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<trackbot> Date: 12 March 2009
<scribe> meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon - 12 Mar 2009
<KFord> zakim who's here
<scribe> ACTION: items to http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
JS: Draft has been published, and cam out at 14:17 EST yesterday.
JA: Comments by April 22nd - post CSUN
RESOLUTION: No meeting on the 17th March as it's CSUN
JR: People still want to talk about it.
... trying to build consensus - so when we go to HTML5 it will be a united front - otherwise there may be problems.
JR: we need to avoid disputs
KF: JR and you summarise, then we can talk
JR: General Resolutions giving
background (Reads Text)
... photo site as an example can use alt to put label 5 of 200 - but not good for accessible usage and authors should look at WCAG 2 for accessibility.
... The draft then defines 'Image validity' - all the points that must be met to mean the image is valid (in the context of accessibility).
JA: long text alternatives - no longdef - can be depricated as describedby will cover this.
MH: describedby will be pointed to a link.
JA: role = presentation is equivalent to alt=""
MH: did anyone suggest role be required
JR: was some discussion but as there are only 2 options no thought necessary
MH: does the term 'presentation' jar with anyone as it is so open to interpretation and misuse.
KF: JR what's your view
... what if things are marked as they should not be - should user agents be able to see this
JR: UA supposed to support ARIA role = presentation (don't add to dom).
KF: some assistive technology
corrects incorrect things, is this possible with this
... alt="" gives access but makes a statement - role = presentation cuts access as it is not in the dom - therefore no shot at this.
JR: I agree - comes down to the trust issue
JA: if author gets it wrong - no access to src?
JR: this can be placed anywhere and there dom is not modified.
<AllanJ> SH: worrying that things fall out of the DOM
KF: Internal mail to pf working group - can we get greater detail
<AllanJ> ...conflicts with accessibility and UA to repair
MH: worrying how things could
drop out of the accessibility feature.
... seems to be a backward step
<JR> Here's a link http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
JA: should always be in the dom - but can be ignored
<AllanJ> 1. role=presentation - misuse or abuse of that role
<AllanJ> want role=image to convey this is content, but no alt yet and UA should look for fall back content
<AllanJ> JR: alt is required in HTML4, one purpose is for author education
<AllanJ> ...forces author to use alt (properly or not)...trust
<AllanJ> MH: will have validation error if alt="" with no role=presentation
<AllanJ> KF: what is UA fall back for role=presentation
KF: this makes accessibility harder
JR: respect the opinion, may need
to take it back
... How will people behave - we just don't no too many factors...
<AllanJ> SH: ok with @alt, issue with role=presentation
<AllanJ> ...does UA need to make a requirement to cover "The user agent MAY choose not to present all structural aspects of the element being repurposed. " from http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
<AllanJ> JR: +1
<AllanJ> ...should appear in the dom
<AllanJ> JA: should be in DOM by default, user has option to opt-out
<AllanJ> JR: UA needs a setting
KFord: css concept of generated content - not supposed to be in the dom either.
<AllanJ> JA: is it covered by 2.1.2 2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including the user interface and rendered content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture. (Level A)
<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-159 - Ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-19].
RESOLUTION: await KFords comments back from his PF contact - we have time before their 'call', and contact Gregory and David also on PF. THIS NEEDS REVISITING - KEEP ON AGENDA.
<JR> JR could join by phone - chance I could attend in person but not sure how good
JA: when do we need to commit?
JS: Not sure, maybe restructuring - better to say no and then go for it at a later date
KFord: thinks we say no
JA: do this as a No, initially.
RESOLUTION: No to meeting at TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009.
JA: JS and I are still thrashing this. Currently looking at presenting it as: things we do, issues with browsers, things we're trying to fix, illustrated with demos, examples etc. Then ask people to comment on the draft.
JS: Know of people attending - can you brief them that the presentation will occur on Saturday.
Glossary Proposal - alert
JA: 3 accept, 2 changes, 1 neutral
Proposed delete 'alert' use "Notify": User Agents may notify users of events or status changes through the use of a message displayed within content, within the framework of the User Agent user interface (e.g., status bar), or through a pop-up window generated from the content or from the User Agent user interface. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g.,
<AllanJ> proposed rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
RESOLUTION: New rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
<AllanJ> ACTION: JS to delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-160 - Delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
Glossary Proposal - audio
Proposed audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
<KFord> +1 to what mH said.
accept 4 / discuss 1 / neutral 1
RESOLUTION: audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
<AllanJ> ACTION: JS apply new definition of Audio to glossary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-161 - Apply new definition of Audio to glossary [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
Proposed element, element type: A pair of tags and their content, or an "empty" tag - one that requires no closing tag or content (used in the same sense as in HTML and XML) [adapted from ATAG 2.0]
accept 4 / change 1 / discuss 2 / neutral 1
JR: should we break apart into 2 types?
JA: need to break up element and element type:
<JR> ACTION: JR to Look at breaking up "element", "element type" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Look at breaking up \"element\", \"element type\" [on Jan Richards - due 2009-03-19].
RESOLUTION: Further analysis required.
rsagent, draft minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: sharper Inferring Scribes: sharper Default Present: [Microsoft], +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, allanj, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen Present: Allan_James Harper_Simon Spellman_Jeanne Ford_Kelly Richards_Jan Hakkinen_Mark Regrets: Swan_Henny Alan_Cantor Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0076.html Found Date: 12 Mar 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: items to http://www.w3.org/wai/ua/tracker/actions/open [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html#action01] People with action items: ja jr js WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]