12:52:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
12:52:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-irc
12:53:06 <josema> zakim, this will be egov
12:53:06 <Zakim> ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:01:13 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM has now started
13:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.202.236.aaaa
13:01:26 <Owen> Owen has joined #egov
13:02:16 <Zakim> +??P13
13:08:41 <OAmbur> OAmbur has joined #egov
13:12:06 <josema> trackbot, start telcon
13:12:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:12:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
13:12:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM already started
13:12:11 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
13:12:11 <trackbot> Date: 13 March 2009
13:15:02 <Zakim> +rachel
13:16:08 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
13:22:54 <Zakim> -rachel
13:23:06 <Zakim> +AIA
13:31:05 <josema> [meeting starting]
13:31:21 <josema> chair: kevin, john
13:32:58 <Karen> Karen has joined #egov
13:33:10 <Karen> Kevin welcomes and recaps agenda for today
13:33:28 <Karen> Jose Alonso opens discussion on Multi-channel delivery
13:34:06 <Karen> Governments are starting to think about mobile access to government services
13:34:20 <Karen> Challenges around integrating all these different systems
13:34:29 <Karen> from home computer or mobile device
13:34:38 <Karen> a number of different interfaces that people use
13:34:49 <Karen> ...voice interface, Web interface, etc.
13:35:01 <Karen> ...every different way of delivery of info has its own challenges
13:35:15 <Karen> ...if you start using eGov services using a given channel
13:35:21 <Karen> ...and then you lose connection
13:35:35 <Karen> ...the information you already entered should be stored in the sytem somewhere
13:35:48 <Karen> ...there are a lot of pieces for this topic
13:35:54 <Karen> ...front end is about mobile phones
13:36:05 <Karen> ...W3C has a Mobile Web Initiative that has been developing best practices
13:36:13 <Karen> ...to deveop applications for mobile phones
13:36:41 <Karen> ...on back end, many activities in XML, Semantic Web, data integration
13:36:43 <Zakim> +rachel
13:36:45 <Karen> ...so that's my personal view
13:37:31 <Karen> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/MWBP-WG-charter.html
13:38:10 <Karen> Chris Jerdonek, Granicus: you also want to consider bandwidth differences
13:38:25 <Karen> Kevin: also want to mention mobile devices in developing countries
13:38:44 <Karen> Oleg Petrov, World Bank: mobile Web is an important topic
13:38:54 <Karen> ...I worked on infrastructure development in Russia
13:39:05 <Karen> ...at World Bank we haven't done work on mobile yet
13:39:15 <Karen> ...have organized some events
13:39:30 <Karen> ...we are looking at events in specific countries around topics like health
13:39:39 <Karen> ...a month ago, this topic was emphasized
13:39:48 <Karen> ...we are being pushed to explore different applications
13:40:09 <Karen> ...single window centers like Canada
13:40:24 <Karen> ...we should not just focus on mobile for mult-channel
13:40:31 <Karen> ...although mobile is most powerful and recent
13:40:38 <Karen> ...in Spain there was a seminar
13:40:45 <John> John has joined #egov
13:40:45 <Karen> ...mobile is the latest 'baby
13:40:49 <Karen> in the tool ki
13:40:53 <Karen> s/kit
13:41:05 <Karen> ...not forget others, but mobile does require a special focus
13:41:12 <Karen> ...it will need funding as well as focus
13:41:24 <heatherwest> heatherwest has joined #egov
13:41:27 <Karen> ...Mobile Health Alliance joint event on mobile health, maybe in Spet.
13:41:32 <Karen> s/September
13:41:49 <Karen> ...we have to do more work; welcome W3C partnership on multi-channel delivery topic
13:41:55 <Karen> Kevin: thanks for summary
13:42:09 <Karen> ...I agree there are multi-channels and multiple opportunities for access
13:42:20 <Karen> ...mobile is taking highest position in people's conversations
13:42:30 <Karen> ...outside US, that's the main interface point for consumers
13:42:34 <Karen> ...interesting challenge 
13:42:43 <Karen> ...I was working with Telecom Italia and Vodafone
13:42:53 <Karen> ...one of biggest challenges is the competitive space
13:43:06 <Karen> ...browser and device independence not as high on their lists
13:43:17 <Karen> ...need to content with commercial interests to sell their devices
13:43:29 <Karen> Jose: We run workshops at W3C
13:43:47 <Karen> ...we started group on Mobile Web for Social Development
13:44:01 <Karen> ...they are finding issues about how to develop applications for those countries
13:44:18 <Karen> ...the interfaces from developed world don't often work in developing world
13:44:27 <Karen> ...the most important services in those countries are public services
13:44:42 <Karen> ...some of unsolved challenges are that we have not yet identified what those services are
13:44:47 <Karen> ...the ones to provide the most value
13:45:00 <Karen> ...there are things like microfinancing that's important
13:45:06 <Karen> ...this other group is doing this right now
13:45:20 <Karen> ...another channel in Europe is DBWB
13:46:04 <Karen> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/MW4D_WS/
13:46:13 <Karen> ...Digital TV requirements
13:46:26 <Karen> ...but it's not interactive
13:46:35 <Karen> ...in the TV boxes for their homes
13:46:45 <Karen> ...when there is interaction, the interfaces are very poor
13:46:55 <Karen> ...not a lot of things you can do
13:47:11 <Karen> ...so it's another channel to consider; W3C is not doing anything here at the moment
13:47:33 <Karen> ...In South America, in Paraguay, there is very little Internet connectivity except through mobile
13:47:41 <Karen> ...so how global a view should we have
13:48:17 <Karen> Chris Testa, Holocost Museum: I would encourage this group to take global perspective
13:48:36 <Karen> ...we are interested in sharing data across int'l and cultural boundaries
13:48:43 <Karen> ...would be applicability in Federal gov't
13:48:58 <Karen> q+
13:49:39 <Karen> ack Karen
13:50:11 <Karen> Karen: In a conversation with State Dept rep yesterday, I learned of her interest in international communications
13:50:29 <Karen> Jose: do we agree to include this in the issues paper?
13:50:42 <Karen> Kevin: perhaps in the multi-channel section
13:50:50 <Karen> ...we talk about focus on mobile first
13:51:52 <Karen> Ken: closed captioning is also of concern to gov't
13:51:56 <Karen> ...big on video
13:52:06 <Karen> ...so this is another area related to multi-media
13:52:15 <Karen> Jose: there are some other groups at W3C working on this
13:52:24 <Karen> ...we could put something there and build a connection with this group
13:52:44 <Karen> Kevin: 508 requires anything that cannot be classified can be grandfathered in
13:52:51 <Karen> ...it's a huge issue and a cost issue
13:52:58 <Karen> ...lack of specs for user presentation of things
13:53:05 <Karen> ...affects policies and funding in agencies
13:53:28 <Karen> Suzanne Acar, FBI: big legacy environment, not designed
13:53:44 <Karen> Ken: if gov't uses YouTube, are they selecting one company over another
13:53:54 <Karen> ...is there a standard way to have a repository
13:54:04 <Karen> ...a big issue in terms of gov't use of social media
13:54:15 <Karen> ...for example, here's a list of videos in a standard format
13:54:28 <Karen> John Sheridan: from UK perspective, gov't's use of YouTube
13:54:40 <Karen> ...do you support this well-known big service
13:54:42 <Karen> ...element of reach
13:54:50 <Karen> ...but aspects in terms of service you don't like
13:55:01 <Karen> ...you just out-sourced another service to an arm of Google
13:55:07 <Karen> ...not a lot of great choices out there right now
13:55:14 <Karen> ...especially if you want to reach young people
13:55:28 <Karen> ...I have heard it said that there is a generation that wants to receive video and not text
13:55:36 <Karen> ...they don't want to get back a text Web page
13:55:44 <Karen> ...if YouTube is the only mass way to achieve reach
13:55:53 <Karen> ...this raises some important issues around interoperability
13:56:23 <Karen> ...also looking at location-aware devices
13:56:29 <Karen> ...and how this changes the game
13:56:36 <Karen> ...I am recently using an iPhone
13:56:42 <Karen> ...it's great technology
13:56:48 <Karen> ...what's significant
13:56:53 <Karen> ...with browser devices
13:56:58 <Karen> ...Yahoo and FireEagle
13:57:12 <Karen> ...how your experience of Web completely changes when people know where you are
13:57:20 <Karen> ...Twitter people who are the same train with me
13:57:31 <Karen> ...it's transformative in how we envisage service delivery
13:57:44 <Karen> ...but if I'm in an area, I want to know how safe the locale is
13:57:48 <Karen> ...where public conveniences are
13:57:54 <Karen> ...having access to information
13:58:04 <Karen> ...a whole bundle of issues to explore in this section of the document
13:58:09 <Karen> ...not sure how much we can say
13:58:21 <Karen> Kevin: dotMobi has the cities initiative
13:58:29 <Karen> ...Google has an intitiative on mobile
13:58:38 <Karen> ...Yahoo as well, focused more on European market
13:58:51 <Karen> ...maybe it's a reference point for perspective and information
13:58:59 <Karen> Suzanne: I heard someone in gov't say
13:59:09 <Karen> ...there is or will be a policy to geo-engable their databases
13:59:18 <Karen> Kevin: back to YouTube
13:59:31 <Karen> ...we successfully negotiated a partner channel agreement for gov't needs
13:59:44 <Karen> ...rationale was that we could not have done that without a significant investment
13:59:53 <Karen> ...yes, there are multiple vendors and sites
14:00:06 <josema> scribe:Karen
14:01:15 <Karen> Diane: there are different embeds for these vendor offerings
14:01:27 <Karen> ...would be good to have one embed statement that would work for any platform
14:01:31 <Karen> ...that would be huge for me
14:01:55 <Karen> David Brunton, LOC: I put old newspapers online
14:01:59 <Karen> ...two competing trends
14:02:05 <Karen> ...one is proliferation of channels
14:02:11 <josema> Topic: Multi Channel
14:02:13 <Karen> ...delivering via the Internet
14:02:26 <Karen> ...we are delivering via three or four channels
14:02:32 <Karen> ...Twitter, etc
14:02:40 <Karen> ...so treating Internet as one is dubious
14:02:47 <Karen> ...proliferation of channels 
14:03:01 <Karen> ...no work on our part, people can get huge images of old newspapers
14:03:10 <Karen> ..even on mobile devices
14:03:25 <Karen> ...becomes most meaningful to talk about proliferation of channels in terms of what access looks like
14:03:36 <Karen> Kevin: so what would be helpful from a standards perspective?
14:03:42 <Karen> ...standardization of APIs?
14:04:05 <Karen> David: the sheer number of APIs that we have to support, and the poor job we're doing getting data into multiple channels
14:04:20 <Karen> ...open search has done it for search and text, but that's a small drop in big ocean
14:04:32 <Karen> JohnS: difficult to pick a vendor's product
14:04:44 <Karen> ...have to make a choice to support a particular vendor's way of doing stuff
14:04:56 <Karen> ...do we back Google, iPhone? That's always a problem
14:05:26 <Karen> ChrisT: it's easy to define as syndication of services
14:05:34 <Karen> ...if you produce video and make available on Web site
14:05:45 <Karen> ...syndicate out to multiple places
14:05:55 <Karen> ...so you expose audiences to multiple platforms
14:06:02 <Karen> ...you can address accessibility concerns
14:06:15 <Karen> Kevin: an eGov focus can provide value outside of 508
14:06:24 <Karen> ...or reviewing work with another W3C work
14:06:31 <Karen> ...what else do we want to bubble up?
14:06:39 <Karen> ...are there other particular government needs?
14:06:51 <Karen> ...We may or may not have communicated special requirements
14:07:03 <Karen> Diane: from a financial reporting, there is "as reported data" 
14:07:20 <Karen> ...when a gov't entity submits a filing, they prepare report to look a certain way
14:07:26 <Karen> ...which paragraphs come first
14:07:34 <Karen> ...so when you repurpose data across multi-channels
14:07:48 <Karen> ...and I want to show a snip on mobile, etc.
14:07:57 <Karen> ...then how do you deal with this is how it was when I reported it
14:08:08 <Karen> ...how do you authenticate it was the "as reported view
14:08:12 <Karen> ...put some seal on it
14:08:29 <Karen> Rick, Sunlight Foundation
14:08:42 <Karen> ...Access to information in a timely fashion in its original form is critically important
14:08:47 <Karen> ...you have to trace back to that
14:09:04 <Karen> ...photo journalism industry dealth with whether images were manipulated or not
14:09:27 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:09:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA, rachel
14:09:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
14:09:30 <Karen> s/Rick/Greg Elin, Sunlight Foundation
14:10:06 <Karen> Diane: we can embed provinence URIs into documents
14:10:23 <Karen> Greg: what is role 5-10 years down the road
14:10:33 <Karen> ...with notion of the document being more electronic in the first place
14:10:44 <Karen> ...I was reflecting about electronic contracts in the first place
14:10:50 <Karen> ...rather than digitizing other documents
14:11:10 <Karen> Daniel Bennett: I studied film and video
14:11:25 <Karen> ...it's weird to talk about this in light of work of [] Morris
14:11:33 <Karen> ...and his most recent documentaries about Abu Graab
14:11:47 <Karen> ...He talks about what photographs show as proof
14:11:51 <Karen> ...hard to get meaning
14:12:02 <Karen> ...you can imbue meaning into something to change what you are seeing
14:12:08 <Karen> ...captions for example
14:12:16 <Karen> ...become more important to give context
14:12:21 <Karen> ...in terms of versimilitude
14:12:26 <Karen> ...cameras often have GPS devices
14:12:31 <Karen> ...time codes, date, GPS
14:12:38 <Karen> ...you can preserve the angle
14:12:42 <Karen> ...but it doesn't tell you a lot
14:12:46 <Karen> ...you do certain things
14:12:57 <Karen> ...that make it seem as if something is happening, when it is not
14:13:03 <Karen> ...if we did a video of what is happening here
14:13:13 <Karen> ...a videographer would probably do b-roll of the building
14:13:23 <Karen> ...in movies, they shoot different exteriors from the interiors
14:13:26 <Karen> ...this is a mind path
14:13:50 <Karen> ...Should encourage people who do this to preserve the time codes
14:14:00 <Karen> Kevin: perhaps something we provide as a validator
14:14:10 <Karen> Diane: on financial reporting, there are legal implications
14:14:21 <Karen> ...for the order in which items appear in report, the presentation of material
14:14:25 <Karen> ...the accountants world
14:14:34 <Karen> ...we recognize that the data is what's really important in this
14:14:39 <Karen> ...so people can manipulate it
14:14:57 <Karen> ...the accountants want to say that this is the canonical rendering of the document stored on SEC Web site, etc.
14:15:15 <Karen> Joe Carmel: when we move files to any device
14:15:21 <Karen> ...the performance is equal
14:15:30 <Karen> ...if Internet is used as a platform
14:15:34 <Karen> ...like Google docs editing
14:15:38 <Karen> ...like on your computer
14:15:44 <Karen> ...then these issues may become difficult
14:15:56 <Karen> ...can I really compare census data with something else on my mobile phone
14:16:09 <Karen> ...other challenges with multichannel as Internet evolves to another phase
14:16:15 <Karen> ...from file server to using applications
14:16:26 <Karen> ...I'm Joe Carmel from the phone yesterday
14:16:32 <Karen> ...retired federal employee
14:16:46 <Karen> ...did project for bills in XML in US House of Representatives
14:16:52 <Karen> ...and Senate
14:17:05 <Karen> Greg: I would like to clarify
14:17:13 <Karen> ...there is not the canonical version
14:17:21 <Karen> ...there is a context that it is relevant to
14:17:25 <Karen> ...I have footnotes and filing
14:17:30 <Karen> ...as we look at Recovery.gov
14:17:35 <Karen> ...you get into this recursive model
14:17:44 <Karen> ...what's original info I have; how far down chain does it go
14:17:56 <Karen> ...the accurate representation in one medium is different in another medium
14:18:01 <Karen> ...like accountants' rules
14:18:08 <Karen> ...so set up in metadata
14:18:14 <Karen> Diane: yes, we have this debate all the time
14:18:27 <Karen> ...trying to explain to authors that their documents may be viewed in multiple ways
14:18:35 <Karen> ...with a financial doc submitted to SEC
14:18:43 <Karen> ...they are allowed to submit a rendered version
14:18:50 <Karen> ...interesting dialogue with regulators as well
14:19:00 <Karen> ...may need to be a use case or standard approach
14:19:14 <Karen> ...I'm Diane Mueller, JustSystems and XBRL Int'l Consortium
14:19:19 <Karen> Kevin: anything more on this topic?
14:19:26 <Karen> Joe: this is a bit off
14:19:32 <Karen> ...there are a lot of PDF files
14:19:41 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel_Bennett has joined #egov
14:19:43 <Karen> ...government doesn't realize they can embed within PDF
14:19:52 <Karen> ...would be richer than pulling out directly
14:19:57 <Karen> ...a way to embed in Acrobat
14:20:02 <Karen> ...which is pretty good
14:20:09 <Karen> ...page number, specific point in that process
14:20:19 <Karen> ...it would be nice if agencies would include the source
14:20:31 <Karen> ...then you could package it together so long-term know that source document
14:20:37 <Karen> ...so you don't have to figure it all out
14:20:43 <Karen> Greg: I did not know that
14:20:50 <Karen> ...thinking in terms of conventions and practices
14:20:53 <Karen> ...not just standards
14:20:57 <Karen> ...promulgating ideas
14:21:01 <Karen> ...by convention
14:21:09 <Karen> ...also breaking down from document version to documents
14:21:17 <Karen> ...REcovery.gov has links to graphs and maps
14:21:22 <Karen> ...a simple pattern
14:21:31 <Karen> ...like if you have a visual rep of tabular data, have a link
14:21:42 <Karen> ...or provide link to download in CSV or other format
14:21:54 <Karen> ...particular practices or conventions below the document level in clustered elements
14:22:00 <Karen> ...to drive document toward a set of practices
14:22:02 <josema> s/[meeting starting]/scribe:Karen
14:22:08 <josema> rrsagent, pointer?
14:22:08 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-irc#T14-22-08
14:22:11 <Karen> Diane: in XBRL we have a best practices board
14:22:14 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:22:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
14:22:15 <Karen> ...for reporting
14:22:20 <Karen> ...Ihav personally experienced
14:22:29 <Karen> ...URI back to source, which is embedded in the document
14:22:42 <Karen> ...you can get right back to the canonical
14:22:46 <Karen> ...the source file
14:22:59 <Karen> ...gets back to conversation of Internet as source file
14:23:08 <Karen> Joe: Look at Homeland Security
14:23:25 <Karen> ...their domain has changed; URIs are fine as long as they continue to be there
14:23:34 <Karen> ...I think LOC has adopted a handle based system
14:23:38 <Karen> ...to mitigate that
14:23:53 <Karen> Daniel: one of processes in signing something
14:23:58 <Karen> ...is the ceremony around it
14:24:07 <Karen> ...preserving that in context of the record is interesting idea
14:24:14 <Karen> ...how electronic signatures should be done
14:24:23 <Karen> ...Where we see it is on click-through contracts
14:24:29 <Karen> ...show small print contracts
14:24:33 <Karen> ...you scroll through it
14:24:39 <Karen> ...then you go to the next step
14:24:45 <Karen> ...not sure how they know you did that step
14:24:49 <Karen> ...record that you signed
14:25:00 <Karen> ...so that you knowingly signed it
14:25:17 <Karen> Kevin: so we seem to be moving into authentication and identification space
14:25:31 <Karen> ...not sure we drew conclusion to multi-channel other than focus on mobile
14:25:38 <Karen> ...Let's take a short break
14:25:41 <Zakim> -rachel
14:45:28 <josema> [back from break]
14:45:41 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:45:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA
14:45:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
14:46:39 <markthomas> markthomas has joined #egov
14:46:42 <josema> topic: Identification and Authentication
14:48:14 <Karen> Daniel: I worked for member of Congress and addressed issue of electronic signatures
14:48:24 <Karen> ...Electronic signatures vs. digital signatures
14:50:21 <josema> [Daniel reviews the paper http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/#idauth]
14:51:00 <Karen> ...I'd like to focus on role for gov'ts
14:51:06 <Karen> ...other aspect is nature of what we could do
14:51:14 <Karen> ...once we tried to map it into the digital form
14:51:25 <Karen> ...think about how we authenticate people, or could
14:51:29 <Karen> ...using GPS, etc.
14:51:49 <Karen> ...Let me go through list
14:51:57 <Karen> ...mapping onto digital world, here are some main problems
14:52:02 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:52:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
14:52:14 <Karen> ...privacy concerns, costs -- what we should be doing as we map into digital world
14:52:25 <Karen> ...keep same types of easy physical things that become barriers
14:52:47 <Karen> ...if someone gets a fishing license in person may not need ID
14:53:10 <Karen> ...but may need a digital token or do unline; may be an unnecessary burden
14:53:25 <Karen> ...avoid unnecessary levels of authentication
14:53:38 <Karen> ...when to pre-authenticate people
14:53:47 <Karen> ...authentication often done by what you have
14:54:00 <Karen> ...you have to give them something prior to the action they take
14:54:05 <Karen> ...a form, for example
14:54:26 <Karen> ...avoiding focing identityf to be divulged when unecessary or counter to the purpose
14:54:31 <Karen> ...such as voting
14:54:42 <Karen> ...keep that in mind
14:55:07 <Karen> ...and avoiding reliance on outside parties to supply authenticating credentials as the sole means of authentication
14:55:11 <Karen> ...for example, use SSL
14:55:28 <Karen> ...there are a handful of providers the major browsers have made standard
14:55:31 <Karen> ...mostly commercial
14:55:49 <Karen> ...government, in order to get digital certificate, was going to get from a commercial service
14:55:57 <Karen> ...I wasn't sure what that meant in terms of authentication
14:56:13 <Karen> ...to rely upon an authentication source in another country, for example
14:56:28 <Karen> ...consider when making decision about who supplies credentials; root authority
14:56:44 <Karen> ...SSL is big in Web; but we should not gloss over
14:56:58 <Karen> ...that security is provided by non-governmental agencies
14:57:12 <Karen> ...Whole bunch of uses for this
14:57:27 <Karen> ...understand what forms that can take; see list
14:57:47 <Karen> ...assertion and assumption
14:58:04 <Karen> ...when I met you I put on a name tag, for example, without an ID
14:58:19 <Karen> ...assertion is an aspect of authentication
14:58:24 <Karen> ...assumption is another aspect
14:58:31 <Karen> ...this happens frequently on the Web
14:58:39 <Karen> ...and more traditional things, about what you know
14:58:51 <Karen> ...such as in the financial world; your PIN, mother's maiden name
14:59:01 <Karen> ...what you are; biometric devices being embedded 
14:59:06 <Karen> ...what you have; those are tokens
14:59:15 <Karen> ...I have an RSA security card, for example
14:59:28 <Karen> ...what time it is
14:59:38 <Karen> ...in the US there are services provided
14:59:51 <Karen> ...that provide time information; can also be used for identity
14:59:54 <Karen> ...the person or event
14:59:57 <Karen> ...who knows you
15:00:04 <Karen> ...an idea circulating about the Web of Trust
15:00:14 <Karen> ...idea where people ID based on who their friends are
15:00:23 <Karen> ...a growing possibility, such as friends on FaceBook
15:00:32 <Karen> ...quality and quantity of attempts
15:00:51 <Karen> ...a person may mistake once about their identity but not 10K times
15:01:03 <Karen> ...off-line response or vouching
15:01:08 <Karen> ...hard to get arms around
15:01:17 <Karen> ...things take place and then afterwards we meet up with them
15:01:38 <Karen> ...in terms of privacy release, the threshold for ID should be low because that was beginning process
15:01:47 <Zakim> + +1.202.606.aabb
15:01:51 <Karen> ...at another point, there would be chance for out of band; call up the person
15:02:00 <Karen> ...based on number they provided
15:02:09 <Karen> ...this is used by credit card companies to authenticate
15:02:39 <Karen> ...Not trying to make obvious answers, but think W3C group should let people know about some of the standards they offer in these areas
15:02:46 <Karen> ...Use of XML which stores information
15:03:03 <Karen> ...URIs and URLs are important
15:03:12 <Karen> ...Mail to or HTTP addresses for saying who they are
15:03:18 <josema> zakim, who's here?
15:03:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb
15:03:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
15:03:21 <Karen> ...being used within databases
15:03:28 <Karen> ...rely on domain system for big piece of that
15:03:40 <Karen> ...Joe mentioned earlier when one department becomes another department
15:03:52 <Karen> ...I like open id; it uses and HTTP URL for identification
15:04:06 <Karen> ...you can get a v-card and microformatted information about who I am
15:04:16 <Karen> ...but does not nec. supply third-party information
15:04:25 <Karen> ...that is also being used for wiki
15:04:38 <Karen> ...XForms is one of main standard set from W3C for allowing for transactions
15:04:58 <Karen> ...also consider in work about preserving ceremony and protocols of signing and authenticating documents and contracgts
15:05:01 <Karen> s/contracts
15:05:08 <Karen> ...XForms used to preserve
15:05:13 <Karen> ...Then weirdness in XML
15:05:22 <Karen> ..of not having something with tags that goes beyond what's inside the tags
15:05:35 <Karen> ...important in context of validity and non-repudiation
15:05:46 <Karen> ...putting in the hash in the XML document; a fingerprint of the whole document
15:05:51 <Karen> ...describes what's outside of it
15:05:55 <Karen> ...seems to be valid
15:06:04 <Karen> ...to preserve non-repudiation
15:06:12 <Karen> ...consider when a person signs a contract or form
15:06:30 <Karen> ...happened at a certain time; but if no way to preserve in a way using a hash, then it makes it less dependable
15:06:38 <Karen> ...Can put something up on a Web site
15:06:53 <Karen> Greg: Is there a possibility to follow pattern like Internet archive?
15:07:02 <Karen> ...like a third party authenticating?
15:07:09 <Karen> Daniel: an interesting question
15:07:22 <Karen> ...if you can go back to the thing you trust
15:07:39 <Karen> ...if you put up URL and someone later repudiates it with a false copy, you can go back to that one
15:07:46 <Karen> ...a question of preserving in the Web over time
15:07:53 <Karen> ...I don't see a problem but it's a consideration
15:08:03 <Karen> ...doesn't address privacy issues when you don't want things on the net
15:08:12 <Karen> Greg: but could a pattern be in gov't 
15:08:27 <Karen> ...that the archive or other authority is actually managing that digital archive and certification service
15:08:32 <Karen> Daniel: yes
15:08:45 <John> John has joined #egov
15:08:49 <Karen> Ken: identify who you know; social interactions are ancient
15:09:07 <Karen> ...if you go to India, you sign documents that say, "I am Ken, son of so-and-so"
15:09:14 <Karen> ...it's an ancient way of identifying people
15:09:20 <Karen> Daniel: I don't disagree
15:09:26 <Karen> ...when PKI was on the scene
15:09:33 <Karen> ...there was that other form of securing email
15:09:38 <Karen> ...based on Web of Trust
15:09:46 <Karen> ...PGP, thanks
15:09:51 <Karen> ...that has been used a bit 
15:10:01 <Karen> ...in context of gov't interesting when you do things online
15:10:10 <Karen> ...move toward providing a registering authority
15:10:14 <Karen> ...different from who you know
15:10:23 <Karen> ...in terms of contracts, where two parties trust each other
15:10:30 <Karen> ...I didn't mean to say it's unusual in world
15:10:40 <Karen> ...but about how things are being mapped to digital world
15:10:47 <Karen> Mark Thomas: Open ID suffers from same problem
15:11:00 <Karen> ...myopenid.com suffers from similar problem
15:11:13 <Karen> Daniel: open ID is not a third party, it's a standard
15:11:24 <Karen> ...they have open source software you can download
15:11:38 <Karen> MarkT: My open id used by W3C wiki...
15:11:49 <Karen> Daniel: you can use any open id providers for W3C wiki
15:11:55 <Karen> ...separate from what open id is
15:12:21 <Karen> Mark: So it doesn't rule out idea of openid.gov?
15:12:36 <Karen> Daniel: I believe that who served it was really important
15:12:44 <Karen> ...but that's counter to idea of open id
15:12:50 <Karen> ...may be used as third party authentication
15:13:00 <Karen> ...because URL is a unique identifier, another place can store
15:13:06 <Karen> ...and point as a verification
15:13:17 <Karen> ...this has been done by VeriSign and Better Business Bureau
15:13:39 <Karen> ...If you click a link from a Web page and go to the VeriSign page, they will say that the URL you came from has been verified through us
15:13:46 <Karen> ...so you can trust they are who they say they are
15:13:56 <Karen> ...so transaction should be valid, to avoid spoofing
15:14:08 <Karen> ...will specify the URL on their page
15:14:17 <Karen> ...that is a simple thing to do in terms of open id
15:14:30 <Karen> ...government could verify people based on their open id
15:14:40 <Karen> ...maybe there would be a time limit for renewal or response
15:14:46 <Karen> ...to ensure you are still in control of it
15:14:58 <Karen> ...then that would supply that third party without supplying that source
15:15:12 <Karen> Peter Alderman, from Govt: I don't know why I want to do Open ID. Gov
15:15:20 <Karen> ...we want to rely on other people's credentials
15:15:27 <Karen> Daniel: I agree
15:15:34 <Karen> ...I have been dealing with Congress
15:16:09 <Karen> ...there is a question of authenticating people when they bring things to Congress
15:16:11 <rrahman> rrahman has joined #egov
15:16:19 <Karen> Daniel: I don't think that's needed 
15:16:43 <Karen> ...county government is thinking of open id for nonrepudiation, not authentication
15:16:50 <Karen> ...so only you can come back to get that information
15:17:00 <Karen> ...So no one else can come back into that system
15:17:11 <Karen> ...which is different from authentication, but it's about the series of transaction
15:17:18 <Karen> ...perhaps ID on-going transaction
15:17:28 <Karen> PeterA: open id is just another technology
15:17:43 <Karen> ...the appropriateness of using it for any transaction depends upon the risk level, assurance of identity
15:18:06 <Karen> ...what concerns me is reasoning from the technology backwards rather 
15:18:18 <Karen> ...I wrote the legislation
15:18:24 <Karen> Peter: And I had to make it work
15:18:43 <Karen> JohnS: In the UK, it cited authentication need, so we set up government gateway
15:18:58 <Karen> ...to access public services, you have to have a gov't gateway number, PIN
15:19:04 <Karen> ...you don't have that same system in US
15:19:09 <Karen> ...I wanted to get some sense
15:19:30 <Karen> ...what is the shape of gov't int'l; are states bound to construct systems
15:19:39 <Karen> ...for example authenticate who is filing tax return
15:19:52 <Karen> Jose: My opinion based on what I have seen
15:20:07 <Karen> ...In Spain we have an electronic ID card I use to access a government service
15:20:18 <Karen> ...I can comment on a gov't blog, I don't need it
15:20:26 <Karen> ...Strong cultural difference in many countries
15:20:39 <Karen> ...In Singapore, which is eGov savvy
15:20:48 <Karen> ...they do opposite and don't ID their citizens online
15:20:52 <Karen> ...most of time, they don't care
15:20:55 <Zakim> +rachel
15:21:10 <Karen> ...when they get a lot of complaints or anonymous emails, they focus on the substance
15:21:15 <Karen> ...they don't care who is saying what
15:21:25 <Karen> ...they do have id cards, but used for specific cases
15:21:35 <Karen> ...In Latin America, there are few id systems
15:21:43 <Karen> Daniel: the idea of identity is a flexible things
15:21:47 <Karen> ...s/thing
15:21:55 <Karen> ...nature of identity is different culturally
15:22:05 <Karen> ...we have strong dispositions in US
15:22:22 <Karen> Kevin: is there an opportunity for us to take a position on standards, or do we need to be general
15:22:32 <Karen> ...recognizing issues, but not drawing conclusions
15:22:42 <Karen> ...It's not going to be one-size-fits-all
15:22:58 <Karen> Daniel: yes, pattern of everything; we should point to what W3C offers
15:23:12 <Karen> PeterA: there are many other organizations in this space; so you may want to base line what others are doing
15:23:25 <Karen> Greg: I look at technology in context of its practice
15:23:35 <Karen> ...open id is a distributed system at its core 
15:23:53 <Karen> ...allows people to offload identity to place that has done another level of authentication
15:24:01 <Karen> ...looking at a distributed system rather than an authority
15:24:06 <OAmbur> For .gov agencies, the most meaningful aspects of their "IDs" are their missions, visions, values, goals, objectives, and stakeholders, i.e., their strategic plans.  Depending upon one's point of view, the same might be said of individuals.
15:24:09 <Karen> Peter: but it's not the only one by a long shot
15:24:13 <Karen> ...depends upon the need
15:24:22 <Karen> ...as said earlier, one size does not fit all
15:24:28 <Karen> Joe: I'd like to step back
15:24:35 <Karen> ...this area involves two aspects
15:24:46 <Karen> ...individual coming to gov't to authenticate themselves
15:24:57 <Karen> ...and the government authenticating its official documents
15:25:03 <Karen> ...I like the assertion concept
15:25:15 <Karen> ...government asserts that document has not changed since they published it
15:25:20 <josema> zakim, who's here?
15:25:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, rachel
15:25:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see rrahman, John, markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
15:25:26 <Karen> ...they distinguish between authentic and official
15:25:34 <josema> zakim, aaaa is probably OAmbur
15:25:35 <Zakim> +OAmbur?; got it
15:25:52 <Karen> ...recognize once they publish on Web, another entity can publish; so what's the provinence
15:26:02 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:26:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
15:26:18 <Karen> Joe: how does gov't publish data if it gets replicated
15:26:29 <Karen> ...And then when I as indiv does business with govt'...
15:26:37 <Karen> ...we had federal PKI initiative
15:26:49 <Karen> ...I was pleased we could piggyback onto federal PKI program
15:27:08 <Karen> ...so we could use their facilities
15:27:18 <Karen> ...made things simpler
15:27:22 <Karen> ...for lobby disclosure
15:27:56 <Karen> ...that's one technology, but federal gov't has to some extent
15:28:11 <Karen> ...where interactions are at that level, the DoT has that service
15:28:25 <Karen> Daniel: I think they gave people certificate
15:28:31 <Karen> Peter: yes, four certificates
15:28:37 <Karen> ...at DOD
15:28:48 <Karen> Daniel: DoD has been leader in authentication adoption
15:29:03 <Karen> ...not get into real ID
15:29:16 <Karen> Ken: we will see a lot of aggregated data that claims to be government
15:29:30 <Karen> ...it would be good to have link to open source to verify data
15:29:33 <josema> q?
15:29:37 <Karen> ...we do semantic web
15:29:53 <Karen> ...data.gov and recovery.gov will have a number of mash-ups that will be unclear
15:30:03 <Karen> ...we could produce a standard about how we aggregated the data
15:30:11 <Karen> ...that could provide a level of trust
15:30:16 <Karen> ...Second comment on ID and data
15:30:38 <Karen> ...I wrote about suject...can we have a privacy wall
15:30:52 <Karen> ...so gov't cannot see your transactions in other parts of government
15:31:05 <Karen> Peter: depends upon the gov't application area
15:31:19 <Karen> ...if they care about an attribute, then your id can be masked, but it's situationa
15:31:31 <Karen> Ken: May be case with IRS that needs to know
15:31:52 <Karen> ...but agent may only need to know your soc sec number was verified
15:32:08 <Karen> ...I am suggesting a system that a person in gov't cannot query every other transaction and where they have been
15:32:12 <Karen> ...knowing there is a hidden layer
15:32:25 <Karen> ...so you can only be looked up based on that relevant transaction
15:32:28 <Karen> Peter: two comments
15:32:33 <Karen> ...the need to know your identity
15:32:35 <Karen> ...is situational
15:32:58 <Karen> ...depends upon application and purpose; we are agreed that our policy statements say you should only ask and keep info you absolutely need
15:33:09 <Karen> ...and if you ask for ID, we have to protect and ensure
15:33:18 <Karen> ...our systems are audited anually for compliance
15:33:24 <Karen> ...that is not well know because it's geek stuff
15:33:34 <Karen> ...Secondly, the identity architecture we have deployed
15:33:39 <Karen> ...does not aggregate data
15:33:52 <Karen> ...there is no capability or interest on the civilian side to aggregate data
15:33:58 <Karen> ...I work on civilian side
15:34:06 <Karen> ...we are not interested in tracking you across cyberspace
15:34:16 <Karen> Daniel: I would like to go back to Ken's first point
15:34:30 <Karen> ...trusting the information in a mash-up and exposing the methods that a mash-up used
15:34:39 <Karen> ...if there are links to the originating documents
15:34:57 <Karen> ...that idea I have been working on with repository schema
15:35:22 <Karen> ...idea is either with XQuery or SPARQL, you can preserve method by which something was pulled out in an auditable way
15:35:40 <Karen> Ken: I am saying something more general; not everyone will use XQuery or SPARQL
15:35:55 <Karen> ...when you put view source and show how your Java Script compiles that application
15:36:00 <Karen> ...it will avert problems
15:36:12 <Karen> ...if people try to put up fradulent aggregated data
15:36:30 <Karen> ...If we have a standard, that would negate the problem since they are not following the standard
15:36:41 <Karen> Daniel: I'm just saying that the W3C already has some standards
15:36:50 <Karen> Joe: I feel like replication is a problem, period.
15:37:02 <Karen> ...That's a tough statement; there are lots of mash-up sites
15:37:12 <Karen> ...I would claim that I cannot trust any mash-up side
15:37:25 <Karen> ...If I find an error in a GPO page, I can contact them
15:37:31 <Karen> ...and they can correct that error
15:37:51 <Karen> ...But all of the mash-up sites that used this data, will have that error
15:38:07 <Karen> ...the assumption on mash-up site is that was historical data that will never change
15:38:24 <Karen> ...so using data by reference rather than by application. 
15:38:32 <Karen> ...You end up with a better quality of data
15:38:45 <Karen> Ken: My concern is that change.gov or change.org
15:39:04 <Karen> ...showing what people want to have happen; for example marijuana came up to top of list
15:39:19 <Karen> ...people who disagree with Obama on will push issues
15:39:31 <Karen> ...Web site purports to be the voice of the American people
15:39:48 <Karen> ...in transparency, we are trying to get more people in public sector to make the data more relevant
15:40:02 <Karen> ...as we launch this, I would like to see some standard adopted so we don't hurt the brand of open data
15:40:13 <Karen> ...so people won't believe anything that says open gov't data
15:40:29 <Karen> Peter: That's why GPO approach is the right way; if gov't signs those documents
15:40:39 <Karen> ...anyone can go click to see if the certificate is valid
15:40:45 <Karen> Daniel: Let's move on
15:40:54 <Karen> ...all important points
15:41:01 <Karen> Greg: So put this on white board
15:41:08 <edsu> edsu has joined #egov
15:41:17 <Karen> ...identification of organizations, company parent structures, understand who the contractor is
15:41:22 <Karen> ...have that be consistent
15:41:32 <Karen> ...fits in with identity, but identity of an organization
15:41:36 <Karen> ...it's a real need we have
15:41:46 <Karen> ...we don't have a way to get the corporate ownership tree from the government
15:41:55 <Karen> Daniel: important point
15:42:25 <Karen> ...especially people going after recovery and stimuls funds
15:42:40 <Karen> Joe: gov't identification of their data, and how citizens authenticate themselves
15:42:51 <Karen> Kevin: good conversation that brought fourth some issues
15:43:04 <Karen> ...I'd like to ask Chris Testa to lead long-term data conversation now
15:43:08 <Karen> ...then continue after lunch
15:44:16 <josema> topic: Long Term Data Management
15:44:23 <josema> scribe:josema
15:45:30 <josema> [scribing will suffer a bit from new scribe ability, more summarized, please jump in as you like]
15:46:32 <josema> [back to conversation this morning, how can you point to a You Tube source vs. authoritative source]
15:47:05 <josema> [discussed yesterday, published once and syndicate]
15:47:48 <josema> Suzanne: if goal is to make data discoverable, available, accessible, we need to think differently
15:47:48 <OAmbur> One issue related to records management is the importance of presentation, i.e., exactly what did the individual see when he or she did what he or she did.
15:47:56 <josema> ... how we manager our data
15:48:02 <josema> s/mamager/manage
15:48:18 <josema> ... there are some experimental practices
15:48:25 <josema> ... Virtual Alabama is one of them
15:48:41 <josema> ... whole idea is to make whole info available in the event of a crisis
15:49:03 <josema> ... so others could make an idea on what the situation is and plan accordingly
15:49:11 <josema> s/make/have
15:49:52 <josema> ... they decided to take responsibility of information down to the source
15:50:07 <josema> ... when asking what's the quality of the information
15:50:22 <josema> ... in practice they have SLA
15:50:27 <josema> s/SLA/SLAa
15:50:31 <josema> s/SLAa/SLAs
15:50:49 <josema> ... one example of we might be able to surface in general
15:51:09 <josema> Diane: access data in crisis management is very important
15:51:27 <josema> ... EPA gave a presentation on [] project recently on managing this information
15:52:00 <josema> [scribe missed a comment]
15:52:26 <josema> Joe: I think it's practice in gov agencies not to keep trail
15:52:39 <josema> ... gov is made of people, people make mistakes
15:52:53 <josema> ... sometimes errors are significant
15:53:03 <josema> ... this is a problem, long term
15:53:28 <josema> ... once it's published and it's distributed, there's no trail
15:53:34 <josema> ... error is replicated
15:54:17 <josema> Kevin: there's pressure to keep all the copies, even when only one character has changed
15:54:37 <josema> ... it has legal implications
15:55:04 <josema> Diane: we had to create methodologies of all our taxonomies, i.e. for versioning
15:55:34 <josema> ... what was the version in force at a given time
15:55:57 <josema> ... this related to what Joe and Daniel showed yesterday
15:56:29 <josema> ... how you archive the versions, maintain differences, etc is a big problem for us
15:57:02 <josema> Chris: at LOC we looked at a document holisticaly, was difficult to reference to just a single piece that was being changed
15:57:38 <josema> [?]: I don't nobody here has published so much wrong data as I did
15:57:59 <josema> ... OCRing newspaper information, posting to Flickr makes it better
15:58:09 <josema> ... the non auth version is better than the auth one
15:58:25 <josema> ... data reference is an important piece of the big picture
15:58:37 <josema> ... but any sing point of failure is the enemy
15:58:44 <josema> s/sing/single
15:58:57 <josema> ... you can't ever be sure everybody is using the same copy
15:59:25 <josema> ... we are putting data online that in cases has been hidden for hundreds of years
16:00:27 <josema> ... someone can download info from our site and even if the site disappears, info will survive somewhere else
16:00:44 <josema> ... there's also need of useful pointers to pieces of information
16:01:29 <josema> Daniel: wild ideas you brought up
16:02:00 <josema> ... when a site goes down, people go to Google cache to find the info
16:02:35 <josema> ... this is an example that just by viewing information there is fingerprint
16:02:47 <josema> ... another view of preservation, just by viewing the info
16:03:12 <josema> ... the more people views it is an act of preservation
16:03:34 <josema> ChrisD: if you already published data and you find error on it two years later
16:03:55 <josema> ... should you fix the version there or preserve it as is and release a revised one?
16:04:13 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
16:04:41 <josema> ... in that case you may want that permanent URI to be a pointer to list of versions
16:05:54 <josema> Joe: I tend to think that stuff that goes to National Archives won't be touched
16:06:04 <josema> ... you don't want a bill there to be changed
16:06:44 <josema> ... imagine if you got a facsimile of a bill, you were going to check it before the original and you'd find differences
16:07:35 <josema> ... there's a reason why the President sign it
16:07:51 <josema> ... according to US code, the printed version by GPO is the law
16:08:39 <josema> [?]: most of information dated before 1895? is wrong, misspelled, based on rumours...
16:09:08 <josema> ... you digitize it, OCR doesn't work perfectly, etc., in our case we wanted to preserve what was present in the original
16:09:25 <josema> ... if there was a mistake originally you want it to be there
16:09:30 <josema> ... it's a record of what people saw
16:10:47 <josema> [joe gives example on biographies that changed over time because of mistakes and the language used was different from era to era]
16:11:14 <josema> joe: the way old historians wrote some of those may be not politically correct today
16:11:22 <josema> ... but I don't want to see them changes
16:11:31 <josema> s/changes/changed
16:11:49 <josema> zakim, who's here?
16:11:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see OAmbur?, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, rachel
16:11:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see edsu, rrahman, John, markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
16:11:58 <josema> zakim, aabb is probably Brand
16:11:58 <Zakim> +Brand?; got it
16:12:14 <josema> [scribe missed comment from Kevin on history of bills]
16:13:08 <josema> joe: what we are doing today is to put what we have in paper in electronic form
16:13:29 <josema> ... but the electronic universe is different, do we really need the paper form? the paper law version?
16:13:54 <josema> ... there are people and organizations devoted to that paper version but may or may not be needed
16:14:16 <josema> ... in the end, we all are on this together
16:14:45 <josema> Diane: what we need to figure out is what we can do from a W3C POV to improve current situation
16:15:07 <josema> ... maybe a BP mechanism to connect the documents (OCR, original, other versions)?
16:16:05 <josema> Daniel: in 10,000 years from now, how could we reconstruct what is being electronically archived, e.g. in XML
16:16:30 <josema> ... is this an adquate way? is the metadata helpful to preserve meanings?
16:16:41 <josema> ... is CSS a method of preservation?
16:17:11 <josema> ... versioning issues and authenticity are important, but these ones, too
16:17:32 <josema> ... will these documents be easily reproducable?
16:18:09 <josema> [John presents a piece on "referencing legislation"]
16:18:27 <OAmbur> With reference to the need to preserve the presentation of the data, XFDL is a candidate XML specification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Forms_Description_Language 
16:18:43 <josema> John: in ?? the online legislation in the UK had already the same legal status as the paper version
16:19:04 <josema> ... all over EU this is happening, about half countries already have same status
16:19:39 <OAmbur> XPS is another candidate XML specification addressing the presentation of data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_Paper_Specification
16:20:29 <josema> [john explains the features and the URI scheme in place]
16:24:19 <josema> [URIs allows to tackle many of the problems we have discussed]
16:24:31 <josema> s/allows/allow
16:26:00 <josema> Daniel: so you have resolved how to cite a piece of legislation that exists as a whole document
16:26:23 <josema> ... we've being thinking in terms of smaller pieces, too, and using XPointer to go deeper
16:26:44 <josema> John: exactly what we are also enabling, pieces have anchors, too
16:27:21 <josema> ... for us, these are identifiers, what they resolve is another question
16:27:52 <josema> ... we don't consider the XPointer as part of the URI
16:28:00 <josema> ... we built the whole scheme
16:29:20 <josema> ... from a SW perspective we rather might have the # anchor, but we are talking here on how to identify the piece
16:29:39 <josema> ... forget to document for a moment, it's all about an identifier scheme
16:29:49 <josema> Greg: I think this is terrific
16:30:20 <josema> ... i really want an identifier to anything I might want to link to
16:30:24 <josema> s//I
16:30:32 <josema> s/i/I
16:30:39 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:30:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
16:31:13 <josema> Daniel: it's an interesting solution but I'm surprised at not seeing XPointer there
16:32:40 <josema> joe: I can understand this being used as an identifier, e.g. protects the system in something does not exist in the future?
16:32:44 <josema> s/?/??
16:33:33 <josema> Greg: I understand this might not qualify as URI, but as a Web description mechanism
16:34:23 <josema> [scribe missed comment from Joe]
16:37:42 <josema> Greg: people who invented software didn't gave thought to search
16:38:02 <josema> ... then the people who invented searched, had to build on what was available
16:38:28 <josema> ... building a bridge between both worlds is an interesting and useful thing to do
16:39:06 <josema> Daniel: you need an schema describing how the URI are constructed
16:40:39 <josema> Greg: if there were a machine readable version of that, for me that's a step towards the SW
16:41:23 <josema> [breaking for lunch]
16:41:25 <Zakim> -rachel
16:41:30 <Zakim> -OAmbur?
16:43:36 <markthomas> markthomas has left #egov
17:00:56 <Zakim> -??P13
17:01:38 <Owen> Owen has joined #egov
17:28:49 <heatherwest> heatherwest has joined #egov
17:37:34 <josema> zakim, who's here?
17:37:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see AIA, Brand?
17:37:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see heatherwest, Owen, edsu, rrahman, Daniel_Bennett, Karen, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot
17:37:44 <josema> zakim, mute AIA
17:37:44 <Zakim> AIA should now be muted
17:38:10 <josema> [still waiting for people to come back from lunch]
17:53:28 <mib_9cb9y50b> mib_9cb9y50b has joined #egov
17:54:39 <mib_9cb9y50b> karen myers is teaching diane mueller irc chatting
17:56:00 <OAmbur> OAmbur has joined #egov
17:56:38 <Zakim> +??P3
18:00:33 <josema> [starting in 5 minutes]
18:04:25 <josema> ack AIA
18:05:12 <Karen> Kevin: So let's get started
18:05:20 <josema> scribe:Karen
18:05:21 <Karen> ...We have had some good discussions up until lunch
18:05:40 <Karen> ...now let's look at what we have done so far
18:05:47 <Karen> ...and where we want to focus and prioritize
18:05:56 <Karen> ...So looking back to yesterday's discussion on Web 2.0
18:06:11 <Karen> ...One of issues is how gov't employees can take advantage of social media
18:06:24 <Karen> ...Second, reference models...(see agenda)
18:06:38 <Karen> ...Are there some tangible take-aways to refocus that conversation
18:06:50 <Karen> ...Reflecting upon George Thomas' comments
18:07:19 <Karen> ...related to social networking; lots of groups have been beating that horse
18:07:42 <Karen> ...so what does W3C contribute to the discussion, or should we let it go
18:07:50 <Karen> Daniel: I think W3C should be part of the discussion
18:08:07 <Karen> ...rules in US and UK are different
18:08:15 <Karen> ...people have different hats they wear
18:08:34 <Karen> ...So a member of Congress can say certain things under one hat, such as fund raising vs. as the rep
18:08:41 <Karen> ...how their speech would be identified
18:08:50 <Karen> ...So the idea of providing different identification for people
18:08:55 <Karen> ...they can have a public persona
18:09:02 <Karen> ...they speak on their thing on the record
18:09:31 <Karen> ...or if they identified themselves differently it would be another identity
18:09:40 <Karen> Kevin: So are we enabling social media networking
18:09:45 <Karen> Daniel: I think it's a piece
18:09:54 <Karen> Joe: Policies drive technologies
18:10:02 <Karen> ...as a former federal manager, this is a tough area
18:10:12 <Karen> ...I can already sense what is going on 
18:10:23 <Karen> ..the gov't is concerned about who speaks for the gov't and what is said
18:10:32 <Karen> ...the media does not distinguish between the hats that they wear
18:10:43 <Karen> ...So I can say this now because I'm not employed by gov't
18:10:48 <Karen> ...So it's a cultural issue
18:10:54 <Karen> ...I get a lot out of Twitter
18:11:00 <Karen> ...like to partipate in the discussions
18:11:04 <Karen> ...It would be useful to them
18:11:20 <Karen> ...They may want to watch and observe rather than be participative
18:11:32 <Karen> ...I understand why I don't see gov't folks with their full names on twitter
18:11:39 <Karen> ...It's sad but that may be the reality for now
18:11:46 <Karen> ...Not sure how to overcome that 
18:12:02 <Karen> Kevin: Are there standards to use if and when the culture is ready?
18:12:11 <Karen> Daniel: When you make a statement on a form and sign your name
18:12:17 <Karen> ...you are under legal recourse
18:12:33 <Karen> ...if you go your FaceBook page and say something that's untrue, under another identity
18:12:41 <Karen> ...except under the terms of service contract
18:12:46 <Karen> ...technology is hard to map
18:12:54 <Karen> ...difficult but doesn't mean we cannot deal with it
18:13:15 <Karen> ChrisJ: If it is difficult to take a stance, maybe we list the known issues in order for gov't to incorporate
18:13:21 <Karen> ...we could contribute this much
18:13:31 <Karen> Diane: If gov't isn't ready for social networking
18:13:41 <Karen> ...maybe we need to look at multichannel delivery
18:13:49 <Karen> ...and social networking is platform for that content
18:14:02 <Karen> ...so maybe W3C looks at standardizing content across the platform
18:14:08 <Karen> Joe: That's great
18:14:17 <Karen> ...but start talking about gov't employees
18:14:25 <Karen> ...So maybe gov't has its own twitter 
18:14:40 <Karen> Daniel: There is a standard that Twitter uses
18:14:48 <Karen> ...could recreate the same technology
18:14:59 <Karen> Suzanne: I know there are early adopters in the US gov't
18:15:06 <Karen> ...and there is also an inertia to overcome
18:15:26 <Karen> ...and some employees don't understand the tech, or what policies they will violate
18:15:38 <Karen> ...some employees don't care or don't understand legal implications
18:15:53 <Karen> ...there have been people arrested for stuff they put on the Web was used as evidence against them
18:16:00 <Karen> ...people have to take time to think
18:16:05 <Karen> ...We are social animals, not machines
18:16:13 <heatherwest> heatherwest has joined #egov
18:16:19 <Karen> ...I am puzzled why we aren't socializing with the tools that allow that capability
18:16:34 <Karen> ...So should W3C build some scenarios to educate government and help transform
18:16:37 <Karen> ...Issue of culture
18:16:49 <Karen> ...in US gov't we are a culture of "need to know"
18:16:56 <Karen> ...I will share if you need to know and I trust you
18:17:05 <Karen> ...So it's a new day with new admin and leadership
18:17:15 <Karen> ...and our performance will be measured by how well we engage
18:17:21 <Karen> ...we will be forced to shift our culture
18:17:28 <Karen> ...we may be more creative or innovative
18:17:37 <Karen> ...and start to think pro-actively and to create our future
18:17:47 <Karen> ...So the issue of trust and a strategy to find those early adopters
18:17:53 <Karen> ...Show what was done with little money
18:18:00 <Karen> ...make it ok to rethink our policies
18:18:07 <Karen> ...Agencies are bounded by their missions
18:18:15 <Karen> ...they have their chain of command, buildings, money
18:18:19 <Karen> ...In a connected world
18:18:23 <Karen> ...the boundaries are blurred
18:18:33 <Karen> ...forced to join up with other folks to solve same problems
18:18:40 <Karen> ...their roles and authority are blurred
18:18:52 <Karen> ...Some advice is not to come up with a single standard
18:18:59 <Karen> ...but form a community around a common concern
18:19:05 <Zakim> + +1.202.236.aacc - is perhaps OAmbur?
18:19:10 <Karen> ...so that formation of community will stand the test of time
18:19:25 <Karen> ...new world in ways our wars are fought
18:19:25 <josema> topic: Future
18:19:35 <Karen> ...for example, combatants dressed in non-combat uniforms
18:19:49 <Karen> ...so they formed a community and partnership with non-combatant organizations in the waterworld
18:19:55 <Karen> ...shipping industry, port authority
18:20:08 <Karen> ...so the common problem is about identifying ships, crews, and cargo
18:20:10 <josema> I tend to believe once again, everything starts from Government Data, and will try to make my point
18:20:22 <Karen> ...So that's an example of a common problem beyond the usual enterprise
18:20:33 <Karen> ...They are empowered now about what information to share
18:20:38 <Karen> ...That's an example of a practice
18:20:47 <Karen> ...The W3C could look at all these communities
18:20:59 <Karen> ...and ask if there are standards to put in place to normalize these communities
18:21:10 <Karen> ...The other thing is metadata is always going to be an issue
18:21:19 <Karen> ...Can W3C enable something around metadata standards
18:21:26 <Karen> ...forgive my ignorance if they exists
18:21:37 <Karen> ...can we come up with principles that communities adopt when they are formed
18:21:53 <Karen> Jose: When we started preparing charter we discussed this
18:22:03 <Karen> ...and back in October F2F in France
18:22:11 <Karen> ...we discovered it was hard to scope the work
18:22:20 <Karen> ...so many "e-Gov"
18:22:28 <Karen> ...hard to find what to do in so many areas
18:22:42 <Karen> ...My idea was having government data as the central core of everything we are working on
18:22:51 <Karen> ...every time we talk about whatever issue
18:22:56 <Karen> ...we end up talking about the data
18:23:10 <Karen> ...all sorts of ramifications that lead us to topics of common interest
18:23:17 <Karen> ...So if the core is about gov't data
18:23:22 <Karen> ...then you have to focus on some core things
18:23:32 <Karen> ...make it representable to humans and machines
18:23:46 <Karen> ...usable for people with disabilities, etc.
18:23:49 <Karen> ...and devices
18:23:57 <Karen> ...And ensure the data has provenance attached to it
18:24:03 <Karen> ...and authentication
18:24:11 <Karen> ...so there are issues that cut across everything
18:24:21 <Karen> ...So if we focus here, that would be enough for us to work on
18:24:31 <Karen> ...The discussions are very interesting
18:24:44 <Karen> ...We have limited resources so far
18:24:53 <Karen> ...That is my main concern so far
18:25:08 <Karen> JohnS: the issue of participation and engagement we need to discuss to play back a degree of relevance
18:25:19 <Karen> ...and pick out a number one issue where we can make a real contribution
18:25:28 <Karen> ...For me, that issue for W3C is open data
18:26:02 <Karen> ...it's an issue that is well aligned
18:26:12 <Karen> ...gov'ts will look to W3C for how to do this
18:26:24 <Karen> ...allows us to explore some other areas that policy makers are interested in
18:26:36 <Karen> ...Data is the closest issue to W3C standards and specifications
18:26:54 <Karen> Kevin: When you have decision makers needing to communicate in a higher level way
18:27:02 <Karen> ...and now they are tasked with decision-making
18:27:09 <Karen> Suzanne: In the data world
18:27:17 <Karen> ...projects need money to thrive and move forward
18:27:26 <Karen> ...there are a number of opportunities for data projects
18:27:38 <Karen> ...but there is fear among decision-makers about data projects
18:27:46 <Karen> ...I have gotten some money
18:28:11 <Karen> ...especially in areas of data quality best practice
18:28:26 <Karen> Joe: the maritime motivation was probably not alone
18:28:39 <Karen> Suzanne: yes, when Navy realized that its partner were not just military
18:28:50 <Karen> Joe: So all these mechanisms are about bringing data together
18:29:00 <Karen> ...open data so it can interoperable and then obtain the benefits
18:29:12 <Karen> ...So back to maritime, was there an ROI at all, or was it crisis-driven
18:29:33 <Karen> Suzanne: In this case, it's an argument of what we avoid: loss of life, property, prevent terrorist activities
18:29:43 <Karen> ...It was recognized that everyone had pieces to the puzzle
18:29:58 <Karen> ...create a forum where people can bring their pieces together
18:30:05 <Karen> Joe: I think the gov't gets much of thigns
18:30:10 <Karen> s/this
18:30:16 <josema> zakim, who's here?
18:30:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see AIA, Brand?, ??P3, OAmbur?
18:30:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see heatherwest, OAmbur, mib_9cb9y50b, edsu, rrahman, Daniel_Bennett, Karen, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, trackbot
18:30:21 <Karen> ...I guess I agree with John that the open data helps
18:30:27 <Karen> ...good way to publish this data
18:30:33 <Karen> Suzanne: So create scenarios around that?
18:30:36 <Karen> Joe: yes
18:30:48 <Karen> ...The Web today, amazing number of 'proof of concept' experiments
18:31:01 <Karen> ...no real decided way to stitch stuff together
18:31:23 <Karen> ...Library of Congress has preservation of metadata initiative; how does this fit into other areas?
18:31:28 <Karen> ...So many standards and efforst
18:31:30 <Karen> s/efforts
18:31:45 <Karen> ..I created this page and this gov't person asked me how to put it up in XML
18:31:52 <Karen> Suzanne: yes, there are a lot of competing standards
18:32:07 <Karen> ...I don't think gov't should make a decision around a single standard, rather let the communities decide
18:32:18 <Karen> ...and have W3C help to enable the types of standards to adovcate
18:32:23 <Karen> ...right now it's an issue of discovery
18:32:33 <Karen> ...Maybe dialogue will switch to access
18:32:50 <Karen> ...Can't get people know I exist unless I show up somewhere; same with my agency
18:32:59 <Karen> ...Let's solve discovery, then hone in on access
18:33:13 <Karen> Jose: One thing we have discussed is how to find a given taxonomy or ontology
18:33:29 <Karen> ...Semantic Interoperability Center in Europe
18:33:38 <Karen> ...people are sending their schemas for gov't projects
18:33:41 <Karen> ...to this repository
18:33:45 <Karen> ...a clearing process
18:34:02 <Karen> ...you get the schema, and they propose some changes, document, and publish it to benefit others
18:34:20 <Karen> ...Usually a package for XML schema, documentation, license you can download free
18:34:26 <Karen> ...There still are problems
18:34:43 <Karen> ...I am not a SemWeb expert, but we are compiling use cases based on RDFa
18:35:01 <Karen> ...first thing I thought was that we need a small ontology to describe those use cases
18:35:16 <Karen> Diane: One issue we have had to resolve is a taxonomy recognition process
18:35:25 <Karen> ...People go out an build different taxonomies
18:35:30 <Karen> ...We have various groups
18:35:38 <Karen> ...doing conformance checking
18:35:57 <Karen> ...to XBRL Int'l and we have an in-house process for conformance to specifications
18:36:09 <Karen> ...So we have become a de facto clearing house
18:36:10 <josema> and again, I'd love W3C could go ahead with Ontaria sometime in the near future http://www.w3.org/2004/ontaria/
18:36:24 <Karen> ...Maybe somehow incorporating best practices for ontology recognition
18:36:29 <Karen> ...maybe not so broad
18:36:32 <Karen> [heads nod]
18:36:48 <Karen> Daniel: We are in US, so there is term ROI
18:36:55 <Karen> ...I think we should steer clear of it
18:37:06 <Karen> ...idea in Canada and other places of good government
18:37:24 <Karen> ...We can confront issue of limited resources; we are looking for ways to maximize resources
18:37:29 <Karen> ...and we can explain the costs
18:37:38 <Karen> ...A lot of gov'ts value good government
18:37:47 <Karen> ...We are using term open government data
18:37:57 <Karen> ...looking at best practices and new technologies and putting in use caes
18:38:05 <Karen> ...We are also helping to build the tools and software
18:38:27 <Karen> ...One thing we can think about is not just the data but the techniques, best practices, and tools we are putting out there
18:38:37 <Karen> Kevin: Yes, this brings us back to mission of group
18:38:56 <Karen> Ken: One concern I have, is at what point do the standards become a barrier to adoption?
18:39:23 <Karen> ...According to Yashir Bashir, he has suffered from making the adoption of standards to be a barrier
18:39:32 <Karen> ...So this has to be adopted by developers
18:39:41 <Karen> ...We should voice a concern that standards could become a barrier
18:39:57 <Karen> ...the most important thing is the start of adoption; perfect should not be enemy of the good
18:40:24 <Karen> Suzanne: To the point of not focusing on ROI, but there is a focus on agility
18:40:44 <Karen> ...private industry is about agility and willingness to adapt to change
18:41:23 <Karen> ...I'm trying to bring this into gov't; part of it is educating gov't leaders
18:41:40 <Karen> ...If you don't change, the citizens are going to solve their own problems
18:41:51 <Karen> ...their solutions will put you out of a role
18:42:05 <Karen> Daniel: Are you saying that gov't could be co-opted successfully?
18:42:26 <Karen> Suzanne: I read an article about a small township in the UK; they used social media to solve a common problem that everyone wanted solved
18:42:38 <Karen> ...Then gov't realized they needed to make themselves relevant
18:43:16 <Karen> ...My job is to advise senior leaders; to use emotional intelligence to motivate them to learn
18:43:38 <Karen> Kevin: Beth stressed yesterday the role of e-rolemaking
18:43:46 <Karen> ...you are opening yourself up to comment
18:43:59 <Karen> ...now you can comment so quickly
18:44:05 <Karen> ...that may create some tension
18:44:12 <Karen> ...will put different spins on things 
18:44:26 <Karen> Daniel: you have joined W3C eGov to save your government [laughs]
18:44:35 <Karen> Joe: So what does W3C do for gov't agencies
18:44:51 <Karen> ...There is a Web with file server; we're talking about open data
18:44:56 <Daniel_Bennett> thanks Karen for that
18:44:58 <Karen> ...would be great to use a standard for gov't agencies
18:45:13 <Karen> ...so a single file that pointed to these data files or data repositories
18:45:16 <Karen> ...how do I find this stuff
18:45:26 <Karen> ...I go to Google, file type colon, XML
18:45:29 <Karen> ...that's really not fair
18:45:31 <Karen> ...that works
18:45:49 <Karen> ...I would love it if W3C would say, here are the XML files, or the open data we are publishing
18:45:58 <Karen> Diane: So here is another example
18:46:05 <Karen> ...SEC put up RSS feeds for new exhibits
18:46:10 <Karen> ...for filings
18:46:20 <Karen> ...other thing is that at 3:00am they post to an FTP site
18:46:27 <Karen> ...the previous days' actions
18:46:39 <Karen> ...they are working on some Web services architecture
18:46:49 <Karen> ...but today there are some really simple things you can do today so that we can find it
18:47:05 <Karen> Daniel: FTP uses file discovery; URL discovery is being done to some extent through RSS
18:47:09 <Karen> ...by use it's restricted
18:47:13 <Karen> ...Something called site map
18:47:18 <Karen> ...idea of repository schema
18:47:25 <Karen> ...to allow people to do full discovery of gov't data
18:47:32 <Karen> Joe: This is a need
18:47:42 <Karen> ...we go to a Web site and we are confronted with the home page
18:47:48 <Karen> ...terrific for me as a human
18:48:00 <Karen> ...but I cannot find what gov't is posting for open government data
18:48:10 <Karen> ...whether we use this standard or not
18:48:18 <Karen> Kevin: So are there any examples out there yet?
18:48:26 <Karen> JohnS: So thinking about history
18:48:34 <Karen> ...this is the kind of question that we can put to the rest of W3C
18:48:42 <Karen> ...we are busy trying to figure out how to do open gov't data
18:48:47 <Karen> ...particularly this discovery piece
18:48:56 <Karen> ...It would be helpful if W3C could say something useful
18:49:02 <Karen> ...becomes a question for the SemWeb guys
18:49:11 <Karen> ...that's exactly the question we could pitch
18:49:19 <Karen> Joe: So maybe there is a hierarchy of this
18:49:31 <Karen> ...We already know what's coming when it comes to the SemWeb folks
18:49:38 <Karen> ...Maybe there should be three ways to do it
18:49:40 <Karen> ...Level one
18:49:48 <Karen> Diane: We call that an adoption model
18:49:55 <Karen> Joe: Gov't folks are really busy
18:50:08 <Karen> ...so find a way to have them be conforming without spending six months
18:50:24 <Karen> Kevin: I have expressed my thoughts on why RDF is not an ideal solution for all gov't data
18:50:34 <Karen> Joe: Idea of transforming XML into RDF
18:50:45 <Karen> ...that's an important thing to think about, but it's not the holy grail
18:50:54 <Karen> ...gov't just wants to get data out on the Web
18:51:03 <Karen> Diane: So that may be a use case, how to get data out on the Web
18:51:10 <Karen> Jose: Something that happens all the time?
18:51:46 <Karen> ...Why do you think Semantic Web is selling it alone? We are working on other things, too.
18:52:03 <Karen> ...We have been discussing within W3C a long time. It's what is the right tool for the job
18:52:13 <Karen> ...maybe we need best practices to identify some caes
18:52:16 <Karen> s/cases
18:52:33 <Karen> Daniel: So this brings me back to discovery of things
18:52:37 <Karen> ...the icon
18:52:54 <Karen> s/icon/ICAAN
18:53:02 <Karen> ...there was a point that was an rfc
18:53:10 <Karen> ...general rules that domain should be given out
18:53:25 <Karen> ...that was an issue; it moved to GSA to make rules 
18:53:35 <Karen> ...dotgov is a US domain
18:53:41 <Karen> ...a lot of issues around that
18:53:58 <Karen> ...in US we have a crazy point where .gov is non-federal
18:54:11 <josema> s/Semantic Web is selling it/W3C is selling Semantic Web
18:54:12 <Karen> ...in terms of discovery, if we assume a lot about the domains
18:54:25 <Karen> ...we are investing a lot in it
18:54:38 <Karen> ...it has not been brought up in the conversation and it's not a small thing
18:54:45 <Karen> ...we are just now questioning it
18:54:53 <Karen> ...In US there is a semi-official use of .org
18:54:59 <Karen> ...quasi type organizations
18:55:08 <Karen> ...go to USPS.org and USPS.gov
18:55:11 <Karen> ...we should talk about it
18:55:23 <Karen> Kevin: Most localities were stuck with .us
18:55:37 <Karen> ...we were buying .orgs to differentiate the Web sites between gov and commerce
18:55:46 <Karen> ...working with GSA they did a federal register process ruling
18:55:51 <Karen> ...there needed to be an identity
18:55:59 <Karen> Daniel: We should talk about a best practice
18:56:29 <Karen> ...people come to trust these things; some regulated and some less regulated more domains, top-level and unrelated (unfortunate in my opinion)
18:56:48 <Karen> ChrisJ: I know this group is chartered by this May
18:56:57 <Karen> ...so do we need to focus realistically?
18:57:02 <Karen> Kevin: True
18:57:14 <Karen> ...There are certain strategies and issues in the paper
18:57:27 <Karen> ...If we can get solutions and best practices, wonderful
18:57:34 <Karen> ...but there may be year two and three work
18:57:51 <Karen> ChrisJ: I would be hesitant to know whether things we ID for May are really best practices
18:58:03 <Karen> ...maybe we look at what things can best satisfy; what are the criteria
18:58:13 <Karen> Suzanne: I think there are pockets of knowledge we can leverage
18:58:31 <Karen> ...have not reached the tipping point yet, but there are early explorers who have gained some success
18:58:50 <Karen> ...tangible examples others are looking at and can take back to agencies
18:58:57 <Karen> Diane: So maybe surface those in US gov't
18:59:07 <Karen> ...like Andrew [] at EPA
18:59:23 <Karen> ...some good use cases and can work to substantiate within other agencies
18:59:29 <Karen> Kevin: Yes, like the open site map initiative
18:59:42 <Karen> ...it's not a crown jewel, but is working well
18:59:48 <Karen> ...when we talk about architecture
19:00:01 <Karen> ...the World Bank initiative is about helping to build an architecture
19:00:11 <Karen> ...but they cannot invest money in big architectures
19:00:16 <Karen> ...keep limited solutions in context
19:00:32 <Karen> Suzanne: examples at state and federal levels like virtualalabama.gov
19:00:35 <josema> q?
19:00:40 <Karen> ...whatever TSA stands for under DHS
19:00:54 <Karen> ...they engage their citizenry on the policies for screening at the airports
19:01:09 <Karen> ...they were early explorers of engaging citizens on how to improve screening at the airports
19:01:21 <Karen> ...story is that there was a lot of vulgarity at the start
19:01:35 <Karen> ...lesson learned is to let people vent and screen the responses for the good ideas
19:01:43 <Karen> ...ignore the bad and hone in on the good
19:01:58 <Karen> ...they identified good suggestions and tested at pilot sites
19:02:13 <Karen> ...now there is more of a partnership approach and the citizens responded favorably
19:02:30 <Karen> Ken: NAPA collaboration project has examples of social media
19:02:36 <Karen> Suzanne: I am an agency member to that group
19:02:45 <Karen> ...I learned about by sitting in on collaboration project meetings
19:03:10 <Karen> Kevin: So going back under the open gov't data section to bring this to closure and review
19:03:26 <Karen> (Kevin re-reads document)
19:04:18 <Karen> ...What are the thoughts?
19:04:47 <Karen> Jose: We compared a number of issues we thought should be discussed here
19:05:07 <Karen> Diane: I would keep XBRL in there, but it's a use case under multichannel and versioning, much like London Gazette
19:05:09 <josema> s/compared/compiled
19:05:16 <Karen> ...as illustrations of how one standard has done it
19:05:20 <Karen> ...then look at legal XML
19:05:42 <Karen> Ray: What do you mean by metadata standardization
19:05:59 <Karen> Jose: If there is a need to have an open segment protocol, idea is to have some standard
19:06:09 <Karen> ...point people to sources that are for machines and not humans
19:06:13 <Karen> ...discover data sources
19:06:22 <Karen> Ray: so not standardizing the metadata but the protocol
19:06:36 <Karen> Joe: But there are a number of metadata standards
19:06:41 <Karen> ...I used XMP for example
19:06:51 <Karen> ...a wrapper for RDF, a wrapper for Dublin Core
19:07:04 <Karen> ...XBRL is same; have own metadata standards that map to Dublin Core
19:07:13 <Karen> ...but don't use dc title; don't replicate it
19:07:21 <Karen> ...a lot of metadata standards at low level
19:07:28 <Karen> ...even data has different formats for date
19:07:38 <Karen> ...would be nice to have an adoption model to help people figure out
19:07:54 <Karen> Ray: Hasn't ISO been trying to do this for 15 years?
19:07:59 <josema> s/segment/sitemap for metadata
19:08:01 <Karen> ...maybe that gets to how that statement is problematic
19:08:09 <Karen> ...when I was dealing with standards at OASI
19:08:30 <Karen> s/OASIS
19:08:39 <Karen> ...so how do we standardize those things
19:08:47 <Karen> ...like Dublin Core doesn't talk about what you put in it
19:09:08 <Karen> ...I would break it into standards for how to show you are using metadata and how you fill it
19:09:12 <Karen> ...break those two apart
19:09:34 <Karen> Ray: W3C joined LOC ten years ago because of standardization of metadata
19:09:43 <Karen> ...it means nothing more than RDF to the W3C
19:09:56 <Karen> Joe: LOC preservation of metadata goes beyond Dublin Core
19:10:02 <Karen> ...why wouldn't we coordinate this with you?
19:10:08 <Karen> Ray: yes, when you brought it up
19:10:23 <Karen> ...I wanted to mention that premise does represent...LOC does coordinate it...
19:10:25 <mib_9cb9y50b> PREMIS
19:10:39 <Karen> PREMIS committee 
19:10:52 <Karen> ...if standardizing on presevation metadata, that's a good start
19:11:00 <Karen> ...good example of a mature data dictionary
19:11:03 <Karen> ...could take to W3C
19:11:13 <Karen> Joe: yes, hundreds of people who are experts
19:11:19 <Karen> Ray: 2.0 is latest version
19:11:26 <Karen> Joe: Yes, we should look at that
19:11:37 <Karen> ...XMP doesn't know anything about PREMIS
19:11:50 <Karen> Joe: so why not build up front rather than after thought
19:12:02 <Karen> Daniel: I remember another conversation
19:12:06 <Karen> ...that had XSLT
19:12:12 <Karen> ...between mods and compel report
19:12:24 <Karen> ...my point is that W3C provides standard for XSL
19:12:34 <Karen> Ray: but mapping form mods to Dublin Core is useless
19:12:40 <Karen> ...what are you trying to describe?
19:12:53 <Karen> ...catalogue a book or describe something?
19:13:09 <Karen> Daniel: Pointing out you are using XML for the metadata standard, which is a W3C standard
19:13:15 <Karen> Ray: I'm not seeing that
19:13:21 <Karen> Daniel: LOC moved to XML standard
19:13:40 <Karen> Joe: We want to get more specific than just say use XML
19:13:51 <Karen> Ray: LOC invented basis character format
19:13:56 <Karen> ...that didn't conform to any syntax
19:14:00 <Karen> ...existed for 40 years
19:14:08 <Karen> ...ten years ago we converted it to XML
19:14:08 <mib_9cb9y50b> diane is using mibbit
19:14:18 <Karen> Joe: Are there search engines that operate against Dublin Core
19:14:24 <Karen> ...Google ignores metadata
19:14:35 <Karen> ...people don't do it because it's not searchable for people
19:14:45 <Karen> Ray: You can search by Dublin Core on LOC data
19:14:50 <Karen> ...using search protocols
19:14:56 <Karen> Joe: I would like a URL; that would be helpful
19:15:01 <Karen> ...a lot of people know know that
19:15:25 <Karen> ...if people saw value of putting in data, they will do it
19:15:34 <Karen> ...obvious long-term value to have info available
19:15:46 <Karen> Kevin: What is happening with [?]
19:15:50 <Karen> Ray: not sure
19:15:58 <Karen> Daniel: bring use cases
19:16:05 <Karen> ...and be higher level
19:16:17 <Karen> ...doesn't mean we should not show the weeds 
19:16:24 <Karen> ...wonder about the tool sets
19:16:31 <Karen> ...are we building standards or pointing them out
19:16:44 <Karen> Diane: one of things because of popularity of RDF
19:16:55 <Karen> ...and Search Monkey and Semantic searches
19:16:59 <Karen> ...I am working on XBRL
19:17:16 <Karen> ...trying to somehow create a use case of generating RDF from your content
19:17:19 <Karen> Joe: GRDDL
19:17:26 <Karen> Diane: We are using some of that
19:17:31 <Karen> ...to generate XBRL triples
19:17:34 <Karen> ...at the bleeding edge
19:17:45 <Karen> ...so we can make XBRL repositories searchable
19:17:54 <Karen> ...but for data.gov content, it's not searchable
19:18:00 <Karen> ...in a way anyone has an engine
19:18:08 <Karen> ...I would like to see some recommendations around that model
19:18:11 <Karen> ...and use RDF 
19:18:23 <Karen> Daniel: that was issue of the first question
19:18:28 <Karen> ...should things be in raw data
19:18:38 <Karen> Diane: that is a good standing question
19:18:45 <Karen> ...if you have raw data, how do you parse through it
19:18:55 <Karen> ...yes, please put up raw data, but what's the next step
19:19:00 <Karen> ...notification is first step
19:19:09 <Karen> Daniel: XSL and GRDDL point to the answers
19:19:18 <Karen> ...you get to everything else you want
19:19:27 <Karen> ...someone else can lay over whatever semantic they want
19:19:36 <Karen> Diane: Who gets the semantic layer on top of it?
19:19:42 <Karen> ...the gov't or outside vendors?
19:19:45 <Karen> ...a big question
19:19:58 <Karen> Joe: If we had one file that was a pointer to all the data on your Web site
19:20:08 <Karen> ...then maybe some of metadata needs to be on the Web site
19:20:12 <Karen> ...There is data out there
19:20:16 <Karen> ...file out there for Senators
19:20:23 <Karen> ...container for each Senator
19:20:30 <Karen> ...no metadata, no schema, in XML
19:20:35 <Karen> ...they don't want to change that file
19:20:39 <Karen> ...could have this other file
19:20:44 <Karen> ...where real metadata could live
19:20:48 <Karen> ...go back to that adoption model
19:21:00 <Karen> ...I would like a title for that, vs  PREMIS data at high end
19:21:03 <Karen> ...have stuff running
19:21:08 <Karen> ...long term get to what we really want
19:21:12 <Karen> Kevin: two more comments
19:21:23 <Karen> Diane: Who generates the semantics
19:21:36 <Karen> ...as an outside vendor, who says my triples are right?
19:21:41 <Karen> ...there is a missing layer
19:21:45 <Karen> Joe: human brains
19:21:52 <Karen> ...you cannot just automate that understanding
19:22:06 <Karen> JohnS: my comment is that gov'ts spend a lot of time defining what is meant by certain things
19:22:16 <Karen> ...a public notice is a legislatively defined concept
19:22:26 <Karen> ...a parking place is a a legislatively defined concept
19:22:36 <Karen> ...placed onto the physical world is the road
19:22:48 <Karen> ...I don't see anyway legislative bodies can escape 
19:23:00 <Karen> ...the responsibility to describe the semantic concepts they use
19:23:05 <Karen> ...governments govern
19:23:12 <Karen> ...legislators legislate
19:23:17 <Karen> ...lawyers disagree
19:23:29 <Karen> ...question of figuring out what to do
19:23:32 <Karen> ...put to this group
19:23:41 <Karen> ...useful work is finding these design patterns
19:23:48 <Karen> ...try to tailor some things
19:24:03 <Karen> ...if you are trying to achieve this, and are starting from here, then here is some stuff that could work out
19:24:24 <Karen> ...Provide standards, tools you can try
19:24:24 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:24:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
19:24:32 <Karen> ...Surface what some of those patterns look like
19:24:37 <Karen> ...We have five or six already
19:24:49 <Karen> ...XBRL, RDFa; a range using W3C specs
19:24:54 <Karen> ...starting from here to get there
19:24:59 <Karen> ...that would be a good process to do
19:25:06 <Karen> ChrisJ: There are so many types of gov't data
19:25:16 <Karen> ...environmental, financial, legislative, books, etc
19:25:27 <Karen> ...as a group do we want to weigh into domain-specific
19:25:31 <Karen> ...or non-domain specific
19:25:40 <Karen> ...that's what I was wondering
19:25:51 <Karen> Suzanne: I would be thrilled if an agency would cough up a data set
19:25:57 <Karen> ...with data.gov just around the corner
19:26:01 <Karen> ...let's see what they do with it
19:26:09 <Karen> ...let activities inform how W3C can facilitate
19:26:13 <Karen> ...an opportunity of timing
19:26:16 <Karen> ...data.gov
19:26:23 <Karen> ...Vivek wants this thing done yesterday
19:26:28 <Karen> ...we are not going to wait a long time
19:26:32 <Karen> ...to see what agencies do
19:26:39 <Karen> ...Regarding data reference model
19:26:52 <Karen> ...I don't think comment fits within the scope
19:27:05 <Karen> ...number four [?]
19:27:25 <Karen> Suzanne: When DRM first came out, the agencies didn't understand it right away
19:27:34 <Karen> ...but they weren't sure how to implement
19:27:39 <Karen> ...we came up with a framework
19:27:58 <Karen> ...explain business problem you are trying to solve
19:28:05 <Karen> ...understand why you exist
19:28:11 <Karen> ...this will inform informatoin for the community 
19:28:16 <Karen> ...that informs the standards
19:28:26 <Karen> ...moving from structured sources to unstructured sources
19:28:31 <Karen> ...then push onto engineering those services
19:28:37 <Karen> ...a three-legged implementation strategy
19:28:45 <Karen> ...OBM didn't publish the implementation strategy
19:28:54 <Karen> ...Agencies asked all these implementation questions
19:28:58 <Karen> ...So I started talking about it
19:29:06 <Karen> ...and we published the draft doc on the wiki
19:29:11 <Karen> ...once they got that guidance
19:29:33 <Karen> ...Everyone then understood what the DRM was about after they understood implementation strategy
19:29:42 <Karen> ...Now latest talk is all those reference models
19:29:49 <Karen> ...so I can build my business cases
19:29:56 <Karen> ...Taxonomies for data, services
19:30:02 <Karen> ...not quite the same things
19:30:07 <Karen> ...around context for information
19:30:13 <Karen> ...XBRL won't work for medical community
19:30:23 <Karen> ...can't have a single taxonomy for gov't
19:30:33 <Karen> ...It's a framework for how to plan for an execute it
19:30:38 <Karen> Jose: Moving on
19:31:22 <Karen> ...Coming up with a common schema
19:31:32 <Karen> ...so gov't agencies can get information
19:31:42 <Karen> ...see if they can feed some of their needs
19:31:59 <Karen> ...my opinion is that this is very difficult to achieve to do this one
19:32:06 <Karen> ...I don't think it will happen soon
19:32:13 <Karen> ...Issue is whether you think this could be useful
19:32:22 <Karen> Ray: It's difficult to achieve, and is a bad idewa
19:32:25 <Karen> s/idea
19:32:35 <Karen> ...would make standards more difficult to understand
19:32:51 <Karen> ...and I say that with 25 years' of standards-making
19:32:58 <Karen> ...all have different templates for standards
19:33:40 <Karen> Daniel: germ of idea that is important
19:34:00 <Karen> ...points out another piece this gets to
19:34:06 <Karen> ...documentation and specifications
19:34:11 <Karen> ...even if you cannot come to an agreement
19:34:21 <Karen> ...at least provide the documentation to explain what you have done
19:34:40 <Karen> ...tell them that if you put stuff up, try to use standard ways to document what you ahve done
19:34:45 <Karen> ...at least make that attempt
19:34:48 <Karen> ...Point of order
19:34:55 <Karen> ...Somewhat brought up data.gov
19:35:04 <Karen> ...my understanding is that this is a Web site
19:35:18 <Karen> ...Is there anyone from data.gov here?
19:35:33 <Karen> Suzanne: My name is on the internal letter that went out to internal agencies
19:35:37 <Karen> ...It happened quickly
19:35:44 <Karen> ...my name is on something I don't quite understand
19:35:56 <Karen> ...there will be an open meeting hosted by Federal CIO council
19:36:04 <Karen> ...coming up soon
19:36:14 <Karen> Daniel: Would they like W3C to participate?
19:36:30 <Karen> Kevin: They are meeting with a variety of organizations about what happens next
19:36:40 <Karen> ...contact information being given, separate site 
19:36:47 <Karen> ...we will post standards for them to evaluate
19:36:55 <Karen> ...I understand that they are putting up data sets
19:37:00 <Karen> ...I think they will use standrads
19:37:17 <Karen> Suzanne: We were given a Web link from DCgov to look at
19:37:26 <Karen> ...like create a catalogue of info for sharing
19:37:52 <josema> http://data.octo.dc.gov/
19:38:46 <Karen> [Kevin pulls up data.gov]
19:38:56 <Karen> Greg: this is to a number of data feeds
19:39:23 <Karen> Joe: Seems like a bad practice
19:39:29 <Karen> Kevin: It's only a portal
19:39:38 <Karen> Greg: The data catalogue is just contents
19:39:49 <Karen> ...what I like is the tabular representation of the data sets
19:39:54 <Karen> ...it's not semantic yet
19:40:01 <Karen> ...So I can see where the metadata is
19:40:05 <Karen> ...and here are some formats
19:40:31 <Karen> ...looks like a version 1.0 of what a data catalogue could be
19:40:44 <Karen> ...Next issues about getting live streams, feeds, not worked out yet
19:40:50 <Karen> ...pagination of data
19:40:56 <Karen> ...developers add by default
19:41:11 <Karen> Joe: Probably thinking they don't want to give you five megs of data
19:41:23 <Karen> ...If I want the year, you aren't going to get unless you go day by day
19:41:30 <Karen> ...that is not opening raw data
19:41:30 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:41:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
19:41:41 <OAmbur> On the issue of whether anyone is using metadata to support queries, AIIM's Interoperable Enterprise Content Management (iECM) Committee plans to conduct a demo of the Content Management Interoperability Services (CMIS) protocol at the AIIM conference in Philadelphia.
19:41:42 <Karen> Daniel: the 800 pound gorilla is not in the room
19:42:08 <Karen> Suzanne: one of strategies we are recommending
19:42:14 <Karen> ...we are ok with idea of being messy up front
19:42:19 <Karen> ...also want the opportunity to learn
19:42:22 <Karen> ...look at the UK
19:42:32 <Karen> ...they are engaging the consumers by asking them for feedback
19:42:35 <Karen> ...I don't have data for a year
19:42:48 <Karen> ...We want to enable that feedback so we can meet an umet expectation
19:42:56 <Karen> ...we won't put out a perfect catalogue at first go
19:43:00 <Karen> ...put out what you know today
19:43:10 <Karen> ...gain some experience and grow it incrementally
19:43:24 <Karen> Diane: Encourage you to talk with SEC and their EDGAR system
19:43:31 <Karen> ...how to build a data repository
19:43:41 <Karen> ...and impact on servers, strategies for modernizing their systems
19:43:49 <Karen> ...there is an office of interactive data
19:43:52 <Karen> Kevin: Time check
19:44:01 <Karen> ...Talk about interoperability
19:44:09 <Karen> ...I think I have a fair grasp of what to document
19:44:18 <Karen> [JohnS head nods]
19:44:30 <Karen> ...let's continue on to multichannel
19:44:36 <Karen> Joe: One point on interoperability
19:44:50 <Karen> ...I really think we need to use the Web for indiv to interoperate data sets
19:45:00 <Karen> ...rather than mash-ups guessing what they want to see
19:45:08 <Karen> ...that's the critical issue with interoperability
19:45:11 <Karen> ...personal data
19:45:23 <Karen> ...I don't think it exists much today
19:45:33 <Karen> ...Census Bureau, you cannot get to raw data
19:45:46 <Karen> Kevin: Multichannel delivery
19:45:53 <Karen> ...What we decided this morning is to focus on mobile delivery
19:45:58 <Karen> ...as most important first channel
19:46:06 <Karen> ...and site some of the other channels such as TV
19:46:18 <Karen> ...any particular standards that exist or don't exit?
19:46:29 <Karen> Daniel: I assume that would be XSL and CSS
19:46:33 <Karen> Diane: Maybe SVG
19:46:37 <Karen> Daniel: Good point
19:46:45 <Karen> ...brings up issue of Flash and PDF
19:46:52 <Karen> ...downloadable fonts
19:47:00 <Karen> ...my Google phone has downloadable fonts
19:47:11 <Karen> ...I can see how things are supposed to look
19:47:19 <Karen> ...because it's CSS I can change on the fly
19:47:36 <Karen> Diane: Other thing is what is the status of XHTML 2.0 and where that is going
19:47:48 <Karen> Jose: What I mentioned this morning also is the mobile Web best practices
19:48:00 <Karen> Diane: Yesterday we talked about HTML and valid HTML
19:48:11 <Karen> ...where the gov't stands on putting up valid pages
19:48:22 <Karen> ...encourage well-formed HTML, XML, and name spaces
19:48:31 <Karen> ...possibly XHTML
19:48:36 <Karen> Kevin: Yes, I strongly agree
19:48:47 <Karen> ...putting our best face forward
19:49:04 <Karen> ...is a necessity
19:49:15 <Karen> Ray: ANyone else who is on the wwwTAG list serve?
19:49:30 <Karen> ...you may want to note that concept of well-formed HTML is not an agreed-up goal
19:49:34 <Karen> ...within W3C at large
19:49:40 <Karen> ...very controversial
19:49:45 <Karen> ...it's an uphill battle
19:49:53 <Karen> Daniel: I disagree with one aspect
19:50:10 <Karen> ...What we don't care is people to lie about what they use
19:50:31 <Karen> ...if they say it's strict XHTML, that it needs to be that thing
19:50:39 <Karen> ...some untruthful gov't sites out there
19:50:48 <Karen> ...be truthful about what you are saying
19:51:03 <Karen> Diane: I bridge between wanting content and wanting well-formed stuff
19:51:11 <Karen> ...intention of getting it to the next outlet
19:51:14 <Karen> Kevin: Absolutely
19:51:28 <Karen> Joe: May be dangerous to ask browser manufacturers
19:51:31 <Karen> ...to not load pages
19:51:41 <Karen> Diane: Then you get Google's home page
19:51:53 <Karen> Daniel: They have error things on it
19:52:00 <Karen> Joe: I don't think they would do it
19:52:03 <gregelin> gregelin has joined #egov
19:52:04 <Karen> ...not in their interest
19:52:15 <Karen> ...over next 50-10,000 years
19:52:20 <Karen> ...that's why I like xML
19:52:30 <Karen> Ray: Have you seen XML 5 proposal?
19:52:41 <Karen> ...It was put forth, but not well received at W3C
19:52:51 <Karen> Joe: I would like to use document object model based tools
19:52:58 <Karen> ...so we need to have the file well formed
19:53:07 <Karen> ...otherwise we are back to screen scraping
19:53:20 <Karen> JohnS: So we could make a case for having well formed XHTML
19:53:29 <Karen> ...so instead of saying this is an end in themselves
19:53:38 <Karen> ...talk about them being a means to an end
19:53:41 <josema> I agree, it's not a matter of MUST but of SHOULD and the benefits it brings
19:53:44 <Karen> ...use examples
19:53:53 <Karen> ...take care over these thigns
19:53:55 <Karen> s/things
19:54:02 <Karen> ...so people know quality to expect
19:54:16 <Karen> ...argument and case needs to presented against an end goal they are trying to achieve
19:54:27 <Karen> Kevin: you are better prepared to do more if you follow this approach
19:54:35 <Karen> ...Identification and Authentication
19:54:38 <Karen> ...I think we are good here
19:54:41 <Karen> ...what else?
19:54:49 <Karen> ...anything else to cite in the paper?
19:54:53 <Karen> Joe: DITA
19:55:08 <Karen> ...Darwin Information Technical Architecture
19:55:17 <Karen> Diane: good example of an open tool kit
19:55:30 <Karen> Daniel: If we go down that road, we should mention other things
19:55:37 <Karen> ...say what's out there
19:55:49 <Karen> Joe: Whole issue of W3C vs OASIS standards
19:56:04 <Karen> Kevin: We should cite work that has already been done
19:56:20 <Karen> Jose: Unless it's proprietary or the licensing model is in conflict with what we propose
19:56:39 <Karen> ChrisJ: On Thursday I mentioned issue of authentication
19:56:50 <Karen> ...verifying that someone is a person vs a machine
19:57:01 <Karen> ...are there any best practices for dealing with spam comments?
19:57:03 <josema> I think it's not OASIS vs. W3C but OASIS + W3C + IETF +...
19:57:09 <Karen> Daniel: One of most troublesome areas
19:57:14 <Karen> ...what happened in Congress
19:57:20 <Zakim> +rachel
19:57:38 <Karen> ...They said that idea of what makes humans better than computers is pattern recognition
19:57:39 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:57:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
19:57:51 <Karen> ...but not all humans can detect (if you have disabilities)
19:58:03 <Karen> ...because section 508 deals with that
19:58:15 <Karen> ...they decided for plain text logic models
19:58:19 <Karen> ...kind of funny
19:58:25 <Karen> ...they were pretty simple
19:58:29 <Karen> ...but it's a huge issue
19:58:37 <Karen> ...when I was coming up with legislation
19:58:48 <Karen> ...there was issue of whether you want agents to authenticate themselves
19:59:20 <Karen> ...we don't have a good answer
19:59:25 <Karen> ...a lot of people are using open id
19:59:29 <Karen> ...one of points of it
19:59:34 <Karen> ...domain key issues bring it up
19:59:41 <Karen> ...hard to id who is human or not
19:59:48 <Karen> ...but rather audit back where they came from
19:59:57 <Karen> ...and be sure they are who they say they are
20:00:01 <Karen> ...so then you can block in future
20:00:10 <Karen> ...so get to it afterwards and have an audit trail
20:00:13 <Karen> ...a huge issue
20:00:18 <Karen> Kevin: We covered a lot
20:00:27 <Karen> ...we talked about cookie privacy thing within authentication
20:00:43 <Karen> ...still continue the non-use of cookies
20:00:50 <Karen> ...to understand who is using and viewing
20:01:00 <Karen> Daniel: the Web is stateless; so session id
20:01:08 <Karen> ...client, server, IP 
20:01:20 <Karen> ...saying we are opening ourselves up to a lot of problems
20:01:38 <Karen> Kevin: any tangible focus on long-term data management?
20:01:48 <Karen> ...We cited a lot of stuff there
20:02:00 <Karen> Jose: I was still thinking about repository schemas
20:02:09 <Karen> ...whether a need to have a mechanism for machine to understand
20:02:15 <Karen> ...how Web sites are being built
20:02:24 <Karen> ...goes in line with idea of a site map protocol for metadata
20:02:31 <Karen> ...I'm brain storming right now
20:02:41 <Karen> Diane: Some back reference to Tim's article on cool URLs
20:02:52 <Karen> ...as another use case of how they are referencing in the UK
20:02:57 <Karen> ...JohnS's example
20:03:01 <Karen> ...help inform people
20:03:08 <Karen> ...structure things better
20:03:16 <Karen> Ray: You are talking about URL templates?
20:03:20 <Karen> Daniel: Weird thing
20:03:23 <josema> s/how Web sites/how Web site URLs
20:03:30 <Karen> ...a difference between URL templating and URL discovery
20:03:41 <Karen> ...hard to discover based on template
20:04:00 <Karen> ...cannot always describe a repository of documents
20:04:05 <Karen> ...purely by URL template
20:04:12 <Karen> Ray: Are you referring to IETF work?
20:04:17 <Karen> Daniel: A little bit
20:04:25 <Karen> Ray: May want to list that
20:04:28 <Karen> ...the IETF
20:04:40 <Karen> ...they have a standard in development on URL templates
20:04:45 <Karen> Kevin: anything else?
20:04:54 <Karen> ChrisJ: We didn't talk about multimedia
20:05:01 <Karen> ...I think there may be different issues that arise
20:05:07 <Karen> ...the formats are all proprietary
20:05:19 <Karen> Kevin: A bit of an action plan
20:05:24 <Karen> ...is the future year two
20:05:34 <Karen> ...What I committed to do is a 2-3 page summary 
20:05:39 <Karen> ...of action items and next steps
20:05:46 <Karen> ...which will be posted on W3C site
20:05:55 <Karen> ...Some people volunteered at dinner to take some sections
20:06:08 <Karen> ...Any sub-committees that want to take owner ship of these pieces
20:06:11 <Karen> ...and try to draft something
20:06:20 <Karen> ...Our comment close date is 26 April
20:06:27 <Karen> ...publish date in May
20:06:33 <Karen> ...So bring to closure by third week in April
20:06:42 <Karen> ...if any group or individual wants to run with it
20:06:52 <Karen> Diane: I don't have time to do a whole section
20:06:57 <Karen> ...maybe break out a use case
20:07:10 <Karen> ...maybe on the multichannel delivery and on long-term data management
20:07:26 <Karen> Suzanne: I can contribute 
20:07:32 <Karen> ...but not write a whole section
20:07:42 <Karen> ...contribute to the long-term data management
20:07:48 <Karen> ...and global management
20:07:57 <Karen> ...changing way we think about data as a global asset
20:08:00 <Karen> ...who owns the data
20:08:03 <Karen> ...change of thought
20:08:14 <Karen> ...maybe part of the shift is from ownership to stewardship
20:08:29 <Karen> ...look at people who steward that the data as being responsible for sharing
20:08:34 <Karen> ...Keep sharing in mind up front
20:08:40 <Karen> ...for consumers known and unknown
20:08:46 <Karen> Kevin: This is a blank slate right now
20:09:00 <Karen> ...Chris Testa has drafted some work in long-term data-management
20:09:08 <Karen> ...This morning's discussion embellished upon the thinking
20:09:14 <Karen> ...So that could be a collaborative effort
20:09:19 <Karen> Jose: Process wise
20:09:26 <Karen> ...So for those who want to contribute
20:09:32 <Karen> ...you should formally joined the group
20:09:42 <Karen> ...and you need to go through two to three stesp
20:09:45 <Karen> s/steps
20:09:52 <Karen> ...fill out a couple forms
20:10:10 <Karen> Diane: Please send the links
20:10:16 <Karen> Kevin: It's off the wiki
20:10:38 <Karen> Kevin: So I'll get that out by Monday
20:10:55 <Karen> Ken: I am not a member, but would be interested in the social media aspects
20:10:59 <Karen> ...not sure what next steps
20:11:11 <Karen> Jose: So it's easy to do
20:11:21 <Karen> ...please send me an email since I will be traveling
20:11:30 <Karen> ...remind me, those of you who want to contribute
20:11:38 <Karen> ...and I will send you IE form
20:11:43 <Karen> ...group participation is open
20:11:54 <Karen> Kevin: This has been a great two days
20:12:03 <Karen> ...We have talked about a lot of different things
20:12:03 <Daniel_Bennett> link to the Repository Schema info http://advocatehope.org/tech-tidbits/repository-schema
20:12:09 <Karen> ...We have addressed many areas
20:12:16 <Karen> ...of what is accomplishable short-term
20:12:22 <Karen> ...What about long term
20:12:26 <Karen> Suzanne: Grow the group
20:13:21 <Karen> Karen: Yes, we have some recruiting and outreach work to do
20:13:37 <Karen> ...some of attendees are at policy levels, not as technical
20:13:53 <Karen> ...We will follow-up to invite the right people from those agencies to participate
20:14:24 <Karen> Kevin: yes, and we have our day jobs
20:14:32 <Karen> ChrisJ: In the second year
20:14:41 <Karen> ...I could see us formulating more specific technical questions
20:14:49 <Karen> ...and then we could bring people in from the outside
20:14:58 <Karen> ...some more targeted efforts to develop best practices
20:15:08 <Karen> Ken: Could I suggest invite someone else
20:15:24 <Karen> ...Josh Tolber
20:15:29 <Karen> Kevin: He is on the list
20:15:35 <Karen> Jose: So process wise
20:15:39 <Karen> ...how W3C works
20:15:43 <Karen> ...the plan forward
20:15:50 <Karen> ...is that Kevin will produce a summary report
20:16:01 <Karen> ...after than we will work on sections of the report
20:16:05 <Karen> ...through 26 April
20:16:12 <Karen> ...we are also getting comments on the public mailing list
20:16:20 <Karen> ...The group is chartered through end of May 2009
20:16:29 <Karen> ...Then we need to decide if we are done (which we are not)
20:16:36 <Karen> ...We need to propose a charter for the next one or two years
20:16:42 <Karen> ...Membership approves the charter
20:16:45 <Karen> ...that's how things work
20:16:57 <Karen> ...I know there are members in the room
20:17:04 <Karen> ...I don't expect there to be a problem
20:17:10 <Karen> ...I don't work for W3C personally
20:17:23 <Karen> ...My position is funded by CTIC, I am a fellow
20:17:28 <Karen> ...and I need to renew my fellowship
20:17:34 <Karen> ...and I don't envision a problem
20:17:47 <Karen> ...We are challenged to resource the work
20:17:50 <Karen> ...more people
20:17:53 <Karen> ...more funding
20:18:00 <Karen> ...so we can organize events, travel
20:18:19 <Karen> Kevin: I spoke with Tim in January
20:18:28 <Karen> ...he understands importance of linked gov't data
20:18:34 <Karen> ...feel that we will get his strong support
20:18:43 <Karen> ...Also with data.gov and other initiatives
20:18:52 <Karen> ...they know they cannot do it themselves
20:18:59 <Karen> ...reference to possible funding to do some work
20:19:04 <Karen> ...to help groups get to their goals
20:19:13 <Karen> ...that is a possibility for this group and others
20:19:18 <Karen> ...Other thing to throw out
20:19:26 <Karen> ...We had a collaboration with World Bank and OASIS
20:19:29 <Karen> ...a one-day workshop
20:19:39 <Karen> ...Oleg Petrov introduced himself
20:19:45 <Karen> ...they have invited anyone here to participate
20:19:51 <Karen> ...Please let me know and I'll get you the invite
20:19:55 <Karen> ...It is going to be broadcast
20:19:59 <Karen> ...and streamed on demand
20:20:04 <Karen> ...given the focus of the World Bank
20:20:09 <Karen> ...will be a variety of locations
20:20:15 <josema> s/workshop/workshop on April, 17th
20:20:19 <Karen> ...and then they will build their events
20:20:24 <Karen> ...It has been a bit bumpy
20:20:36 <Karen> ...OASIS resurrected its eGov activity after we started
20:20:43 <Karen> ...and World Bank is getting its footing here
20:20:52 <Karen> ...So I look forward to a productive year
20:21:03 <Karen> Jose: Anything else?
20:21:21 <Karen> Kevin: Give you my personal thanks for your commitment and participation
20:21:29 <Karen> ...Great energy in the room yesterday and all day today
20:21:36 <Karen> ...Intellectually stimulating and productive
20:21:44 <Karen> ...moving to a really great product to help government
20:21:47 <Karen> s/governments
20:21:55 <Karen> Jose: Lastly, I wnat to thank Karen
20:22:16 <Karen> s/wnat
20:22:32 <josema> s/wnat/want
20:22:50 <josema> thank you so much, Karen! :)
20:23:22 <josema> rrsagent, make minutes
20:23:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
20:24:08 <josema> [ADJOURNED]
20:24:14 <josema> rrsagent, make minutes
20:24:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-egov-minutes.html josema
20:24:38 <Zakim> -AIA
20:24:44 <Zakim> -rachel
20:25:37 <rrahman> rrahman has left #egov
20:26:02 <Zakim> -Brand?
20:41:16 <heatherwest> heatherwest has joined #egov
21:56:25 <Zakim> -??P3
22:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, OAmbur?, in T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM
22:05:03 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM has ended
22:05:05 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.202.236.aaaa, rachel, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, OAmbur?, Brand?, +1.202.236.aacc
23:14:12 <heatherwest> heatherwest has joined #egov
23:20:49 <heatherwest> heatherwest has left #egov