18:31:01 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 18:31:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc 18:31:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:31:05 Zakim, this will be WAPP 18:31:05 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 18:31:06 Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 18:31:06 Date: 11 March 2009 18:31:14 zakim, this is dom3 18:31:14 shepazu, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dom3". 18:31:15 RRSAgent, make log public 18:31:27 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html 18:31:40 Zakim, his will be dom3 18:31:40 I don't understand 'his will be dom3', shepazu 18:31:50 Zakim, this will be dom3 18:31:50 ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start now 18:31:54 sigh 18:32:01 IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started 18:32:03 +Shepazu 18:32:50 ISSUE-44? 18:32:50 ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of events and the Window object? -- RAISED 18:32:50 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44 18:33:16 hmm, "passcode not valid" 18:33:30 yeah, me too 18:33:35 Zakim, code? 18:33:35 the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu 18:33:38 agenda says "3661#" 18:33:40 haa 18:33:50 +Art_Barstow 18:34:11 ArtB has changed the topic to: DOM3Events call; March 11 @ 14:30 Boston; PIN = 3663#; Agenda = http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html 18:34:49 +??P6 18:34:57 Zakim, ??P6 is me 18:34:57 +smaug; got it 18:35:37 Chair: Art 18:35:44 Scribe: Art 18:35:51 ScribeNick: ArtB 18:35:57 Present: Art, Doug, Olli 18:38:01 Regrets: Charles 18:39:03 Topic: Agenda Review 18:39:11 AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html 18:39:37 AB: do other people typically join this call? 18:39:50 DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join 18:40:00 ... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting 18:40:52 AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub plans 18:40:59 ... any change requests? 18:41:11 [ None ] 18:41:18 Topic: confirm last week's minutes 18:41:31 AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes? 18:41:44 ... 18:41:56 [ No Objections ] 18:42:10 Topic: Action item review - Due this week 18:42:28 AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at: 18:42:36 ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2 18:42:48 ... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state 18:42:57 ... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to Open? 18:43:22 ... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets) 18:43:44 DS: raised means the issue is recorded 18:44:08 ... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on 18:44:25 ... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue 18:45:22 ... Pending Review means the issue is still open and pending the actions related to it are closed 18:45:42 Topic: ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the Specification - schepers 18:45:54 AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1 18:46:05 DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker 18:46:11 ... I should close just close it 18:46:36 ... I will change the Due Date to the 18th 18:46:45 ... I haven't uploaded my changes yet 18:46:57 AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old 18:47:04 DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it 18:47:24 ... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18) 18:47:34 Topic: ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers 18:47:44 AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312 18:48:04 DS: I have some wording in my draft 18:48:20 ... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week 18:48:48 ... I will define a default action for the load event 18:48:58 OP: default action? 18:49:09 DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior 18:49:34 ... and let the individual specs override how the load event works 18:49:44 ... i.e. how it is dispatched 18:49:50 ... and what its target is 18:50:03 OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target 18:50:12 DS: we may have to talk more about the Window 18:50:37 ... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window 18:51:08 OP: Window is the parent node above the document 18:51:19 DS: so bubble goes up to window? 18:51:21 OP: yes 18:51:53 ... check the mail around ISSUE #44 18:52:24 ... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document 18:52:42 DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior 18:52:53 ... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things 18:53:50 all the other events except load propagates from document to window 18:54:28 Action: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's 18:54:28 Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-18]. 18:54:55 DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG 18:55:19 OP: we can talk about default view and not Window 18:55:29 where window == defaultView 18:56:05 Topic: ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers 18:56:13 AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318 18:56:24 DS: this is related to our previous discussion 18:56:55 AB: so what do we do with this then? 18:56:59 DS: leave it open 18:57:26 Topic: ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation - Olli 18:57:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html 18:57:32 AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319 18:57:43 OP: I sent some emails to the list today 18:57:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html 18:58:29 OP: no one supports everything 18:59:12 ... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines 18:59:27 ... I've been talking to the A11Y people 18:59:53 s/A11Y people/ARIA people/ 19:00:42 "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a performance hit, they do something that seems useful" 19:01:10 AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments? 19:01:33 DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2 19:01:49 ... i.e. keep them as they exist 19:02:04 ... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others 19:02:13 ... could define new model 19:02:53 ... would like to have a more performant model 19:03:12 ... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing definition 19:03:28 ... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the browsers 19:04:10 OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer 19:04:33 AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal? 19:05:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0146.html 19:05:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0174.html 19:06:23 AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these three browsers? 19:06:28 OP: yes, that's the case 19:06:48 ... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree 19:07:22 DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in accessibility use cases 19:07:42 ... because there may not be an indication it is occuring 19:07:59 ... may need a dedicated ARIA event 19:08:39 OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for example it was doing some location stuff 19:08:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html 19:10:17 OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use a11y stuff 19:11:18 OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause slowdowns 19:12:00 AB: I think Olli completed this action right? 19:12:05 OP: yes I've already closed 19:12:26 Topic: ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals 19:12:35 AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320 19:12:41 AB: should we skip this today? 19:12:53 Topic: ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above) 19:13:10 AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where events are fired... 19:13:17 ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4 19:13:39 DS: we've already talked about this 19:14:03 AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK? 19:14:05 DS: yes 19:14:19 AB: anything else on Issue #44? 19:14:27 [ No ] 19:14:33 Topic: ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above) 19:14:57 AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events? 19:15:02 ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39 19:15:20 AB: any discussion on this issue? 19:15:37 DS: there are no related actions 19:15:46 ... Olli, what are your thoughts? 19:15:55 OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera 19:16:16 ... I think Jonas wants to change it 19:16:21 ... anyone else? 19:16:25 DS: I think Maciej 19:16:45 OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors 19:17:08 DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too 19:17:19 OP: not clear when the events should be fired 19:18:17 AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should defer discussion until next week 19:18:20 DS: agree 19:18:34 Topic: Publication schedule 19:19:47 OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ... 19:19:55 ... the grey/gray block text 19:20:05 ... why was that added? 19:20:35 ... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents 19:20:48 DS: this was added for performance reasons 19:21:18 ... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not in the document 19:21:36 ... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the document 19:21:51 OP: I don't understand why 19:22:17 s/Topic: Publication schedule// 19:24:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:24:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 19:25:07 I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do) 19:26:07 AB: any comments on Doug's proposal? 19:26:26 OP: browsers do that for mutuation events 19:26:50 ... other events don't slow things down as much 19:27:05 Topic: Publication schedule 19:27:16 AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's draft on 2009-03-18? 19:27:38 DS: yes, that is still the plan 19:27:48 ... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then 19:27:57 ... This is Action #321 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321 19:28:05 AB: keep it open? 19:28:06 DS: yes 19:28:31 AB: so that would be another WD, right? 19:28:35 DS: yes 19:28:51 AB: any discussion on the LCWD? 19:29:03 DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time 19:29:31 OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many other specs 19:29:46 Topic: Other overdue action items? 19:29:55 AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2 19:31:03 AB: what is Carmelo's role? 19:31:11 DS: helping with the test development 19:31:30 Topic: AOB 19:31:34 AB: anything? 19:31:38 DS: none 19:31:41 OP: none 19:31:56 AB: meeting adjourned 19:32:25 zakim, bye 19:32:25 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Shepazu, Art_Barstow, smaug 19:32:25 Zakim has left #webapps 19:32:38 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:32:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 19:34:19 Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference 19:34:43 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:34:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 19:39:57 RRSAgent, bye 19:39:57 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-actions.rdf : 19:39:57 ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [1] 19:39:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc#T18-54-28