14:56:51 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:56:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc 14:56:58 Meeting: SemWeb Deployment Working Group 14:57:04 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0013.html 14:57:17 TomB has joined #swd 14:57:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html previous 2009-02-24 14:57:30 rrsagent, please make record public 14:58:13 edsu has joined #swd 14:58:13 Chair: Tom 14:59:25 SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started 14:59:31 +[LC] 14:59:37 zakim, LC is edsu 14:59:37 +edsu; got it 14:59:47 +Ralph 15:00:30 aliman has joined #swd 15:00:42 +[CTIC] 15:00:45 zakim, [CTIC] is me 15:00:50 +berrueta; got it 15:00:56 +??P19 15:01:06 zakim, ??p19 is me 15:01:10 +TomB; got it 15:01:44 + +0186528aaaa 15:01:56 zakim, 0186528aaaa ia me 15:02:02 I don't understand '0186528aaaa ia me', aliman 15:02:13 zakim, 0186528aaaa is me 15:02:28 sorry, aliman, I do not recognize a party named '0186528aaaa' 15:03:18 zakim, +0186528aaaa is me 15:03:19 +aliman; got it 15:04:16 Scribenick: edsu 15:04:45 Today is the 100th meeting! 15:04:52 s/meeting/telecon 15:04:59 +Antoine_Isaac 15:05:23 regrets+ Sean 15:05:25 Antoine has joined #swd 15:05:56 RESOLVED to accept minutes of the last teleconference http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html 15:06:05 Topic: Admin 15:06:42 TomB: talk about next conference at the end of the call, we've been doing every 2 weeks, but for the next 3 tuesdays i'm not available, so Guus would need to chair that 15:06:50 Topic: SKOS 15:07:12 ACTION: Ralph include in the Call for Implementation prose on"feedback on implementations of SKOS Editors and Checkers"[recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2009/02/10-swd-minutes.html#action07] 15:07:17 --continues 15:07:28 Ralph: continues until we get the CR out 15:07:51 ... we're having email exchange with Addison and Richard, it seems that we are reaching agreement 15:08:10 ... we've changed the language that Addison had some concern with 15:08:29 ... if we don't see a response soon, it would be good to quote the new language in an email 15:08:45 TomB: lets come back to that when we get to the Primer 15:09:23 + +1.312.059.aabb 15:09:27 aliman: there was an email to the public-esw-thes list asking about the timetable from Norman Gray, could you or Guus respond to that? 15:09:53 aliman: would be nice to have a here is where we are at summary 15:10:17 TomB: what do we need from a process point of view to get consensus on to get the CR out? 15:10:25 Guus has joined #swd 15:10:36 [sorry to be late] 15:10:53 Ralph: the only dependency i'm aware of is for addision of the i18n wg to say they are satisfied 15:11:28 ->http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2009Feb/0037.html email from norman gray asking for timetable 15:11:44 ... alistair asked if we had responded adequately, at that point I was reasonably confident we hadn't ... my sense is we are close to getting approval 15:12:56 TomB: it looks to me like we are saying we've already changed the text in question, and we are waiting for him to say he agrees, but have we explicitly asked if he can live with the changes? 15:13:17 Ralph: perhaps we can see what alistair discovered w/ his action item? 15:14:03 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/thread.html#msg0 thread with Addison, Antoine, and Ralph 15:14:47 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0020.html Alistair opens issue 191 in response to Addison's mail 15:15:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Feb/0066.html 15:15:02 aliman: i just looked at the discussion prior to Antoine's point, richards comments, but i couldn't see an issue there 15:15:21 aliman: i sent that email to see if there's anything he'd like us to change, and have not heard back 15:15:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Feb/0067.html 15:16:00 aliman: i sent a separate email that provides a background example 15:16:23 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/191 15:16:32 ... in subsequent discussion i think there is a potential editorial issue, because addison has explicitly asked us to make some changes i added an issue to the tracker 15:16:52 ... he is asking us to make some reference to filtering and lookup schemes, ways of dealing with language tags 15:17:36 ... antoine's point about the changed wording might not address it, since addison is looking for some reference to RFC 4647 15:18:00 ... he won't be satisfied until the reference or the primary mention it 15:18:28 Antoine: i wanted to wait till this telecon before responding 15:18:49 aliman: i suggested a slightly revised version of the sentence for the reference 15:19:10 Antoine: if addison would like to have it added to the reference, i fully support it 15:19:19 +Ben_Adida 15:19:34 aliman: it's difficult for the primer, because the exact sentence would require examples 15:19:41 benadida has joined #swd 15:19:52 ... could be dealt with in a separate note that deals w/ i18n, but we're not going to have time for that 15:21:02 Ralph: it might have been premature to ask for the OK, before some of his questions were answered ... if i were him i would want to hear the WG say why they are using the american spelling for en 15:21:15 aliman: i found it hard to pick out the specific editorial issue 15:23:06 Ralph: perhaps just responding to his comments specifically, even if the response is that we tossed a coin ... 15:23:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Feb/0067.html 15:24:40 Ralph: i think we should go through Richard's message of feb 2nd and make sure that each of his comments, we have given him some reply to 15:25:02 ACTION: Alistair look at Richard Ishida and Felix Sasaki's messages in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Feb/thread.html#msg10 and see if there's an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:25:07 --done 15:25:32 TomB: antoine you were going to follow up with another email? 15:26:07 Antoine: i sent a link to the new primer, which solves the problem, i'm happy with what alistair did 15:26:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0020.html 15:26:41 ^ISSUE-191 reference filtering in RFC 4647 15:26:52 [Alistair 10-Mar] 15:27:05 TomB: if we had a favo(u)rable response to Richard's email, and one from Addison we would have no obstacles to moving forward w/ CR 15:27:10 Ralph: i think that's the case 15:27:18 :-) 15:27:49 Ralph: if we could resolve this by the end of this week, Ralph when would the CR actually be processed? 15:28:02 s/Ralph/TomB/ 15:28:12 Ralph: early next week 15:28:49 ... have to produce the evidence that we met the i18n review requirement, but if we have emails from Richard and Addision it should be ok 15:29:06 s/Addision/Addison/ 15:29:40 TomB: I'm wondering how to present this on the public-esw-thes list for when the rec might come out ... 15:30:00 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JanMar/0000.html SKOS CR Transition Request [Ralph 7-Jan] 15:30:05 Ralph: transition request was issued 2 months ago 15:30:38 Ralph: we propsed 27-feb, so we were thinking 6 weeks CR 15:30:51 s/propsed/proposed/ 15:31:05 ... we should stick with 6 weeks CR, so we'd be looking at May 1 15:31:29 ... for end of CR, add a week for any editorial changes 15:31:36 TomB: and then PR? 15:31:52 Rlawe could hope to have PR starting May 8th, ending June 5th 15:32:14 s/Rlawe/Ralph/ 15:32:34 TomB: i think we could say we inted to finish with Recommendation by the end of June 15:32:53 Ralph: we could say our schedule looks promising :) 15:33:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0016.html 15:33:47 TomB: Antoine has done two sanity checks of the skos ontology 15:34:07 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2009Mar/ Public-ESW-Thes archive 15:34:08 ... including xl, Antoine would you like to walk us through these comments? 15:34:37 Antoine: there are many small points, let the editors review them 15:35:03 ... question about the use of the dublincore namespace, proposed to move to the dcterms namespace 15:35:28 ... for the reference and the rdf file 15:35:40 ... is there consensus on that? 15:35:54 Ralph: it's preferred usage, doesn't change skos substantially 15:36:23 TomB: the new ones have formal domains and ranges, the legace dc-elements have no formal domains and ranges 15:36:48 Ralph: this change won't impact the conformance of SKOS usage though 15:36:53 Antoine: only editorial 15:37:06 ... no error on the formal semantics 15:37:14 TomB: there is one question you asked about the legacy labels 15:37:43 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0012.html "SKOS ontology sanity-check?" [Antoine 9-Mar] 15:38:14 Antoine: the natural language lables, all the skos vocab elements are given rdfs:labels, sometimes the follow verbs, and in other cases it's different, was wondering if we should enforce some homogeneity here 15:38:23 ... was wondering if there is some policy we could follow 15:38:47 hasTopConcept is "has top concept" 15:39:02 inScheme is not "is in scheme" 15:39:14 [[I don't really understand why the rdfs:label of hasTopConcept is "has top concept" while the rdfs:label of inScheme is not "is in scheme"! Or why the natural language rdfs:label of OrderedCollection is "Ordered Collection" with upper case O and C whereas "broadMatch" has a label "broad match" with only lower case.]] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Mar/0012.html 15:39:38 Ralph++ 15:40:12 aliman: i don't mind either way, i can live it the way it is, i just hope it doesn't take much time 15:40:32 ... would be happy for Antoine to go through it and regularize it :) 15:41:10 ... i don't know of any policy, we put properties in lower case and classes in upper case, sean did a bit of editorializing 15:41:21 Antoine: i'm ok with that, will talk to sean 15:42:15 ACTION: Antoine to ammend the labels and other annotations in skos rdf in consultation w/ sean 15:42:46 Antoine: does that mean i'd be changing the rdfs comments as i suggested? 15:42:50 aliman: yes 15:42:53 Ralph: +1 15:43:09 TomB: maybe you could send a diff to the list and if sean or anyone objects we could discuss that 15:43:23 Ralph, aliman support that 15:44:06 TomB: i can only see one reference to dc:title, since it's not mapped to a particular namespace it's not wrong, not sure if there's a need to change the reference or not 15:44:23 Ralph: at least the uri in the xmlns should change 15:44:46 ACTION: Antoine provide a pointer to the new Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action05] 15:44:49 -- DONE http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/primer/primer-20090224.html 15:44:52 --done 15:44:58 Alistair: it's worth changing to dct: just for clarity 15:45:05 ACTION: Sean move [48]http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/573036/SWD/implementation.html to the WG Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action07] 15:45:09 --done 15:45:19 ACTION: Antoine add the Vrieje Uni tool to the implementation report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action08] 15:45:22 --continues 15:45:51 TomB: wanted to have discussion about skos community, but would like to get through the rest of the agenda 15:45:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-minutes.html Ralph 15:45:58 Topic: RDFa 15:46:06 ACTION: Ben review RDFa Use Cases and propose transition to Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:46:10 --continues 15:46:17 [sorry to be late] 15:46:29 benadida: technically it should be a note, but perhaps just leaving it on the wiki is the right thing to do 15:47:01 Ralph: we have an rdfa as use case working draft dated 2 years ago, are you proposing to terminate that? 15:47:10 benadida: what would your recommendation be? 15:47:24 Ralph: what is the size of the deltas compared with what's in the wiki? 15:47:34 benadida: pretty large 15:47:50 Ralph: we should wrap up the working draft in some way, leaving it dangling is confusing 15:48:30 ... perhaps as part of this action you can think about what the most cost effective way of wrapping it up is. we could say we are dropping it ... personally i would prefer to snapshot the wiki and make it a working group note 15:48:53 ... the fact that the wiki is an evolving document is also good though 15:49:14 ... perhaps pointing from the note to the wiki would work 15:49:29 benadida: i would be in favor of doing some sort of snapshot, and then pointing at the wiki 15:49:54 Ralph: need to figure out how much work it would be, and if it was worth the effort 15:50:27 TomB: would you like to comment on state of play with HTML community? 15:50:51 benadida: i think i have 100 outstanding emails to read ... i have instituted inbox filtering for the first time because of that discussion :) 15:51:34 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html RDFa Task Force meeting record 2009-03-05 15:51:56 ... quickest summary, is that i'm a little bit pessimistic about the html working groups willingness to accept a specification that they didn't design themself, we're going to keep trying to show how rdfa doesn't break what they are doing, but i don't know if we're going to get an interesting result by the time the WG finishes 15:52:39 ... there was a reasonable issue brought up with the TAG, which i responsed to on the wiki, consistent syntax for the rel across versions of html 15:52:53 ... take a look at that for a substantial issue 15:53:15 http://rdfa.info/wiki/%40rel_attribute_discussion 15:53:18 ACTION: Ralph to review the revised Recipes draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-swd-minutes.html#action15] 15:53:21 --continues 15:53:25 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] 15:53:28 --continues 15:53:37 ACTION: Ralph post his comments on the editor's draft of the metadata note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-swd-minutes.html#action03] 15:53:41 --continues 15:53:50 Topic: SKOS Community 15:54:39 TomB: i think we should think about what kind of community support, or model could be used, wanted to ask Ben about the rdfa.info website, to say a bit about how it got started, and who maintains it, its relation to the w3c, etc 15:55:04 benadida: rdfa.info was started on a whim before www2006 presentation, where we wanted a url at the end of the presentation 15:55:38 ... we realized fairly quickly there was a need to rapidly add use cases and examples, and a wiki seemed like the right thing to do, the entire time creative commons was maintaining it 15:55:59 ... was very minor marginal work to have the extra instances running 15:56:08 ... that combination of a blog and media wiki worked out pretty well 15:56:26 ... have a spam extension installed, and one to do openid logins, and a few wiki gardeners 15:57:12 ... we're still struggling with making sure that someones stream of conciousness thinking doesn't imply w3c positions, so we're tagging things with big red banners that something is experimental 15:57:40 ... for example we're trying to explore html5 issues, but need to make clear they aren't rec or rec-track yet 15:58:10 TomB: Ralph is there an official policy about the relationship of ongoing community activities with recommendations? 15:58:35 Ralph: we've had some discussion of blogs, there is a QA blog that w3c hosts (Questions & Answers) 15:58:43 ... there is some encouragement, but no formal policy 15:59:12 ... i don't know if the communications team is aware of rdfa.info ; i don't think that there would be a particular position 15:59:48 TomB: there is a sense that this sort of thing is encouraged? 16:00:17 Ralph: w3c doesn't believe it should control how the community discusses amongst themself 16:01:50 -> http://www.w3.org/RDF/ RDF "home" page 16:01:52 ... there aren't enough team resources to do more of that sort of thing, so it's great people like Ben and Creative Commons can pitch in 16:01:52 TomB: was also looking at when does a w3c standard have a web page, aside from the list of technical reports, and do they point off at community maintained resources 16:01:54 ... was looking at the rdf page 16:02:14 ... it has links out to things happening in the community, but it's stopped being maintained 16:02:41 ... couldn't find similar page for rdfa, if there were a community site could it be pointed at from the w3c site? 16:02:48 -> http://www.w3.org/2004/OWL/ OWL home page 16:03:05 benadida: we do point to rdfa wiki from the primer 16:03:16 http://www.w3.org/RDF/ 16:03:47 Ralph: i agree, the rdf page could use some update, would be wonderful if someone wanted to contribute some updated content, like the OWL page which is somewhat more up to date 16:04:14 ... what i would like to solicit is a more attractive marketing page for RDF and RDFa and then the w3c homepage could be updated to point at them 16:04:27 TomB: so ideally there would be a page like that for SKOS as well? 16:04:53 Ralph: there is some discussion about what is eligible for an A-Z list, but I think i could convince the webmaster 16:05:35 (the "A to Z list" to which I refer is the W3C home page list http://www.w3.org/ ) 16:05:43 TomB: Guus when are we going to host the next telecon, would the 24th work, I am not available 16:05:49 Guus: 24th is fine for me 16:05:50 regrets for 24 March 16:06:19 Guus: would be available to chair 16:06:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-minutes.html Ralph 16:06:32 TomB: thanks everyone, this was the 100th telecon of the SWD! 16:06:39 - +1.312.059.aabb 16:06:41 -Ben_Adida 16:06:43 -berrueta 16:06:44 -Antoine_Isaac 16:06:44 -aliman 16:06:49 medals for everyone who has attended today's 100th telecon :) 16:06:51 -Ralph 16:06:55 :-) 16:07:03 -TomB 16:07:09 -edsu 16:07:09 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 16:07:10 Attendees were edsu, Ralph, berrueta, TomB, aliman, Antoine_Isaac, +1.312.059.aabb, Ben_Adida 16:07:37 zakim, list attendees 16:07:37 sorry, edsu, I don't know what conference this is 16:07:48 Ed? 16:07:57 still here :) 16:08:14 yea, 202.707.1288 16:08:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-minutes.html Ralph 16:09:27 zakim, bye 16:09:27 Zakim has left #swd 16:13:34 Antoine has left #swd 16:36:01 Ralph: thanks much, still talking to TomB on the phooe :) 16:44:58 rrsagent, bye 16:44:58 I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-actions.rdf : 16:44:58 ACTION: Ralph include in the Call for Implementation prose on"feedback on implementations of SKOS Editors and Checkers"[recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2009/02/10-swd-minutes.html#action07] [1] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-07-12 16:44:58 ACTION: Alistair look at Richard Ishida and Felix Sasaki's messages in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2009Feb/thread.html#msg10 and see if there's an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action01] [2] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-25-02 16:44:58 ACTION: Antoine to ammend the labels and other annotations in skos rdf in consultation w/ sean [3] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-42-15 16:44:58 ACTION: Antoine provide a pointer to the new Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action05] [4] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-44-46 16:44:58 ACTION: Sean move [48]http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/573036/SWD/implementation.html to the WG Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action07] [5] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-45-05 16:44:58 ACTION: Antoine add the Vrieje Uni tool to the implementation report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-swd-minutes.html#action08] [6] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-45-19 16:44:58 ACTION: Ben review RDFa Use Cases and propose transition to Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] [7] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-46-06 16:44:58 ACTION: Ralph to review the revised Recipes draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-swd-minutes.html#action15] [8] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-53-18 16:44:58 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] [9] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-53-25 16:44:58 ACTION: Ralph post his comments on the editor's draft of the metadata note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-swd-minutes.html#action03] [10] 16:44:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-swd-irc#T15-53-37