IRC log of egov on 2009-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #egov
12:58:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:08:16 [Owen]
Owen has joined #egov
13:10:58 [josema]
zakim, code?
13:10:58 [Zakim]
sorry, josema, I don't know what conference this is
13:11:04 [josema]
zakim, this will be egov
13:11:04 [Zakim]
ok, josema, I see T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM already started
13:11:19 [josema]
trackbot, start telcon
13:11:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:11:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be EGOV
13:11:23 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM already started
13:11:23 [josema]
zakim, code?
13:11:24 [trackbot]
Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
13:11:24 [trackbot]
Date: 12 March 2009
13:11:24 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), josema
13:11:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.626.aabb
13:12:06 [josema]
zakim, aabb is AIA Board Room
13:12:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aabb is AIA Board Room', josema
13:12:13 [josema]
zakim, aabb is AIA
13:12:13 [Zakim]
+AIA; got it
13:12:18 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:12:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.509.464.aaaa, AIA
13:12:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Owen, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:12:27 [josema]
zakim, aaaa is rachel
13:12:27 [Zakim]
+rachel; got it
13:13:01 [kjetil]
oh well
13:18:40 [Owen]
I was planning to Skype into the telecon but don't see how to enter the conference code in Skype. If I can't figure out how to do it, I will only be dialing in for limited parts of the meeting on my cell phone.
13:21:13 [josema]
ok, owen
13:21:25 [josema]
we'll start shortly
13:21:32 [josema]
people still coming in
13:23:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.455.aacc
13:25:30 [ari]
ari has joined #egov
13:26:53 [Zakim]
- +1.301.455.aacc
13:29:04 [Owen]
I don't understand what "aacc" means in the phone number. I thought it might mean the access code but I tried it and got the wrong number.
13:33:05 [josema]
scribe: josema
13:33:29 [josema]
[jose goes through slides, will be posted online and linked from agenda]
13:33:46 [kjetil]
kjetil has left #egov
13:34:22 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:34:38 [josema]
[kevin goes through slides, will be posted, too]
13:34:48 [Karen]
Karen has joined #egov
13:35:13 [Karen]
eGov F2F meeting at AIA, Washington, DC
13:35:42 [Karen]
Jose Alonso welcomes everyone and provides brief overview of W3C
13:36:01 [josema]
13:36:10 [Karen]
Kevin Novak reviews agenda for the next two days
13:36:56 [Karen]
slide: Why are we here?
13:37:10 [Karen]
Topics include: participation and citizen engagement
13:37:20 [Karen]
data integration
13:37:31 [Karen]
Approach: day one is "provocation"; discussion
13:37:48 [Karen]
...speaker panel to get discussion started
13:38:00 [Karen]
...use of social media
13:38:13 [Karen]
...John Sheridan, UK and eGov co-chair
13:38:18 [Karen] lead that session
13:38:29 [Karen] integration in afternoon
13:38:47 [Karen] two to begin to address solutions, approaches, and next steps
13:38:52 [Karen]
...other topics tomorrow
13:38:57 [Karen] management
13:40:11 [Karen]
...Today's speakers: Beth Novek, The White House
13:40:22 [Karen]
Ellen Miller, Sunlight Foundation
13:40:32 [Karen]
and Steve Ressler, Govloop
13:40:58 [Karen]
Beth begins by thanking everyone's participation
13:41:13 [Karen]
and acknowledges the W3C eGov published document
13:41:45 [Karen]
excited that this work is starting because of Obama Administration's commitment to create open and transparent government
13:41:51 [Karen] create a "connected democracy"
13:41:52 [Rachel]
Rachel has joined #egov
13:41:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.455.aadd
13:41:59 [Karen] I do and work I focus on
13:42:10 [Karen]
...with others throughout government
13:42:20 [Karen] to develop policy innovations
13:42:28 [Karen]
...end goal to create effective and accountable government
13:42:37 [Karen] some of our initiatives
13:42:44 [Karen]
...First, Transparency
13:42:52 [Karen]
...creating open gov't in terms of operations and data
13:43:04 [Karen] the "putting Chris Dorobek out of business" agenda
13:43:16 [Karen] there will be no more leeks, everything will be published online
13:43:20 [Karen]
13:43:42 [Karen]
...enable performance effectivenesss, greater accountability, engagement
13:43:53 [Karen]
...we are committed to publish information online
13:44:00 [Karen]
...working with CIO's office and CIO counsel
13:44:05 [Karen] set up policies
13:44:09 [Karen] project
13:44:19 [Karen]
...Vivek is probably speaking about that at FOSE right now
13:44:24 [Karen]
...make that raw data available
13:44:28 [Karen]
...get it online
13:44:33 [Karen]
...we need you to do that work
13:44:40 [Karen] get that information out there
13:45:00 [Karen]
...about tracking accountability, and also economic development in terms of creating new jobs
13:45:10 [Karen] is another flagship project
13:45:20 [Karen]
...I hope George Thomas will speak about this; he is here
13:45:28 [Karen]
...look at how we move the institution of government
13:45:35 [Karen]
...toward publishing information
13:45:39 [Karen]
...Second, Participation
13:45:45 [Karen]
...not just lip service and hand waving
13:45:51 [Karen]
...not weight in after the fact
13:45:59 [Karen]
...but to bring expertise into the decision-making process
13:46:04 [Karen]
...we have to drive toward this goal
13:46:12 [Karen]
...meaninful forms to drive contributions into policy making
13:46:18 [Karen]
...notice and common rule making
13:46:22 [Karen]
...some of traditional structure
13:46:32 [Karen]
...and look at new models that technology enables
13:46:40 [Karen]
...but also not to exclusion of other models
13:46:48 [Karen]
...we are experimenting with ways to create those opportunities
13:46:57 [Karen] will take experimentation and innovation
13:47:04 [Karen]
....parallel work with CIO council
13:47:12 [Karen]
...GSA and its citizenwide services office
13:47:21 [Karen]
...that kind of reinvention and better delivery of services
13:47:23 [Karen]
13:47:29 [Karen]
...fundamental democratic right
13:47:33 [Karen] decision-making
13:47:43 [Karen]
...strongly committed to an effective rul-making strategy
13:47:46 [Daniel_Bennett]
Daniel_Bennett has joined #egov
13:47:49 [Karen]
...I commend you to invest expertise here
13:48:01 [Karen]
...create attention; look at new structures
13:48:10 [Karen]
...deliberate intention for collaboration
13:48:19 [Karen]
...idea to engender better cooperation
13:48:24 [Karen]
...across all levels
13:48:32 [Karen]
...and across public and private sector
13:48:41 [Karen]
...innovative path to have more collaboration
13:48:45 [Karen]
...develop solutions to work together
13:48:55 [Karen]
...why we are bringing groups into The White House
13:49:01 [Karen] we do the work across the gov't
13:49:07 [Karen] far more collaborative to bring people together
13:49:14 [Karen] needs to work with W3C
13:49:21 [Karen] with datasets, help develop standards
13:49:25 [Karen]
...take that data and mash it up
13:49:31 [Karen]
...make it useful once it's posted
13:49:39 [Karen]
...and need a feedback loop once data is posted
13:49:49 [Karen] we use the data to make better decision
13:49:53 [Karen]
13:50:01 [Karen]
...on participation side, not just about better APIs
13:50:11 [Karen]
...need your input, craft usecases
13:50:19 [Karen]
...another feedback loop to implement changes
13:50:25 [Karen]
...again to drive to better decision making
13:50:33 [Karen]
...Focus is not only citizen to gov't approach
13:50:39 [Karen] put data out there and do stuff with it
13:50:49 [Karen]
...but also citizen to citizen mechanism to solve problems
13:50:57 [Karen]
...invite public to develop solutions
13:51:03 [heatherwest]
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13:51:06 [Karen]
...use technology to solve collective problems
13:51:14 [josema]
13:51:16 [Karen]
...Coming here at a preliminary point in this process
13:51:35 [Karen]
...we will be anxious to hear more; watch the wiki
13:51:50 [Karen]
Kevin: questions?
13:51:55 [Karen]
Rick Murphy, GSA
13:52:05 [Karen]
RM: I wonder what Office of Science Technology's view is
13:52:12 [Karen]
...of the emergence of a market around gov't data
13:52:33 [Karen]
...and what percent for supporting small and medium businesses
13:52:37 [Karen]
[missed first two]
13:52:42 [Karen]
Beth: I don't have answers yet
13:52:47 [Karen]
...if you do, please share
13:53:00 [Karen]
...putting gov't data online does help to create businesses
13:53:07 [Karen] it's not only a notion of transparency
13:53:11 [Karen]
...the goal is to have people use it
13:53:19 [Karen] have people who want to create businesses do so
13:53:25 [Karen]
...and create social, market opps
13:53:30 [Karen]
...wonderful provocation
13:53:39 [Karen]
...GSA partnered in this effort, invite you to take it on
13:53:50 [Karen]
Rick: I certainly have some thoughts, although not well considered
13:53:57 [Karen]
...I think social production would take up large percentage
13:54:00 [Karen]
...of emerging marketin
13:54:06 [Karen]
...small businesses would be impacted
13:54:18 [Karen] concern is that it's great to have a contest to provide $20K
13:54:24 [Karen]
...and you get a lot of small applications
13:54:33 [Karen]
...but that is a narrowly defined response to a large supply of data
13:54:42 [Karen]
Beth: Are we goint to hear about Ask for America?
13:54:53 [Karen]
Rick: I think there is a demographic to that, which needs to be well understood
13:54:56 [josema]
13:54:59 [Karen] the market for gov't data emerges
13:55:02 [Karen]
Brand Niemann, EPA
13:55:18 [Karen]
...yesterday Chris Rassmussen issued an interesting challenge
13:55:28 [Karen]
...he challenged the new federal CIO to do this
13:55:35 [Karen] challenge how the big IT dollars are spent
13:55:38 [Karen]
...for three reasons
13:55:42 [Karen] show authority
13:55:46 [Karen] show we are changing course
13:55:53 [Karen]
...and to pre-empt some money
13:56:15 [Karen]
Beth: I'm laughing because that's a true throw-down to the challenge of large IT systems
13:56:24 [Karen] we work on policy in tandem with CIO Office
13:56:30 [Karen]
...we have been doing this for one month
13:56:43 [Karen]
...we don't get to the transparent, participatory and collaborative gov't
13:56:49 [Karen]
...without attacking from several angles
13:56:59 [Karen]
...Vivek is talking about Cloud Computing at FOSE I'm sure
13:57:07 [Karen]
...attack from technical, cultural perspectives
13:57:19 [Karen]
...willingness to share data, to take critique
13:57:26 [Karen]
...attack from procedural and process angl
13:57:29 [Karen]
13:57:37 [Karen]
...great tech systems are nice, but need processes
13:57:40 [Karen]
...what goes first, second
13:57:44 [Karen]
...and also from a policy angle
13:57:57 [Karen]
...remove policy and regulatory impediments and barriers
13:58:05 [Karen]
...So yes, we need these things to work in tandem
13:58:10 [Karen]
...and bridge across the institutions
13:58:16 [Karen]
...and bridge across large IT systems
13:58:21 [Karen]
...and the cultural issues, too
13:58:42 [Karen]
Suzanne Acar, Federal Data Architecture Subcommittee
13:58:57 [Karen]
Suzanne: thank you for sharing and reviewing The President's memo
13:59:09 [Karen]
...any insights from what other countries have done?
13:59:20 [Karen]
...I just met with a number of countries yesterday
13:59:32 [Karen]
Beth: There is an active CIO group that meets
13:59:42 [Karen]
...conference call yesterday to talk about what the transformational efforts are
13:59:51 [Karen]
...we are learning and informed by efforts around the work
13:59:55 [Karen]
...UK Information Task Force
14:00:02 [Karen]
...and Ministry of Transformational Gov't
14:00:08 [Karen]
...Canada has interesting efforts
14:00:17 [Karen]
...Australia has citizen participation initiatives
14:00:25 [Karen]
...the echo was that we are furthest along
14:00:32 [Karen] terms of statements of data transparency
14:00:36 [Karen]
...has to do with copyright concept
14:00:45 [Karen]
...for variety of cultural reasons, we are different places
14:00:52 [Karen] there are things we can all learn
14:01:00 [Karen]
...we committed to continue these conversatoin
14:01:11 [Karen]
...efforts of W3C can be very helpful to keep this going
14:01:14 [Zakim]
14:01:19 [Zakim]
- +1.301.455.aadd
14:01:30 [Karen]
Daniel Bennett,
14:01:43 [Karen]
Daniel: I believe Italy has a mandate to publish valid HTML
14:01:51 [Karen]
...W3C has a validator tool to do this
14:01:58 [Karen]
...government publishes vast amounts of data
14:02:11 [Karen]
...but seems to be challenged to publish valid HTML
14:02:23 [Karen] would be a great help to have both human readable
14:02:27 [Karen]
...and machine processable data
14:02:34 [Karen] that would be a good gov't rule
14:02:50 [Karen]
Kevin Novak: so to give a plug to former life at Library of Congress
14:02:56 [Karen] is well integrated
14:02:58 [Owen]
I contacted Skype and got instructions on how to enter the conference ID and am now listening via Skype.
14:03:02 [Karen]
...challenging to see what are right positions
14:03:14 [Karen]
...not everyone understands what to do technically
14:03:30 [Karen] educate technical resources about quality standards for the Web
14:03:36 [Karen]
Diane Mueller, XBRL International
14:03:46 [Karen]
Diane: we have worked across gov't agencies and jurisdictions
14:03:56 [Karen]
...Canada, Spain, Netherlands, Australia
14:04:03 [Karen]
...we have worked on developing common data sets
14:04:15 [Karen]
...XBRL to describe financial data
14:04:25 [Karen]
...needs to have common set of valid tags so that we can consume it
14:04:39 [Karen]
...the mapping of the disparate federal data makes it difficult
14:04:54 [Karen]
...some countries have a standard language to map against
14:05:02 [Karen] avoid mapping against disparate data sources
14:05:13 [Karen]
Speaker: Crown Copyright issue
14:05:20 [Owen]
NIST has an XML schema and content validation service:
14:05:22 [Karen]
...information being quoted in articles
14:05:30 [Karen]
...will anyone be doing an informational campaign
14:05:35 [Karen] get these messages out?
14:05:42 [Karen]
Beth: I am writing down every and all suggestions
14:05:49 [Karen] has posted a policy
14:05:55 [Karen] a copyright information policy
14:06:09 [Karen]
...clearly states that the govt does not hold the copyright
14:06:13 [Karen]
...and allow work to be reused
14:06:23 [Karen] would be good to have a campaign to educated
14:06:31 [Karen]
...and I was an IP professor until recently
14:06:44 [Karen] a good suggestion; I can give good lectures about copyright law
14:06:46 [Karen]
14:06:54 [Karen]
...yes, we should make these messages clear
14:07:12 [Karen]
John Sheridan, W3C eGov Co-Chair, Sytems Strategy for UK Public Sector Information
14:07:22 [Karen]
...I have been involved with one third of the task force
14:07:30 [Karen]
...that produced the recent recommendations
14:07:38 [Karen]
...I have been pretty busy
14:07:43 [Karen]
...the copyright issue is complex
14:07:46 [Karen] of learnings we have had
14:07:54 [Karen]
...we are responsible for Crown Copyright
14:08:01 [Karen]
...even when data is allowed to be use
14:08:06 [Karen]
...the data is not always clean
14:08:12 [Karen]
...have to also handle third-party rights
14:08:23 [Karen]'t operates in an information eco-system
14:08:33 [Karen] how to think even when gov't does not claim IP
14:08:41 [Karen] we think about expression; interoperability
14:08:48 [Karen] this plays with other information made available
14:08:56 [Karen]
...and assertions being made by one agency or another
14:09:03 [Karen]
...I don't think we would advocate our historic model
14:09:08 [Karen]
...position in terms of IP in US
14:09:14 [Karen]
...means you can move potentially much faster
14:09:22 [Karen] don't have the hamstring to unhook agencies
14:09:28 [Karen]
...that have historically charged for information
14:09:33 [Karen]
...that has been a source of revenue
14:09:40 [Karen] this connects back to creating new markets
14:09:47 [Daniel_Bennett]
btw I helped get US. legislation include lack of copyright by adding Dublin Core rights piece into the XML version
14:09:52 [Karen]
...We do better at doing admin tasks
14:09:58 [Karen]
...should allow others to do that innovation
14:10:02 [Karen]
...the big issue technically
14:10:07 [Karen]
...we have to addres rights expression
14:10:15 [Karen]
...and recognize that the data won't be pure gov't data
14:10:19 [Karen] will have other stuff in it
14:10:26 [Karen]
...Anytime central gov't collects info
14:10:38 [Karen]
...each agency has its own ways to collect data
14:10:46 [Karen] have tactics to deal with some of those issues
14:10:54 [Karen]
...I can give examples of where we have done it well and badly
14:11:15 [Karen]
Kevin: So these are very important issues, but need to stay on track with our speakers
14:11:21 [Karen]
...Beth, hope you can stay
14:11:39 [Karen]
Ellen Miller, Exec. Director and Co-Founder of The Sunlight Foundation
14:11:45 [Karen] its third year now
14:11:53 [Karen]
...Sunlight is a coming together of the ripening of tech
14:11:58 [Karen]
...for citizens and gov't
14:12:07 [Karen]
...and redefining what disclosure means
14:12:17 [Karen]
...To begin, I feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole
14:12:28 [Karen]
...we think of information being about money, power, and influence
14:12:46 [Karen]
...and now to have a colleague like Beth who is brining a new perspective
14:12:51 [Karen]
...on these issues
14:12:55 [Karen]
...we should thank Beth
14:13:03 [Karen]
...not only the issues but also the philosophy
14:13:13 [Karen]
...I would like to quote my friend and colleague John Steinberg
14:13:23 [Karen]
..."The most scarey thing about the Internet for government...
14:13:38 [Karen]'s about the lightening pace of how Internet changes expectations"
14:13:45 [Karen]
...Media shift
14:14:11 [Karen]
Beth reads quote about collaboration, empowering people with mobile technology
14:14:18 [Karen]
...everything is changing
14:14:23 [Karen] we communicate with the public
14:14:30 [Karen] public communicates with us
14:14:38 [Karen]
...information age has hit Washington
14:15:06 [Karen]
...but [jokes] "most in Washington don't know the difference between a server and a waiter"
14:15:12 [Rachel]
Jose - audio is great, thx
14:15:15 [Karen] we are in the age of the revenge of the nerds
14:15:21 [Karen]
...these people really do get it
14:15:32 [Karen]
...I was asked after a feature article to speak at HHS
14:15:37 [Karen]
...I talked about use of social networks
14:15:44 [Karen]
...I asked how many people were on Twitter
14:15:51 [Karen]
...only 3 raised their hands
14:16:00 [Karen]
...then I asked about FaceBook
14:16:09 [Karen] one raised their hands; they aren't allowed to use it
14:16:25 [Karen]
Ellen describes mission of Sunlight Foundation
14:16:32 [Karen] make work of gov't and data more transparent
14:16:42 [Karen]
...and help citizenry engage; trust and participation
14:16:54 [Karen]
...We think openness will breed more trust in officials and gov't institutions
14:17:07 [Karen] serves as a catalyst to help hold gov't accoutnable
14:17:21 [Karen] help citizens to be better informed and to engage
14:17:29 [Karen] push for more transparent and accountable gov't
14:17:41 [Karen]
...Collective power of citizens to demand greater accountability
14:17:52 [Karen] sunlight; online transparency is way to do this
14:18:04 [Karen]
...we create new tools, Web sites, digitize new data bases
14:18:11 [Karen]
...and sometimes creating new databases
14:18:21 [Karen]
...given opportunities and possibilities of this new Administration
14:18:25 [Karen]
...we cited three principles
14:18:31 [Karen]
...One, public means online
14:18:42 [Karen]
...there are many documents in this town declared public
14:18:46 [Karen]
...but they are buried in the basement
14:18:52 [Karen]
...that is not acceptalbe
14:19:04 [Karen]
Two, government transparency of gov't grants and contracts
14:19:26 [Karen]
...OMB purchased a license to purchase
14:19:47 [Karen] is not a non-profit's responsibility to create databases from gov't data
14:19:56 [Karen]
Third, is data quality and presentation matter
14:20:04 [Karen]
...the garbage in/garbage out problem
14:20:09 [Karen]
...for example, lobbying data
14:20:18 [Karen]
...Lobbyists have to report interesting stuff
14:20:24 [Karen]
...bills, money, etc.
14:20:33 [Karen]
...but they don't have to report whom they are lobbying
14:20:38 [Karen]
...who they met
14:20:46 [Karen]
...If I want to lobby someone at a regulatory agency
14:20:50 [Karen]
...I don't have to report that
14:21:01 [Karen]
...given concerns with lobbying, we think transparency is the antidote
14:21:08 [Karen]
...we don't have full information
14:21:12 [Karen]
...we don't have a full picture
14:21:22 [Karen]
...let's make sure we know what we need
14:21:51 [Karen]
Those three principles come from our belief that transparency builds trust
14:22:02 [Karen]
...Cites challenges
14:22:15 [Owen]
With respect to what we need to know, it would be good if lobbyists were required to post their goals and objectives on the Web in StratML format.
14:22:24 [Karen]
...that leads to gap between public and private sector
14:22:35 [Karen] drive advocacy program of Sunlight Foundation
14:22:49 [Karen]
...we are engaged in collaboration for advocacy and research
14:22:52 [Karen]
14:23:10 [Karen]
...we use Twitter to lobby members of Senate to post campaign finance reports online
14:23:20 [Karen]
...we shall see if this is a good strategy
14:23:29 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
14:23:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see rachel, AIA, ??P32
14:23:30 [Karen]
...we digitize information in three-ring binders and post it online
14:23:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see heatherwest, Daniel_Bennett, Rachel, Karen, ari, Owen, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, trackbot
14:23:33 [Karen]
...information for access
14:23:40 [Karen]
...we took earmarks a couple of years ago
14:23:49 [Karen]
...and created bubble charts of who was getting the most earmarks
14:24:01 [Karen]
...Alaska and West Virginia were getting big earmarks
14:24:13 [Karen]
...we are in busy of developing new policy recommendations
14:24:18 [Karen]
...and we do traditional lobbying
14:24:25 [Karen] make use of social networking and technology
14:24:27 [Zakim]
14:24:32 [Karen] bring gov't into 21st Century
14:24:38 [markthomas]
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14:24:45 [Karen]
...When President Obama issued his memo on transparency
14:24:52 [Karen]
...We issued Our Open Gov't List
14:24:58 [Karen]
...we had some ideas that we put up
14:25:07 [Karen]
...and invited the community we have been developing and nurturing
14:25:09 [Karen] participate
14:25:20 [Karen] we wanted to be transparent and collaborative
14:25:21 [Owen]
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14:25:24 [Karen] this project is maturing
14:25:30 [Karen]
...hundreds of people are participating
14:25:39 [Karen]
...we are developing multiple suggestions
14:25:42 [Karen]
...we invite people
14:25:51 [Karen]
...We funded an open government project
14:25:58 [Karen]
...Called "Show us the data"
14:26:09 [Karen]
...invite public to tell us what are their top data leads
14:26:22 [Karen]
...I am happy to talk about other Sunlight projects
14:26:37 [Karen]
...for example contest we 'stole' with permission from Vivek
14:26:40 [Karen]
...Apps for America
14:26:46 [Karen]
...that is now underway with exciting potential
14:27:00 [Karen]
...We believe the time is right to push open the door The White House has given us
14:27:08 [Karen]
...timely and accurate disclosure of information
14:27:22 [Karen]
...a cross-partizan effort to engage citizens
14:27:32 [Karen]
...use technology to help build trust
14:27:36 [Karen]
...happy to take questions
14:27:51 [Karen]
Brand Niemann: will you be participating in the new site?
14:27:59 [Karen]
Ellen: in any way we can, yes, we will
14:28:06 [Karen]
...don't know what that site looks like yet
14:28:21 [Karen]
...When Sunlight makes a grant to an organization, we require that the data be in open source format
14:28:38 [Karen]
...any of our work is open source and available for the taking
14:28:45 [Karen]
Ken Fischer, Potomac Forum
14:28:52 [Karen]
...relating to creating a market with gov't data
14:28:57 [Karen]
...and prolific use of it
14:29:05 [Karen]
...Do we need some type of authentication system
14:29:16 [Karen]
...some mark to authenticate the data
14:29:21 [Karen]
...and track who is usin it
14:29:30 [Karen]
...what if people are not all using it for good
14:29:37 [Karen]
...what if data put up is incorrect
14:29:44 [Karen]
...then we have a debate about what is right
14:29:54 [Karen]
...should we track who uses it an authenticate the data
14:30:01 [Karen] could become a free-for-all
14:30:08 [Karen]
...should we adopt Google and MapQuest methods?
14:30:27 [Karen]
Ellen: Yes, open to these ideas
14:30:35 [Karen]
...there will be some abuse of the data
14:30:40 [Karen]
...either intentional or not
14:30:54 [Owen]
Having checked out Beth's pedigree, I looked for a strategic plan on IILP's site. Didn't see one but inferred one from the information on the site. It is now available in StratML format at
14:30:57 [Karen]
...or ways data is presented can be less accurate
14:31:06 [Karen] we authenticate data is a big question
14:31:10 [Karen]
...welcome your thoughts on that
14:31:20 [Karen]
...Sunlight encourages people in this direction
14:31:21 [OAmbur]
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14:31:36 [Karen]
...we fund a Sunlight team, or groups with long-standing reputation for developing data sets
14:31:50 [Karen]
Kevin Novak: Ellen made my life interesting for two years at Library of Congress
14:32:04 [Karen] maintain information
14:32:11 [Karen]
...there are technical solutions
14:32:16 [Zakim]
14:32:19 [Karen]
...but we need to address non-technical approaches
14:32:35 [Karen]
DanielB: I would like to vehemently disagree
14:32:44 [Karen]
...I know there is digital signature
14:32:50 [Karen] US we have the first amendment
14:33:02 [Karen]
...we have people who lie about data all the time
14:33:15 [Karen]
...but it's a separate question of trustin whether you are on a gov't Web site
14:33:21 [Karen]
...and authenticate the raw data
14:33:40 [Karen]
...Verify what THe Constitution actually says, versus what someone else says
14:33:47 [Karen]
Suzanne: Back to data sets via
14:33:58 [Karen]
...Federal CIOs under Vivek's oversight
14:34:03 [Karen]
...produced a memo yesterday
14:34:12 [Karen]
...for three to five consumable data sets
14:34:18 [Karen] provide these by next Tuesday
14:34:22 [Karen] those data sets are validated
14:34:30 [Karen] they get posted on is unknown
14:34:36 [Karen]
...will Sunlight play a role?
14:34:46 [Karen]
Ellen: we have not yet, but would be open
14:34:50 [Karen]
...have to be patient
14:34:59 [Karen]
...a lot of experimentation will go on
14:35:05 [Karen]
...some things we will get right, others not
14:35:20 [Karen]
...I don't think we should wait for to get fully architected
14:35:29 [Karen] is a good case
14:35:34 [Karen]
...we have made a number of recommendations
14:35:43 [Karen]
...our number one, is give us the raw stuff [data]
14:35:49 [Karen]
...and we can take it to the next level
14:35:58 [Karen]
...raw stuff plus machine-readable formats
14:36:02 [Karen]
...for the data
14:36:14 [Karen]
...and then create some tools for easy user interface, that would be enough
14:36:20 [Karen]
...I have seen a critique of
14:36:35 [Karen]
...I think it's too soon; we need to appreciate the work that's being done
14:36:45 [Karen]
...not judge "too soon", but not sure what that timeline is
14:37:00 [Karen]
...for example disclosure forms of appointees not yet available
14:37:06 [Karen]
...I have alerted some people to taht
14:37:08 [Karen]
14:37:14 [Karen]
Suzanne: That totally resonates
14:37:29 [Karen]
...It is the subcommittee's recommendation to start small
14:37:32 [Karen]
...put something out there
14:37:35 [Karen]
...go incrementally
14:37:55 [Karen]
John, Sunlight Foundation: good to praise the CIO Council for putting out that memo
14:38:00 [Karen], based on spending bill
14:38:09 [Karen]
...language directing agencies for bulk data access
14:38:18 [Karen]
...GPO and others are looking at data authentication
14:38:30 [Karen]
...echo that when members of Congress started to use email
14:38:40 [Karen]
...they were concerned about others editing their messages
14:38:45 [Karen] that's similar situation
14:38:53 [Karen] long as original source information is available
14:38:57 [Karen]
...that helps to reduce risk
14:39:10 [Karen]
Daniel: hard to explain to people that lying about stuff is not a problem
14:39:21 [Karen]
Chris Doborek: Regarding
14:39:30 [Karen]
...people feel like Niagara Falls is coming at them
14:39:37 [Karen]
...they have 15-20 year old systems
14:39:48 [Karen] concern is with career folks to disappear into their shells
14:39:58 [Karen]
...I am happy to see CIO Council looking at quick wins
14:40:04 [Karen]
...but it is a monumental mind set change
14:40:07 [Karen]
...for most gov't agencies
14:40:12 [Karen] publish raw data
14:40:19 [Karen]
...and not go through many processes
14:40:32 [Karen]
Mark: three quick points
14:40:40 [Karen]
...some W3C work about use of data
14:40:58 [Karen]
...Ellen, thanks for great work at Sunlight
14:41:04 [Karen]
...when there is more data made available
14:41:13 [Karen]
...not always case that everyone can take advantage of that data
14:41:19 [Karen]
...may be some well coordinated interestes
14:41:27 [Karen] it would be valuable to encode policy
14:41:33 [Karen] it's released into public domain
14:41:40 [Karen]
...ability to allow less coordinated interests
14:41:50 [Karen] have access to gov't policy in executable form
14:41:55 [Karen]
...I call that smart policy
14:41:57 [Karen]
...Third point
14:42:04 [Karen] talk about presumption that raw data is what we need
14:42:09 [Karen]
...useful in the W3C context
14:42:15 [Karen] of the principals of Semantic Web
14:42:24 [Karen] that URIs can be specified in a persistent form
14:42:30 [Karen]
...John Sheridan has a use case
14:42:39 [Karen] if Tim Berners-Lee were here
14:42:53 [Karen]
...he would probably say gov't has a role in specifying URIs
14:43:02 [Karen]
...some work has been done in gov't data in RDF
14:43:08 [Karen]
Kevin: I would like to hold questions now
14:43:18 [Karen]
...we need to discuss these topics in sessions
14:43:25 [Karen]
Beth: I need to host another meeting
14:43:30 [Karen]
...please excuse me
14:43:51 [Karen]
...I will follow Chris' Tweat
14:43:54 [Karen]
14:44:12 [Karen]
Kevin: thank you very much, Beth
14:44:21 [Karen]
Steve Ressler
14:44:31 [Karen] thing Ellen mentioned is "revenge of the nerds"
14:44:39 [Karen]
...or "the rise of the Rasmussen"
14:45:50 [Karen]
Steve: we have always had Town Halls
14:46:15 [Karen] we are going to do that onlin
14:46:22 [Karen]
...with a turbo-charged rocket
14:46:30 [Karen]
...a few years ago I came to gov't
14:46:32 [josema]
14:46:38 [Karen]
...and tried to figure out things
14:46:51 [Karen]
...with a few friends
14:47:04 [Karen]
...discovered that essentially people want to talk to each other
14:47:09 [Karen]
...and hear about the work they are doing
14:47:14 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:47:14 [RRSAgent]
14:47:16 [Karen]
...As part of young gov't leaders
14:47:24 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
14:47:25 [Karen] W3C, you have smart people coming together
14:47:31 [Karen]
...great people, great conversations
14:47:39 [Karen]
...ICA-IT in Seoul, Korea
14:47:44 [Karen]
...great ideas and great conversation
14:47:57 [Karen]
...get permission to go
14:48:08 [Karen]
...but then sometimes conversations die down
14:48:15 [Karen] Govloop idea is for information sharing
14:48:28 [Karen]
...whether city manager, or state, nat'l person
14:48:33 [Karen]
...launched eight months ago
14:48:40 [Karen]
...we have 7200 members right now
14:48:44 [Karen]
...the value is the stories you hear
14:48:50 [Karen] place to do that already
14:48:59 [Karen] lady in HR in NIH
14:49:13 [Karen]
...had a boss who asked for pay grade analysis across other agencies
14:49:21 [Karen]
...if you don't have a rolodex, it's difficult
14:49:36 [Karen] she posted responses and got answers in about an hour
14:49:53 [Karen] the UK, you post a report, and suddenly people are dialoguing
14:50:00 [Karen] bring more voices to the talbe
14:50:03 [Karen]
14:50:08 [Karen]
...and connect communities
14:50:12 [Karen] new people
14:50:26 [Karen]
...a former journalist who has really smart thoughts
14:50:32 [Karen]
...emerging as a gov2.0 leader
14:50:49 [Karen]
...people jumping into these communities
14:51:00 [Karen]
...and get access to public service people at high levels
14:51:08 [Karen]
...we are going to see interesting developments over years
14:51:11 [Karen] cool ideas
14:51:20 [Karen]
...and I'm happy to be a part of it and part of the conversation
14:51:30 [Karen] pass the word, join in, ping me on Twitter
14:51:36 [Karen]
Jose: Any questions?
14:51:44 [Karen]
Daniel: Comment
14:51:50 [Karen]
...I am a rookie with 25 points
14:51:53 [Karen]
...I appreciate it
14:52:01 [Karen]'s an interesting, out of band communications tool
14:52:06 [Karen]
...I have been starting to take a look at
14:52:19 [Karen]
Chris: you can bribe him for points [laughs]
14:52:30 [Karen]
Steve: it's an informal network
14:52:51 [Karen] some people can only comment inside the fireware
14:53:02 [Karen] I sent an email to encourage inside folks to engage
14:53:14 [Karen]
...great opportunity to have two communities tap in
14:53:27 [Karen]
Daniel: does it allow you to syndicate to them inside?
14:53:41 [Karen]
Steve: Govloop is based on platform with limited functionality
14:53:43 [Karen] not yet
14:53:49 [Karen]
...integrate with open social and open id
14:53:52 [Karen]
...maybe down the line
14:54:01 [Karen]
Brand: Can you support data posting functions?
14:54:11 [Karen]
...maybe you and others could encourage posting of data
14:54:16 [Karen]
...then could be federated
14:54:31 [Karen]
Steve: I have so many hours in the day, but would welcome some other folks to hack with me
14:54:59 [Karen]
Break for ten minutes
14:55:03 [Zakim]
15:03:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.714.348.aaee
15:06:33 [Zakim]
- +1.714.348.aaee
15:12:24 [josema]
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15:12:35 [josema]
[only summarized topics from now on]
15:13:06 [josema]
topic: Participation and Citizen Engagement, Use of Social Media
15:15:21 [ari]
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15:22:51 [josema]
15:23:04 [josema]
[john is reviewing the issues raised there]
15:23:44 [joec]
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15:30:00 [josema]
you might also want to follow
15:30:52 [josema]
[discussion on context of communications and roles of public employees]
15:31:15 [Karen]
Daniel Bennet: elected officials have an opportunity to better educate citizens about multiple roles and hats
15:31:47 [Karen]
...for example, officials have to comply with laws and policies when wearing official hats using gov't resources
15:32:17 [Karen]
Laura Lee Dooley, World Resources Institute
15:32:26 [Karen]
...I am seeing a real need for training
15:32:34 [Karen]
...what are these tools, how do we use them
15:32:44 [Karen] do we listen, what is an RSS feed?
15:33:03 [josema]
[need of training the public servants comes up again]
15:33:07 [Karen]
...and they are thinking about how to use social media to communicate ith their communities
15:33:24 [Karen]
Kevin: Are you hearing that those certain tools?
15:33:31 [Karen]
...are there certain things we should focus on?
15:33:41 [Karen]
...or is it a more global questions
15:34:55 [josema]
-> W3C Workshop on the Future of Social Networking
15:36:03 [Karen]
George Thomas: what is W3C's role in social media, linking gov't data
15:36:13 [Karen]
...looking forward to discussion later today on data integration
15:36:32 [josema]
Report at:
15:36:37 [josema]
see section on Next Steps
15:36:49 [Karen]
Need for clarify of terms; what all this means
15:38:02 [Karen]
Josema: W3C has a Future of Social Networking Group
15:39:06 [Karen]
We will be working on a number of issues
15:40:01 [Karen]
eGov will have coordination with the social networking group
15:41:09 [Karen]
George: interoperability standards to overcome walled gardens with social media is good
15:41:17 [Karen]
...wanted to give message about urgency of now
15:41:31 [Karen]
Jose: Discussing my two hats last evening
15:41:45 [Karen]
...W3C work for eGov, and consulting work for my CTIC institute
15:41:59 [Karen]
...what I am seeing is a lot of gov't people coming to our institute
15:42:07 [Karen]
...because of high interest in social media
15:42:15 [Karen]
...there is a need to address strategy
15:42:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.714.348.aaff
15:42:23 [Karen]
...what they need to use social media for
15:42:35 [Karen]
...then understand how to best use the right tools
15:43:12 [Karen]
Rick: So here is a suggestion for a social media use case
15:43:17 [Karen]
...we talked about cook URIs
15:43:22 [Karen]
...we should talk about cool memes
15:43:33 [Karen] is a unit of cultural information that is copied from place to place
15:43:35 [josema]
15:43:49 [Karen]
George: so connect tags more directly
15:44:55 [Karen]
Brand: I hear the news headlines about challenging economy
15:44:55 [OAmbur]
If a strategy is drafted for addressing the use of social media by .gov folks, I will be glad to render it in StratML format.
15:45:08 [Karen]
...and the W3C eGov charter
15:45:37 [Karen]
...for example, get enterprise architects out there talking to people
15:45:40 [josema]
Btw, Tim's talk at TED, on Social Networks' Walled Gardens and Linked Data;
15:45:42 [Karen]
...we are in a global depression
15:45:52 [Karen]
...maybe we need to focus on these bigger issues
15:46:03 [Karen]
...what else could we do to help people?
15:46:08 [OAmbur]
Yes, Karen, I am listening via Skype.
15:46:13 [Karen]
...and of course use social networking tools
15:46:18 [Karen]
...I would like to suggest a higher vision
15:46:34 [Karen]
...So for some, WWW is furthest from their mind
15:46:43 [Karen]
...So maybe we need to think more about them
15:46:51 [Karen]
...we can work out technical details to serve the higher good
15:47:37 [Karen]
Kevin: So many things to think about, also disability
15:47:42 [Karen]
...and access in general
15:47:49 [Karen]
...what is the tangible focus?
15:47:59 [Karen]
Brand: get out of your office and look at real world problems
15:48:14 [Karen]
...what do homeless people need for example
15:48:22 [Karen]
Kevin: not to be on a social soapbox
15:48:33 [Karen]
...we are priviledged here
15:48:43 [Karen]
...worked on World Digital Library project
15:48:58 [Karen]
...challenges in other parts of the world to get access
15:49:39 [Karen]
Diane: coming out of social networking community
15:49:43 [Karen] the tagging of metadata
15:49:47 [Karen]
...and how this brings up issues
15:49:53 [Karen]
...that is a big thing going on in Canada
15:50:05 [Karen]
...especially issue of homelessness in Vancouver with Olympics
15:50:08 [josema]
Here's another relevant bit from the developing world:
15:50:11 [Karen]
...So W3C's role is to create the technologies
15:50:22 [Karen]
...and help surface issues before they become a critical mass
15:50:33 [Karen]
...get information out, help people
15:50:41 [Karen]
...hearing great stories from crises
15:50:48 [Karen]
...get to data faster
15:50:51 [Karen]
...surface issues up
15:51:05 [Karen]
...raise the visibility and get a critical mass
15:51:17 [Karen]
...not sure we will do device independence in the sub-Sahara
15:51:29 [Karen]
...not sure if it's tech, hardware, what issue
15:51:44 [Karen]
Ken: social media tools and techniques
15:51:50 [Karen]
...also about creating trust
15:52:01 [Karen] in the financial community, there is a huge lack of trust all the way around
15:52:05 [Karen]
...need to build trust
15:52:17 [Zakim]
- +1.714.348.aaff
15:54:57 [Karen]
Chris Jerdonek, Granicus, Inc.
15:55:04 [Karen]
[missed comment]
15:56:05 [Karen]
John: tools we need inter-related to these issues
15:56:56 [Karen]
Ben Barnett, Media Bureau
15:57:07 [Karen]
...I can't help wonder if we are reaching for the stars
15:57:15 [Karen]
...following blogging for some time
15:57:20 [Karen]
...are we asking the right questions
15:57:28 [Karen]
...what do we need to get standardized
15:57:38 [Karen]
...will that ever happen; that we get things standardized?
15:57:48 [Karen]
...the debate on blogging and micro blogging
15:57:52 [Karen] good use case
15:58:00 [Karen]
...of directions social networking can take
15:58:06 [Karen] a futurist and technologist,
15:58:11 [Karen]
...this could take place at any time
15:58:19 [Karen]
...and of course things get out of date
15:58:48 [Karen]
[Speaker] Wonder what other int'l orgs W3C is laising with
15:58:59 [Karen]
Jose: we have liaisons with a number of groups
15:59:14 [Karen]
...Daniel Dardailler attends these high-level policy meetings
15:59:34 [Karen]
...what we are looking to do is bridge conversations between policy and technical peop;le
15:59:36 [Karen]
15:59:44 [Karen]
Diane: "where's the beef?
15:59:55 [Karen]
...I love the commentary, the tweets, etc.
16:00:00 [Karen]
...but I want the data
16:00:08 [Karen]
...we are not seeing the ability to drill down on AIG
16:00:14 [Karen]
...what happened, then share the information
16:00:18 [Karen]
...blogs are infomrative
16:00:32 [Karen]
...but I don't have the grounding in the source data for the comments
16:00:35 [Karen]
...that's the missing link
16:00:39 [Karen]
...that's where W3C could help
16:00:47 [Karen]
...connect the discussion to the source data
16:00:56 [Karen]
...and connect to
16:01:03 [Karen]
...with my blog
16:01:16 [Karen] do I get their source data, the goals and how to measure
16:01:28 [Karen] to facilitate connection to source data
16:01:45 [Karen]
[] Playing off Rick's idea of "cool meme"
16:01:51 [Karen] a hash tag
16:01:58 [Karen]
...what people Google
16:02:06 [Karen]
...bridge common parlance and common sources
16:02:10 [Owen]
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16:02:14 [Karen]
...memes for these terms is a useful idea
16:02:14 [Zakim]
16:02:15 [josema]
s/[]/John Wonderlich
16:02:27 [Karen]
DanielB: another provocation
16:02:36 [Karen]
...what should a person know before they open their mouth
16:02:49 [Karen]
...people may offer opinions but don't know source material
16:02:55 [Karen]
...or they don't know how gov't works
16:02:56 [josema]
s/[Speaker]/John Wonderlich
16:03:09 [Karen] of things Congress reps send out is how a bill becomes law
16:04:10 [OAmbur]
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16:04:14 [Karen]
Laura Lee: on issue of social media
16:04:21 [Karen]
...being able to ask others where information is
16:04:38 [Karen] still need someone who is listening and pointing people to where the data is
16:04:46 [Karen] cannot know where all the data is
16:05:30 [Karen]
John: so there is a view that gov't's role is just to push the data out
16:05:35 [Karen]
...what do people think?
16:05:56 [Karen]
...or should W3C focus on other things?
16:06:12 [OAmbur]
Since Jose referenced, I inferred their mission and goal from their Web site and posted it in StratML format at
16:06:14 [Karen]
JohnW: Refering to Princeton paper
16:06:31 [Karen]
...significant concerns about what is primary responsibility
16:06:46 [Karen]
...primary agency's responsibility is to fulfill their mission
16:06:52 [Karen]
...and providing data is part of it
16:07:00 [Karen]
Ken: the lines need to be more clearly drawn
16:07:03 [Karen]
...transparency for trust
16:07:09 [Karen]
...what are the measures for success
16:07:11 [Karen]
...that's my view
16:07:24 [Karen] should be goal versus philosophy driven
16:07:36 [Karen]
DanielB: I htink there is some confusion about the word transparency
16:07:43 [Karen]
...ther is this idea that you have to be open
16:07:54 [Karen]
...role of gov't is part of a social contract
16:08:01 [Karen]'t data in US
16:08:06 [markthomas]
Princeton paper:
16:08:18 [Karen]
...for a couple hundred years, various agencies put out census info
16:08:22 [Zakim]
16:08:24 [Karen] data, nothing about how gov't works
16:08:39 [Karen]
...a mirror isn't transparent
16:08:53 [Karen]
...a big role of gov't is to provide a mirror and part of its social contract
16:09:03 [Karen]
...not always to deal with how things get done
16:09:11 [Karen]
...other more fundamental role, being that mirror
16:09:17 [Karen]
...collect and redistribute that data
16:09:26 [Karen] help promote commerce, health
16:09:32 [Karen]
...the word transparency doesn't get at that
16:09:44 [Karen]
Brand: At EPA some interesting developments
16:10:02 [Karen]
...we have been asked to link what we as employees do to further our strategic goals
16:10:23 [Karen]
...I asked whether gov't employees should have a wiki or blog to publish what I do for my agency
16:10:30 [Karen]
...and how those goals relate to gov't goals
16:10:40 [Karen]
...that becomes a resource; explain what I do
16:10:50 [Karen]
...I made same suggestion to the USGF
16:10:57 [Karen]
...retirees want to continue to help
16:11:05 [Karen] networking would be good way to do this
16:11:36 [Karen]
...capture what they do, inform public, show value to public and taxpayer
16:11:42 [Karen]
John: That's a provocation!
16:11:51 [Karen]
Ken: So at what point is that a burden on the employee
16:12:00 [Karen]
...where is the balance between productivity and use of social media
16:12:24 [Karen]
Brand: we are strongly encouraged to keep a record of our goals and accomplishments in electronic form
16:13:02 [Karen]
Owen Ambur: Employees are expected to have an annual performance plan
16:13:09 [Karen]
...tied to agency's goals and strategic plan
16:13:19 [Karen] do more of what we are required to do anyway
16:13:47 [Karen]
JohnW: So a good question, but being silly, it sounds like question of "how much should people talk at work"
16:13:58 [Karen]
...have to choose what is proper and productive
16:14:10 [Karen]
...sometimes it feels like we address new things over again
16:14:29 [Karen]
Martha Chaconas, Department of State
16:14:33 [Karen]
...what does "citizen" mean?
16:14:46 [Karen] citizen of govt; citizen of world
16:15:05 [Karen]
...if social aspect is open to the world, how do you ensure that the change is good for gov't putting it out
16:15:18 [Karen] do you know the comments are from the citizen of that gov't
16:15:25 [Karen]
DanielB: members of Congress can ignore comments
16:15:39 [Karen]
...but rule tends to be they listen entirely to people in their jurisdiction
16:15:48 [Karen]
...unless those people represent a larger group
16:16:01 [Karen]
...Federal agencies have to put things out for public comment
16:16:09 [Karen]
...I have not heard about restrictions
16:16:16 [Karen], what are the rules; two, what about noise
16:16:40 [Karen]
...for open gov't keep the doors wider
16:16:50 [Karen]
...and worry less about jurisdictional issues
16:17:04 [Karen] the quote was can have openness or you can have gov't
16:17:31 [Karen]
John: Is there stuff that gov't should not be doing at all?
16:17:46 [Karen]
Ben: yes, not release bad data, evaluate what should go out
16:17:58 [Karen]
...think about what Congress person will point to
16:18:10 [Karen] with any IT project, you are as good as your data
16:18:25 [Karen]
Josema: We are in provocation phase
16:18:34 [Karen]
...but are we in agreement that we think use of social media is good?
16:18:57 [Karen]
...I personally would not like to see gov't employees putting things into walled gardens
16:19:19 [Karen] several countries, there are discussions about how these networks should be used by gov't employees
16:19:29 [Karen]
...should gov't create its own social network
16:19:45 [Karen]
...there is an EU use case about creating something that only a few people use
16:19:55 [Karen]
Diane: the failure of EU social network
16:20:02 [Karen]
...plenty of people who can create apps
16:20:10 [Karen]
...but we need an open platform to access it
16:20:18 [Karen]
...easy to follow instructions about how to get the data
16:20:24 [Karen]
...appetite to build them is out there
16:20:32 [Karen]
...but need to build cost efficient applications
16:20:43 [Karen]
...hard to create clean applications
16:21:03 [Karen] it's the gov'ts' job to create those platforms
16:21:21 [Karen]
Josema: so the gov't has power to help push the social media companies to do the right things
16:21:23 [joec]
need overall common XML structures so data can interoperate?
16:21:30 [Karen]'t has the content
16:21:50 [Karen] networks need to clarify how they treat data
16:22:01 [Karen]
...otherwise if we replicate everywhere, we will waste money
16:22:25 [Karen]
John: show of hands for gov't pushing private sector providers to push
16:22:34 [Karen]
Alex Koudry, GSA
16:22:42 [Karen]
...we have section 508 to apply to gov't technology
16:22:48 [Karen]
...for people with diabilities
16:23:06 [Karen]
...we have procurement laws that say we cannot buy platforms that are not accessible
16:23:11 [Karen]
...although it has not panned out
16:23:17 [Karen]
Brand: I was in a Web 2.0 meeting
16:23:25 [Karen]
...a new social networking work group
16:23:39 [Karen]
...said they have entered into some agreements with Google and YouTube
16:23:53 [Karen]
JohnW: I don't think gov't should regulate how people make Web sites
16:24:02 [Karen]
...but there is a different pressure
16:24:12 [Karen]
...if you want us to use it, then you need to follow these guidelines
16:24:17 [Karen]
...pressure on use of service
16:24:25 [Karen]
...other pressure is what is happening on FaceBook
16:24:29 [Karen]
...about privacy
16:24:48 [joec]
not one us federal department website conforms to
16:24:48 [Karen]
DanielB: you have brought up an extraordinary thing that makes a good point
16:24:54 [Karen]
...terms of service is a contract
16:25:03 [Karen]'t enters into contrats with care
16:25:14 [Karen] are agreeing to terms of service
16:25:25 [Karen] of problems with Web 2.0 is speed
16:25:29 [Karen]
...moving so fast
16:25:33 [Karen] do we hit this target
16:25:40 [Karen]
...what we can think about is to publish locally
16:25:45 [Karen]
...and syndicate broadly
16:25:56 [Karen]
...if you publish on your own site in a public way and you archive it
16:26:00 [Karen]
...then that is what you should do
16:26:11 [Karen] then it's not tied up under terms of service
16:26:22 [Karen]
...but by publishing it locally, you declare there is no copyright
16:26:27 [Karen] adds extra work for gov't
16:26:34 [Karen]
...but it covers itself in terms of section 508
16:27:20 [Karen]
Ben: not sure how it works for a Congress person
16:27:29 [Karen]
...advocate 3.0 session
16:27:38 [Karen]
...the virtual room of people going to places like Congressional office
16:27:43 [Karen]
...where content is distributed
16:27:58 [Karen] whether video, or document, you go to that person's space
16:28:15 [Karen]
...I cannot see how gov't can post on all these for profit networks
16:28:29 [Karen]
Joab Jackson: the flip side
16:28:34 [Karen]
Government Computer News
16:28:39 [Karen] economic stimulus
16:28:53 [Karen]
...leave to private sector on how to present data
16:29:02 [Karen]
...considerations in terms of using gov't data
16:29:10 [Karen]
...let private sector figure best way to customize it
16:29:18 [Karen]
Diane: I would like to add onto that
16:29:33 [Karen]
...two issues are data quality and presentation layer
16:29:42 [Karen]
...YouTube is visual layer on top of data
16:29:49 [Karen]
...remains to be seen how people want to consume data
16:30:01 [Karen]
...I think there is more power in the network to build those visualizations
16:30:08 [Karen] get high quality data that is accessible
16:30:14 [Karen]
...and that will engage people
16:30:25 [Karen]'t should not dictate how to visualize that data
16:30:29 [Karen]
John: SO wrap up a bit
16:30:34 [Karen]
...we moved into open gov't data
16:30:43 [Karen]
Jason Baron, Nat'l Archives
16:30:56 [Karen] the past 3.5 hours, there are more than 3 million emails
16:31:07 [Karen]
...within gov't agencies, none of which will be transparent
16:31:15 [Karen]
...As eGov SIG, part of W3C
16:31:18 [Karen]
...I am interested
16:31:25 [Karen]
...that we take into account the scaffolding of laws
16:31:31 [Karen] obstacle is the perception
16:31:37 [Karen]
...that agencies cannot control the information flow
16:31:51 [Karen]
...if there are technical means to capture the record information, that will help
16:31:55 [Karen] will help foster a range
16:31:59 [Karen] larger point
16:32:08 [Karen] that foundationally is that there is tremendous disconnect
16:32:13 [Karen]
...between the good thoughts in this room
16:32:20 [Karen]
...and the reality on the ground
16:32:33 [Karen]
...some public servants have no idea what a wiki is
16:32:43 [Karen]
...we need education and training
16:32:51 [Karen]
...think about electronic preservation
16:33:03 [Karen]
...the official record keeping practice in Federal Gov't is hard copy
16:33:12 [Karen]
...until this changes, it will be difficult to move to the Web
16:33:21 [Karen]
...a lot of the important data that the gov't possess
16:33:24 [Karen]
John: good point
16:33:33 [Karen]
...we talked about participation and engagement challenges
16:33:41 [Karen] they are relevant for toosl
16:33:43 [Karen]
16:33:54 [Karen]
...whether gov't should influence tools from private sector
16:34:01 [Karen]
...implications of gov't using tools
16:34:11 [Karen]
...and wandered into open gov't data which is focus after lunch
16:34:14 [Karen]
See you at 2:00pm
16:37:03 [Zakim]
17:30:42 [ari]
ari has joined #egov
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heatherwest has joined #egov
18:09:48 [markthomas]
markthomas has joined #egov
18:10:10 [Karen]
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18:10:33 [Karen]
Jose gives summary of morning session and issues that came forward
18:11:01 [Karen]
encourages everyone to continue to bring issues and challenges forward
18:11:43 [Karen]
Jose: John Sheridan to give a short presentation
18:12:55 [Karen]
John: starting with a quote I love
18:13:25 [Karen]
...POI task force
18:13:33 [Karen]
...has identified six issues:
18:13:38 [Karen]
...Discovery: can I find data
18:13:44 [Karen] I allowed to use data
18:13:53 [Karen]
...Technical: is data in right format
18:14:01 [Karen]
...Commercial: can I afford to buy data I need
18:14:10 [Karen]
Intelligibility can I interpret
18:14:19 [Karen]
Dependancies: what else does it depend upon
18:14:36 [Karen]
...Traditional approach to Websites; data layer
18:14:42 [Karen]
...that you cannot get at
18:14:49 [Karen]
...analysis layer that you can't get at
18:14:54 [Karen]
...and a presentation layer
18:15:00 [Karen]
...maybe valide HTML if you are lucky
18:15:08 [Karen]
...problem is that the data is all at the bottom
18:15:14 [Karen] only get the presentation
18:15:26 [Karen]
...the Power of Information Architecture group
18:15:34 [Karen]
...looks at new layers
18:17:57 [Karen]
...why scrape when you can parse
18:18:24 [Karen]
...we have been active participants in contributing to linked data databases
18:18:41 [Karen]
...Semantic Web is about an intuitive Web that is a Web of documents
18:18:54 [Karen]
...and the Web of data
18:19:11 [Karen]
18:19:26 [Karen] about links with flavour
18:19:42 [Karen]
...connects information and points to description of that information
18:19:55 [Karen]
...similar initiative is microformats
18:20:08 [Karen]
...some challenges using microformats with government
18:20:33 [Karen]
...motive to introduce people to both microformats and RDFa
18:20:52 [Karen]
...Currently working on an initiative called DirectGov
18:21:01 [Karen]
...think about RDFa as microformats for government
18:21:04 [Karen]
...a standard for data
18:21:25 [josema]
josema has joined #egov
18:21:33 [Karen]
...provides way to surface info and adapt Web site to be an API and serve the data
18:21:41 [Karen]
...RDFa is a W3C standard
18:21:42 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:21:42 [RRSAgent]
18:21:48 [josema]
rrsagent, draf minutes
18:21:48 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draf minutes', josema. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:21:53 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:21:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
18:21:53 [Karen] it doesn't have issue around accessibility
18:21:59 [Karen]'s a technology we can evolve
18:22:03 [Karen]
...and tweak existing sites
18:22:13 [Karen] we don't have to build lots of separate APIs
18:22:22 [Karen]
...Some examples how UK gov't is using RDFa
18:22:27 [Karen]
...first is public sector jobs
18:22:43 [Karen]'t posts its job vacacancies on its own sites
18:23:02 [Karen] if you are an electrician, how do you know whose site to review
18:23:11 [Karen]
...need to search by skill set
18:23:22 [Karen] we want every dept. to publish job information
18:23:46 [Karen]
...and make the data able to be consumed
18:24:21 [Karen]
...the real benefit of this approach
18:24:43 [Karen] we can aggregate data on the Web without building new systems underneath
18:24:50 [Karen]
...another example is consultations
18:25:08 [Karen] place to find all the department consultations
18:25:17 [Karen]
...we are using RDFa as a way of marketing up
18:25:29 [Karen]
18:25:54 [Karen]
...we want data in one place, yet we have a distributed data model
18:26:12 [Karen]
...want to have benefits of data aggregation but low costs
18:26:25 [Karen]
...this is a much lighter weight approach
18:26:36 [Karen]
...use existing Web sites and not re-engineer
18:26:45 [Karen]
...use services like Yahoo's Search Monkey
18:26:49 [Karen] looks up RDFa
18:27:03 [Karen]
...lets you pick up results, for example, a job
18:27:17 [Karen]
...Another example
18:27:27 [Karen] to add to the available data sources
18:27:49 [Karen]
...very easy to do in an open source content management system
18:28:09 [Karen]
...What got us down this road was a project with The London Gazette
18:28:14 [Karen]
...has been published since 1665
18:28:22 [Zakim]
18:28:27 [Karen]
...King Charles II took his Court to Oxford and started this newspaper
18:28:32 [Karen]
...we have kept it going
18:28:39 [Karen] is published every day
18:28:44 [Karen] is the print version
18:28:58 [Karen] has things like traffic notices, planning notices, move parking places on a street
18:29:13 [Karen]
...notices around water, like factories
18:29:20 [Karen]
...licensing of medicines
18:29:31 [Karen]
...insolvencies for businesses or individuals
18:29:35 [Karen]
...awards, honors
18:29:49 [Karen]
...premium bonds that have not been claimed
18:30:03 [Karen]
...this is published every day, and incredibly rich as a source of data
18:30:14 [Karen]
...hard to read; 500 printed copies go into libraries mostly
18:30:58 [Karen]
John reads long notice; it's about someone taking away a parking place
18:31:07 [Karen]
...So what can we do to unlock this information?
18:31:10 [Karen]
...using RDFa
18:31:29 [Karen]
...notice of a company going into insolvency
18:31:44 [Karen] we publish the same info in RDFa, semantically enabled
18:31:57 [Karen] we put data in same context as the notice
18:32:02 [Karen]
...embed extra metadata
18:32:09 [Karen] any RDFa parser can pull out the results
18:32:17 [Karen]
...or you can get data in RDF XML
18:32:34 [Karen]
...We are adding attributes inside the XHTML
18:32:41 [Karen] make statements about what is in the notice
18:33:18 [Karen]
...add these attributes in the HTML mark-up
18:33:31 [Karen]
...What it means that you can move from a notice to a map
18:33:45 [Karen] you can see where the parking place is being moved on a map
18:34:07 [Karen]
...Benefits of RDFa: Flexibility in how info is prsented
18:34:15 [Karen]
...while ensuring consistency of content
18:34:25 [Karen]
...improves finding the location of relevant data
18:35:05 [Karen]
...Back to some of challenges: helps us with discovery, legal, technical, intelligibility, and dependencies
18:35:46 [Karen]
18:35:51 [Karen]
Diane Mueller, XBRL
18:35:59 [Karen]
London Gazette is great example
18:36:07 [Karen]
...where is the ontology being built?
18:36:15 [Karen]
JohnS: We built about 20 ontologies
18:36:19 [Karen]
...mostly light weight
18:36:23 [Karen] get to this point
18:36:31 [Karen]
...We had to build some general ontology about notices
18:36:58 [Karen]
...our approach was to build only where we had to
18:37:41 [Karen]
...also built an ontology where we didn't have the best domain expertise
18:37:52 [Karen]
...would encourage domain groups to do this
18:37:59 [Karen]
...but we are careful to use a proxy term
18:38:12 [Karen]
...because we cannot wait for everyone to do this work
18:38:22 [Karen]
...ontology, content management, to implementation
18:38:37 [Karen]
...was about 100,000 pounds sterling
18:38:56 [Karen]
...It was hard to get the funding
18:39:14 [Karen]
Brand: for The London Gazette application?
18:39:28 [Karen] there a way to determine cost benefits?
18:39:31 [Karen]
...the business case
18:39:39 [Karen]
...did you have to make one?
18:39:42 [Karen] there an ROI?
18:40:03 [Karen]
JohnS: it helps that part of gov't does this, also has the policy responsibility
18:40:15 [Karen]
...wanted to find low-cost tactics to make data re-usable
18:40:19 [Karen] a pilot test case
18:40:36 [Karen]
...another aspect, is people have to place a small fee to place a notice
18:40:56 [Karen]
...inelastic demand; you have to place a notice
18:41:08 [Karen]
...but use of data should be reused and is free
18:41:19 [Karen]
...paper based product serves no purpose
18:41:32 [Karen]
...but as a Semantic Web enabled product, it has data that could be useful
18:41:41 [Karen] that basically is the business case
18:42:15 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
18:42:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AIA, ??P1
18:42:17 [Karen]
Brand: is there a broader strategy to move from print to electronic delivery?
18:42:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see josema, Karen, markthomas, heatherwest, OAmbur, joec, Daniel_Bennett, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot
18:42:44 [Karen]
John: yes, our public policy agenda is to encourage re-use of data
18:42:56 [Karen]
...needed to find ways to demonstrate
18:43:04 [Karen] how to unlock data
18:43:19 [Karen]
...rather than go to a big supplier for an expensive solution
18:43:29 [Karen]
...How do you provide access to the data and do analysis
18:43:33 [Karen]
...that was the thinking
18:43:44 [Karen]
Brand: it would be useful to have this written up somewhere
18:44:02 [Karen] is part of a number of improvements you want to make
18:44:09 [Karen] move towards more agile electronic delivery
18:44:18 [Karen]
...have you laid out that broader business case
18:44:24 [josema]
18:45:02 [Karen]
...I'm wondering how you present this to managers
18:45:23 [Karen]
...can you write that up?
18:45:42 [Karen]
JohnS: the real business driver is not nec. return on investment
18:45:52 [Karen] will be transformation of public service delivery outcomes
18:46:18 [Karen]
...this is about spending some of money in a different way to release data as part of an ecosystem
18:46:25 [Karen]
...that starts the public poicy drivers
18:46:33 [Karen] let's look at school inspection information
18:46:36 [Karen]
...they have PDF files
18:46:53 [Karen]
...if they published in RDFa, there could be analysis of performance
18:47:04 [Karen]
...compelling business case is the public policy outcome
18:47:17 [Karen]
..then it is part of a broader solution for information sharing
18:47:30 [Karen]
DanielB: another way to approach that
18:47:40 [Karen]
...before the Web, people published things in paper
18:47:52 [Karen]
...understanding of what it means to publish has been transformed by the Web
18:48:14 [Karen]
...groups now say it's fundamentally different thing to publish on the Web
18:48:28 [Karen]
...likewise, with Semantic Web, what it means to publish has also changes
18:48:32 [Karen]
18:48:34 [Karen]
...once you do that
18:48:45 [Karen] order to publish, it has to be both human and machine readable
18:48:55 [Karen]'s a definitional issue of what it means to publish
18:49:19 [Karen] revolution is that when you publish on the Web, the data has to have Semantic information
18:49:28 [Karen]
...HTML is a presenation layer
18:49:33 [Karen] just changed the definintion
18:49:46 [Karen]
...and RDFa is best way to do it from cost perspective
18:49:51 [Karen] other point is that
18:49:58 [Karen] are showing The London Gazette
18:50:05 [Karen]
...something that was human readable to start
18:50:12 [Karen]
...and are adding machine processable to start
18:50:22 [Karen]
...what gov't folks do is create data that is not human readable
18:50:31 [Karen] the question is should they make it human readable
18:50:43 [Karen]
...Gazette was to make data machine processable
18:50:54 [Karen]
...some folks put data out that's not human readable
18:51:11 [Karen]
...for example, overlay XSL on data so it's readable by humans
18:51:18 [Karen] should we also embed RDFa
18:51:42 [Karen]
JohnS: if you do the RFF, you are a long way toward achieving what you want to do
18:51:47 [Karen] is another interesting example
18:51:56 [Karen]
...Directgov is similar to USAgov
18:52:05 [Karen]
...cost of tax for different types of vehicle
18:52:13 [Karen]
...I see an API
18:52:22 [Karen]
...just eed to add some attributes
18:52:35 [Karen]
18:53:21 [Karen]
Daniel: So this enables data to be human readable
18:54:32 [Karen]
John: challenge to get people who only know the human-readable Web to understand the data Web
18:54:39 [Karen] could make a widget with this data
18:54:48 [Karen]
...and componentize services
18:54:57 [Karen]
Daniel: so this is better because people can see it
18:55:26 [Karen]
...this becomes your API, well-specified things
18:55:29 [Karen]
Ken: to restate
18:55:33 [Karen] reduce barrier to use
18:55:39 [Karen] making the core data readable
18:55:48 [joec]
we definitely need a solution that allows human and machine readability in one package otherwise the data is duplicative and possibly not identical.
18:55:51 [Karen] the past, data standards were barriers to see data
18:55:56 [Karen]
...a way to lower that barrier
18:56:06 [Karen]
JohnS: that seems tru
18:56:08 [Karen]
18:56:14 [Karen]
Ken: yes a barrier
18:56:21 [Karen]
...the data in its core form is a barrier to use
18:56:30 [Karen]
...if I debate whether to send a URL somewhere
18:56:41 [Karen] glance at URL vs. an XML format is a big difference
18:56:49 [Karen]
...removes an important barrier
18:57:00 [Karen] let'shook it up now; don't have to do this now
18:57:07 [Karen]
DanielB: you mentioned Bill Gates
18:57:11 [Karen]
...he supported smart tags
18:57:19 [Karen]
...which did a lot of what microformats did
18:57:27 [Karen]
...they had built a smart tag system
18:57:44 [Karen]
...and they tried to do all themselves instead of from places that create the data
18:58:04 [Karen]
Kevin: Ed, Chris, do you want to add to this?
18:58:26 [Karen]
Chris: great to see John's presentation
18:58:34 [Karen]
...the ROI question is important because it comes up all the time
18:58:35 [josema]
18:58:42 [Karen] are boot-strapping the process
18:59:29 [Karen]
Ed: like early Web, how do you make the case
18:59:42 [Karen]
...governments are in a unique place because they can start to boot strap things
19:00:20 [Karen]
s/Ed/Ed Summers, Library of Congress
19:00:40 [Karen]
JohnS: there was a level of risk for starting to operationalize RDFa
19:00:45 [Karen]
...before it was a W3C recommendation
19:00:51 [Karen]
...we saw the importance of its potential
19:00:58 [Karen]
...and our need to solve the core problem was so great
19:01:02 [Karen]
...we had to get going
19:01:09 [Karen], using RDFa, it's more comfortable
19:01:21 [Karen]
...there are other imlementations and it's now a W3C standard
19:01:35 [Karen]
...this is a compelling message to help people introduce this thinking and technology
19:01:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.410.992.aagg
19:01:43 [Karen]
Brand: I don't want to belabor ROI point
19:02:02 [Karen] real world, I'll take your word for it this time for a certain level of investment
19:02:19 [Karen]
...or you get "no", this is one of many ideas..
19:02:26 [Karen], is there a way to do for free
19:02:36 [Karen]
...or, I'll trust you now
19:02:44 [Karen] future, where will money come from?
19:02:55 [Karen] US, print publications are going out of business
19:03:13 [Karen]
...but some are going online and recreating as community building information
19:03:23 [Karen]
...we will actively seek to engage community
19:03:35 [Karen]
...but I think you need to have the business case ROI
19:03:40 [Karen]
...otherwise it's just a technology
19:03:48 [Karen]
...need some guidance and experience for stuff
19:04:09 [Karen]
JohnS: I want to help spend x amount and you will get better schools
19:04:18 [Karen]
...make the public policy argument for open data
19:04:25 [Karen]
...that's the case being made in the UK...
19:04:34 [Karen]
...make your school inspection data open
19:04:45 [Karen]
..and see how they are performing
19:04:48 [Zakim]
19:04:59 [Karen]
...that's the connection to take these things back to the outcome the gov't is trying to achieve
19:05:08 [Karen]
DianeM: add a variation on business case
19:05:15 [Karen]
...I come from a different perspective
19:05:21 [Karen]
...public entities filing with gov't regulators
19:05:26 [Karen] to lessen burden on filers
19:05:33 [Karen]
...not so onerous to make those filings
19:05:36 [Karen]
...only file once
19:05:39 [Karen]
...other one we hear
19:05:46 [Karen] if you look at 401K prospectus
19:05:53 [Karen]
...very difficult for consumers to get through
19:06:02 [Karen]
...have the semantic information to pop up what is an asset
19:06:08 [Karen] to understand this document
19:06:17 [Karen]
...make the documents more understandable
19:06:22 [Karen]
...where sematic knowledge comes into play
19:06:32 [Karen] The Netherlands they claim to be saving millions
19:06:41 [Karen] longer cross-process in silos
19:06:44 [Karen]
...So file once
19:06:52 [Karen]
...instead of multiple times across organizations
19:06:53 [Owen]
Owen has joined #egov
19:07:06 [Karen]
Kevin: relating back to issues paper
19:07:14 [Karen] we need more specific business cases?
19:07:15 [Zakim]
19:07:23 [Karen]
Diane: you have to give gov't organizations the business cases
19:07:25 [Karen]
...they need help
19:07:28 [Zakim]
19:07:29 [Karen]
...we found that in the XBRL world
19:07:34 [Zakim]
- +1.410.992.aagg
19:07:36 [Karen]
...need to explain the use cases as well
19:07:47 [Karen]
...and the gov't organizations here can help us with the use cases
19:07:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.410.992.aahh
19:07:54 [Karen]
...but you have to build the argument
19:08:03 [Karen]
Ken: Seems you have to show a number of quick wins
19:08:10 [Karen]
...small wins as an end use
19:08:18 [josema]
room will re-dial in a minute (some sound issues)
19:08:19 [Karen]
...and have developers create those early on
19:08:24 [Karen]
...small ROI early on
19:08:29 [Zakim]
- +1.410.992.aahh
19:08:40 [Karen]
DMurphy, BLS
19:08:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.410.992.aaii
19:08:57 [Karen] we have 4 million people hitting site per month
19:09:02 [Zakim]
19:09:04 [Zakim]
19:09:07 [Karen]
...more people can access the data
19:09:11 [josema]
there we go
19:09:17 [Karen]
...if you made a small incremental cost to add this functionality
19:09:27 [Karen] you enable banks, other gov't agencies to more cheaply digest the data
19:09:35 [Karen] for us, it may not lower the BLS costs
19:09:42 [Karen]
...these are software developmet costs
19:09:48 [Zakim]
19:09:51 [Karen]
...but it brings more value to citizens and other gov't agencies
19:10:33 [Karen]
Rick Murphy, GSA: economic metrics and studies
19:10:48 [Karen]
...sounds like part of an ROI and business case in a large scale
19:10:55 [Karen]
...may be possible to measure the benefit to society
19:11:05 [Karen]
...without presuming that it's with a narrowly defined financial measure
19:11:18 [Karen]
Daniel: yes, the public good is a good measure
19:11:26 [Karen]
...rather than narrow ROI case
19:11:32 [Karen] costs less to not publish
19:11:40 [Karen]
...but to publish in a standard way is less expensive
19:11:45 [Karen] society money
19:11:50 [Karen]
...this is a good government issue
19:11:52 [Karen]
...a case to be made
19:12:00 [Karen]
...just like a paperwork reduction act
19:12:15 [Karen]
...we should have laws that say, put stuff on Web, and make human and machine readable
19:12:47 [Karen]
...I don't think you want to do an ROI argument to make things machine and human readable
19:13:22 [Karen]
George Thomas: JohnS seems comfortable with public good argument
19:13:40 [Karen]
Owen Amber: ROI applied to rapidly changing technology
19:13:54 [Karen]
...investment is on behalf of the people of the USA, not just a single agency
19:14:02 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
19:14:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.410.992.aaii, AIA, ??P1
19:14:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Owen, josema, Karen, markthomas, heatherwest, joec, Daniel_Bennett, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot
19:14:12 [Karen]
JoeC: In WWII there were methods of operating
19:14:16 [josema]
zakim, ??P1 is probably Owen
19:14:16 [Zakim]
+Owen?; got it
19:14:20 [Karen] create a return on investment
19:14:29 [josema]
zakim, aaii is probably Joe
19:14:29 [Zakim]
+Joe?; got it
19:14:32 [Karen]
...interoperability among agencies will create an ROI
19:14:38 [Karen]
...but we don't know exactly what it will be yet
19:14:49 [Karen]
Chris Testa: yes, picking up on George's comment
19:14:51 [josema]
19:14:52 [Karen]
...return on impact
19:14:59 [Karen] do you measure the impact on issues you care about
19:15:06 [Karen]
Ken: Something called Buzz
19:15:17 [Karen]
...what I'm thinking of is creating interest and enthusiasm
19:15:28 [Owen]
For rapidly changing technology, ROI is not the most appropriate metric. Pay-back period is. How long does it take to get back the cost -- bearing in mind the investment is being made by We the People, not just the agency in question.
19:15:34 [Karen]
...if you have this, in the early stages you may not need the ROI...
19:15:46 [Karen]
...depends upon other communities to engage in these areas
19:15:55 [Karen]
Kevin: I think at some levels, it becomes a policy issue
19:16:06 [Karen]
...sometimes it depends upon who you are talking to
19:16:14 [Karen]
...there was some buzz
19:16:20 [Karen]
...after they spent a few million dollars
19:16:32 [Karen]
...the performance people starting asking questions
19:16:44 [Karen]
...agree we need to show use cases with some potential metrics
19:16:50 [Karen]
...that also equates to the public good
19:17:04 [Karen]
Ken: the amount of public good created also linked to their enthusiasm
19:17:14 [Karen]
...create that buzz and excitement so that you will get adoption
19:17:38 [Karen]
Kevin: so also watch the buzz factor
19:18:01 [Karen]
Brand: so taxpayer says we'll give you money to create public good for IT
19:18:06 [Karen]
...most goes into IT systems
19:18:14 [Karen]
...but those systems are not designed to use RDF
19:18:20 [Karen]
...much less money goes into mark-up of content
19:18:26 [Karen] what we have to do is change that process
19:18:35 [Karen]
...from now on, IT systems will be marked up in this way
19:18:50 [Karen]
...and start to apply it to all the organizations and to other countries
19:19:01 [Karen], we have redoing and retrofitting challenges
19:19:07 [Karen]
...we need to change process and get ahead of this
19:19:18 [Karen] new information automatically gets this capability
19:19:27 [Karen]
...Interesting side of this I have dealt with
19:19:31 [Karen] Library of Congress
19:19:43 [Karen]
...metadata standards of 20 years ago no longer case now
19:20:00 [Karen]
...there is some challenge
19:20:22 [Karen]
Ed: importance of small wins is key
19:20:32 [Karen]
...any attempt to change the entire IT industry is doomed to fail
19:20:39 [Karen] cannot effect change at that scale
19:20:43 [Karen]
...what John talked about
19:21:02 [Karen] that he didn't have to re-engineer a database
19:21:09 [Karen]
...he just layered it
19:21:21 [Karen]
...I think it's wrong to cast what saw presented in that light
19:21:30 [Karen]
Diane: in terms of publishing RDF tags
19:21:36 [Karen]
...or XBRL tags
19:21:51 [Karen]
...people like SAP are adding in the ability to publish XBRL
19:21:58 [Karen]
...not that you have to individually wrap content
19:22:03 [Karen] is becoming part of it
19:22:14 [Karen]
...there are methodologies that make it part of the publishing process
19:22:21 [Karen] build the ontology for the domain
19:22:28 [Karen]'s part of the process and workflow
19:22:36 [Karen]
Ed: yes, thanks for clarification
19:22:41 [Karen]
Daniel: changing subject
19:22:47 [Karen]
...XHTML, if valid
19:22:53 [Karen] can XSLT it into something else
19:23:00 [Karen]
...and you can put in metadata that overlaps
19:23:08 [Karen] you can use more than one set of ontologies
19:23:30 [Karen]
...doing more than one standard is great
19:23:36 [Karen]
...I looked at name spaces for the ontologies
19:23:42 [Karen]
...are there schemas for the ontologies?
19:23:46 [Karen]
...So I know what is valid?
19:24:02 [Karen]
...within each one of those things, can I find out what is legitimate
19:24:27 [Karen]
JohnS: The RDFa was added to a publishing process with XML
19:24:34 [Karen]
...we have not added anything additional
19:24:41 [Karen]
...some of info is submitted through Webforms
19:24:51 [Karen]
...quality of data still where it was at
19:25:00 [Karen] schemas for ontology, but schemas for the data
19:25:24 [Karen]
George: could you reiterate those 20 ontologies you spoke about
19:25:30 [Karen]
...I wonder if XML folks understand
19:25:40 [Karen] may want to reiterate that
19:25:50 [Karen]
JohnS: we had a number of problems to solve
19:26:02 [Karen]
...the XML captured info about the notice
19:26:07 [Karen]
...mostly typographical
19:26:10 [Karen]
...when we moved to RDF
19:26:19 [Karen]
...we wanted to say thigns about what the notice was about
19:26:28 [Karen]
...that was a big difference in terms of what was being modeled
19:26:32 [Karen] can see this yourself
19:26:37 [Karen]
...there are some generic ontologies
19:26:46 [Karen]
...some are specific to things, processes
19:26:50 [Karen]
19:28:14 [josema]
19:28:37 [josema]
[more summarized now, due to scribe skills and participation in the session]
19:29:48 [josema]
[there's underlying data in some cases, but releasing that data is till being moved to the publication workflow]
19:30:06 [josema]
19:32:54 [josema]
[some stuff, e.g. microformats don't have an XML Schema behind]
19:33:54 [josema]
[XML vs. RDF and open world assumption]
19:36:15 [josema]
Daniel: all government Web sites should be accessible, but more importantly don't lie about it
19:36:55 [josema]
[conformance vs. declaration of conformance]
19:40:44 [josema]
[short break]
20:00:01 [joec]
20:00:09 [josema]
[back from break]
20:05:55 [josema]
[joe goes through the example]
20:06:02 [josema]
topic: Interoperability
20:13:23 [Zakim]
20:19:00 [Karen]
20:21:51 [josema]
[Diane on the need of having a common taxonomy across government to do this sort of transformation more automatically]
20:28:16 [Karen]
Diane: how do you get domain knowledge from the spread sheets?
20:28:29 [Karen]
Brand: We put spread sheets into natural groupings into domain
20:28:35 [Karen]
...set aside into data dictionary
20:28:51 [Karen] for exmaple, transportation and then sub-topics
20:28:55 [josema]
Design Pattern for publishing gov. data whihc is held as spreadsheets. Use the spreadsheet natively and expose the data as RDF
20:28:57 [Karen]
...I put those in together
20:29:31 [Karen]
...Tool we have uses whatever data dictionary information you put in, or it will crank out ontology as best it can
20:29:37 [Karen]
...then you can work interactively
20:29:39 [josema]
tool uses a data dictionary, to build ontology, or will build ontology as best it can.
20:29:47 [Karen]
...but there is no substitute for domain expertise
20:30:00 [josema]
scribe: Karen
20:30:15 [josema]
20:30:39 [Karen]
JohnS: I really like what you just described as a process for government data in spreadsheets
20:30:49 [Karen]
...we can hold data natively, expose it as RDF
20:31:22 [Karen]
Brand: Brian Donnelley with Semantic Discovery has done this in the UK
20:31:34 [Karen]
...we are going to present this at the Semantic Technology conference in June in San Jose
20:31:44 [Karen]
...the other group is Lee Feigenbaum from Cambridge Semantics
20:32:06 [Karen]
...this came out of a W3C Workshop Tim Berners-Lee invited us to on RDB to RDF data
20:32:21 [Karen]
...and I emphasized challenges around spreadsheets
20:32:37 [Karen]
[?] Where is the Web Site?
20:32:52 [Karen]
Brand: and follow demos
20:33:00 [Karen] Cambridge Semantics and Semantic Discovery
20:33:05 [Karen]
...or send me email to dialogue
20:33:12 [Karen]
Daniel: I will take a look at this
20:33:22 [Karen]
...I would like to think of Excel spreadsheets as a tool of the past
20:33:33 [Karen]
...they don't deal with complex objects the way XML does
20:33:39 [Karen]
...would be interesting to see the mapping
20:33:50 [Karen]
...RDF seems to love columnar data; but I need to look at this more
20:33:55 [Karen]
20:33:55 [josema]
examples Brand referred to:
20:34:04 [Karen]
...the part of standardization is important
20:34:11 [Karen]
...look at US code title section
20:34:15 [Karen]
...those are two different things
20:34:20 [Karen] is a number, one is numbers and letters
20:34:30 [Karen] you can build and XML schema for those two pieces
20:34:35 [Karen]
...and build a schema for public law
20:34:41 [Karen]
...and have name space for US code
20:34:47 [Karen]
...and same things for legislations
20:34:55 [Karen]
...separate Congress bill type, legislation
20:35:02 [Karen]
...that would allow you to build tables
20:35:06 [Karen] then you can build the links
20:35:11 [Karen]
...once you build table to the join
20:35:24 [Karen]
...have each column have links to various repositories to sources of information
20:35:31 [Karen] looks like a data dump
20:35:42 [Karen]
...but it gets you to place to find a way to ifnd info in various repositories
20:35:54 [Karen] US code, stored by Law Revision Council at Cornell
20:35:58 [Karen]
...and create link to each one of those
20:36:05 [Karen] bill where it's housed at GPO and Thomas
20:36:18 [Karen] by putting these numbers in these columns, you enable interoperability
20:36:28 [Karen]
...another aspect that is not clear from this example
20:36:33 [Karen]
...because it's stored in this way
20:36:39 [Karen]
,,,someone else could create a widget
20:36:46 [Karen]
...and link to any place on the Web
20:36:50 [Karen] this is a way to pivot
20:36:57 [Karen]
...about info about bill before it was law
20:37:05 [Karen]
...and another person talking about it as it appears in the US code
20:37:11 [Karen] this could allow for interoperability
20:37:25 [Karen]
Chris: so you are really talking about facilitating data discovering and integration
20:37:37 [Karen]
....when data gets transferred, there is a reasonability piece
20:37:46 [Karen]
...various operations at the end point before it gets to Thomas
20:37:54 [Karen]
...but also want to see that ladder type of interoperability
20:38:01 [Karen] business process is also a key challenge
20:38:12 [Karen] do we support executives in the agencies to move in that direction?
20:38:20 [Karen]
Daniel: interoperability supports this
20:38:26 [Karen]
...when you hop to value-add folks
20:38:33 [Karen] newspaper articles, for example
20:38:37 [Karen]
...this provides interoperabilty
20:38:43 [Karen] take the designations
20:38:47 [Karen]
...and atomize
20:38:59 [Karen] are talking about an important but separate process of interoperability
20:39:03 [Karen] need them both, yes
20:39:20 [Karen]
Joe: Chris, I think that these tables and what gov't has done
20:39:33 [Karen]
...these paper tables have been used to interoperate data in books
20:39:41 [Karen]
...and we go back and forth between these two tables
20:39:54 [Karen] the question for gov't is to understand the new medium
20:40:00 [Karen]
...called the Internet
20:40:07 [Karen]
...we know this data is other guy's data
20:40:15 [Karen]
...we have only put it up for human readability
20:40:22 [Karen]
...that's the bottom line on the interoperability issue
20:40:24 [Karen]
...Another issue
20:40:31 [Karen]
...look at XML version of spread sheets
20:40:45 [Karen]
...wonder why you chose that; store pure XSL formats on Internet
20:40:52 [Karen]
...your idea of using Excel is an excellent one
20:40:57 [Karen]
Kevin: He left for day
20:41:13 [Karen]
Diane: I have been living in Excel spreadsheet "hell" for many years
20:41:27 [Karen]
...the new formats available and new Web 2.0 formats will help break that grip
20:41:35 [Karen]
...there are tools to do this
20:41:45 [Karen]
...embed and transform data in and out of Excel
20:41:55 [Karen]
...the Excel spreadsheet use throughout the gov't is a barrier
20:42:04 [Karen]
...trying to move them into new formats is a difficult task
20:42:14 [Karen]
...what John has done, to extract metadata and reuse that
20:42:29 [Karen]
...this is where we will see that shift from rows and columns to hyper cubes and rich visualizations
20:42:43 [Karen] we see these apps develop, we may break the Excel stranglehold
20:42:53 [Karen]
Joe: we have not done enough of that
20:42:59 [Karen]
...they are so busy
20:43:15 [Karen]
...if they could just convert the data to something that is interoperable across agencies, they would do it
20:43:22 [Karen]
...we are loading them down with many ways to do this
20:43:30 [Karen]
...I would hope W3C IG would say, do it this way
20:43:41 [Karen]
...a lot of Excel data out there; we should try to make it interoperable
20:43:55 [Karen]
Daniel: Microsoft's new version is XML
20:44:06 [Karen]
Joe: these Excel files can be saved as XML
20:44:13 [Karen]
...nothing is perfect
20:44:19 [Karen]
Diane: it's all about how you publish it
20:44:24 [Karen]
...we can work with software vendors
20:44:33 [Karen] publish to XML or enhanced
20:44:48 [Karen]
...get the data out and make it accessable; round trip it and make it useful
20:44:53 [Karen]
...right now it's in lock down mode
20:44:57 [Karen]
Daniel: smart tags
20:45:12 [Karen]
...MS made a huge mistake trying to do it themselves, but the idea was ahead of its time
20:45:17 [Karen]
...they didn't look at other standards
20:45:37 [Karen]
...and they had put it into XHTML smart tags as a name space
20:45:46 [Karen]
...and IE could act on it, much like the widgets you talked about
20:45:53 [Karen]
...there was such an uproar that they took it out
20:46:00 [Karen]
...we sometimes fight the same battles over and over
20:46:05 [Karen]
...some people are ahead of the game
20:46:21 [Karen]
Ed: Technorati started microformats, a guy who worked on IE
20:46:39 [Karen]
Diane: So we're at end of day, where do go from here?
20:46:50 [Karen]
...we are in violent agreement about some of the issues around interoperability
20:47:01 [Karen]
...get the data out there to do comparisons across entities
20:47:06 [Karen] the joins that Joe has shown us
20:47:13 [Karen]
...use existing ontologies in the gov't to do that
20:47:20 [Karen] do we percolate this information
20:47:27 [Karen]
...and make this something that the W3C pushes forward
20:47:31 [Karen]
...that may be a next step
20:47:45 [Karen]
JohnS: conversation I was having offline
20:47:55 [Karen]
...thinking about we can do as a group to promote some of these things
20:47:59 [Karen]
...there are design camps
20:48:06 [Karen]
...if you are in these similar situations
20:48:10 [Karen]
...from a gov't perspective
20:48:20 [Karen] if you have a beefy Excel spread sheet to serve up
20:48:28 [Karen]
...or you have XHTML tables to serve up as data
20:48:33 [Karen]
...that we can start to work with
20:48:48 [Karen]
...if you are this place, then we will find someone who has attacked this problem
20:48:56 [Karen]
...we probably have three or four of those identified
20:49:06 [Karen]
...if they are resonating from UK and US perspective
20:49:15 [Karen]
...I'll take it as indemic
20:49:19 [Karen] patterns
20:49:33 [Karen]
...possible use cases; a useful activity to explore as a W3C group
20:49:42 [Karen]
Diane: one more comment on those Excel spreadsheets
20:49:46 [Karen]
...from audit perspective
20:49:50 [Karen]
...I come from that domain
20:49:54 [josema]
joe: agree with john
20:50:04 [Karen]
...what we want to do is to get to the granular detail in those spread sheets
20:50:10 [Karen]
...imagine in
20:50:15 [Karen] that goes out to recipient
20:50:19 [Karen]
...and how they spent the money
20:50:28 [Karen]
...having aggregated spread sheets is great first step
20:50:38 [Karen]
...but also to build use cases for the depth of the data
20:50:42 [Karen] we have auditability
20:50:48 [Karen]
...we need the granular data as well
20:50:53 [Karen]
...that's where the sunlight doesn't shine
20:51:08 [Karen]
Daniel: someone whispered that there were some amazing schemas for UK legislation
20:51:22 [Karen]
...they actually have a lot more than what shows up in the ontologies
20:51:27 [Karen]
...I am looking at the actual words used
20:51:42 [Karen] would not be that difficult to use these schemas to validate what shows up in the Gazette
20:51:47 [Karen]
...I'm just pointing it out
20:51:54 [Karen]
JohnS: I am responsible for these as well
20:52:25 [Karen]
Daniel: you were hiding them!
20:52:33 [Karen] have an amazing tool in these schemas
20:52:42 [Karen]
...I have a feeling that people are moving from tabular to triples
20:52:48 [Karen]
...that misses out on a rich world
20:52:54 [Karen]
...not sure it's a bypass that provides more tools
20:53:02 [Karen]
...perhaps world is a hybrid
20:53:06 [Karen]
...and what gets left behind
20:53:21 [Karen]
...use objects and schemas and RDF ontologies to do triple stuff
20:53:34 [Karen]
...what Joe is showing gets to a type of interoperability that does not happen through ontologies
20:53:42 [Karen]
...things like title, section, does not have meaning
20:53:49 [Karen]
...two pieces come together as a way to find something
20:54:01 [Karen]
...a missing piece is the URLs which provide a lot of interoperability
20:54:09 [Karen]
...those two pieces of data for US code and public laaw
20:54:19 [Karen]
...allow you to create URLs, which are important for interoperability
20:54:27 [Karen]
...some people automatically do smart things
20:54:35 [Karen] UK Gazette, the URLs are well designed
20:54:44 [Karen]
...but no one is talking about why that's important
20:55:03 [Karen]
...everyone understands you are supposed to have good URLs, but don't understand why it's important to interoperability
20:55:09 [Karen]
...I can show you something
20:55:21 [Karen]
Ed: Have you seen TBL's cool URI's doc?
20:55:26 [Karen]
Diane: can you post it?
20:55:45 [Karen]
Daniel: it's a short, sweet explanation of why URIs should be human readable
20:55:50 [josema]
20:55:53 [Karen]
...but he is missing out on the interoperability aspect
20:56:07 [josema]
that was the pointer to the Cool URIs document
20:56:14 [Karen]
Ed: there is a companion doc called cool URIs for the Semantic Web
20:56:21 [Karen]
...using URIs to address large data spaces
20:56:29 [Karen]
...It's important not to argue about data formats
20:56:43 [Karen]
...but not be too dismissive of what it can and cannot do
20:56:51 [joec]
* Karen has done a great job as scribe
20:56:54 [Karen]
...a good outcome would be a bnch of patterns
20:57:00 [Karen]
...and provide people with patterns to follow
20:57:04 [Karen]
...there are so many choices
20:57:10 [josema]
-> Cool URIs for the Semantic Web
20:57:19 [Karen]
...I think for a group at W3C to say these are reasonble things to do and provide guidance
20:57:31 [Karen] get through the big landscape, that would be a major accomplishment
20:57:34 [josema]
outstanding I would say :)
20:57:50 [Karen]
JohnS: The semantics is useful topic
20:57:57 [Karen] UK, break down components
20:58:07 [Karen]
amendable, non-amendable, and legislation ?
20:58:12 [Karen]
...title number or chapter number
20:58:21 [Karen] a non-amendable descriptive component
20:58:27 [Karen]
...most of parts you cannot change from another act
20:58:32 [Karen]
...cannot change one act from another
20:58:34 [josema]
20:58:38 [Karen]
...that's an important thing to know
20:58:46 [Karen]
...most things can be changed apart from its number
20:58:50 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:58:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
20:58:53 [Karen]
...even if there is no meaning associated with them
20:59:01 [Karen]
...a natural pull to express using semantics
20:59:07 [Karen]
...I also take on board
20:59:11 [Karen] we have done in UK
20:59:20 [Karen]
...we need to use all of the strategies we talk about in one situation or another
20:59:23 [josema]
chair: kevin, john
20:59:27 [Karen] say one right way to do this is not going to work
20:59:36 [Karen] terms of making progress in context of eGov
20:59:41 [Karen]
...a bunch of good stuff to do
20:59:50 [Karen]
...advanced, basic; depends upon where you are at
21:00:00 [Karen]
...better to start doing some good stuff now, and not do everything prefectly
21:00:04 [Karen]
...some design patterns
21:00:11 [Karen]
...some ideas this month you can do on your existing budget
21:00:24 [Karen] opposed to perfection in three years on a budget you will never have
21:00:28 [Karen]
...that's what we can be doing
21:00:32 [Karen]
Daniel: yes, sort of true
21:00:46 [Karen]
... I would add that what has not happened is thinking about future perfect
21:00:53 [Karen] can think of a few things
21:01:02 [Karen]
...structured data is better than unstructured
21:01:09 [Karen]
...more places you can invest information
21:01:14 [Karen]
...way to do that is not end of road
21:01:20 [Karen]
...but not force tumult of past
21:01:27 [Karen] converting one form of data to another
21:01:31 [Karen]
...what's built into some data
21:01:34 [Karen]
...not the end of the raod
21:01:36 [Karen]
21:01:43 [Karen]
...but anticipate that things may change
21:01:53 [Karen]
...good annotation, good specificity, truthful about information
21:01:58 [Karen]
...will make things easier to do
21:02:03 [Karen]
[John shakes his head]
21:02:17 [Karen]
Kevin: have we beaten this to death?
21:02:22 [Karen]
Jose: point of ordre
21:02:36 [Karen]
21:02:42 [Karen]
Jose: let me review
21:03:04 [Karen]
we have not touched on all the specific issues, but on the generic issues
21:03:12 [Karen]
...or we can post-pone for tomorrow
21:03:29 [Karen]
Joe: I am wondering if you have in mind what those categories are
21:03:38 [josema]
21:03:44 [Karen]
...from where you are starting, like Excel or Access, or mainframe or SQL, or different scenarios
21:03:51 [Karen]
...have you thought about the categories?
21:03:59 [Karen]
JohnS: not really
21:04:07 [Karen]
...just discussing through course of today
21:04:14 [Karen]
...a few things to find structure and design patterns
21:04:23 [Karen]
...If you find yourself here, this is a good thing to do
21:04:30 [Karen]
...and spreadsheet to RDF is a good case in point
21:04:37 [Karen] codes with RDFa example
21:04:45 [Karen]
...there have been at least five examples today
21:04:52 [Karen]
Joe: I think that's great
21:05:01 [Karen]
Kevin: I think we should wrap for today
21:05:08 [Karen]
...and continue discussions over dinner
21:05:14 [Karen]
...and come back tomorrow refreshed and refocused
21:05:23 [Karen] about some solutions and approaches
21:05:29 [Karen]
...and we have some other agenda items tomorrow
21:05:39 [Karen]
...I'd like to sleep on that and revisit first thing in the morning
21:05:40 [Karen]
21:05:51 [Karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:05:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
21:06:02 [josema]
21:06:20 [Zakim]
21:06:30 [josema]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
21:07:28 [Zakim]
21:07:30 [Zakim]
21:07:39 [joec]
is there parking?
21:08:37 [josema]
joe, Kevin says that's $15 right here at AIA
21:08:38 [Rachel]
Rachel has joined #egov
21:08:49 [joec]
perfect... see you tomorrow
21:30:54 [josema]
rrsagent, bye
21:30:54 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items