 [PaulVincent]

Christian: not sure that proposal is what PRD required... eg X is a list and is X empty and membership tests and counts

16:16:32 [PaulVincent]

Michael: these can all be done

16:17:02 [Harold]

Jos, append would not need to be user-definable in Core (although in BLD): we could have a concatenation built-in on top of Michael's revised list proposal.

16:17:10 [PaulVincent]

Christian: variables in lists cannot be done in PRD

16:17:41 [Gary]

variables should be ok as long as safety is respected

16:17:58 [josb]

OK, that's what I thought

16:18:04 [ChrisW]

ack c

16:18:41 [PaulVincent]

Christian: why in PRD would a list need to be a different type versus another datatype

16:21:04 [sandro]

csma was imagining lists being external, not giving in a rif ruleset.

16:21:26 [sandro]

csma: If we have no variables inside lists inside core, maybe that's equivalent.

16:22:09 [sandro]

if Seq(1 ?x ?y 3) == ?z then ....

16:24:00 [sandro]

sandro: this is equivalent to putting Function Terms in core.

16:24:16 [sandro]

kifer: true, but not if we have safety.

16:24:20 [josb]

but you need to disallow lists with vars in head

16:24:31 [PaulVincent]

Isn't this more of a regexp type of "list"?

16:24:33 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 10

16:24:33 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "Core-ifying SWC" taken up [from ChrisW]

16:24:39 [sandro]

gary: note that if you have trees, you'd need to recurse down to match up the variables, like unifying terms.

16:26:04 [PaulVincent]

Jos: new potential issue...

16:26:06 [josb]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Mar/0021.html

16:28:12 [PaulVincent]

Jos prefers disallow using rdfs:Resource in the rules and in RDF triples that are not of the form xxx rdf:type rdfs:Resource in the embedding

16:28:35 [ChrisW]

q?

16:28:37 [AxelPolleres]

sigh.

16:28:42 [PaulVincent]

Chris: AOB?

16:28:48 [Zakim]

-Harold

16:28:53 [Zakim]

-Michael_Kifer

16:28:54 [PaulVincent]

Chris: Adjourn

16:28:54 [Zakim]

-josb

16:28:55 [Zakim]

-DaveReynolds

16:28:56 [Zakim]

-Gary_Hallmark

16:28:57 [ChrisW]

zakim, list attendees

16:28:57 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Harold, csma, +43.12.aaaa, josb, ChrisW, Jules, DaveReynolds, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer

16:29:05 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

16:29:06 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

16:29:14 [ChrisW]

Regrets: AdrianPaschke LeoraMorgenstern

16:29:19 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:29:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

16:30:07 [Zakim]

-Paul_Vincent

16:30:09 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:30:11 [Zakim]

-Jules

16:30:11 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:30:12 [Zakim]

Attendees were Mike_Dean, Harold, csma, +43.12.aaaa, josb, ChrisW, Jules, DaveReynolds, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer

17:29:21 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

18:01:56 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif

18:30:27 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif

20:26:56 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif