19:32:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:32:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-svg-irc
19:32:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:32:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:32:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
19:32:37 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:32:37 <trackbot> Date: 19 March 2009
19:32:54 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:33:01 <Zakim> +??P2
19:33:11 <ed_> Zakim, ?? is me
19:33:11 <Zakim> +ed_; got it
19:33:37 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:34:27 <Zakim> +??P3
19:34:35 <anthony> Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:34:35 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
19:36:03 <heycam> Zakim, code?
19:36:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), heycam
19:36:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:36:14 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
19:36:14 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:37:40 <ed_> Zakim, pick a victim
19:37:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
19:37:49 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:37:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
19:37:53 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:37:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
19:37:56 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:37:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anthony
19:37:59 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:37:59 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:38:04 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:38:04 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed_
19:38:08 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:38:08 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed_
19:38:10 <Zakim> -heycam
19:38:12 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
19:38:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anthony
19:38:24 <shepazu> the curse has been lifted!!
19:41:20 <Zakim> +??P4
19:41:24 <heycam> Zakim, ??P4 is me
19:41:24 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:42:16 <shepazu> scribeNick: shepazu 
19:42:27 <shepazu> Chair: heycam 
19:42:35 <shepazu> Topic: We Are Robots
19:42:46 <heycam> s/heycam/Erik/
19:43:36 <ed_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0254.html
19:43:51 <heycam> s/Erik/heycam/
19:43:55 <shepazu> Topic: 3d Transforms
19:44:40 <shepazu> heycam: I saw various emails about publication, what's the status?
19:45:00 <shepazu> shepazu: CSS is ready to publish
19:51:32 <shepazu> shepazu: we could be ready to publish as early as tomorrow
19:52:10 <shepazu> shepazu: the open question is, do we want to form a CSS-SVG Task Force about this?
19:52:38 <shepazu> heycam: there has been some pushback on that
19:55:00 <shepazu> shepazu: we really need to have a long-term collaboration
19:55:12 <shepazu> heycam: ideally, the HCG should do that
19:55:38 <shepazu> shepazu: yes, but there's too many groups there, and there's only 1-hour telcon every 2 weeks
19:57:11 <shepazu> shepazu: there's all sorts of cross-posting problems, and we have to set up a liaison each time there's an issue... a TF would make that easier
19:57:26 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
19:57:47 <heycam> CM: how about us subscribing to www-style and doing coordination there?
19:57:58 <heycam> DS: there are many other mails to www-style, would be distracting
19:58:22 <heycam> ... a taskforce with a dedicated mailing list is just a little bit more email for each group
19:59:12 <heycam> ... i'd like for the taskforce to be public
20:00:17 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We are in favour of creating a taskforce for coordination on Transforms
20:00:40 <heycam> DS: it might be too late for coordination on transforms FPWD
20:02:11 <heycam> CM: what are the open issues on Transforms?
20:02:19 <heycam> ... did dean's comments get put into the spec as issues?
20:02:22 <heycam> AG: not all of them
20:02:30 <shepazu> s/for coordination on transforms FPWD/for forming a TF mailing list for comments on transforms FPWD/
20:03:13 <heycam> DS: a couple of them are in there, i think
20:03:55 <heycam> ... first one was what to do about z-index/layeredG
20:04:12 <heycam> ... second one was the 4x4 matrix
20:04:30 <heycam> AG: i have a note in there about transform-style
20:04:40 <heycam> DS: both of those comments are in there already
20:06:04 <heycam> ... anthony, you should write up an analysis of why we choose 3x3 over 4x4
20:06:18 <heycam> ... like you described at the F2F
20:07:08 <heycam> AG: you could render to an offscren buffer, then blit that using OpenVG's perspective transform
20:07:47 <heycam> ACTION: Anthony to write up the reasoning for using 3x3 matrix in SVG Transforms
20:07:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2498 - Write up the reasoning for using 3x3 matrix in SVG Transforms [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-03-26].
20:08:49 <heycam> ACTION-2498: Put it in the wiki
20:08:49 <trackbot> ACTION-2498 Write up the reasoning for using 3x3 matrix in SVG Transforms notes added
20:15:20 <heycam> DS: the css wg agreed to publish all four of the apple specs as fpwds, but they want to move more slowly on 3d transforms
20:16:13 <heycam> Topic: SVG / ODF
20:16:21 <heycam> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/200902/msg00007.html
20:16:37 <heycam> DS: this came up on the SVG IG list
20:17:01 <shepazu> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/200902/msg00007.html
20:17:20 <heycam> ... AN noted that there was a proposal from the staff contact for the ODF TC saying:
20:17:24 <shepazu> [[
20:17:26 <shepazu> You are invited to help define the feature set of the next revision of OASIS
20:17:26 <shepazu> Open Document Format (ODF) to follow ODF 1.2. Help us take "ODF-Next" to a
20:17:26 <shepazu> higher stage of document evolution. Be creative. Push the envelope. Be
20:17:26 <shepazu> provocative. Change the paradigm. Start a revolution. The only limits on our
20:17:27 <shepazu> vision are our own.
20:17:28 <shepazu> ]]
20:18:32 <shepazu> http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/Requirements
20:18:55 <heycam> ED: they're looking for comments before the end of the month
20:19:03 <heycam> DS: the earlier the better, since we might have some back and forth on this
20:19:14 <heycam> .. i've joined their mailing list
20:19:19 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_ODF#Proposed_Liaison_Prose
20:19:27 <heycam> ... i've been doing some research on this, going back through old issues
20:19:56 <heycam> ... i have some background, a summary of the current state [in this wiki page]
20:20:24 <heycam> ... they claim that they have svg support, but they don't
20:20:44 <heycam> ... they can import svg (in oo.org) into their Draw format, and they can export their Draw format to svg
20:20:55 <heycam> ... they use SVG attributes, but use them in a namespace (instead of the null namespace)
20:21:14 <heycam> ... and they don't use them on svg elements, they use them on <ns:rect svg:width='...'/>
20:21:18 <heycam> s/on/like/
20:21:25 <heycam> s/like/on/
20:21:36 <heycam> s/, they use them on/, they use them like/
20:22:37 <heycam> DS: we need to convince them to actually use svg, as a native object
20:22:55 <heycam> ... so that you can generate it using whatever tools, and have it work in their document format
20:24:31 <heycam> ED: it would be important to make sure they follow guidelines, if they need to extend svg in some way then they should do it in a way that is still compatible with svg
20:24:40 <heycam> ... e.g. putting extensions to svg in their own namespace
20:24:47 <heycam> DS: i mention that in the wiki page
20:24:57 <heycam> ED: there's a page/section in 1.2T, we should give a link to that
20:25:26 <heycam> DS: i would also say that the SVG WG is interested in getting their feedback, and that we'd be willing to working with them on features that they would want from svg
20:25:44 <ed_> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/extend.html#ForeignNamespacesPrivateData
20:27:31 <heycam> CM: should we just add things to the wiki page?
20:27:35 <heycam> DS: i'd like a deadline
20:27:46 <heycam> ... i researched it pretty thoroughly
20:27:51 <heycam> ... i'd like to send it fairly soon
20:28:06 <heycam> ... so if you could check over it over the next couple of days, that would be good
20:29:01 <heycam> ED: i'd like to see a requirement that if they do extensions, that they follow our guidelines
20:29:09 <heycam> ... i can add that to the wiki page
20:30:05 <heycam> DS: missing at the moment is exact technicaly requirements on what we want to change
20:30:16 <heycam> ... i'll research how they do embedding in ODF
20:33:05 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We will ask ODF TC to use SVG for the native graphics format
20:33:53 <shepazu> sthe native /a native /
20:34:17 <shepazu> s/the native /a native /
20:34:44 <heycam> Topic: SVG in government
20:35:05 <heycam> s/government/HTML/
20:41:00 <heycam> CM: started looking at the proposal pages briefly yesterday
20:41:07 <heycam> ... i'll commit some changes
20:41:14 <heycam> ED: did you add all of the parse errors?
20:41:19 <heycam> DS: i added them for nonquoted attributes
20:42:17 <heycam> ED: we should discuss <script> and <style>
20:43:02 <heycam> DS: what happens if you have an inline <svg> with an element that is outside the viewport and someone links to that outside-viewport element with a fragid
20:43:51 <heycam> CM: in fact, what should that do even for a visible svg element.  something more than just scrolling to the whole <svg> block?
20:43:59 <heycam> DS: i want to be able to link to a particular time, too
20:44:51 <heycam> ... should that seek html things too (video, audio)?
20:46:07 <heycam> ED: for <script> afaiui i'm fine with treating it just like the html <script> element
20:46:16 <heycam> ... with the exception of xlink:href instead of src
20:46:21 <heycam> CM: or in addition to src?
20:46:30 <heycam> ED: that's from the www-svg feedback
20:46:42 <heycam> DS: so you wouldn't need to put cdata sections around the script content?
20:46:54 <heycam> ED: you would have to comment those cdata things
20:47:09 <heycam> DS: i thought people were saying something else
20:47:15 <heycam> ED: if you want it to work both in xml and svg
20:47:24 <heycam> DS: i thought jonas was saying that it would automatically handle CDATA
20:47:39 <ed_> s/xml and svg/svg+xml and svg+html/
20:48:06 <heycam> CM: right, i think that was one of his proposals, to ignore the "<![CDATA[" at the front
20:48:14 <heycam> ED: that's one of the proposals
20:48:30 <heycam> DS: i think jonas was suggesting that CDATA blocks just work, and i think that's a better way forward
20:49:12 <heycam> CM: i'm happiest with that proposal so far
20:50:15 <heycam> DS: there aren't many incompatibilities
20:50:58 <heycam> CM: there's the issue of entities in XML copied across to <script> in HTML and their being interpreted as actual "&" characters
20:51:19 <heycam> ... but i think that would be rare
20:51:34 <heycam> ... the issue about xml serialisers perhap generating content like that would be my biggest concern
20:51:37 <heycam> ... and that's a small concern
20:51:50 <heycam> ED: what would need to change in our text to make this happen?
20:52:02 <heycam> ... would the CDATA model be able to handle this? or do we need to add a special mode for it?
20:54:21 <heycam> DS: i think <style> should be treated in the same way as <script>
20:54:41 <heycam> ed_work, we should check how <script><!-- ... --></script> is treated
20:55:27 <heycam> ED: how about <script defer>
20:56:00 <heycam> CM: i'd like <script> and <style> to be the union of svg's and html's
20:56:54 <heycam> ED: can you do <style src> in html?
20:57:08 <ed_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-style-element
20:57:09 <heycam> ... i'd want the src attribute on <script> to work in svg
20:58:12 <heycam> DS: i'm fine with adding all those attributes (in SVG 2)
20:59:10 <ed_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#script
21:01:13 <heycam> CM: type was accidentally animatable in SVG 1.1
21:01:19 <heycam> ... there's an erratum to make it not animatable
21:01:32 <shepazu> ISSUE-2239?
21:01:32 <trackbot> ISSUE-2239 -- Add HTML5 script-element attributes to SVG's script element -- RAISED
21:01:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2239
21:01:37 <heycam> ... but i think the attribute is still of type SVGAnimatedString
21:01:46 <heycam> ... no, that's xlink:href actually
21:02:54 <shepazu> ISSUE-2042?
21:02:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-2042 -- Consider adding adding non-NS linking syntax -- RAISED
21:02:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2042
21:03:52 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We want SVG <script> and <style> to be of type CDATA but to treat "<![CDATA[" and "]]>" at start/end specially
21:04:09 <heycam> s/SVG/SVG-in-HTML/
21:06:42 <shepazu> ISSUE-2240?
21:06:42 <trackbot> ISSUE-2240 -- Add HTML5 style-element attributes to SVG's style element -- RAISED
21:06:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2240
21:06:45 <heycam> Topic: allowReorder on <switch>
21:07:09 <heycam> DS: can we add that to 1.2T at this point?
21:07:35 <heycam> ED: i read the spec text for it, it seems it's all informative
21:07:53 <heycam> DS: i think that's a mistake
21:07:56 <heycam> ED: doesn't seem useful to do it like that
21:08:53 <heycam> ED: the text says that the UA can pick any language it likes from the list, when allowReorder is true
21:09:05 <heycam> ... it doesn't mention the case when there are other required* attribute on the children
21:09:11 <heycam> ... it's fine as long as there's only systemLanguage
21:09:22 <heycam> DS: systemLanguage is probably the primary use
21:10:01 <heycam> ED: it would be better to state the exact order to pick the languages based on Accept header qualities
21:10:21 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We want SYMM WG to clarify allowReorder processing in an erratum
21:10:34 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to ask SYMM WG to clarify allowReorder processing in an erratum
21:10:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2499 - Ask SYMM WG to clarify allowReorder processing in an erratum [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-26].
21:11:02 <heycam> ED: probably too late for 1.2T, we can add it to Core 2.0
21:11:17 <heycam> DS: i think UAs could still implement it, practically
21:12:23 <shepazu> ISSUE-2238?
21:12:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-2238 -- Add @allowReorder to <switch> -- RAISED
21:12:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2238
21:13:06 <shepazu> ISSUE-2207?
21:13:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-2207 -- be happy ☻ -- CLOSED
21:13:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2207
21:14:55 <Zakim> -heycam
21:14:56 <Zakim> -ed_
21:14:57 <Zakim> -anthony
21:15:14 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:15:15 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
21:15:16 <Zakim> Attendees were ed_, Shepazu, anthony, [IPcaller], heycam
21:15:21 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:15:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:15:38 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:15:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
22:26:46 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg