13:47:53 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:47:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-sparql-irc 13:48:09 zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:48:09 ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 13:48:13 zakim, code? 13:48:13 the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF 13:48:18 good job, zakim 13:48:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:48:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-sparql-minutes.html LeeF 13:48:47 rrsagent, makes minutes world 13:48:47 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes minutes world', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:48:50 rrsagent, makes log world 13:48:50 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes log world', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:48:53 rrsagent, make log world 13:49:13 Regrets: Bijan 13:49:47 Chair: LeeF 13:49:51 Scribe: Phil Brooks 13:50:58 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-10 13:51:09 LeeF has changed the topic to: SPARQL Working Group - teleconference 10 Mar @ 14:00 Z / 10:00 EST http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-10 13:52:02 SteveH has joined #sparql 13:52:05 kasei has joined #sparql 13:56:21 is phil there? john Clark would be the next on the scribe list (http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Scribe_List) 13:56:56 AxelPolleres, did you just send another mail about the time change? I haven't received one 13:57:05 john-l, can you scribe today if Phil isn't around? 13:57:13 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:57:14 LeeF: Yes, I can. 13:57:17 john-l, thanks 13:57:20 + +0793017aaaa 13:57:49 zakim, dial ivan-voip 13:57:49 ok, ivan; the call is being made 13:57:50 +??P32 13:57:58 +??P29 13:58:06 zakim, ??P29 is me 13:58:06 +AndyS; got it 13:58:08 + +1.216.445.aabb 13:58:15 Zakim: aabb is me 13:58:18 + +1.518.276.aacc 13:58:20 +Lee_Feigenbaum 13:58:24 -??P32 13:58:37 zakim, who is here? 13:58:38 On the phone I see +0793017aaaa, AndyS, +1.216.445.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum 13:58:44 On IRC I see kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 13:58:49 + +0383306aadd 13:58:49 zakim, dial ivan-voip 13:58:53 +??P32 13:58:55 ok, ivan; the call is being made 13:58:59 +Ivan 13:59:01 Zakim: ??PP32 is me 13:59:03 zakim, aacc is kasei 13:59:08 Zakim, ??PP32 is me 13:59:08 zakim, who is here? 13:59:09 +kasei; got it 13:59:15 +??P41 13:59:16 Zakim, +0383306aadd is me 13:59:16 zakim, mute me 13:59:19 sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named '??PP32' 13:59:23 On the phone I see +0793017aaaa, AndyS, +1.216.445.aabb, kasei, Lee_Feigenbaum, +0383306aadd, ??P32, Ivan, ??P41 13:59:25 Zakim, ??P32 is me 13:59:33 Zakim, 0383306aadd is me 13:59:34 +iv_an_ru; got it 13:59:36 kasei should now be muted 13:59:39 Zakim, aabb is me 13:59:42 On IRC I see kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 13:59:47 +SteveH; got it 13:59:52 AlexPassant has joined #sparql 13:59:57 sorry, iv_an_ru, I do not recognize a party named '0383306aadd' 14:00:01 Zakim, what is the code? 14:00:02 zakim, who is here? 14:00:05 +john-l; got it 14:00:19 Zakim: what is the code? 14:00:28 the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil 14:00:30 On the phone I see +0793017aaaa, AndyS, john-l, kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, SteveH, Ivan, ??P41 14:00:57 -SteveH 14:00:59 On IRC I see AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 14:01:02 + +2 14:01:24 - +2 14:01:36 +??P48 14:02:05 Zakim, ??P48 is me 14:02:06 q- 14:02:10 +??P53 14:02:24 +EricP 14:02:25 ack ??P41 14:02:32 + +1.317.277.aaff 14:02:36 +AlexPassant; got it 14:02:41 Zakim, +0793017aaaa is me 14:02:42 Zakim, aaff is me 14:02:46 +Orri 14:02:55 q= 14:02:56 Zakim, ??P41 is me 14:02:59 Zakim, who is speaking 14:03:09 +??P59 14:03:19 +LukeWM; got it 14:03:23 +kjetil; got it 14:03:35 +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:03:40 I already had ??P41 as AxelPolleres, SteveH 14:03:42 queue= 14:03:44 I don't understand 'who is speaking', AxelPolleres 14:03:46 q- 14:03:53 Phil has joined #SPARQL 14:03:53 q- 14:03:56 q- 14:04:08 zakim, ??P59 is Phil 14:04:14 + +1.415.371.aagg 14:04:22 zakim, who is here? 14:04:41 zakim, aagg is DaveNewman 14:04:45 +Phil; got it 14:04:46 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:05:03 + +1.603.897.aahh 14:05:06 On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l, kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, ??P53, EricP, kjetil, Orri, Phil, Chimezie_Ogbuji, 14:05:09 zakim, aahh is Souri 14:05:13 ... +1.415.371.aagg, +1.603.897.aahh 14:05:21 +DaveNewman; got it 14:05:46 +Souri; got it 14:05:48 On IRC I see chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 14:06:06 Zakim, mute me 14:06:14 zakim, ??P53 is SteveH 14:06:18 ywang4 has joined #sparql 14:06:23 kjetil should now be muted 14:06:29 +SteveH; got it 14:06:40 Zakim, unmute me 14:06:42 kjetil should no longer be muted 14:07:07 + +656304aaii 14:07:26 sorry for a bit late - Yimin 14:07:33 zakim, aaii is ywang4 14:07:33 +ywang4; got it 14:07:56 Zakim: please mute me 14:08:13 Zakim, please mute me 14:08:13 john-l should now be muted 14:08:15 Zakim, mute me 14:08:15 kjetil should now be muted 14:08:27 Scribenick: Phil 14:08:43 topic: Administrivia 14:08:57 PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-sparql-minutes.html 14:09:17 RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-sparql-minutes.html 14:09:18 Minutes from last week approved. 14:09:30 topic: next meeting 14:09:49 Souri has joined #sparql 14:10:05 Next Meeting: 10:00am EST on March 17 14:10:39 topic: Face to Face 14:11:02 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F1 Face to Face wiki page 14:11:47 q+ 14:12:31 q+ to talk about sponsorship 14:12:45 it seems i could not login the wiki with my w3c account... 14:13:02 +1 to have standard setup for "normal" dial-in as well. 14:13:08 ywang4, I'll ask the Wiki Folks about it 14:13:15 thanks 14:13:17 F2F scheduled from May 6-7. In person attendance encouraged. Everyone should check their calendars and let Lee know who will be attending (for planning purposes). 14:13:31 queue= 14:13:58 Cost at MIT is $20/day. Looking for sponsors for the MIT site. 14:14:25 Parties interested in sponsoring the MIT site should contact Eric. 14:14:34 (cheap advertising!) :-) 14:15:07 ... two options for alternate location: Brussels(?) and Manchester. 14:15:34 Bristol 14:16:00 s/Brussels(?)/Bristol/ 14:16:14 q+ 14:16:20 ack iva 14:16:21 ack ivan 14:16:30 Opportunity for 2nd F2F at TPAC2009 in Santa Clara, CA the week of Nov. 2-6, 2009. What does everyone think? 14:17:18 Ivan: Santa Clara may be too expensive. W3C considering alternate location - will decide in several weeks. 14:17:45 For me, CA in Nov would be nice contrast with Novosibirsk in Nov :) 14:18:55 ISWC is week before TPAC2009; attending both could be problematic/costly 14:19:34 ISWC is Oct. 25-29 14:19:41 co-location with ISWC would be an option. 14:19:42 ISWC2009 is 25-29 October per http://iswc2009.semanticweb.org/ 14:19:44 Alternately, F2F could occur at ISWC 14:21:57 TPAC may be a better option as there will be opportunity to integrate with other W3C groups. 14:22:19 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:Features feature prpodsals 14:24:16 i wonder if we could use chad for rating the priorities 14:25:17 Lee and Axel's role is to ensure that the "right" list of features is adopted (i.e. Lee wants to make everyone unhappy - at least, a little!) 14:25:37 Topic: overview of features 14:26:35 Lee reminds that the group is responsible for creating the specifications for the features that are adopted (and that is not trivial). 14:27:16 Point 1: We won't probably be able to do all in 18month, that might guide us to narrow down the number. 14:29:28 Support by implementations important, pervasive support, usefulness. Can requested features be done with the language as is? 14:29:34 Point 3: SPARQL already has some extension points 14:30:04 option: standardize on extensibility points rather than extensions themselves. 14:30:47 Framework for features to converge outside of this WG process 14:30:52 The features that get adopted must be interoperable (and should be core to the language). SPARQL v1 already has some extensibility points; just because we "could" standardize an extension does not mean we "have to". It may be a better use of our time to standardize on extensibility points rather than to standardize an extension in and of itself. For example, standardizing a service option may advance SPARQL further (especially with respect to interoperabilit 14:32:36 -ywang4 14:32:47 +ywang4 14:33:38 It's unrealistic to review all the proposed features on a teleconference; participation on the SPARQL working group must include work outside of the call. In particular, please start threads on the mailing list regarding your "favorite" feature and why. Others should reply to the posts, ask questions, clarify as needed, challenge as desired, etc. In summary, the mailing lists (and associated threads) will be the main method for discussing the various feature 14:33:43 q+ to suggest a mailing convention like Subject: [AccessingRdfLists] blah blah blah 14:34:16 ack ericP 14:34:16 ericP, you wanted to suggest a mailing convention like Subject: [AccessingRdfLists] blah blah blah 14:34:35 q+ 14:34:45 ack ivan 14:34:56 +1 to distinct mail-subjects 14:34:56 There are two features: BI and Federation. Others are minor details of these two :) 14:35:12 There definately seems to be some overlap 14:35:37 +1 to offline go over the list and try to propose merge to authors. 14:35:48 There may be some features that could be merged - Lee encourages anyone interested in doing so to review which are candidates for merging and then make such a proposal. 14:36:02 q+ 14:37:04 ack AxelPolleres 14:37:45 All work group participants come from varying backgrounds and with different opinions - we will try to reach consensus. However, we all need to maintain an open mind as we review the features and consider which ones to go forward with. 14:38:54 First we should agree about some objectives that are more precise than "better SPARQL, upward-compatible" 14:38:59 SteveH, ok that overconsolidation should be avoided, but try to make links *and differences* with related features explicit. 14:39:43 as of last night, my top priorities were update and lists 14:40:02 topic: ProjectExpressions 14:40:05 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ProjectExpressions 14:41:15 q+ 14:42:06 I would relate it to constructors for RDF terms. 14:42:08 ack ivan 14:42:34 i think it returns a boolean 14:43:09 pure post-processing 14:43:14 Ivan asked clarifying question about first example - the "(?age > 18)" projects a boolean value 14:44:08 q+ 14:44:08 zakim, who's here? 14:44:09 On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil, 14:44:12 sorry, it's a wacky first example 14:44:13 ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4 14:44:14 On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, 14:44:16 q+ 14:44:17 ... trackbot, ericP 14:44:17 mea culpa 14:44:29 No, I think it's a fine first example, once you understand what's going on. 14:44:43 AxelPolleres: Might be one or the other with assignment 14:44:56 i agree, and assignment is more powerful 14:44:57 ack ivan 14:45:00 ack AxelPolleres 14:45:04 q- 14:45:04 +q 14:45:29 ack iv_an_ru 14:45:32 Syntax debates should be reserved for the mailing list 14:45:40 Perhaps say "whether the person is over 18" instead of "where the person is over 18"? 14:47:20 +1 14:47:28 +0 14:47:28 +1 14:47:31 +0 14:47:34 Polling of opinions regarding Project Expressions (poll on IRC) 14:47:37 +1 14:47:38 +1 14:47:39 +1 14:47:39 +0 14:47:40 +1 14:47:40 +1 (modulo redundancy avoidance w.r.t. assignment) 14:47:40 +1 14:47:41 +1 14:47:46 +1 14:47:50 +1 14:47:56 +1 14:47:58 and agree with AndyS regarding the potential for rewriting 14:48:07 +1 14:49:14 In general, the group seems to be strongly in favor of Project Expressions. 14:49:19 topic: subselects 14:49:21 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SubSelects 14:49:26 Next topic: subselects 14:50:04 SteveH: subselects gives you other features "for free" 14:50:15 ... e.g. !ASK for some forms of negation 14:50:35 q+ to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS. 14:51:08 q+ 14:51:20 In addition to Virtuoso as listed on the Wiki, there are other implementers of sub-select as well. 14:51:37 ack ericP 14:51:37 ericP, you wanted to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS. 14:51:38 (at least 2, anyway) 14:52:17 +q to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing 14:52:53 The cost to the algebra is actually quite small to allow nesting queries. One issue: breaks the multiset/sequence distinction but it's fixable and probably needed any way 14:52:57 ack ivan 14:53:00 q+ to disagree with eric 14:53:01 ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal 14:53:10 Related to: EXISTS/NOT EXISTS/UNSAID 14:53:19 which are a sub-ASK 14:55:24 What does "+>" in ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal stand for? 14:56:01 Is +> doable with braketted syntax? 14:56:20 AxelPolleres: apprently because the example after is suposed to be equivalent 14:56:28 s/braketted/bracketed/ 14:56:39 Simpler examples on sub-select wiki might help. There have been simpler social-networking examples in the mailing lists. 14:56:43 sorry, AxelPolleres, not : 14:57:33 I'm not familiar with TPC. 14:57:40 i am not familiar, unfortunately 14:57:40 I'm not either 14:58:58 Many folks are not familiar with the TPC queries; therefore, the simplest queries should be used for all of the feature categories (instead of the more complex TPC queries). 14:58:58 q? 14:59:06 ack chimezie 14:59:06 chimezie, you wanted to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing 14:59:33 ack SteveH 14:59:33 SteveH, you wanted to disagree with eric 15:00:04 SteveH: adding too many surface syntax features makes query language complicated 15:00:05 I am somewhat familiar, but we should decouple the examples from TPC benchmark to explain the utility. 15:00:15 zakim, who's here? 15:00:15 On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil, 15:00:21 ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4 15:00:21 +1 15:00:21 0 15:00:23 +0 15:00:25 On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, 15:00:25 Polling for sub-selects: 15:00:28 ... trackbot, ericP 15:00:29 +0 15:00:31 +1 15:00:32 +1 15:00:33 +1 15:00:33 +0 15:00:35 SteveH, i understand your point. would like to look in detail with you 15:00:35 -1 15:00:42 +0.75 15:00:42 +0 15:00:42 Orri: 1 15:00:42 +0 15:00:53 David: +1 15:01:00 +0 15:01:06 +0 15:01:11 +1 15:01:23 ericP, yes, sure 15:01:47 my hunch is that the verb count ends up the same 15:01:50 take care 15:01:56 meeting adjourned. 15:01:58 i gotta run now, or i'd erpsue 15:02:00 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:02:04 -Ivan 15:02:06 -DaveNewman 15:02:08 -Souri 15:02:12 -john-l 15:02:14 -AlexPassant 15:02:16 -kjetil 15:02:18 -ywang4 15:02:19 ericP, I have some "work" to do, but catch me in the future 15:02:22 -Phil 15:02:26 -SteveH 15:02:26 Phil, thanks for scribing, I will take care of the minutes from here 15:02:30 -kasei 15:02:32 -iv_an_ru 15:02:38 -Orri 15:02:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:02:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-sparql-minutes.html LeeF 15:02:51 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:03:18 zakim, who's here? 15:03:18 On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres, EricP 15:03:21 On IRC I see ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 15:03:27 -EricP 15:03:31 -LukeWM 15:03:31 Hey, Lee. Trying commonscribe? Let me know how it goes? 15:03:41 -Lee_Feigenbaum 15:03:43 sandro, I can't use it until the issue is resolved somehow :( 15:03:50 SteveH has joined #sparql 15:03:55 -AxelPolleres 15:03:57 -AndyS 15:03:59 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 15:04:01 Attendees were AndyS, +1.216.445.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum, Ivan, kasei, iv_an_ru, SteveH, john-l, +2, AxelPolleres, EricP, +1.317.277.aaff, AlexPassant, Orri, LukeWM, 15:04:01 just edit the wiki page globally changing ivan to ivanh. 15:04:08 ... kjetil, Chimezie_Ogbuji, +1.415.371.aagg, Phil, +1.603.897.aahh, DaveNewman, Souri, +656304aaii, ywang4 15:04:08 blech. ok, maybe 15:04:10 :-) 15:04:16 (sorry) 15:04:30 :-) 15:05:23 By the way, a prize to ericP for being the first to vote -1 on something. yay for -1 votes! 15:08:19 heh.... 15:10:36 LukeWM has left #sparql 15:15:05 kasei has left #sparql 15:29:16 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:33:00 ok, time to try CommonScribe 15:33:56 Step 1. Log the Meeting - CHECK 15:34:04 Step 2. Type what is happening - CHECK 15:34:29 Step 3. Put the chat log in the wiki. 15:35:47 sandro, i'm stuck here, when I click "copy IRC log", it's unhappy with my W3C credentials 15:36:20 sandro, also the user's guide or the control panel could use some sort of pointer to where on the wiki the log is copied to 16:17:12 weird, Lee. What error message? 16:17:25 I'll try it 16:18:17 Ohhhh, I see, it keeps prompting. WTF. 16:25:06 yeah, exactly 16:28:45 AndyS_ has joined #sparql 16:30:46 hey AndyS_Testing 16:30:51 i'll go find liza 16:31:29 We're just setting up now 16:32:25 liza just pointed out that the room comes wiht instructions 16:32:30 maybe i didn't have to pester her 16:34:35 Having local network issues ... 16:35:59 W'ell try ISDN 16:38:04 Phoning ... 16:38:24 hmm, green button no worky 16:38:27 Is the polycom ringing? 16:38:31 Got vmail 16:38:45 try again? 16:39:34 did you leave a message? 16:39:43 Trying again ... 16:40:10 Ringing ... 16:40:24 give up 16:40:29 hang on a moment 16:41:06 we're scratching our chins 16:41:22 No prob - we have local problems to sort out first. 16:41:27 you're using the phone num, right? 16:43:09 were you dialing +1.617.258.0340? 16:43:21 Yes - another problem with that ... !!! 16:43:33 CAn you voice-phone me here to discuss? 16:43:41 +44 312 9187 16:43:42 sure, +1.617.599.3509 16:43:50 ok, who dials? 16:43:52 Will call you .... 17:04:47 LeeF, I think I fixed the access control problem. ("HTTP POST" is a special permission bit in the w3.org access control, different from WORLD READ.) 17:10:10 whoa, that's odd 17:10:21 that's EricP's fault, right? :-) 17:10:26 Yes, it is. :-() 17:10:30 I mean :-) 17:10:39 oh hey is tonight CSWG? 17:10:44 I've got to run, but will try it later - I'll probably be coming by MIT around 4 or so 17:10:46 yeah 17:10:50 will you be at MIT late afternoon? 17:11:57 Yeah, I think I'll head in shortly. 17:18:16 ok, will look you up then 17:24:53 Zakim has left #sparql 17:30:11 rrsagent, please leave 17:30:11 I see no action items