14:50:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:50:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc
14:51:02 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:51:02 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:23 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:51:27 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
14:51:38 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:51:48 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:52:01 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-05
14:52:08 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:52:27 <msporny> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html
14:52:49 <msporny> regrets: Michael_Hausenblas
14:53:21 <msporny> present: Ralph_Swick Mark_Birbeck Shane_McCarron Manu_Sporny
14:53:25 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:55:04 <msporny> Ralph, would it be possible to update scribe.perl to detect a "previous:" tag in the IRC stream?
14:55:14 <msporny> It would be pretty useful to have...
14:55:16 <Ralph> small matter of code :)
14:55:23 <msporny> large matter of time?
14:55:28 <Ralph> there's a history to that script :)
14:55:32 <msporny> ha
14:55:45 <Ralph> a rewrite has been "any time now" for a very long time
14:55:53 <msporny> only editable on a full moon? Requires an intern as a sacrifice?
14:55:55 <msporny> ahh
14:56:27 <Ralph> but yes, recognizing 'previous:' is one of the things I'd add if I decide to break the current deadlock
14:56:45 <msporny> I'd be happy to add a patch if I could see the code... :)
14:56:59 <Ralph> it's public
14:57:22 <msporny> ooh, so could I add a patch? Or would that cause too much work on the deployment side?
14:57:26 <Ralph> -> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ scribe script source
14:57:29 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
14:57:41 <msporny> present+ Steven_Pemberton
14:58:03 <Ralph> one of us would vet the patch
14:58:09 <Ralph> s/the/a/
14:58:14 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:58:16 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:58:18 <msporny> Hi Steven :)
14:59:20 <Zakim> +??P3
14:59:21 <Zakim> -??P3
14:59:22 <Zakim> +??P3
14:59:27 <msporny> zakim, I am ?P3
14:59:27 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '?P3'
14:59:31 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P3
14:59:31 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
14:59:37 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:02:35 <ShaneM> CURIE Javascript: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
15:02:49 <msporny> Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs 
15:02:49 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:49 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:50 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:29 <Ralph> Chair: Manu
15:04:32 <Ralph> Scribe: Ralph
15:04:37 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
15:04:39 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?
15:04:39 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:04:46 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:04:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:04:55 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:05:11 <Ralph> Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the prefix is defined
15:05:29 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:05:33 <Ralph> Manu: that's test 9004
15:05:42 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:05:49 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:05:54 <Zakim> +??P12
15:06:00 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:06:00 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:06:36 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:06:46 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:07:08 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:07:14 <Ralph> Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the correct result
15:07:34 <Ralph> ... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the right approach
15:08:23 <Ralph> ... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the original mail didn't realize
15:08:34 <Ralph> ... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396
15:08:55 <Ralph> ... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is different
15:08:59 <Ralph> ... affects test 114
15:09:32 <Ralph> ... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site
15:09:44 <benadida> content is href="../../../../../../../../../../"
15:10:24 <Ralph> ... the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396
15:10:41 <Ralph> ... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986
15:10:57 <Ralph> ... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I believe
15:11:05 <Ralph> ... add the note in the SPARQL result
15:11:10 <Ralph> Ben: sounds good
15:11:34 <Ralph> s/ACTION:/[PENDING] ACTION:
15:11:41 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:11:46 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:12:00 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
15:12:04 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:13 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:12:20 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:12:28 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:12:35 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:12:47 <Ralph> Chair: Ben
15:12:55 <Ralph> Topic: Test Cases
15:14:07 <Ralph> Topic: Primer Aside
15:14:17 <Ralph> Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice at the time
15:14:28 <Ralph> ... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed
15:14:38 <Ralph> ... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in
15:14:49 <Ralph> Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off
15:14:58 <Ralph> ... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better
15:15:12 <Ralph> Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced Primer
15:15:26 <Ralph> Ben: we're getting some interesting screen casts
15:15:31 <Ralph> ... e.g. the Drupal one
15:16:05 <Ralph> ... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly"
15:18:28 <Steven> Go Ben!
15:23:49 <Steven> q+
15:24:27 <msporny> ack steven
15:27:26 <msporny> q+
15:31:21 <msporny> q-
15:32:24 <Steven> q+
15:35:39 <markbirbeck> http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility
15:46:54 <Ralph> Topic: Test Cases
15:47:39 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
15:47:47 <Ralph> Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix value
15:48:20 <Ralph> ... see design test suite / unapproved
15:48:36 <Ralph> ... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes
15:48:45 <Ralph> ... we should pick one
15:49:07 <Ralph> Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok?
15:49:11 <markbirbeck> I'm afraid I have a 5th....
15:49:11 <ShaneM> note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems wrong
15:49:13 <markbirbeck> :)
15:49:51 <Ralph> Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the colon and sometimes not
15:49:54 <markbirbeck> he he
15:49:57 <Ralph> Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion
15:50:26 <markbirbeck> I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some interesting things.
15:50:30 <markbirbeck> e.g.:
15:50:30 <Ralph> Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace
15:50:32 <markbirbeck> prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#, dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media: http://purl.org/media#, audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#"
15:50:39 <markbirbeck> Note the commas.
15:50:50 <markbirbeck> But also allowed would be:
15:51:08 <Ralph> Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon
15:51:18 <ShaneM> ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2"
15:51:30 <markbirbeck> prefix="'xsd': 'http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#', 'dcterms':'http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media': 'http://purl.org/media#', 'audio':'http://purl.org/media/audio#'"
15:51:33 <markbirbeck> Note the quotes.
15:51:43 <Ralph> ... 9001 uses colon and whitespace
15:52:11 <Ralph> from 9001: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media: http://purl.org/media# audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#">
15:52:28 <Ralph> from 9002: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#; dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#;"
15:52:54 <Ralph> from 9003: prefix="xsd=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms = http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=http://purl.org/media# audio = http://purl.org/media/audio#>
15:53:18 <Ralph> from 9004: prefix="xsd http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media   http://purl.org/media#   audio http://purl.org/media/audio#"
15:54:51 <msporny> I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here, Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and JSON-like syntax.
15:55:09 <msporny> HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that we've chosen
15:55:20 <markbirbeck> I disagree.
15:55:37 <markbirbeck> Having a breaking character between pairs is not complex!
15:55:54 <Ralph> Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future extensibility
15:56:16 <ShaneM> markbirbeck:  not between pairs - having the same character as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I think.
15:56:49 <Ralph> Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad
15:56:59 <Ralph> ... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs
15:57:34 <Ralph> ... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex syntaxes every day
15:58:35 <Ralph> ... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format
15:58:59 <Ralph> Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me
15:59:08 <Ralph> Mark: that was the second alternative
15:59:27 <Ralph> ... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does use comma to separate the pairs
15:59:41 <benadida> rel="dc:license cc:license"
15:59:52 <Ralph> Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing space-separated properties in @rel
16:00:07 <Ralph> ... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel]
16:00:12 <Ralph> ... e.g. 9001
16:00:31 <Ralph> ... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things
16:00:55 <markbirbeck> xsd:h...
16:00:56 <Ralph> ... 9001 mixes in some extra spaces
16:01:17 <Ralph> Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ?
16:01:20 <Ralph> Ben: yes
16:01:28 <Steven> I like the use of "=" 
16:01:34 <Ralph> Mark: this looks too much like URLs
16:01:38 <Steven> because it reads like it is
16:02:47 <Ralph> Mark: I can live with 9002
16:03:13 <Ralph> ... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '='
16:03:22 <Ralph> Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator
16:03:31 <benadida> med:ia/image
16:03:33 <Ralph> ... so no space around '='
16:04:42 <Ralph> Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra space, e.g., around '='
16:04:51 <Ralph> ... the syntax should be forgiving
16:05:02 <Ralph> Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now
16:05:41 <Ralph> Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs
16:05:50 <benadida> Option 5: Mark's JSON-like 
16:06:01 <benadida> POLL
16:06:41 <Ralph> Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional separate between the pairs
16:06:59 <Ralph> ... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the pairs
16:07:13 <Ralph> Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs
16:07:36 <Steven>  http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
16:07:41 <Steven> is a valid URL
16:07:52 <Ralph> Ben: poll is not a commitment
16:08:06 <Steven> 3
16:08:14 <markbirbeck> 5
16:08:15 <msporny> +1 for prefix="a <SEPARATOR> b <PAIR_SEPARATOR> x <SEPARATOR> y"
16:08:15 <Ralph> Ralph: prefer option 3 '='
16:08:20 <ShaneM> More importantly... http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url
16:08:49 <Ralph> Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator
16:09:18 <msporny> 5
16:09:21 <Ralph> ... so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2)
16:09:57 <Ralph> Shane: prefer option 3
16:10:10 <Ralph> Steven: prefer option 3
16:10:19 <Ralph> Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3
16:10:32 <Ralph> Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2
16:10:38 <Ralph> ... can't live with 3
16:10:59 <Ralph> Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh
16:11:08 <Ralph> Ben: could allow space around the '='
16:11:24 <Ralph> Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs
16:11:35 <Ralph> Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing
16:11:47 <Ralph> Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values
16:11:54 <markbirbeck> x="y=z"
16:12:07 <Ralph> ... and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I think we're asking for trouble using it inside values
16:12:08 <ShaneM> x="Y:Z"
16:12:18 <Ralph> Ben: that seems to argue for option 1
16:13:13 <Ralph> ... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an attribute value
16:13:53 <Ralph> Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation
16:14:13 <Ralph> Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets long it becomes very confusing
16:14:20 <Ralph> ... so I count that as an existing bad pattern
16:14:35 <Ralph> Manu: worth floating this to mail?
16:15:08 <markbirbeck> +1 to Ben
16:16:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:16:33 <Ralph> Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok
16:17:43 <Ralph> ... next meeting in 2 weeks
16:17:50 <Zakim> -msporny
16:17:51 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:17:52 <Zakim> -Steven
16:17:52 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:17:59 <Ralph> ... next meeting on 2 April
16:18:00 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:18:02 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:18:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck, Ben_Adida
16:18:07 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:18:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:18:38 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:18:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:18:40 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:18:40 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:18:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]
16:18:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc#T15-06-36