12:39:50 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
12:39:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-irc
12:39:55 zakim, help
12:39:55 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
12:39:57 Some of the commands I know are:
12:39:58 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
12:40:00 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
12:40:02 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
12:40:05 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
12:40:07 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
12:40:10 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
12:40:13 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
12:40:16 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
12:40:19 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
12:40:21 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
12:40:23 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
12:40:26 list conferences - reports the active conferences
12:40:27 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
12:40:28 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
12:40:29 I last learned something new on $Date: 2009/03/10 16:59:31 $
12:42:23 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
12:42:32 can do
12:42:55 :-)
12:43:45 User Interface Rule #1: never anthropomorphize your software
12:44:13 hwo many do we think are attending?
12:44:32 markus, shane, steven, gregory, roland
12:44:43 those that are here - will be here
12:44:52 didn't catch any regrets
12:45:00 tina, mark
12:45:22 ah, i had hoped mark could be here, especially on the topic of forms in XHTML2
12:45:41 alessio
12:45:43 markus is grabbing a bite to eat and a cup of coffee
12:45:54 So that's 8 possibles
12:46:10 how many is the zakim reservation for?
12:46:23 Gregory, watch this
12:46:59 zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
12:47:00 User Interface Rule #2: if you do antrhomorphize your software, don't be surprised when it de-humanizes you
12:47:02 sorry, Steven; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again
12:47:18 woh
12:47:26 04 01zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
12:47:40 zakim was REALLY flakey yesterday
12:47:46 even for Zakim
12:47:47 zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
12:47:50 ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) at 13:00Z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
12:48:18 Note code is CONF2
12:48:34 i can't tell the difference between the last rejected command, and the one zakim acknowledged ;-)
12:49:27 nor can I, nor can I
12:49:34 ROTFL
12:49:41 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda
12:52:49 zakim, how many ports are reserved at 13:00?
12:52:49 on Tue Mar 10 13:00:00 2009 I see 58 reserved [34 available], 58 ports 30 minutes later [34 available], and 21 ports 60 minutes later [71 available]
12:53:28 zakim, how many ports are reserved at 15:00?
12:53:28 on Tue Mar 10 15:00:00 2009 I see 36 reserved [56 available], 31 ports 30 minutes later [61 available], and 6 ports 60 minutes later [86 available]
12:53:45 zakim, how many ports are reserved at 17:00?
12:53:45 on Tue Mar 10 17:00:00 2009 I see 0 reserved [92 available], 0 ports 30 minutes later [92 available], and 0 ports 60 minutes later [92 available]
12:53:59 Doesn't look overbooked to me....
12:54:05 low tech crap
12:54:08 LOL
12:54:22 I *really* must get that button made for you Shane
12:55:39 zakim may be showing the first glimmerings of AI - my older brother is an AI researcher whom i've always told "you'll know when you have a thinking machine when you command it to do something and it replies with a string of 4 letter words telling to programmer to "do it himself"
12:55:59 Roland has joined #xhtml
12:58:47 another 2 mins
12:58:57 again - low tech crap
12:59:03 booked at the hour
12:59:40 shane jetlagged???
12:59:50 This can't be the real Shane
12:59:53 An imposter!
13:00:04 zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:05 ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:06 Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started
13:00:06 this is what happens when i dont travel for ages.
13:00:08 +Steven
13:00:59 rrsagent, make log public
13:01:10 +??P12
13:01:13 Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF
13:01:22 Chair: Roland
13:01:32 rrsagent, make minutes
13:01:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:02:03 +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:03:39 code CONF2 Roalnd
13:03:44 Roland
13:04:32 +Roland_Merrick
13:04:46 + +04670602aaaa
13:04:57 Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
13:04:57 +Roland; got it
13:05:12 Zakim, +04670602aaaa is Markus
13:05:12 +Markus; got it
13:05:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0072.html
13:05:30 http://xml.gov
13:05:54 http://xml.house.gov
13:06:58 zakim, who is here?
13:06:58 On the phone I see Steven, ??P12, Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Markus
13:06:59 On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Markus, trackbot
13:07:17 http://xml.gov/cop.asp
13:07:25 http://xml.gov/standards.asp
13:07:45 http://xml.gov/efforts.asp
13:08:19 http://xml.house.gov.
13:10:00 http://www.section508.gov
13:10:31 Scribe: Steven
13:10:37 Topic: Start
13:10:53 Steven: Great news about Vivek as CIO
13:11:01 GJR: amen
13:11:07 [discussion of Gov websites, XML, and use of]
13:11:48 second: Modules, Modularization, and the XHTML Family
13:12:23 Topic: which version of XForms, 1.1? What about XML Events mismatch?
13:12:23 XHTML2+XForms attribute clashes
13:12:25 zakim, allow speakers 30|00
13:12:25 I don't understand 'allow speakers 30|00', oedipus
13:12:32 zakim, allow queue 30|00
13:12:32 I don't understand 'allow queue 30|00', oedipus
13:12:50 http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
13:13:12 zakim, allow 30 minutes
13:13:12 ok, Steven
13:14:01 SP: have to say 1.1 because fixes so many things in XForms 1.0
13:14:07 SP: 1.1 in CR at moment
13:14:57 SP: we need to get the test suite through to implementations; EMC turned up with a test report on use of XForms; Chiva and Orbion are fighting to be number 2; ubiquity is coming on strong
13:15:11 SP: looking good for 2 test suites for XForms 1.1 completion
13:15:15 Roland: s/Chiva/Chiba/
13:15:26 s/Orbion/Orbeon/
13:15:30 SP: confident 1.1 will be out of last call by time XHTML2 goes to LC
13:15:37 RM: what about XML Events 2?
13:16:01 SP: xml events 2 taken things over from XForms 1.1 - borrowed good ideas - should be in events really
13:16:19 SP: not sure too much of a clash between 1.1 and 1.2
13:16:30 SP: xml events overlap is small
13:16:36 RM: something we should understand
13:17:07 ACTION: Steven - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1
13:17:07 Created ACTION-53 - - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-03-17].
13:17:47 SM: Events 2 now modularized; handler module can flip directly with the builtin handlers in XForms 1.1
13:17:57 SP: doesn't handler module add action
13:18:16 SM: improved it (in air quotes) - don't think consistent or backwards compatible
13:18:22 SP: improvements
13:18:35 SM: MarkB's wish list; actions can use script
13:18:46 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2
13:19:03 SM: third module - SCRIPT (XML Scripting Module)
13:19:15 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081223
13:19:21 SP: will investigate
13:19:36 SP: changes in Events 2 - conditional actions taken straight from XForms 1.1
13:19:50 SP: some changes in XML Events 2 that are part of XForms 1.0
13:20:00 SM: targetid in 1.1
13:20:18 ack shane
13:20:20 GJR: only reason for 1.2 was attempt to harmonize forms between XHTML2 and HTML5
13:20:38 SM: conflicts between XForms 1.1
13:20:41 MG: submission
13:20:50 SM: submission element
13:20:56 SP: received email on that
13:21:06 MC: paste list into chat (or URI)
13:21:11 rrsagent, make minutes
13:21:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:21:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0050.html
13:21:28 i/SP: have to say/ScribeNick: oedipus
13:21:33 rrsagent, make minutes
13:21:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:21:43 SP: coding less of problem; target is a pain
13:22:00 SM: not convinced target is a pain - take them one at a time
13:22:11 s/coding/encoding/
13:22:18 GJR: target ok if strictly defined - otherwise people will use javascript hacks
13:23:24 MG: fear that have universal problem -- XForms is the first external grammar trying to incorporate; Common Attribute Collection growing exponentially; i would like to think about our Common Attribute Collection
13:23:44 MG: MathML and SVG invoked externally - today garuntee collisions; investigate generic solution
13:23:58 SM: in those cases, those grammars not in XHTML2 namespace, so doesn't matter
13:24:15 SM: if role in global attributes, do it using namespace modifiers/prefixes
13:24:41 SP: agreed at some point to make special exceptions with XForms; XHTML2 began with understanding that XForms an integral part of XHTML2
13:24:51 SP: offered to import into XHTML2 namespace
13:25:07 SP: rules for porting XHTML2 onto other elements is that MUST be prefixed
13:25:21 MG: that should be a SHOULD, not a MUSTG
13:25:26 s/MUSTG/MUST
13:25:53 SP: if import XHTML2 href should namespace qualify with xh2:
13:26:22 MG: RelaxNG point of view - if define attributes, doesn't inherit namespace of parent element -- only belongs to namespace if prefixed
13:27:11 SP: attributes are not in a namespace unless namespace qualified; don't have to look into namespace to find attribute, but can also add namespace attributes to elements
13:27:23 SM: not sure understand MG's question
13:27:56 MG: 2 things: first, if there is quirkiness in way make schemas so can be qualified and unqualified depending on context
13:29:06 MG: second: how XForms editing will appear for users; if swallow all of XForms element set with our common attributes, may be recipie for confusion by authors; strikes me as strange to have @target on every XForms element in XML namespace
13:29:29 RM: take Common and break into smaller chunks so people can take what is most appropriate for their attribute collection needs
13:29:48 MG: looking forward at incorporation of future modules; common collection very large
13:30:02 SM: done what RM suggested - attribute collections and common
13:30:17 SP: common doesn't start big, but grows in accordance with elements used
13:30:32 SP: thought every element had "common" on it
13:30:39 SM: not all have common and not all need it
13:31:03 MG: from XHTML2 PoV that is right, XHTML M12n different?
13:31:04 SM: no
13:31:22 RM: need to make this point crystal clear so as to avoid misunderstanding
13:31:47 SM: open to defining which of XHTML2 attribute collections are added to the common collection
13:32:14 MG: [reads from spec] -- no requirement on common; you are correct shane
13:32:22 SM: same thing M12n 1.0 says
13:32:58 MG: either change XHTML2 to export reduced number of attribute collections; or try to disambiguate all collections one-by-one
13:33:09 MG: user point of view, would counsel first suggestion
13:33:19 SM: what does "introduce a reduced set" mean?
13:33:28 s/SM: what/SP: what
13:33:50 SP: RDFa - by importing RDFa adds to common because every element can have @property or @about
13:34:10 SP: not using common as a catch-all -- predicated on what other tech one is integrating
13:34:25 SP: many modules add attributes that have general effect
13:34:54 SP: regretable that if introduce @href, it bring @target with it -- problem @target used in XML Events and XForms
13:35:12 SP: solution not to reduce attribute sets -- doesn't solve problem - just makes certain things impossible
13:35:15 q+
13:35:26 RM: need alternatives, then
13:35:27 q?
13:35:33 ack sh
13:36:21 SM: 2 points: 1) @target comes along with @href (could split them); 2) disagree with premise that by including whatever modules one is using, one is including every other module in attributes
13:36:38 SP: bit of risk: 1 place have @target and another @target that does something different
13:36:43 SM: not disagreeing with that
13:37:08 SP: one @target for XML Events and @target on submission from XForms
13:37:19 SM: removed @target from XML Events 2
13:37:45 SM: @target a very minor issue; would have same name, but in VERY different contexts; don't see as source of confusion
13:37:50 GJR: let commentors decide
13:38:17 SM: @resource is bigger problem; RDFa attributes need to be available for XForms elements; how do we deal with that? no proposal
13:38:58 SP: @resource in XForms i opposed; just a renaming of the @src attribute, which is still there; created child of sumbission, resource, and wanted both to have same name;
13:39:05 SM: proposal?
13:39:27 SP: is possible to drop @resource in XForms and still retain functionality;
13:39:33 SM: can XForms handle that?
13:40:10 SP: no content in world except for test suites that uses @resource -- everyone uses @src -- @resource added because "looked better" -- wanted to retain @src
13:40:32 q+
13:40:35 SP: can ask XForms to drop @resource and reinstate @src
13:40:54 ack Markus
13:41:22 MG: other way is go route of namespace-qualified attributes; would be good if have solution that will work universally; using namespace qualified in XHTML would garuntee that would work forever
13:41:56 SM: that's what we tell language designers to do -- use MathML or SVG with our attributes, and when do so MUST do so with namespace qualifiers
13:42:04 SM: the SHOULD should be a MUST
13:42:22 MG: from use perspective won't be great for authors, but satisfies engineering reqs
13:42:41 RM: for those creating dialects, avoid clashes so not to have to create new namespace
13:42:56 RM: namespaces not popular; WGs going out of the way to avoid them
13:43:06 SM: appreciate MG's proposal
13:43:33 SM: not sure we can achieve this politically; don't like rolling stuff into namespace
13:43:44 SM: XForms will be part of XHTML5 namespace
13:44:15 SM: wrap up - @target discussed - my position is don't include @target in common or @href in Submission
13:44:29 SM: hypertext attribute collection is not relevant and should not include @target
13:44:56 SM: as SP pointed out, coding not an issue; in XForms call "string" in our document make data-type more explicit
13:45:28 MG: i agree, but a schema processor wouldn't
13:46:00 MG: ask XForms group to specify data-type in the case of encoding more specifically
13:46:04 SM: like that idea
13:46:06 GJR: plus 1
13:46:14 SP: sounds good - checking XForms 1.1
13:46:31 MG: on SUBMISSION element
13:47:04 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#structure-model-submission
13:47:20 "This element represents declarative instructions on what to submit, and how. Details of submit processing are described at 11 Submit."
13:47:37 "Common Attributes: Common"
13:47:45 encoding
13:47:45 Optional attribute specifying an encoding for serialization. The default is "UTF-8".
13:48:25 ACTION: Shane to write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc.
13:48:25 Created ACTION-54 - Write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
13:48:52 XHTML2 - encoding = Encodings
13:48:52 This attribute specifies the allowable encoding of the external resource referenced by the @src attribute. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of encodings, such as "utf-8", "utf8, utf-16", or "utf-8, utf-16, *".
13:49:29 zakim, remind me in 30 to stop
13:49:29 ok, Steven
13:49:45 Special Attributes for XForms 1.0 SUBMISSION bind, ref, action, method, version, indent. mediatype, encoding. omit-xml-declaration, standalone, cdata-section-elements, replace, instance, separator, includenamespaceprefixes
13:50:09 TOPIC: section, h, and architectural purity
13:50:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Dec/0000.html
13:50:37 MG: i asked to have on agenda, but referring to different post
13:50:46 SP: strongly support this
13:51:14 SP: long had support for this PoV bar one member - can now get rid of h1 to h6
13:51:31 SP: like approach of putting them in legacy as long as make clear are legacy
13:51:45 RM: single module/collection called "legacy"?
13:51:49 RM: need a definition
13:52:11 SM: don't have legacy module yet - anything legacy and groups should be in own modules
13:52:13 ACTION: Shane to create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy.
13:52:14 Created ACTION-55 - Create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
13:52:33 MG: what goes in there in place of h1 to h6
13:53:00