14:51:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
14:51:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-irc
14:51:14 <wiecha> rrsagent, make logs public
14:51:26 <wiecha> Meeting: RWAB Weekly telecon
14:51:30 <wiecha> Chair: Charlie Wiecha
14:51:59 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0005.html
14:52:36 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #backplane
14:53:31 <oedipus> were you able to obtain the opera XHTML+Voice plugin?
14:53:40 <wiecha> was reading about it this morning, yes
14:54:13 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #backplane
14:55:02 <Steven> Steven has joined #backplane
14:55:31 <wiecha> Regrets: John
14:56:10 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:56:16 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
14:56:21 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
14:56:25 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:56:28 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:56:34 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
14:56:40 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
14:58:03 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:01:14 <unl> unl has joined #backplane
15:01:46 <Zakim> +unl
15:02:27 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, unl
15:03:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, wiecha
15:03:26 <oedipus> TOPIC: Preliminaries, Announcements, News
15:03:51 <oedipus> CW: Steven will be joining when meeting currently in finished; hoped to have jack here for discussion
15:04:42 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:05:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:05:22 <Zakim> +Steven
15:06:23 <oedipus> SP: going to ping john to see if can join
15:06:35 <oedipus> s/john/jack
15:07:01 <oedipus> CW: have to leave 5 minutes early
15:07:29 <oedipus> for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0004.html
15:07:42 <oedipus> for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/att-0004/scenario.html
15:07:59 <oedipus> CW: Steven we need to discuss logistics for upcoming meetings
15:08:16 <oedipus> SP: no info about format of panel - don't exactly know plans
15:08:34 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
15:08:43 <jackjansen> zakim, code?
15:08:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jackjansen
15:08:58 <oedipus> CW: having a dedicated mike gives you an advantage!
15:09:19 <Zakim> +jackjansen
15:09:32 <oedipus> SP: DAISY paying for travel expenses; a lot of ground to cover; DAISY become very involved in push to new XHTML2 draft
15:09:44 <oedipus> CW: if want to speak with john and me, can set it up
15:10:22 <oedipus> SP: don't anticipate any problems -- want to foster question and answers
15:10:46 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:10:46 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:10:48 <oedipus> CW: as chair, need to present view of XG - that's why what we've been discussing lately
15:11:14 <oedipus> CW: AC meeting next week - monday future of the web (Xtechnologies versus HTML)
15:11:28 <oedipus> CW: mixing and matching technologies into Rich Web App programming model
15:11:52 <oedipus> CW: details of prototype - SMIL, XForms, SVG, ODF - ubiquity platform way to get to clients
15:12:12 <unl> zakim, unmute me
15:12:12 <Zakim> unl should no longer be muted
15:12:14 <oedipus> JJ: trust CW and SP to represent views on the matter
15:13:17 <oedipus> Uli: 2 key points - web is not defined by browser; distributed extensibility - clumsy in HTML, get for free in XHTML/XML core with namespaces -- basis for mixing dialects; HTML with special SVG and MathML handling not practical solution
15:14:03 <oedipus> CW: RDFa clean example of extensibility
15:14:55 <oedipus> GJR: ARIA, too - HTML WG wants to swallow and hard-wire ARIA or sub-set of ARIA - not good, needs to be namespace reference so PF/WAI can keep ARIA updated - ARIA 2 wish list already very large
15:15:06 <oedipus> SP: attributes don't get removed from DOM; not sure about elements
15:15:15 <oedipus> CW: using ubiquity using a lot of elements
15:15:47 <oedipus> SP: messy extension mechanism - basis of browser wars: proprietary elements and interpretations
15:16:07 <oedipus> SP: ended up with tag soup and tag synonomic syndrome
15:16:27 <oedipus> CW: Sam Ruby's response good; distributed accessibility as Uli described
15:16:29 <jackjansen> synonomic???
15:16:48 <oedipus> TOPIC: Reports
15:16:55 <oedipus> CW: new implementations?
15:17:11 <oedipus> JJ: been very busy with tool application paper and thesis
15:18:00 <oedipus> CW: been implementing rich text control in ubiquity - allows inline editor to use markup to be captured in data section of XForms - best for boilerplate forms use
15:18:52 <oedipus> TOPIC: collaborative financial planning scenario demo
15:19:06 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/att-0004/scenario.html
15:19:21 <oedipus> cover emessage: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0004.html
15:19:44 <oedipus> CW: proposed list of features we could explore in the
15:19:44 <oedipus> financial planning Backplane applicatio
15:19:58 <oedipus> CW: UI aspects need to be discussed
15:20:08 <jackjansen> q+
15:20:24 <oedipus> CW: continue to be excited about rich set of visualizations, wiring techs together, SMIL and/or SCXML
15:20:36 <oedipus> CW: were do we want to jump in and start work
15:20:45 <oedipus> TOPIC: SVG and Ubiquity
15:21:15 <oedipus> CW: mark birbeck keen on SVG for browser controls; been checking support for SVG - support in Safari, WebKit, and FF
15:22:25 <oedipus> CW: have earlier demos from emerging technologies group wired into U.S. tax form - have some javascript can steal from there to construct SVG element as result of data mining mode set - bind to data model and extract node sets from repeat, pass on to SVG generator (ubiquity custom control) to produce pie chart for data model
15:23:01 <oedipus> GJR: it would be a very good test of SVG interacting with ARIA and the XHTML Access Module
15:24:31 <oedipus> GJR: ARIA to augment DESC and TITLE in SVG and Access Module to provide tab navigation
15:24:45 <oedipus> JJ: buzzwords for SMIL in ARIA - 
15:25:06 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria
15:25:16 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:25:16 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:25:28 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG
15:26:01 <oedipus> JJ: returning to question: scenario document - would like to take step back -  if do this demo, what are the reasons we are doing it?
15:26:25 <oedipus> JJ: a lot on integration side, but miss why doing in web app and not in C++ as stand-alone app
15:26:52 <oedipus> JJ: in "requirements" there are some that apply to networks - should perhaps have section on why do with web app instead of stand-alone app
15:27:02 <jackjansen> q-
15:27:06 <oedipus> CW: what are the backplane technologies is included
15:27:23 <oedipus> CW: illustrate patterns; nothing in scenario on network access per se
15:27:33 <oedipus> CW: could say all web technology good for apps
15:27:45 <oedipus> GJR: foundation of standardization, ease of use, consistency
15:28:06 <oedipus> JJ: platform independence in the web space - gives one access to tremendous resources; should spell out
15:28:14 <oedipus> CW: should do where discuss data feeds
15:28:31 <oedipus> JJ: at top say "joining a financial circle" - some social networking involved
15:28:39 <oedipus> CW: OpenSocial discussions
15:29:10 <oedipus> q+ to say working on ARIA and XHTML Role enabled OpenSocial implementation (virtual visually impaired computer users group)
15:29:14 <oedipus> ack me
15:29:14 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say working on ARIA and XHTML Role enabled OpenSocial implementation (virtual visually impaired computer users group)
15:30:08 <oedipus> GJR: describes OpenSocail VICUG initiative
15:30:45 <oedipus> CW: built xforms front end for shindig - simple back end to shindig - model relationships - use jump start for configuration of the app
15:30:53 <oedipus> CW: this could be filled in later
15:31:15 <oedipus> GJR: if you build something from the inside out, you'll have no difficulty penetrating from the outside in
15:31:32 <oedipus> CW: SVG navigation through pie chart - not accessible example
15:33:09 <oedipus> GJR: 2 points: 1 is the SVG itself should be WCAG compliant, without question because it helps general usability as well as accessibility; the second important point is: strategies for repurposing data before it gets to SVG - in other words, mulitple means of compiling and rendering the data setshould be repurposed for those who
15:34:05 <oedipus> GJR: tools that SVG offers natively - DESC and TITLE; 
15:34:49 <oedipus> CW: roles attached to SVG element auto-generated
15:35:25 <oedipus> GJR: i need to find out more about the auto-generation process so i can not only advise on SVG accessibility, but can work on a mechanism for repurposing the data set
15:35:40 <oedipus> CW: will post to the email list - or, better, use the wiki
15:35:53 <oedipus> CW: will post script code for you to investigate
15:35:59 <oedipus> GJR: that would be great
15:36:32 <oedipus> CW: similar approach to mapping -- wrapping in ubiquity framework
15:36:46 <oedipus> SP: not able to take on more work right now
15:37:02 <oedipus> SP: hoping to get his code, but can't
15:37:28 <oedipus> s/the data setshould be repurposed for those who/the data sets
15:38:03 <oedipus> SP: in ubiquity, uses class to turn control into google map at latitude and longitude given; solved use case, but doesn't demonstrate power of mechanism to create class from scratch
15:38:09 <oedipus> JJ: pointer, please?
15:38:32 <Steven> http://svn.webbackplane.com/svn/public/presentations/2008-12-08-mb-xml-2008-ubiquity-xforms/index.html#(52)
15:39:34 <oedipus> SP: class is "geolocation" - have range bound to object with 2 numbers (lat. and long.) but class="geolocation" on that and turns into google map; if drag, will move latitude and longitude
15:39:38 <oedipus> SP: was working last week
15:39:45 <oedipus> Uli: doesn't work in Safari
15:39:57 <oedipus> SP: demoed at mozilla conference using FireFox and Opera
15:41:34 <oedipus> JJ:  can't type into location field
15:41:48 <oedipus> SP: slides load 2 javascript libraries - one for slides, the other for ubiquity
15:41:59 <oedipus> SP: if type a "k" turns off key handling on slider
15:42:24 <oedipus> CW: at top is source file for page
15:42:35 <oedipus> CW: changes directory with exchanges working on
15:43:39 <oedipus> GJR: works ok as far as i can tell with speech
15:44:14 <oedipus> CW: will follow up on picking up coding within RWAB - already checked into ubiquity repository and need to test on newer versions
15:45:31 <oedipus> SP: had sidewinder browser - whole directory of great examples; when updated, erased google maps example; did google maps only in XForms; if have control that is lattitude and longitude, updated control with views of map using tiles as google maps does, but doesn't matter where tiles come from - selection of world map titles to choose from - very simple expression in a bind
15:45:58 <oedipus> SP: could select different mapping services with surprisingly little code - about 25k of xforms and extra stuff
15:46:10 <oedipus> CW: different javascript for each mapping service?
15:46:28 <oedipus> SP: mapping services deliver tiles as URLs indicating which tile you are using;
15:46:41 <oedipus> SP: using XBL was able to map onto entire mapping experience
15:47:11 <oedipus> CW: 2 use cases: 1 is hiding deep script the other is binding on back end bindings and communicating them over the wire
15:47:16 <oedipus> CW: both valid
15:47:38 <oedipus> CW: SMIL?
15:47:51 <oedipus> JJ: using SMIL as control language is area of interest
15:47:57 <oedipus> GJR: would that be with SCXML?
15:48:26 <oedipus> CW: SMIL alongside other objects/elements; SMIL as external controller versus running as internal application
15:49:12 <oedipus> JJ: XHTML+SMIL (MS spec) - also work on timesheets - small constructs - what stylesheets do for style timesheets does for applying timing
15:49:27 <oedipus> CW: SMIL block control rest of page or doing own thing internally
15:49:50 <oedipus> JJ: need to determine event model; even as control language, don't see how many things there are that need control in financial app
15:50:10 <oedipus> CW: wrestled with that; auto-log-out after inactivity, etc.
15:50:22 <oedipus> CW: wizard-style navigation - controlled sequence of tabs in a wizard
15:50:23 <oedipus> JJ: yes
15:50:39 <oedipus> CW: could you post about these things?
15:51:12 <oedipus> JJ: XHTML+SMIL - http://www.w3.org/TR/XHTMLplusSMIL/
15:51:48 <oedipus> JJ: timesheets [scribe will add link]
15:52:04 <oedipus> JJ: relevance another way to allow SMIL timing to interact with XHTML or HTML documents
15:52:34 <oedipus> CW: GJR mentioned opera's XHTML+Voice plugin - should investigate overlap
15:52:42 <oedipus> TOPIC: Follow Up
15:52:57 <oedipus> CW: will post script code to wiki; JJ will post on SMIL patterns
15:53:05 <oedipus> JJ: won't be done by next week
15:53:14 <oedipus> CW: should cancell next week because of AC meeting
15:53:31 <Zakim> -wiecha
15:53:32 <Zakim> -unl
15:53:32 <Zakim> -Steven
15:53:33 <Zakim> -jackjansen
15:53:33 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
15:53:34 <Zakim> Attendees were wiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, unl, Steven, jackjansen
15:53:44 <oedipus> CW: next RWAB XG call will be held in TWO weeks - 31 march 2009
15:53:50 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:53:56 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:53:56 <Zakim> apparently INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended, oedipus
15:53:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see jackjansen, unl, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, wiecha
15:54:05 <oedipus> zakim, please part
15:54:05 <Zakim> Zakim has left #backplane
15:54:11 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:54:15 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log
15:54:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:54:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
15:55:28 <oedipus> Integrating SMIL timing into XHTML (slide show) http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-smil20/slide24-0.html
15:55:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:55:37 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
15:57:06 <oedipus> Timesheets: XML Timing Language - http://www.w3.org/Submission/xml-timing/
15:57:24 <oedipus> SMIL Timesheets 1.0 - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-timesheets-20080110/
15:58:24 <oedipus> web apps cdf paper delivered in helsinki in 2004 about Timesheets: http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/helsinki.html
15:58:30 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:58:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
15:59:44 <oedipus> FWIW, GJR reviewed timesheets for the PFWG - findings ultra-positive, as logged by then-chair al gilman: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-smil/2008JanMar/0017.html
16:02:14 <oedipus> Timesheets - UA Capability Detection thread: 
16:02:14 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-smil/2008AprJun/thread.html#msg0
16:02:21 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:02:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log
16:02:26 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:02:30 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:04:09 <oedipus> s/[scribe will add links]/[scribe's note: pertinent links for timesheets info is included at the tail end of the minutes]/
16:04:14 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:04:49 <oedipus> s/scribe will add links/scribe's note: pertinent links for timesheets info is included at the tail end of the minutes/
16:04:51 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:04:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:06:18 <oedipus> s/scribe will add links/scribe's note: pertinent links for timesheets info is included at the tail end of the minutes
16:06:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:06:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop