15:54:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:54:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-irc
15:54:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:54:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
15:54:34 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:54:34 <trackbot> Date: 12 March 2009
15:54:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:55:09 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:55:09 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:55:10 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
15:55:11 <Zakim> +Mike
15:55:42 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
15:55:42 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
15:55:43 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
15:55:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike
15:55:46 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike-Mobile
15:55:48 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
15:55:55 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:55:55 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:55:56 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
15:55:57 <Zakim> +Mike
15:56:15 <smedero> smedero has joined #html-wg
15:56:22 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:56:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:57:17 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
15:57:23 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-wg
15:57:56 <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
15:58:06 <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
15:58:06 <Zakim> +Julian; got it
15:58:06 <masinter> masinter has joined #html-wg
15:58:11 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
15:58:34 <Zakim> + +1.425.467.aabb
15:58:36 <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html
15:58:37 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 from Sam Ruby on 2009-03-11 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
15:58:42 <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.467.aabb is me
15:58:42 <Zakim> +smedero; got it
15:59:04 <Zakim> +Sam
15:59:34 <Zakim> +DanC
15:59:50 <rubys> anybody want to scribe?
15:59:50 <Zakim> +Masinter
16:00:11 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, Julian, smedero, Sam, DanC, Masinter
16:00:15 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
16:00:22 <Zakim> +Shepazu
16:00:43 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 12 Mar http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
16:00:49 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc
16:00:56 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:00:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
16:01:02 <gsnedders> gsnedders has joined #html-wg
16:01:09 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:01:09 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Julian
16:01:11 <dsinger> zakim, 408.996.aacc is [Apple]
16:01:11 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '408.996.aacc'
16:01:22 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
16:01:27 <dsinger> Zakim, +1.408.996.aacc is [Apple]
16:01:27 <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
16:01:31 <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
16:01:34 <dsinger> zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
16:01:34 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:01:37 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:01:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:01:39 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:01:43 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #html-wg
16:01:50 <MikeSmith> issue-59?
16:01:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
16:01:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
16:01:51 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-59 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:02:01 <DanC> topic: ISSUE-59 (normative-language-reference)
16:03:15 <DanC> action-94: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0216.html
16:03:15 <trackbot> ACTION-94 Report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 notes added
16:03:17 <pimpbot> Title: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal from Doug Schepers on 2009-03-10 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:03:30 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
16:03:36 <Zakim> +??P29
16:03:53 <Lachy> I'm here, IRC only for now. Unless I'm needed, I won't call in
16:04:00 <masinter> I'm willing to help but would appreciate some guidance about what things Mike wants reviewed or needs help with
16:04:34 <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 50 (normative language reference)
16:04:47 <MikeSmith> s/Issue 50/Issue 59/
16:05:04 <dsinger> we did have a conversation about the normative status; could that be a sub-question, like the requirements are?
16:05:12 <DanC> q+ to note a little progress and to invite smedero 
16:05:22 <dsinger> i.e. Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a language reference and if so, should it be normative, and what are the requirements?
16:05:25 <smedero> I'm also intending to help. I sent Mike some rough review notes last week.
16:05:35 <dsinger> q+
16:05:38 <DanC> yes, we did, dsinger; I think the document now says "dunno what status this will eventually have"
16:05:39 <rubys> ack danc
16:05:39 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note a little progress and to invite smedero
16:05:49 <smedero> and Mike just answered my question about needing help w/ examples.
16:05:57 <dsinger> q-
16:06:42 <MikeSmith> DanC: smedero, maybe you could send a version of your message that you mailed directly to Mike & me?
16:06:47 <MikeSmith> smedero: yeah, can do that
16:07:08 <dsinger> I also note that Hixie is 'about 40% done' on producing some of the supporting technical details automatically from the spec.
16:07:16 <DanC> ACTION-109?
16:07:16 <trackbot> ACTION-109 -- Sam Ruby to pursue publication of HTML 5: The Markup Language... poll or whatever -- due 2009-03-26 -- OPEN
16:07:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/109
16:07:17 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-109 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:08:50 <MikeSmith> masinter: before doing a poll, would like to have a version that I can pass around internally
16:09:19 <MikeSmith> Action: Michael(tm) to coordinate review of current H:TML draft
16:09:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-116 - Coordinate review of current H:TML draft [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-03-19].
16:09:31 <masinter> s/review/editing work/
16:09:41 <DanC> action-109?
16:09:41 <trackbot> ACTION-109 -- Michael(tm) Smith to hand out work to reviewers of HTML 5: The Markup Language... -- due 2009-03-26 -- OPEN
16:09:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/109
16:09:43 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-109 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:09:47 <DanC> action-109 due next week
16:09:47 <trackbot> ACTION-109 hand out work to reviewers of HTML 5: The Markup Language... due date now next week
16:09:50 <MikeSmith> issue-37?
16:09:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html -- OPEN
16:09:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37
16:09:53 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-37 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:10:06 <DanC> topic:  ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html
16:10:12 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0216.html
16:10:13 <pimpbot> Title: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal from Doug Schepers on 2009-03-10 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:10:17 <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 37 ( Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html)
16:10:32 <DanC> (ACTION-94 is done to my satisfaction)
16:10:34 <MikeSmith> [shepazu does recap]
16:11:28 <masinter> (wasn't clear on what it is authors want or don't want)
16:11:47 <DanC> (non-XML syntax for SVG, I think, masinter )
16:11:49 <MikeSmith> shepazu: SVG WG have come from a position that favored XML-only syntax to recognizing that browser vendors favor something with features of text/html
16:12:05 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I'm not convinced that authors want that kind of syntax
16:12:45 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we are against HTML5 "whitelisting" particular elements ... 
16:13:10 <MikeSmith> ... would prefer that the HTML5 reference the SVG spec instead of whitelisting
16:13:37 <MikeSmith> shepazu: anyway, I think the issues are being hashed out on the mailing list
16:13:44 <Lachy> from a web developer's perspective, I want syntactic consistency between HTML and SVG when they are mixed in text/html, rather than XML strictness for SVG
16:14:14 <dckc> dckc has joined #html-wg
16:15:12 <MikeSmith> [masinter discusses deployed tools that consume or produce SVG]
16:15:37 <Zakim> -DanC
16:15:54 <MikeSmith> shepazu: my concern is that we end up getting some hybrid syntax that Illustrator can't consume any more
16:16:22 <anne> Illustrator can be updated just like browsers, no?
16:16:41 <anne> easy to use HTML5 parsers are readily available
16:17:13 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we are concerned about loss of all the network effects that SVG enjoys [if browers end up only supporting some subset of SVG]
16:17:24 <anne> (it would also be interesting to know whether Illustrator can consume XHTML+SVG at present)
16:17:36 <MikeSmith> masinter: that should not be called SVG [if that ends up happening]
16:18:14 <MikeSmith> shepazu: 2 steps: 1, error reporting; and 2, we like the export-SVG-by-right-clicking idea
16:19:21 <MikeSmith> q?
16:19:52 <DanC> DanC has joined #html-wg
16:20:12 <Julian> q+
16:20:17 <Zakim> +DanC
16:21:48 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I agree with hsivonen, who said the issue is that changing parsers consumes significant resources ... 
16:22:50 <MikeSmith> ... [not changing parsers] results in faster performance [which is preferable] 
16:24:30 <MikeSmith> shepazu: point is not to punish the end user for mistakes in source
16:24:59 <MikeSmith> shepazu: but I don't think there are hordes of authors our there producing SVG by hand from text editors
16:25:07 <rubys> I do :-)
16:25:28 <gsnedders> You're weird!     
16:25:38 <DanC> q+ to noodle on the pattern of XML languages getting fuzzy, not just HTML but also RSS, and to note risks of "I don't care how they implement it"
16:25:45 <anne> I do too, usually
16:25:45 <MikeSmith> ... they are instead producing SVG using programming languages, and tools like Inkscape
16:26:24 <rubys> can we start to wrap up the error recover aspects of this discussion?
16:26:46 <Julian> q-
16:26:49 <MikeSmith> shepazu: SVG does not define its own processing and parsing model
16:28:01 <Zakim> +??P16
16:28:03 <MikeSmith> shepazu: but for example, there are special considerations, like the fact that svg elements must be closed
16:28:28 <Julian> q+
16:29:17 <MikeSmith> DanC: there's a pattern where structured-markup languages, when they hit the prime time, turn fuzzy
16:30:22 <rubys> ack dan
16:30:22 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to noodle on the pattern of XML languages getting fuzzy, not just HTML but also RSS, and to note risks of "I don't care how they implement it"
16:30:25 <rubys> ack danc
16:30:45 <masinter> was just trying to understand the position
16:30:48 <MikeSmith> shepazu: in the beginning, SVG tools did not require a namespace declaration, and still some tools in current use don't require it
16:31:25 <masinter> to clarify my comments here: I understand the different possible positions, was trying to understand which one the SVG group was taking
16:31:35 <MikeSmith> Julian: seems to be some agreement here, should take it back to mailing list
16:32:01 <masinter> sorry for not noticing q :(
16:32:04 <DanC> ("our wiki page" = http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html_2009 ? )
16:32:06 <pimpbot> Title: SVG in text-html 2009 - SVG (at www.w3.org)
16:32:12 <MikeSmith> shepazu: there are issues about this that the implementors in teh SVG WG don't yet agree on themselves
16:32:17 <MikeSmith> (oink oink)
16:33:45 <DanC> close ACTION-94
16:33:45 <trackbot> ACTION-94 Report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 closed
16:34:15 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I would like to ask that teh SVG WG's comments be reified in the spec 
16:37:50 <Zakim> -DanC
16:38:15 <Julian> q+
16:38:23 <MikeSmith> shepazu: Hixie expressed a bit of sense of urgency on this, because implementors are implementing already the commented-out SVG part of the HTML5 draft 
16:38:54 <rubys> action doug to get svg working group to propose specific text
16:38:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Get svg working group to propose specific text [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-19].
16:39:12 <shepazu> ACTION-117
16:39:13 <connolly_> connolly_ has joined #html-wg
16:39:19 <shepazu> ACTION-117?
16:39:19 <trackbot> ACTION-117 -- Doug Schepers to get svg working group to propose specific text -- due 2009-03-19 -- OPEN
16:39:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/117
16:39:23 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-117 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:39:33 <rubys> ack julian
16:39:51 <Zakim> +DanC
16:43:35 <DanC> (I'd like to see a test case for the whitelisting issue.)
16:43:42 <shepazu> DanC: yes, that' s the correct link
16:43:48 <masinter> ask that a new editor's draft be generated which has 'commented out' sections noted rather than redacted, so that "Editors Draft" in W3C matches what implementors are looking at
16:44:00 <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat)
16:44:00 <MikeSmith> Lachy: we looking at your action now
16:44:05 <DanC> action-103?
16:44:05 <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-03-17 -- OPEN
16:44:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
16:44:06 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:44:11 <MikeSmith> action-34?
16:44:11 <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2009-02-27 -- OPEN
16:44:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
16:44:12 <Lachy> ok
16:44:12 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-34 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:44:20 <Lachy> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0265.html
16:44:21 <pimpbot> Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 from Lachlan Hunt on 2009-03-11 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:44:34 <DanC> oops. sorry. I was in the wrong place
16:44:43 <MikeSmith> action-78?
16:44:43 <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Lachlan Hunt to work on text and heading for 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages -- due 2009-03-01 -- OPEN
16:44:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
16:44:44 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:45:22 <MikeSmith> [rubys notes that Lachy has provided status updates on the list]
16:45:36 <MikeSmith> action-54?
16:45:36 <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-09-26 -- CLOSED
16:45:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
16:45:42 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:45:53 <Lachy> ok, if you're done with my issues now, I'm leaving. Bye.
16:46:20 <DanC> ACTION-110?
16:46:20 <trackbot> ACTION-110 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add note to H:TML draft about what's currently missing and planned to be added -- due 2009-03-05 -- OPEN
16:46:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/110
16:46:22 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-110 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:46:46 <DanC> action-110 due next week
16:46:46 <trackbot> ACTION-110 Add note to H:TML draft about what's currently missing and planned to be added due date now next week
16:48:30 <dsinger> URI for the wiki page?
16:48:43 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009
16:48:45 <MikeSmith> rubys: I intend to be at the informal HTML meeting at IETF
16:48:50 <pimpbot> Title: IETF HTML5 Meeting March 2009 - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
16:49:23 <DanC> (I just added "HTML 5 and scripting media types" to the agenda)
16:49:27 <masinter> no registration required
16:50:22 <DanC> wiki registration appreciated
16:50:27 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:50:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:50:32 <masinter> no IETF registration required
16:50:33 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:51:13 <masinter> s/no registration/no IETF registration (please wiki register)/
16:51:15 <Zakim> -smedero
16:51:16 <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
16:51:17 <Zakim> -Julian
16:51:19 <Zakim> -Sam
16:51:21 <Zakim> -Masinter
16:51:22 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:51:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:51:23 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:51:23 <Zakim> -DanC
16:51:23 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:51:34 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:51:45 <Zakim> -??P16
16:52:19 <DanC> smedero, doug, let's make a test case for SVG whitelisting
16:52:34 <shepazu> DanC: I'm not sure what that means
16:52:39 <DanC> what's a document that (a) isn't allowed by the whitelist design, but (b) would be allowed by the SVG WG's design?
16:52:51 <Zakim> -??P29
16:52:52 <shepazu> ah, ok
16:53:02 <DanC> I imagine something wtih a <svg:3dmagic> element or some such
16:53:36 <shepazu> sure, we could do that
16:53:37 <shepazu> right
16:53:52 <DanC> would you, please? mail it to at least me, smedero, and www-archive, if not public-html?
16:54:06 <DanC> as an attachment, so we can point validators at it
16:54:07 <anne> e.g. <!doctype html><svg><b></b></svg> would not work iirc
16:54:13 <anne> as <b> is in the whitelist
16:54:24 <DanC> hmm... I thought the whitelist was a list of SVG elements.
16:54:33 <jgraham> anne: <b> is in the blacklist
16:54:42 <shepazu> correct
16:54:48 <DanC> I'd be surprised if the SVG WG was arguing for <svg><b></b></svg> 
16:54:48 <jgraham> of things that break out of foreign content
16:54:56 <hsivonen> is the point of 3dmagic to highlight a local name starting with a digit?
16:55:05 <DanC> no.. sorry for the red herring
16:55:11 <jgraham> the whilelsit is things like feFooBar only working for known FooBar
16:55:12 <DanC> I didn't mean to cross an XML boundary
16:55:20 <shepazu> whitelist == "list of sanctioned SVG elements per the HTML5 spec"
16:55:47 <DanC> <svg3d:sphere> perhaps
16:55:52 <jgraham> shepazu: I don't remember any such list
16:56:20 <DanC> oops; maybe I'm remembering something that wasn't there.
16:56:21 <jgraham> shepazu: There is a list of multi-case elements but you can pick any lowercase elements you l ike
16:56:33 <jgraham> s/pick/use/
16:56:58 <hsivonen> shepazu: would it work for you if HTML5 said that the parser must camelCase all SVG camelCase names the SVG processing layer of the application recognizes?
16:57:01 <anne> jgraham, oh, nm then
16:57:45 <DanC> hmm... I only read the subject lines of the svg whitelisting email exchange; I presumed I knew the content, but maybe not
16:57:47 <shepazu> hsivonen: yes, I think that would be just fine, if there's a way to do that in spec text
16:58:13 <shepazu> that's a more robust model
16:58:22 <shepazu> it's not perfect, but it's much better
16:58:28 <Philip> hsivonen: What would html5lib do, since it doesn't have an SVG processing layer?
16:58:45 <jgraham> I guess it is possible to make the SVG element list accessible to other layers
16:58:50 <DanC> { whitelist == "list of sanctioned SVG elements per the HTML5 spec" } was the design I thought hixie commented out; shepazu, can you help me find it? or is jgraham right that it's not there?
16:59:02 <jgraham> (or rather it's python so it's pretty hard not to ;) )
16:59:27 <anne> DanC, I think this is about a list of SVG elements that have a different case from all lowercase
16:59:47 <DanC> hmm... ok... still seems testable
16:59:49 <anne> DanC, HTML5 currently maintains such a "whitelist" and the SVG WG feels it should not be there
16:59:50 <shepazu> a fail case would be <svg><fePony/></svg>, where say, FF doesn't understand it, but Inkscape does, and so the exported SG still wouldn't work in Inkscape... 
16:59:55 <hsivonen> Philip: take all camelCase names from SVG 1.1
17:00:21 <DanC> right, shepazu , that's the sort of case I'd like to explore in detail
17:00:52 <shepazu> but hopefully we will be moving to an optionally-case-insensitive XML.next anyway
17:01:40 <hsivonen> Philip: or s/1.1/the version of SVG tracked by browsers/
17:03:09 <hsivonen> shepazu: optionally case-insensitive seems like a very bad idea on its face
17:03:35 <shepazu> hsivonen: oh?
17:03:52 <shepazu> how is that different than what the HTML5 parser does?
17:04:22 <hsivonen> shepazu: case-insensitivity in text/html is not optional
17:04:33 <hsivonen> optional features: bad
17:05:29 <Zakim> -Mike
17:05:30 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:05:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike, Julian, smedero, Sam, DanC, Masinter, Shepazu, dsinger
17:05:45 <LHSilli> LHSilli has joined #html-wg
17:06:48 <jgraham> Wow, optional-caseinsentitiveness sounds like a disaster waiting to happen
17:06:59 <Philip> shepazu: It's not religion, it's the Truth!
17:08:16 <dsinger> case-sensitivity is a nightmare for those of us who have auditory memories of words
17:10:20 <shepazu> I meant optional in the postel's law sense
17:10:31 <hsivonen> I'd be OK with the SVG WG being able to amend the camelCase list early and often for names that aren't already taken by HTML. adding more stuff like textArea seems bad.
17:11:10 <shepazu> hsivonen: total agreement. bonehead decision, I wish I'd insisted more that we change it
17:11:29 <hsivonen> It seems there wouldn't be much harm in shipping a parser with fePony support before shipping SVG filters with fePony support
17:14:23 <Philip> What about a parser that supports any element starting with "fe" and followed by a title-cased string?
17:15:01 <hsivonen> anyway, I think the camelCase list will be a non-issue for browsers in practice. for standalone parsing libs, it's not going to be a notable issue, since they can err on the side of taking the latest names drafted by the SVG WG early
17:15:22 <hsivonen> this is more a spec mechanics issue than a practical software issue
17:15:39 <hsivonen> Philip: that would add to complexity
17:16:15 <hsivonen> Philip: assuming you mean uppercasing the third character if it is a-z and the first two characters are "fe"
17:17:22 <hsivonen> it would be doable, I suppose, if filter effects are the only issue here and the SVG WG wants to commit itself to single-word filter names from now on
17:18:06 <hsivonen> and to not minting any other element names starting with "fe"
17:21:32 <shepazu> sorry hsivonen, we've already decided to add fePrettyPony, fePapaSmurf, feMonChiChi, feRainbowLuv and several others... we have to keep up with http://www.cornify.com/
17:21:43 <pimpbot> Title: Cornify - Unicorns & Rainbows On-Demand (at www.cornify.com)
17:21:53 <shepazu> thanks, pimpbot 
17:24:04 <dsinger> I think we need feFiFoFum
17:24:22 <shepazu> nice, dsinger 
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