12:33:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
12:33:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-irc
12:33:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #awwsw
12:33:33 <dbooth> zakim, this will be awwsw
12:33:33 <Zakim> ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
12:33:44 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
12:33:50 <dbooth> Chair: Jonathan Rees (jar)
12:47:43 <mhausenblas> Scribenick: mhausenblas
12:48:08 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Mar/0009.html
12:48:27 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
12:48:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
12:48:37 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
12:59:58 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
12:59:59 <mhausenblas> ok
13:00:06 <Zakim> +DBooth
13:00:21 <dbooth> Topic: Diagrams
13:00:25 <Zakim> +??P9
13:00:38 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P9 is me
13:00:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
13:01:40 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:01:50 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
13:05:20 <Zakim> + +1.617.538.aaaa
13:05:29 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Michael to check missing pointers from AWWSW to minutes and add if necessary
13:05:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Check missing pointers from AWWSW to minutes and add if necessary [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-03-17].
13:06:39 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:06:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:08:37 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
13:08:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
13:08:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, +1.617.538.aaaa, Alan_Ruttenberg, DBooth
13:08:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, dbooth, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:09:28 <dbooth> Jonathan's diagram: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/jar-diagram-3.pdf
13:10:57 <mhausenblas> dbooth: had some difficulties understanding the diagram
13:11:14 <mhausenblas> ... reason might be that arrows are used a bit unsual
13:11:59 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
13:12:02 <Zakim> - +1.617.538.aaaa
13:12:05 <dbooth> Michael: No huge difficulty understanding jar's diagram, but unsure of the overall goal.  What are we really after?
13:12:11 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
13:12:15 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
13:12:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Jonathan_Rees, DBooth
13:12:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, dbooth, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:12:57 <mhausenblas> Jonathan: a starting point it is ;)
13:13:31 <jar> jar has joined #awwsw
13:13:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: would like to clarify the goal, first, if possible 
13:14:31 <mhausenblas> dbooth: from NS to response from service?
13:14:59 <mhausenblas> jar: timbl and stuart wanted to differentiate between HTTP entity and representation
13:16:14 <mhausenblas> dbooth: HTTP message and response from service different boxes?
13:16:47 <mhausenblas> jar: probably the same, but from HTTP in the two different ways (communication vs XXX)
13:17:24 <mhausenblas> s/XXX/REST
13:17:36 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minute
13:17:36 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minute', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:17:48 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:17:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:19:40 <dbooth> michael: I read Roy's ACM article, but we should be careful what part we adopt as a basis -- that whole thing regarding ont and epist thing.  Worth summarizing what's in there.  I could summarize it.  
13:19:55 <dbooth> jar: It's not open access -- requires permission to access.
13:20:05 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minute
13:20:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minute', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:20:10 <mhausenblas> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=514183.514185
13:21:05 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Michael to summarise Roy's article on REST
13:21:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarise Roy's article on REST [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-03-17].
13:22:18 <dbooth> michael: We usually, with ont, try to come up with instances.  Are we ready to do that?
13:23:49 <dbooth> michael: as long as we're only talking at the metalevel we'll get into endless loops.
13:23:58 <mhausenblas> jar: I can populate it
13:24:02 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
13:24:44 <mhausenblas> jar: example is the Generic URI note itself (the HTML page)
13:25:34 <dbooth> michael: Until that is done, it may be hard to communicate.  Instances may help.
13:26:40 <mhausenblas> dbooth: how about an example with a cookie
13:26:59 <mhausenblas> jar: what's the difference to UA?
13:27:39 <mhausenblas> dbooth: a good second example might be the 'my bank account', yes dbooth 
13:28:05 <dbooth> michael: If you book a flight, it depends on the country what content you see, etc.
13:28:36 <dbooth> alan: That's exactly why that idea of a time varying info thing doesn't make sense.  Missing link to external world.
13:28:38 <mhausenblas> Alan: link to the external world is missing in that diagram
13:29:18 <mhausenblas> jar: lot of different things to say with 200, right?
13:29:50 <mhausenblas> dbooth: let's choose a canonical example
13:30:49 <mhausenblas> Alan: where my questions re the relations answered
13:31:24 <mhausenblas> jar: yes see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Mar/0010.html
13:31:58 <mhausenblas> jar: I think what bothers Alan is the formality
13:32:50 <mhausenblas> jar: for example, the Moby Dick example (abstract, not bound to the real word thing)
13:33:57 <mhausenblas> scribe doesn't understand Alan (to noisy) -  sorry
13:35:42 <mhausenblas> Alan: time-varying concept doesn't make sense
13:35:49 <mhausenblas> dbooth: why?
13:36:37 <mhausenblas> Alan: for most parts of the diagram they are grounded
13:37:44 <mhausenblas> Alan: it is not about modelling, it is about capturing, common understanding, definitions, etc
13:37:48 <mhausenblas> q+
13:38:21 <mhausenblas> ack me
13:39:12 <dbooth> michael: Why don't we model obvious things like URIs, status codes, etc.?  I believe everything should be grounded, but we then hit a meta layer where we define it.
13:39:49 <mhausenblas> jar: let's relabel the box 
13:43:21 <mhausenblas> dbooth: let's rename it to TimBLsGenericResource
13:44:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: +1
13:46:21 <mhausenblas> Michael volunteers to set up the ontology part
13:48:52 <mhausenblas> Michael: let's put jar's current diagram as an RDF-S schema into a Neologism instance (run through Pellet online then)
13:49:30 <dbooth> dbooth: Proposed example instance of "TimBLsGenericResource": a web page that is occasionally updated and is served in multiple languages and encodings.
13:50:01 <jar> please: URIs contain accession numbers - the labels are human readable but labile - URIs stable
13:50:08 <dbooth> dbooth: +1 to michael's offer :)
13:50:12 <mhausenblas> cheers ;)
13:51:37 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Michael to code jar's diagram in RDF-S 
13:51:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Code jar's diagram in RDF-S  [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-03-17].
13:52:18 <mhausenblas> jar: canonical examples are...
13:52:27 <mhausenblas> ... FTRR - bank account
13:53:11 <jar> what about the AWWSWVocabulary
13:54:49 <mhausenblas> Alan: the cookies violate the principles, not everything is conveyed via the REST modelling
13:55:23 <lori> lori has joined #awwsw
13:55:34 <lori> zakim, lori is alan
13:55:34 <Zakim> sorry, lori, I do not recognize a party named 'lori'
13:55:45 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is lori 
13:55:45 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
13:55:50 <lori> zakim, I am alanr
13:55:50 <Zakim> ok, lori, I now associate you with Alan_Ruttenberg
13:56:17 <lori> jar: can you send me the graffle?
13:56:21 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
13:56:28 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:56:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:56:35 <dbooth> dbooth: Canonical example of ftrr: dereferencing http://mybank.example/balance yields dbooth's balance if dbooth's login cookie is sent in the request.
13:57:03 <lori> lori has left #awwsw
13:57:05 <dbooth> s/mybank/citibank/
13:57:10 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
13:57:24 <alanr> rrsagent, pointer
13:57:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-irc#T13-57-24
13:59:29 <mhausenblas> Michael: Roy's ACM paper explicitly mentions cookies breaking the REST model
13:59:55 <alanr> a bank account is not a representation
14:01:35 <alanr> update of "loose talk sinks ships" -> "loose talk crashes mars rovers"
14:01:37 <jar> a bank account page (like main account page) *has* many representations... one for each account... and "constructed" or rendered on demand, not stored
14:01:41 <mhausenblas> jar: how does he REST model handle cookies, etc.
14:03:23 <alanr> s/*has*/*can have*/
14:04:18 <alanr> for frbr, closest to expression is the box time varying information thing
14:04:36 <alanr> for frbr item just means instances
14:05:12 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:05:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:06:48 <mhausenblas> jar: a REST resource has a membership function
14:06:56 <mhausenblas> dbooth: what about time?
14:09:25 <Stuart> Stuart has joined #awwsw
14:10:44 <Zakim> +??P75
14:10:52 <Stuart> zakim, ?? is me
14:10:52 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
14:11:28 <mhausenblas> Michael: what about a human in the picture minting a URI and assigning meaning
14:12:05 <Stuart> Bummer.... I goofed with the hour change.
14:12:32 <mhausenblas> jar: the three models are TimBLsGenericResource, REST resource, HTTP response
14:13:12 <jar> 3 points of triangle: generic resource, REST, http response source
14:14:19 <mhausenblas> jar: next meeting on 31 March
14:14:25 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
14:14:27 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
14:14:27 <Zakim> -DBooth
14:14:31 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
14:14:36 <Zakim> -Stuart
14:14:37 <mhausenblas> zakim, list attendees
14:14:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DBooth, mhausenblas, +1.617.538.aaaa, Alan_Ruttenberg, Jonathan_Rees, Stuart
14:14:42 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:14:44 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:14:45 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, mhausenblas, +1.617.538.aaaa, Alan_Ruttenberg, Jonathan_Rees, Stuart
14:14:49 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:14:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:14:54 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
14:14:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
14:14:58 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
14:14:58 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-actions.rdf :
14:14:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to check missing pointers from AWWSW to minutes and add if necessary [1]
14:14:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-irc#T13-05-29
14:14:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to summarise Roy's article on REST [2]
14:14:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-irc#T13-21-05
14:14:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to code jar's diagram in RDF-S  [3]
14:14:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-awwsw-irc#T13-51-37