IRC log of wam on 2009-03-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:10 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:00:12 [Zakim]
14:00:19 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
14:00:21 [fjh]
zakim, ??P1 is fjh
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+fjh; got it
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ScribeNick: ArtB
14:00:49 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
14:00:52 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
14:00:57 [ArtB]
Date: 5 March 2009
14:01:05 [ArtB]
Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
14:01:15 [ArtB]
14:01:25 [ArtB]
Regrets: Claudio, Bryan
14:01:33 [fjh]
widgets signature editors draft update
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14:01:54 [Zakim]
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14:02:14 [Marcos]
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+ +47.23.69.aaaa
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Present: Art, Frederick, Josh, Jere, Marcos, Arve
14:02:42 [fjh]
14:02:43 [Zakim]
14:02:56 [ArtB]
zakim, ??P7 is David
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+David; got it
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Present +David
14:03:07 [arve_]
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Topic: Review and tweak agenda
14:03:17 [arve_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Art_Barstow, fjh, Josh_Soref, Jere, +47.23.69.aaaa, David
14:03:17 [timeless]
zakim, who is on?
14:03:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, timeless.
14:03:25 [ArtB]
AB: agenda posted March 4 - is
14:03:36 [arve_]
zakim, aaaa is Arve/Marcos
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+Arve/Marcos; got it
14:03:36 [drogersuk]
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14:03:53 [ArtB]
AB: the main agenda items are Open Issues. I only want to spend a few minutes on each of them to get a sense of where we are e.g. still Open, pending inputs, can be Closed. Any detailed technical discussions should occur on public-webapps mail list.
14:04:00 [ArtB]
... Are there any change requests?
14:04:08 [ArtB]
[ None ]
14:04:13 [ArtB]
Topic: Announcements
14:04:20 [ArtB]
AB: I don't have any urgent announcements
14:04:25 [ArtB]
... what about others?
14:04:48 [ArtB]
FH: please submit comments on XML Sig 1.1 drafts
14:05:04 [ArtB]
DR: I will respond to Art's BONDI 1.0 email so please look at that
14:05:29 [fjh]
please review XML Signature 1.1 and XML Signature Properties FPWD
14:05:30 [fjh]
14:05:32 [ArtB]
MC: I uploaded the Window Modes spec; would like to get that on the agenda
14:05:58 [ArtB]
Topic: DigSig + P&C synchronization
14:06:11 [ArtB]
AB: earlier this week Frederick asked me if the DigSig + P&C specs are now in synch, based on last week's discussions?
14:06:14 [fjh]
14:06:22 [ArtB]
... I believe the answer is yes.
14:06:43 [ArtB]
AB: where are we on this?
14:07:01 [ArtB]
MC: FHI and I talked about this
14:07:15 [ArtB]
... I think this is mostly now addressed
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... P&C has no real depedency on DigSig
14:07:55 [ArtB]
14:08:01 [fjh]
marcos notes merged steps 4 +5, moved locating to dig sig, removed signature variable from p + c
14:08:06 [ArtB]
... I haven't completed the P&C changes yet
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... e.g. renumber some steps
14:08:22 [fjh]
fjh notes revised text on locating to fit it within digsig but essence is same
14:08:42 [ArtB]
FH: I had to revise the location text a bit but the logic is the same
14:09:00 [ArtB]
... Josh asked about the sorting
14:09:28 [ArtB]
... I need to think about that a bit more
14:09:45 [ArtB]
JS: need to clarify diff between "9" and "009"
14:09:55 [ArtB]
... we can take this discussion to the list
14:10:03 [ArtB]
FH: I agree we need more rigor here
14:10:10 [ArtB]
MC: I agree too
14:10:47 [ArtB]
... need to address case sensitivity too
14:11:04 [ArtB]
AB: can we point to some existing work?
14:11:31 [ArtB]
FH: I don't think this is a big issue and agree we can discuss on the list
14:11:52 [ArtB]
AB: what needs to be done then?
14:12:07 [ArtB]
FH: I need to make a few changes to DigSig and MC needs to do a bit more on P&C
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14:12:36 [ArtB]
JS: re styling, orange doesn't work well for me regarding readability
14:12:43 [ArtB]
MC: I can help with that
14:13:12 [ArtB]
FH: I'll take a pass at that
14:13:40 [ArtB]
DR: re the ell curve issue, I have asked OMTP to provide comments by March 9 so I should have data for the WG by Mar 12
14:13:50 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-19 - Widgets digital Signatures spec does not meet required use cases and requirements;
14:13:58 [ArtB]
AB: do we now consider this issue adequately addressed to close it?
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... <>
14:14:32 [fjh]
zakim, unmute me
14:14:32 [Zakim]
fjh should no longer be muted
14:14:35 [ArtB]
AB: my gut feel here is this is now addressed and we can close it.
14:14:38 [ArtB]
AB: any comments?
14:14:54 [ArtB]
MC: the DigSig enumerates reqs it addresses
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... it's a bit out of sync
14:15:22 [ArtB]
... we need to sync the Reqs doc with the DigSig spec re the reqs
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MC: so I think we can close it
14:15:45 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments?
14:15:46 [fjh]
zakim, unmute me
14:15:46 [Zakim]
fjh was not muted, fjh
14:15:59 [ArtB]
FH: not sure how much synching we need to do on the reqs
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... I do think we can close this issue
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RESOLUTION: we close Issue #19 as the spec now adresses the original concerns
14:17:04 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-80 - Runtime localization model for widgets
14:17:05 [fjh]
zakim, mute me
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fjh should now be muted
14:17:15 [ArtB]
AB: are there still some pending actions and input needed?
14:17:23 [ArtB]
... <>
14:17:44 [ArtB]
... what is the plan for the next couple of weeks?
14:17:55 [ArtB]
MC: I added a new example to the latest ED
14:18:05 [ArtB]
... I still have some additional work on the model
14:18:12 [ArtB]
... I talked with JS earlier today
14:18:22 [ArtB]
... I'm still uneasy re the fwd slash "/"
14:18:30 [ArtB]
... we must maintain the semantics of URI
14:18:49 [ArtB]
... Need to understand if we can do it without the leading /
14:19:01 [ArtB]
... and to still have the fallback model
14:19:12 [Marcos]
14:19:42 [ArtB]
AB: note there are related actions 298 and 299
14:20:09 [ArtB]
AB: are there other inputs you need?
14:20:31 [ArtB]
MC: by the end of the day I hope to have something to share with Jere and Josh
14:21:23 [ArtB]
JK: I will review it later and send comments
14:22:19 [ArtB]
AB: we need not just Editors but technical contributors too
14:22:36 [ArtB]
DR: it would be helpful if MC could identify areas where Bryan can help
14:23:12 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments on #80?
14:23:17 [ArtB]
... we will leave that open for now
14:23:26 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-82 - potential conflict between the XHTML <access> and Widget <access> element.
14:23:43 [ArtB]
AB: What, if anything, should be done?
14:23:58 [ArtB]
... <>
14:24:16 [ArtB]
MC: re last Topic, Jere, please consider XML Base when you review the new inputs
14:24:36 [ArtB]
JK: yes, good point and that should be reflected in the spec
14:25:09 [ArtB]
MC: this can be conceived of as a virtual file system at the conceptual level
14:25:25 [ArtB]
JK: don't want the spec to specify a file system
14:25:44 [ArtB]
MC: agree; I was just using that as part of my mental model
14:26:14 [JereK]
I thought it was just shuffling URLs also in impl
14:26:25 [ArtB]
AB: re #82 was not discussed in Paris
14:26:30 [ArtB]
... what are people thinking?
14:26:43 [ArtB]
MC: I think we can close this since we are using a separate namespace
14:26:46 [ArtB]
Arve: agree
14:26:54 [ArtB]
AB: other comments?
14:26:59 [ArtB]
AB: I completely agree
14:27:20 [timeless]
"namespaces will save us ;-)"
14:27:28 [ArtB]
AB: propose we close this with a resolution of "we address this by defining our own namespace"
14:27:35 [ArtB]
AB: any objections to this proposal?
14:27:36 [JereK]
or "believe in namespaces or not" :)
14:27:55 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: close Issue #82 - we address by defining our own namespace
14:28:08 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-83 - Instantiated widget should not be able to read digital signature.
14:28:25 [ArtB]
AB: What is the status of this issue and is this against P&C spec of DigSig spec?
14:28:31 [ArtB]
... <>
14:28:44 [ArtB]
AB: did you create this Marcos?
14:28:55 [fjh]
14:28:58 [ArtB]
MC: yes. It was raised by Marcoss
14:29:06 [fjh]
zakim, unmute me
14:29:06 [Zakim]
fjh should no longer be muted
14:29:14 [Marcos]
14:29:29 [ArtB]
FH: this issues identifies an potential attack
14:29:57 [ArtB]
AB: is this something we must address in v1?
14:30:09 [ArtB]
MC: yes. Need a 1-liner in the DigSig spec
14:30:22 [ArtB]
FH: I don't quite understand the issue though
14:30:27 [ArtB]
MC: me neither
14:30:37 [ArtB]
FH: we already have some security consids
14:30:53 [ArtB]
... I recommend we get some more information from Mark
14:31:24 [ArtB]
AB: so we need to get more info from Mark?
14:31:27 [ArtB]
MC: yes
14:31:39 [ArtB]
FH: I don't understand the real threat scenario
14:31:43 [Zakim]
+ +45.29.aabb
14:32:10 [ArtB]
MC: me neither
14:32:14 [ArtB]
JS: same with me
14:32:33 [ArtB]
FH: I would close this and ask Mark to provide more information
14:32:43 [ArtB]
DR: or could leave it open until Mark responds
14:33:15 [ArtB]
AB: we'll leave it open for now and I'll take an action to ping Mark for more information on the threat scenario
14:33:17 [fjh]
s/would close this/suggest this be closed unless we have new information
14:33:22 [fjh]
zakim, mute me
14:33:22 [Zakim]
fjh should now be muted
14:33:33 [ArtB]
ACTION: Barstow ask Mark to provide more information about the real threat scenario re Issue #83
14:33:44 [ArtB]
Topic: Widget requirement #37 (URI scheme etc) - see e-mail from Thomas:
14:34:04 [ArtB]
AB: Thomas submitted some comments against Req #37 and I don't believe we have yet responded
14:34:10 [ArtB]
... <>
14:34:17 [ArtB]
AB: perhaps we should take the discussion to public-webapps and drop it from today's agenda. OK?
14:34:46 [ArtB]
AB: any comments?
14:34:59 [ArtB]
Topic: Open Actions
14:35:09 [ArtB]
AB: last week we created about 20 Actions and about 15 are still open.
14:35:24 [ArtB]
... To continue to make good progress on our specs we need to address these actions ASAP
14:35:33 [ArtB]
... Please review the actions and address any assigned to you.
14:35:40 [ArtB]
... Also do indeed feel free to submit inputs to address others' actions
14:35:46 [ArtB]
... Widget Actions are: <>
14:36:44 [ArtB]
... Let me know if you want agenda time for any of these Actions
14:37:08 [ArtB]
Topic: June f2f meeting
14:37:15 [ArtB]
AB: re location, we now have three proposals: Oslo/Opera, Edinburgh/OMTP and London/Vodafone. That's certainly sufficient to close the call for hosts.
14:37:27 [ArtB]
AB: re the dates, June 2-4 are preferable.
14:37:40 [ArtB]
AB: it will of course be impossible to satisfy everyone's #1 priority
14:37:59 [ArtB]
DR: June 2-4 conflicts with OMTP meeting
14:38:25 [ArtB]
AB: we should also be as Green as we can as well as to try to minimize travel costs and simplify logistics for everyone, including those attending from other continents
14:38:40 [fjh]
that first week of june is not good for me
14:38:59 [ArtB]
AB: are there any other conflicts with June 2-4?
14:39:10 [fjh]
zakim, unmute me
14:39:10 [Zakim]
fjh should no longer be muted
14:39:28 [ArtB]
AB: are there any conflicts with June 9-11?
14:39:30 [fjh]
zakim, mute me
14:39:30 [Zakim]
fjh should now be muted
14:39:32 [abraun]
there are always places in North America. I can think of one place with lots of hotels ;)
14:39:41 [ArtB]
DR: not from OMTP's side
14:39:52 [ArtB]
MC: that's OK with Opera
14:39:59 [ArtB]
AB: anyone else
14:40:10 [ArtB]
AB: it looks like June 9-11 then is best
14:40:29 [ArtB]
AB: any comments about the location?
14:40:30 [timeless]
abraun: there's already SJ later in the year
14:40:36 [timeless]
so i think the us is out for this meeting
14:40:54 [ArtB]
DR: We are happy to cede with Dan's offer to host in London
14:41:16 [ArtB]
... I think London is probably the most cost effective
14:41:32 [ArtB]
JS: housing in London can be very expensive
14:41:44 [ArtB]
... I assume Edinburgh would be cheaper
14:41:55 [ArtB]
... I expect to pay for this trip out of my own pocket
14:42:13 [fjh]
14:42:36 [ArtB]
Arve: lodging in London is not cheaper than Oslo
14:43:10 [ArtB]
DR: London is an inexpensive hub to get to
14:43:25 [ArtB]
... i think airfare costs will dominate the overall cost of travel
14:43:34 [ArtB]
MC: we can live with London
14:43:41 [ArtB]
... but want to host the next meeting
14:44:47 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments?
14:44:57 [ArtB]
JS: I need to check another calendar
14:45:08 [ArtB]
AB: I will make a decision in a week or so
14:45:28 [ArtB]
AB: the leading candidate is London June 9-11
14:45:38 [ArtB]
JS: I just checked, no conflicts that week
14:45:46 [ArtB]
Topic: TPAC meeting in November
14:45:55 [ArtB]
AB: Charles asked everyone to submit comments about the W3C's proposed TPAC meeting in November
14:46:01 [ArtB]
... see <>
14:46:06 [ArtB]
... I think the general consensus is: a) it's too early to make a firm commitment; b) we support the idea of an all-WG meeting; c) if there are sufficient topics to discuss then we should meet that week.
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... Does that seem like a fair characterization? Does anyone have any other comments?
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14:47:02 [Marcos]
14:47:06 [arve]
did everyone, or just us get dropped from the call?
14:47:18 [timeless]
just you
14:47:18 [arve]
our call appears to be up, but we can't hear
14:47:22 [ArtB]
AB: Charles and I need to report to the Team by the end of next week
14:47:37 [fjh]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:37 [Zakim]
fjh should no longer be muted
14:47:42 [fjh]
14:47:47 [ArtB]
AB: again that November TPAC meetingn is in Silicon Valley
14:47:52 [Zakim]
14:48:17 [ArtB]
JS: if Moz has a meeting I can piggy-back then that would increase my probability of attending
14:48:19 [Zakim]
14:48:34 [ArtB]
FH: we are tentatively meeting that week Wend to Friday
14:49:13 [ArtB]
AB: I think the most we can report to the Team is "Yes, we tenatively have agreement to meet during TPAC"
14:49:35 [ArtB]
Topic: Window Modes
14:49:49 [Marcos]
14:50:21 [ArtB]
AB: this is Excellent Marcos!
14:50:28 [fjh]
s/we are tentatively meeting that week Wend to Friday/XML Security is tentatively planning to meet at TPAC on Thursday Friday, so to avoid overlap can Widgets meet Mon and Tue
14:50:36 [ArtB]
MC: give the credit to Arve :)
14:51:03 [ArtB]
AB: so this captures last week's strawman?
14:51:12 [ArtB]
MC: yes
14:51:22 [ArtB]
Arve: it also includes some interfaces
14:51:39 [ArtB]
MC: the APIs will be moved to the A&E spec
14:51:52 [ArtB]
... it will only contain the defn of the modes and the Media Queries
14:51:58 [ArtB]
Present+ Benoit
14:52:03 [ArtB]
BS: this is a good start
14:52:18 [ArtB]
AB: anything else on this topic Marcos?
14:52:46 [ArtB]
MC: we will work on this over the next few weeks and get it ready for a FPWD
14:52:59 [ArtB]
AB: so a FPWD in the beginning of April?
14:53:03 [ArtB]
MC: yes, that would be ideal
14:53:04 [MoZ]
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Topic: Editorial Tasks
14:54:10 [ArtB]
DR: I asked OMTP members if they can contribute
14:54:18 [ArtB]
... we have an offer from Bryan and ATT
14:54:27 [ArtB]
... they want to know specifics
14:54:54 [ArtB]
AB: that's a good idea
14:55:07 [ArtB]
... I want to first talk to the editors
14:55:25 [ArtB]
DR: OK. I will also see if I can get more support
14:55:47 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments on this topic?
14:56:07 [ArtB]
Topic: Anything Else
14:56:28 [ArtB]
DR: I just responded to Art's BONDI Release Candidate e-mail
14:56:42 [ArtB]
... we have extended the comment period to March 23
14:56:51 [ArtB]
... the comments should all be public
14:57:32 [ArtB]
JS: I tried to submit feedback and I ran into problems with OMTP's web site
14:57:48 [ArtB]
... it would be really good if the comments could be sent to a mail list
14:57:59 [ArtB]
DR: if you send me the comments that would be good
14:58:05 [ArtB]
JS: OK; will do but not this week
14:58:54 [ArtB]
AB: is the URI of the public comment archive available?
14:59:05 [ArtB]
DR: yes Nick sent it to public-webapps
14:59:26 [ArtB]
DR: depending on the comments we will determine our next step
14:59:36 [ArtB]
... the next OMTP meeting is the following week
14:59:44 [ArtB]
AB: thanks for the update David
14:59:49 [ArtB]
AB: anythign else?
14:59:55 [ArtB]
AB: Meeting Adjourned
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15:00:01 [Zakim]
15:00:02 [Zakim]
- +45.29.aabb
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15:00:03 [Zakim]
15:00:07 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
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15:00:58 [JereK]
JereK has left #wam
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IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Art_Barstow, fjh, Josh_Soref, Jere, +47.23.69.aaaa, David, Arve/Marcos, +45.29.aabb
15:03:10 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
15:03:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:03:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Barstow ask Mark to provide more information about the real threat scenario re Issue #83 [1]
15:03:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in