IRC log of webapps on 2009-03-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:31:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:31:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc
18:31:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:31:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAPP
18:31:05 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:31:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:31:06 [trackbot]
Date: 11 March 2009
18:31:14 [shepazu]
zakim, this is dom3
18:31:14 [Zakim]
shepazu, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dom3".
18:31:15 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
18:31:27 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
18:31:40 [shepazu]
Zakim, his will be dom3
18:31:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'his will be dom3', shepazu
18:31:50 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be dom3
18:31:50 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start now
18:31:54 [shepazu]
sigh
18:32:01 [Zakim]
IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
18:32:03 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
18:32:50 [shepazu]
ISSUE-44?
18:32:50 [trackbot]
ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of events and the Window object? -- RAISED
18:32:50 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44
18:33:16 [smaug]
hmm, "passcode not valid"
18:33:30 [ArtB]
yeah, me too
18:33:35 [shepazu]
Zakim, code?
18:33:35 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
18:33:38 [ArtB]
agenda says "3661#"
18:33:40 [smaug]
haa
18:33:50 [Zakim]
+Art_Barstow
18:34:11 [ArtB]
ArtB has changed the topic to: DOM3Events call; March 11 @ 14:30 Boston; PIN = 3663#; Agenda = http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
18:34:49 [Zakim]
+??P6
18:34:57 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
18:34:57 [Zakim]
+smaug; got it
18:35:37 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
18:35:44 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
18:35:51 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
18:35:57 [ArtB]
Present: Art, Doug, Olli
18:38:01 [ArtB]
Regrets: Charles
18:39:03 [ArtB]
Topic: Agenda Review
18:39:11 [ArtB]
AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
18:39:37 [ArtB]
AB: do other people typically join this call?
18:39:50 [ArtB]
DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join
18:40:00 [ArtB]
... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting
18:40:52 [ArtB]
AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub plans
18:40:59 [ArtB]
... any change requests?
18:41:11 [ArtB]
[ None ]
18:41:18 [ArtB]
Topic: confirm last week's minutes
18:41:31 [ArtB]
AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes?
18:41:44 [ArtB]
... <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/att-0003/D3E-webapps-090303.html>
18:41:56 [ArtB]
[ No Objections ]
18:42:10 [ArtB]
Topic: Action item review - Due this week
18:42:28 [ArtB]
AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at:
18:42:36 [ArtB]
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
18:42:48 [ArtB]
... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state
18:42:57 [ArtB]
... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to Open?
18:43:22 [ArtB]
... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets)
18:43:44 [ArtB]
DS: raised means the issue is recorded
18:44:08 [ArtB]
... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on
18:44:25 [ArtB]
... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue
18:45:22 [ArtB]
... Pending Review means the issue is still open and pending the actions related to it are closed
18:45:42 [ArtB]
Topic: ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the Specification - schepers
18:45:54 [ArtB]
AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1
18:46:05 [ArtB]
DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker
18:46:11 [ArtB]
... I should close just close it
18:46:36 [ArtB]
... I will change the Due Date to the 18th
18:46:45 [ArtB]
... I haven't uploaded my changes yet
18:46:57 [ArtB]
AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old
18:47:04 [ArtB]
DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it
18:47:24 [ArtB]
... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18)
18:47:34 [ArtB]
Topic: ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers
18:47:44 [ArtB]
AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312
18:48:04 [ArtB]
DS: I have some wording in my draft
18:48:20 [ArtB]
... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week
18:48:48 [ArtB]
... I will define a default action for the load event
18:48:58 [ArtB]
OP: default action?
18:49:09 [ArtB]
DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior
18:49:34 [ArtB]
... and let the individual specs override how the load event works
18:49:44 [ArtB]
... i.e. how it is dispatched
18:49:50 [ArtB]
... and what its target is
18:50:03 [ArtB]
OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target
18:50:12 [ArtB]
DS: we may have to talk more about the Window
18:50:37 [ArtB]
... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window
18:51:08 [ArtB]
OP: Window is the parent node above the document
18:51:19 [ArtB]
DS: so bubble goes up to window?
18:51:21 [ArtB]
OP: yes
18:51:53 [ArtB]
... check the mail around ISSUE #44
18:52:24 [ArtB]
... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document
18:52:42 [ArtB]
DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior
18:52:53 [ArtB]
... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things
18:53:50 [smaug]
all the other events except load propagates from document to window
18:54:28 [shepazu]
Action: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's
18:54:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-18].
18:54:55 [ArtB]
DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG
18:55:19 [ArtB]
OP: we can talk about default view and not Window
18:55:29 [shepazu]
where window == defaultView
18:56:05 [ArtB]
Topic: ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers
18:56:13 [ArtB]
AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318
18:56:24 [ArtB]
DS: this is related to our previous discussion
18:56:55 [ArtB]
AB: so what do we do with this then?
18:56:59 [ArtB]
DS: leave it open
18:57:26 [ArtB]
Topic: ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation - Olli
18:57:31 [smaug]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
18:57:32 [ArtB]
AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319
18:57:43 [ArtB]
OP: I sent some emails to the list today
18:57:52 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
18:58:29 [ArtB]
OP: no one supports everything
18:59:12 [ArtB]
... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines
18:59:27 [ArtB]
... I've been talking to the A11Y people
18:59:53 [ArtB]
s/A11Y people/ARIA people/
19:00:42 [smaug]
"chaals>roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a performance hit, they do something that seems useful"
19:01:10 [ArtB]
AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments?
19:01:33 [ArtB]
DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2
19:01:49 [ArtB]
... i.e. keep them as they exist
19:02:04 [ArtB]
... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others
19:02:13 [ArtB]
... could define new model
19:02:53 [ArtB]
... would like to have a more performant model
19:03:12 [ArtB]
... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing definition
19:03:28 [ArtB]
... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the browsers
19:04:10 [ArtB]
OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer
19:04:33 [ArtB]
AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal?
19:05:08 [smaug]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0146.html
19:05:25 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0174.html
19:06:23 [ArtB]
AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these three browsers?
19:06:28 [ArtB]
OP: yes, that's the case
19:06:48 [ArtB]
... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree
19:07:22 [ArtB]
DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in accessibility use cases
19:07:42 [ArtB]
... because there may not be an indication it is occuring
19:07:59 [ArtB]
... may need a dedicated ARIA event
19:08:39 [ArtB]
OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for example it was doing some location stuff
19:08:51 [smaug]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html
19:10:17 [smaug]
OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use a11y stuff
19:11:18 [ArtB]
OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause slowdowns
19:12:00 [ArtB]
AB: I think Olli completed this action right?
19:12:05 [ArtB]
OP: yes I've already closed
19:12:26 [ArtB]
Topic: ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals
19:12:35 [ArtB]
AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
19:12:41 [ArtB]
AB: should we skip this today?
19:12:53 [ArtB]
Topic: ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)
19:13:10 [ArtB]
AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where events are fired...
19:13:17 [ArtB]
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4
19:13:39 [ArtB]
DS: we've already talked about this
19:14:03 [ArtB]
AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK?
19:14:05 [ArtB]
DS: yes
19:14:19 [ArtB]
AB: anything else on Issue #44?
19:14:27 [ArtB]
[ No ]
19:14:33 [ArtB]
Topic: ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)
19:14:57 [ArtB]
AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events?
19:15:02 [ArtB]
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
19:15:20 [ArtB]
AB: any discussion on this issue?
19:15:37 [ArtB]
DS: there are no related actions
19:15:46 [ArtB]
... Olli, what are your thoughts?
19:15:55 [ArtB]
OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera
19:16:16 [ArtB]
... I think Jonas wants to change it
19:16:21 [ArtB]
... anyone else?
19:16:25 [ArtB]
DS: I think Maciej
19:16:45 [ArtB]
OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors
19:17:08 [ArtB]
DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too
19:17:19 [ArtB]
OP: not clear when the events should be fired
19:18:17 [ArtB]
AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should defer discussion until next week
19:18:20 [ArtB]
DS: agree
19:18:34 [ArtB]
Topic: Publication schedule
19:19:47 [ArtB]
OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ...
19:19:55 [ArtB]
... the grey/gray block text
19:20:05 [ArtB]
... why was that added?
19:20:35 [ArtB]
... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents
19:20:48 [ArtB]
DS: this was added for performance reasons
19:21:18 [ArtB]
... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not in the document
19:21:36 [ArtB]
... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the document
19:21:51 [ArtB]
OP: I don't understand why
19:22:17 [ArtB]
s/Topic: Publication schedule//
19:24:50 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:24:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
19:25:07 [shepazu]
I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do)
19:26:07 [ArtB]
AB: any comments on Doug's proposal?
19:26:26 [ArtB]
OP: browsers do that for mutuation events
19:26:50 [ArtB]
... other events don't slow things down as much
19:27:05 [ArtB]
Topic: Publication schedule
19:27:16 [ArtB]
AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's draft on 2009-03-18?
19:27:38 [ArtB]
DS: yes, that is still the plan
19:27:48 [ArtB]
... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then
19:27:57 [ArtB]
... This is Action #321 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321
19:28:05 [ArtB]
AB: keep it open?
19:28:06 [ArtB]
DS: yes
19:28:31 [ArtB]
AB: so that would be another WD, right?
19:28:35 [ArtB]
DS: yes
19:28:51 [ArtB]
AB: any discussion on the LCWD?
19:29:03 [ArtB]
DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time
19:29:31 [ArtB]
OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many other specs
19:29:46 [ArtB]
Topic: Other overdue action items?
19:29:55 [ArtB]
AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
19:31:03 [ArtB]
AB: what is Carmelo's role?
19:31:11 [ArtB]
DS: helping with the test development
19:31:30 [ArtB]
Topic: AOB
19:31:34 [ArtB]
AB: anything?
19:31:38 [ArtB]
DS: none
19:31:41 [ArtB]
OP: none
19:31:56 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
19:32:25 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
19:32:25 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Shepazu, Art_Barstow, smaug
19:32:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webapps
19:32:38 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:32:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
19:34:19 [ArtB]
Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference
19:34:43 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:34:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
19:39:57 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
19:39:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-actions.rdf :
19:39:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [1]
19:39:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc#T18-54-28