IRC log of sparql on 2009-03-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:30:28 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:30:28 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-irc
13:30:32 [LeeF]: zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:30:32 [Zakim]: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
13:30:43 [LeeF]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17
13:31:27 [LeeF]: Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele
13:31:42 [LeeF]: Chair: LeeF
13:32:01 [LeeF]: Scribenick: john-l
13:33:55 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #sparql
13:40:14 [SSchenk1]: SSchenk1 has joined #sparql
13:41:42 [iv_an_ru]: LeeF, shouldn't we rename Feature:PathLength to Feature:PathDatatype? If so, shouldn't we assume that the datatype for patch is an XQuery sequence?
13:46:20 [AndyS]: Why not something RDF?
13:46:56 [AndyS]: This seems to get to a key point - the output form isn't just XML for the protocol.
13:48:04 [AndyS]: The restriction to certain path lengths does not require the full new path data type thing.
13:48:54 [AndyS]: A Q I have for Alex today is whther the use case is the important point or is it just an example of the more general mechanism.
13:49:53 [AndyS]: (AlexPassant - advance notice on a Q I would like to ask today)
13:54:25 [ericP]: AndyS, how went video?
13:54:56 [iv_an_ru]: BTW will Skype work with that video?
13:55:19 [AndyS]: EricP - didn't get a chance today - was late in.
13:55:55 [AndyS]: No idea about Skype - it's an IP videoconf system. What does Skype provide? Can MIT do multiway?
13:56:28 [SteveH]: SteveH has joined #sparql
13:56:37 [ericP]: not even gonna speculate about multiway
13:56:45 [iv_an_ru]: Skype is an IP-phone + IP-video, quite convenient I'd say.
13:56:49 [LukeWM]: LukeWM has joined #sparql
13:57:43 [Zakim]: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:57:46 [Zakim]: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
13:57:47 [Zakim]: Attendees were
13:58:09 [Zakim]: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:16 [Zakim]: +??P12
13:58:19 [AndyS]: But is it standard H.323?
13:58:27 [SteveH]: Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]
13:58:27 [Zakim]: +[Garlik]; got it
13:59:17 [Zakim]: +john-l
13:59:20 [Zakim]: +??P19
13:59:23 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P19 is me
13:59:27 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
13:59:29 [Zakim]: +Lee_Feigenbaum
13:59:58 [Zakim]: +EricP
14:00:02 [LeeF]: zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
14:00:02 [Zakim]: +LeeF; got it
14:00:10 [Zakim]: + +0491768204aaaa
14:00:33 [LeeF]: zakim, mute ericP
14:00:33 [Zakim]: EricP should now be muted
14:00:50 [ericP]: Zakim, unkute me
14:00:50 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP
14:00:55 [SSchenk1]: Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me
14:00:55 [Zakim]: sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa'
14:00:57 [ericP]: Zakim, unmute me
14:00:59 [Zakim]: EricP should no longer be muted
14:01:01 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:01:01 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:01:09 [Zakim]: +Ivan
14:01:18 [john-l]: Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1
14:01:19 [ywang4]: ywang4 has joined #sparql
14:01:20 [LeeF]: zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1
14:01:25 [Zakim]: +Souri
14:01:31 [Zakim]: +SSchenk1; got it
14:01:35 [Zakim]: sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:01:41 [Zakim]: +ywang4
14:01:42 [kjetil]: I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later
14:02:00 [Souri]: Souri has joined #sparql
14:02:32 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
14:02:33 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4
14:02:34 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
14:02:37 [john-l]: Scribe: john-l
14:03:14 [LeeF]: iv_an_ru, AlexPassant, will you be able to join us?
14:03:51 [john-l]: Regrets: Axel, members from Asemantics
14:04:37 [john-l]: SSchenk1: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge.
14:04:38 [Zakim]: +iv_an_ru
14:04:46 [john-l]: ... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list.
14:05:11 [iv_an_ru]: Nice phone is dead, but Bristol is ok.
14:05:30 [LeeF]: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week
14:05:45 [chimezie]: chimezie has joined #sparql
14:06:11 [john-l]: LeeF: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way.
14:06:15 [ericP]: +1
14:06:18 [ivan]: +1
14:06:24 [LeeF]: RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10
14:06:36 [Zakim]: +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:06:38 [Zakim]: +??P51
14:06:47 [john-l]: LeeF: Nothing from our liasons, correct?
14:06:51 [LeeF]: zakim, ??P51 is Orri
14:06:51 [Zakim]: +Orri; got it
14:07:55 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
14:07:55 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
14:07:59 [john-l]: LeeF: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings.
14:08:14 [john-l]: ... Discussion should focus on triage.
14:08:24 [john-l]: LeeF: First up, Negation. Chime?
14:08:25 [LeeF]: topic: Negation
14:08:28 [chimezie]: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation
14:08:54 [john-l]: chimezie: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph.
14:09:12 [john-l]: ... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test.
14:09:16 [SteveH]: q+ to talk about !ASK
14:09:25 [ivan]: q+
14:09:30 [john-l]: ... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched.
14:09:44 [ericP]: +1 to intuitive
14:09:48 [LeeF]: q+ to note personal pros & cons
14:09:51 [john-l]: ... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language.
14:10:05 [john-l]: ... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki.
14:10:22 [ericP]: i implemented unsaid in algae2
14:10:32 [SteveH]: q- chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think
14:10:36 [john-l]: ... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries.
14:10:41 [ericP]: (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc)
14:10:43 [LeeF]: ack steveh
14:10:43 [Zakim]: SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK
14:11:40 [iv_an_ru]: UNSAID become a binary operator right?
14:11:53 [iv_an_ru]: {A} UNSAID {B}
14:11:53 [john-l]: LeeF: Are there other implementations of Negation out there?
14:12:04 [Souri]: Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ...
14:12:07 [ivan]: ack ivan
14:12:07 [AndyS]: iv_an_ru: It didn't work like that
14:12:10 [LeeF]: q+ Orri
14:12:29 [ericP]: q+ i do
14:12:32 [john-l]: ivan: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group?
14:12:33 [chimezie]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid
14:12:34 [SteveH]: IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns
14:12:44 [AndyS]: q+
14:12:56 [john-l]: LeeF: There may have been an open world/closed world concern.
14:13:01 [LeeF]: ack AndyS
14:13:09 [ericP]: q- i
14:13:11 [ericP]: q- do
14:13:13 [LeeF]: q- i
14:13:18 [LeeF]: q- do
14:13:19 [john-l]: AndyS: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex.
14:13:28 [chimezie]: Zakim, who is here?
14:13:28 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri
14:13:31 [Zakim]: On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
14:14:04 [ivan]: ack LeeF
14:14:04 [Zakim]: LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons
14:14:22 [Zakim]: +DaveNewman
14:14:26 [john-l]: LeeF: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation.
14:14:50 [AndyS]: Another use case: data validation
14:14:54 [LeeF]: ack Orri
14:14:55 [john-l]: ... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible.
14:15:00 [ericP]: q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach
14:15:28 [LeeF]: ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound
14:15:30 [john-l]: Souri: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people.
14:15:37 [LeeF]: s/Souri/Orri
14:15:45 [SteveH]: ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think
14:16:08 [Souri]: q+
14:16:13 [john-l]: ... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts.
14:16:16 [ericP]: SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street
14:16:29 [kjetil]: Zakim, what is the code?
14:16:29 [Zakim]: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
14:16:32 [SteveH]: ericP, the average joe SPARQL user?
14:16:38 [ericP]: there is none
14:16:53 [ericP]: q-
14:16:53 [Souri]: One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names!
14:16:54 [Zakim]: + +2
14:17:06 [kjetil]: Zakim, mute me
14:17:06 [Zakim]: sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:17:24 [LeeF]: zakim, +2 is kjetil
14:17:24 [Zakim]: +kjetil; got it
14:17:24 [kjetil]: Zakim, +2 is me
14:17:25 [Zakim]: sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2'
14:17:26 [kjetil]: Zakim, mute me
14:17:26 [Zakim]: kjetil should now be muted
14:17:30 [LeeF]: q?
14:17:31 [dnewman2]: dnewman2 has joined #sparql
14:17:38 [LeeF]: ack Souri
14:18:18 [john-l]: Souri: I approve this feature. We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible.
14:18:57 [john-l]: LeeF: Time for a straw poll on negation!
14:19:14 [Souri]: +1
14:19:15 [john-l]: +1
14:19:16 [SteveH]: +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
14:19:16 [kjetil]: +0
14:19:17 [LukeWM]: 0
14:19:26 [chimezie]: +1
14:19:26 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
14:19:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted)
14:19:29 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:19:31 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, ericP
14:19:36 [ivan]: +1
14:19:37 [AndyS]: +1
14:19:39 [ericP]: 0
14:19:40 [dnewman2]: +1
14:19:44 [SimonS]: +1
14:19:46 [iv_an_ru]: 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
14:19:52 [ywang4]: +1
14:20:05 [LeeF]: Orri: +1
14:20:16 [LeeF]: LeeF: 0
14:20:43 [LeeF]: topic: Property Paths
14:20:47 [john-l]: LeeF: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths.
14:20:49 [AndyS]: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ
14:21:28 [john-l]: AndyS: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators.
14:21:42 [kasei]: kasei has joined #sparql
14:21:45 [john-l]: ... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases.
14:21:56 [Souri]: Souri has joined #sparql
14:22:51 [john-l]: ... This does not introduce a new datatype.
14:22:58 [john-l]: ... It provides a set of results.
14:23:10 [SteveH]: q+
14:23:14 [john-l]: ... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is.
14:23:45 [LeeF]: -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info
14:23:55 [chimezie]: +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment
14:24:04 [chimezie]: +q
14:24:17 [john-l]: ???: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference.
14:24:28 [john-l]: s/???/Orri/
14:24:32 [Zakim]: + +1.310.729.aacc
14:24:36 [kasei]: Zakim aacc is me
14:24:54 [LeeF]: zakim, aacc is kasei
14:24:54 [Zakim]: +kasei; got it
14:25:00 [kasei]: Zakim mute me
14:25:03 [john-l]: SteveH: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set?
14:25:26 [john-l]: AndyS: ... describes how the variable binding works.
14:25:46 [kasei]: Zakim, mute me
14:25:46 [Zakim]: kasei should now be muted
14:25:51 [kasei]: thanks Lee
14:26:29 [LeeF]: q?
14:26:29 [iv_an_ru]: I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries.
14:26:34 [LeeF]: ack SteveH
14:26:34 [ivan]: ack SteveH
14:26:42 [LeeF]: ack chimezie
14:26:48 [dnewman2]: q+
14:27:17 [john-l]: chimezie: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment?
14:27:41 [john-l]: AndyS: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism.
14:28:10 [LeeF]: ack dnewman2
14:28:12 [john-l]: ... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions.
14:28:53 [john-l]: dnewman2: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence?
14:29:02 [Zakim]: + +2
14:29:04 [iv_an_ru]: For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path.
14:29:22 [LeeF]: zakim, +2 is AlexPassant
14:29:22 [Zakim]: +AlexPassant; got it
14:30:00 [john-l]: ... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis.
14:30:31 [john-l]: ... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D.
14:30:53 [john-l]: AndyS: A reasoner would help you out there.
14:31:07 [john-l]: dnewman2: But I won't get the results in path order.
14:32:23 [john-l]: LeeF: Use the mailing list!
14:32:40 [john-l]: Orri: I've answered this on the mailing list.
14:33:51 [john-l]: LeeF: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists).
14:33:55 [LeeF]: q?
14:33:58 [LeeF]: ack dnewman2
14:34:00 [AlexPassant]: q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering
14:34:02 [LeeF]: ack dnewman
14:34:10 [LeeF]: ack AlexPassant
14:34:10 [Zakim]: AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering
14:34:16 [dnewman2]: q-
14:35:03 [john-l]: AlexPassant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference?
14:35:11 [john-l]: LeeF: Use the mailing list!
14:35:38 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
14:35:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:35:40 [ivan]: -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter...
14:35:40 [SteveH]: -1
14:35:41 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:35:42 [john-l]: LeeF: Time for a straw poll about property paths.
14:35:42 [dnewman2]: +1
14:35:43 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, ericP
14:35:45 [john-l]: -0
14:35:47 [kjetil]: +1
14:35:48 [AlexPassant]: +1
14:35:50 [kasei]: +1
14:35:50 [chimezie]: 0
14:35:58 [LukeWM]: +1
14:36:06 [SimonS]: +1
14:36:07 [AndyS]: +1
14:36:07 [iv_an_ru]: +1
14:36:13 [ericP]: -1
14:36:20 [Souri]: +1 but in simple form only
14:36:26 [LeeF]: Orri: +1
14:36:34 [ywang4]: +1
14:36:45 [ericP]: what about ±0 ?
14:36:53 [LeeF]: LeeF: 0
14:37:02 [Souri]: What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc.
14:37:27 [john-l]: LeeF: Next up, path lengths.
14:37:27 [SteveH]: URI?
14:37:40 [LeeF]: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength
14:37:43 [iv_an_ru]: Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :)
14:38:18 [Souri]: Souri has joined #sparql
14:38:34 [john-l]: AlexPassant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources.
14:38:55 [john-l]: ... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others.
14:39:08 [AlexPassant]: http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php
14:39:09 [john-l]: ... Implementation links should be on the Wiki.
14:39:27 [john-l]: LeeF: Any other implementations?
14:39:49 [john-l]: ???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery.
14:39:54 [john-l]: s/???/Orri/
14:39:55 [LeeF]: q?
14:39:59 [iv_an_ru]: s/???/Orri
14:40:50 [LeeF]: The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path
14:41:04 [Souri]: q+
14:41:16 [LeeF]: ack Souri
14:41:17 [iv_an_ru]: I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging
14:42:18 [AlexPassant]: fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature
14:42:18 [john-l]: Souri: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples.
14:42:44 [chimezie]: We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc..
14:42:49 [SteveH]: it introduces binding ?vars
14:42:53 [SteveH]: in FILTERs
14:43:03 [ericP]: i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation
14:43:22 [AndyS]: SteveH - where abouts?
14:43:26 [LeeF]: q?
14:43:50 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
14:43:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:43:51 [SteveH]: AndyS, ah, no, I misread
14:43:54 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:43:54 [john-l]: LeeF: Time for a straw poll!
14:43:54 [SteveH]: -1
14:43:55 [chimezie]: -1
14:43:55 [ericP]: -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope)
14:43:55 [ivan]: -1
14:43:56 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, ericP
14:43:56 [LukeWM]: -1
14:43:56 [Souri]: -1
14:43:57 [john-l]: -0
14:43:57 [kasei]: -1
14:43:57 [AndyS]: -1 to introducing a new datatype
14:43:57 [AlexPassant]: +1
14:44:00 [dnewman2]: ericP: 0
14:44:01 [iv_an_ru]: -1
14:44:02 [kjetil]: 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise
14:44:02 [SimonS]: 0
14:44:18 [LeeF]: -1
14:44:37 [LeeF]: Orri: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus)
14:44:49 [ywang4]: 0
14:45:01 [ywang4]: sorry the line was not clear enough..
14:45:35 [LeeF]: topic: Aggregates
14:45:37 [LeeF]: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions
14:45:37 [john-l]: LeeF: Next up: aggregates.
14:46:02 [john-l]: ... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together. This is common in SQL.
14:46:11 [john-l]: ... Either one big group or subgroups.
14:46:56 [Souri]: +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1
14:47:10 [john-l]: ... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL.
14:47:30 [john-l]: ... Several implementations listed on the Wiki.
14:47:43 [john-l]: ... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience.
14:48:39 [john-l]: SteveH: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted.
14:49:04 [ericP]: emphatically, we are a graph language
14:49:08 [john-l]: LeeF: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs?
14:49:13 [LeeF]: q?
14:49:16 [iv_an_ru]: IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;)
14:49:33 [Souri]: +q
14:49:44 [john-l]: Orri: Aggregates are a must-have.
14:50:03 [kasei]: +q to ask about numeric types and agregates
14:50:18 [john-l]: ... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs.
14:50:19 [LeeF]: ack Souri
14:50:48 [chimezie]: +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
14:50:50 [kasei]: Zakim, unmute me
14:50:55 [Zakim]: kasei should no longer be muted
14:50:56 [LeeF]: ack kasei
14:50:57 [iv_an_ru]: There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often.
14:50:59 [Zakim]: kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates
14:51:22 [AndyS]: q+ to reply to Greg
14:51:31 [Souri]: How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY?
14:51:34 [john-l]: kasei: How do you deal with datatype mismatch?
14:51:52 [LeeF]: ack AndyS
14:51:52 [Zakim]: AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg
14:52:02 [john-l]: Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers.
14:52:30 [kasei]: Zakim, mute me
14:52:30 [Zakim]: kasei should now be muted
14:52:35 [LeeF]: ack chimezie
14:52:35 [Zakim]: chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
14:52:45 [iv_an_ru]: more general
14:52:46 [SteveH]: max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible
14:53:38 [john-l]: LeeF: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions.
14:53:43 [LeeF]: q?
14:54:15 [john-l]: LeeF: Any substantial concerns about aggregates?
14:54:39 [SteveH]: it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world
14:54:41 [john-l]: chimezie: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis.
14:54:50 [SteveH]: and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL
14:55:04 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
14:55:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:55:04 [kasei]: +1
14:55:06 [chimezie]: +1
14:55:07 [ericP]: 0
14:55:07 [LukeWM]: +1
14:55:07 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:55:08 [SteveH]: +1
14:55:08 [AndyS]: +1
14:55:08 [john-l]: LeeF: Straw poll time!
14:55:09 [ywang4]: +1
14:55:09 [iv_an_ru]: +1
14:55:09 [ivan]: +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues
14:55:09 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, ericP
14:55:09 [kjetil]: +1
14:55:10 [dnewman2]: +1
14:55:12 [john-l]: +1
14:55:15 [SimonS]: +1 think this is essential
14:55:15 [LeeF]: +1
14:55:18 [Souri]: +1
14:55:20 [AlexPassant]: +1
14:55:24 [LeeF]: Orri: +1
14:55:48 [iv_an_ru]: I'd cheat and place one more +1
14:56:28 [john-l]: LeeF: Talk about UPDATE?
14:56:28 [iv_an_ru]: +1 for update
14:56:28 [SteveH]: q+
14:56:32 [ywang4]: +1
14:56:47 [ivan]: ack SteveH
14:56:48 [LeeF]: ack SteveH
14:56:57 [ericP]: what's wrong with yesterda?
14:57:00 [ericP]: y
14:57:03 [john-l]: SteveH: We want this... tomorrow.
14:57:21 [ywang4]: update is essential anyway
14:57:30 [SteveH]: but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that)
14:57:43 [john-l]: LeeF: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations.
14:57:50 [AndyS]: +1 to separate
14:57:53 [john-l]: ... There exists a draft specification for this.
14:57:57 [SteveH]: we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend
14:57:59 [AndyS]: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/
14:58:14 [john-l]: ... This can exist in a separate recommendation.
14:58:48 [ivan]: q+
14:58:53 [LeeF]: ack ivan
14:59:05 [SteveH]: q+ to answer
14:59:09 [john-l]: ivan: Would this be a separate recommendation?
14:59:27 [kjetil]: q+
14:59:31 [john-l]: SteveH: I want to see it as a separate *language*.
14:59:43 [iv_an_ru]: It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language.
15:00:06 [john-l]: ... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language.
15:00:31 [chimezie]: +q
15:00:38 [AndyS]: (that was Andy - sorry)
15:00:39 [LeeF]: ack SteveH
15:00:39 [Zakim]: SteveH, you wanted to answer
15:00:40 [john-l]: ... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL.
15:01:01 [LeeF]: ack kjetil
15:01:01 [ivan]: q+
15:01:05 [Souri]: I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec.
15:01:05 [ericP]: motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query
15:01:34 [john-l]: kjetil: I support separating out the two components.
15:01:39 [ericP]: i'm not sure how the grammar will work
15:01:52 [LeeF]: q?
15:01:53 [LeeF]: ack chimezie
15:01:54 [kjetil]: Zakim, mute me
15:01:54 [Zakim]: kjetil should now be muted
15:02:05 [iv_an_ru]: ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :)
15:02:06 [ericP]: LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update
15:02:23 [john-l]: chimezie: Updates could go to the protocol level.
15:02:39 [LeeF]: ack ivan
15:02:39 [john-l]: ... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification.
15:02:39 [SteveH]: +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that
15:02:57 [ywang4]: +1 again
15:02:58 [Zakim]: -EricP
15:03:07 [ywang4]: and gotta to leave, thanks guys
15:03:08 [AndyS]: EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l
15:03:43 [SimonS]: I have to leave. My oppinion is:
15:03:43 [kasei]: service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components
15:03:47 [SimonS]: -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it.
15:03:55 [chimezie]: i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language
15:04:22 [LeeF]: zakim, who's here?
15:04:24 [LukeWM]: +1
15:04:26 [john-l]: LeeF: Final straw poll!
15:04:29 [AndyS]: Security matters a lot here IMHO
15:04:33 [SteveH]: +1
15:04:35 [ivan]: +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare
15:04:36 [kasei]: +1
15:04:36 [kjetil]: +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it)
15:04:37 [john-l]: +0
15:04:45 [SimonS]: SimonS has left #sparql
15:04:49 [Souri]: -1, if separated +1
15:04:50 [chimezie]: -1 (in its current form)
15:04:55 [SteveH]: +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction]
15:04:58 [Zakim]: -SSchenk1
15:05:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, Ivan, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
15:05:07 [LeeF]: Orri: +1 (security might be implementation-specific)
15:05:12 [AlexPassant]: +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc
15:05:15 [dnewman2]: +1
15:05:19 [LeeF]: 0
15:05:28 [AndyS]: +1 and pref seperate spec
15:05:34 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivan, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot,
15:05:39 [Zakim]: ... ericP
15:06:19 [LeeF]: Thanks very much to john-l for scribing!
15:06:25 [Zakim]: -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:06:27 [Zakim]: -DaveNewman
15:06:29 [Zakim]: -Orri
15:06:31 [Zakim]: -ywang4
15:06:32 [LeeF]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
15:06:33 [Zakim]: -Souri
15:06:35 [Zakim]: -[Garlik]
15:06:36 [LeeF]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:06:39 [Zakim]: -LeeF
15:06:41 [Zakim]: -kjetil
15:06:42 [john-l]: LeeF: Do you need me to do anything else?
15:06:43 [Zakim]: -iv_an_ru
15:06:45 [Zakim]: -Ivan
15:06:47 [Zakim]: -AlexPassant
15:06:47 [LeeF]: john-l, nope I'll take it from here
15:06:52 [john-l]: LeeF: Cool, thanks!
15:06:59 [Zakim]: -kasei
15:07:01 [Zakim]: -john-l
15:07:09 [Zakim]: -AndyS
15:07:13 [Zakim]: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:07:15 [Zakim]: Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, Ivan, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei,
15:07:18 [Zakim]: ... AlexPassant
15:08:13 [kasei]: kasei has left #sparql
15:10:54 [SteveH_]: SteveH_ has joined #sparql
15:11:03 [LukeWM_]: LukeWM_ has joined #sparql
15:15:16 [LeeF]: thanks, everyone - thought this was a great call today
15:20:32 [SteveH_]: yes, it was, nice job Lee
15:23:10 [ivan]: LeeF++
15:47:00 [LeeF]: Sorry, Ivan, I'm immutable
16:57:01 [ericP]: nice
16:57:23 [ericP]: const LeeF?
16:58:09 [SteveH_]: static const LeeF maybe
16:58:23 [SteveH_]: but I'm thinking Lee is pure functional, so that's implied
17:29:59 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #sparql
17:35:08 [LeeF]: damn skippy i am
17:35:29 [LeeF]: i'm also lazy-evaluated, with an emphasis on *lazy*
17:36:15 [kjetil]: actually, I suspect ivan just got the wrong syntax, $LeeF++ would have worked ;-)